#everyone should go into their blog options & click it immediately btw

[imaginaryanon]

[sees post bitching about staff rolling sth out without announcing it]

[next post on the dash is literally. staff's announcement about the thing.]

[spectrumscribe]

Could you write a piece about what the hell were Casey and Shini doing during "When Worlds Collide"? I looked for fanfiction about it for some comic relief (yes, I have no life) and didn't find any. Btw, I love your blog! :)

you know, i’d been meaning to do something like this anyways. kudos to you anon for reading my mind.

In the middle of locking down the whole compound,Shinigami’s phone rings.

It could be Karai, finallysummoning them all to battle instead of leaving them all here twiddling theirthumbs- so she answers it immediately.

It’s not Karai.

“Hey, so. The world’skind of ending for the fifth time or something,” Says a teenage boy overthe line; the one that clings to the turtles and April like a stubborn bramble,despite obviously lacking any formal training.

“I hadn’t noticed,” Shini replies dryly, burying her thrumof worry underneath her persona. It’s not Karai on the phone, and thus herSenpai remains out of contact and unaccounted for. Worrying. “Why are youcalling, I would have thought you’d be throwing yourself into the fray alongwith the turtles.”

“In a sitch like this,kind of not my job.”

“No?”

“Nope.”

This doesn’t sound like something Casey Jones would do, fromwhat Shinigami has observed of him. He seemed like he’d be the sort to keepcharging into things until he either won or died, whichever came first.

“Why?” Shinigami asks, because even with all the chaoshappening around her and her heart clenching with fear about Karai being missing and in danger, her curiosity remains present as always.

“The brothers don’t reallygot people to worry about up here,” Casey Jones says tightly. The sound ofscreeching tires and muffled yelling momentarily takes over the phone line, andthen he adds, “-but me an’ April do.”

“…ah,” Shinigami says, garnering his situation.

“I have a van full of relativesand kind of in-laws, and not a whole lot of options for a hideout. Lair’s toofar and- FUCK,” Tires scream even louder, and Shinigami thinks she hearssomething go thoom, followed by anexplosion. “Okay long story short I need aplace to crash before we literally crash!You got- you guys have basically a fortress, right? The bugs won’t be able toget inside?”

The flurry of evacuation, to lower levels, is stillhappening around Shinigami. Foot soldiers, technicians, and medical staff, allmoving into the sublevels of the church compound. As soon as everything vitaland everyone vital is down there,she’s going down herself, and they’re locking the reinforced doors behind them.No one will get in, or out, untilKarai calls to tell them the apocalypse is over.

Or, she doesn’t call at all, and then the decision of theirnext move will fall to Shinigami.

…they admittedly have room for a few more.

Shinigami has always prided herself on looking out for herfew trusted close ones, leaving everyone else to do what they will, and surviveif they can.

But, Casey Jones isa member of Karai’s extended half family… andhe helped save her Senpai, once or twice before.

Shinigami sighs. Debts are not something she is fond of.

“The bugs won’t be able to get inside, no,” Shinigami says, andthen adds without pause, “How soon will you be able to get here? We’re lockingdown as we speak.”

“Kind of already here,”Jones says, because of course hedoes. “Open your back door so we don’t all getabducted by FUCKING SPACE BUGS-”

The line cuts off. Shinigami doesn’t have to wonder why.

She sends a small squadron to retrieve Jones and his people.Let it never be said she didn’t do a kind thing, or leave a debt like thisunpaid.

–/–

Casey Jones is many things, and fears almost nothing.

But, because he’s an older brother, a son- he’s scaredshitless of losing the small family he’s got. Hence the calling of one personhe never thought he would.

He’ll thank Leo for pushing them to have all numbers of their social group,later. This might’ve saved his family’s life and Mr. O’Neil and Ms. O’Neil’stoo. Probably his as well, since he would’ve stood between them and any stupidalien bug who attacked them until he couldn’t anymore, and then would havestood longer.

As much as he hates being pulled back to defense, Caseysupposes he sees the purpose to it. Maybe he can’t blow things up with hismind, or hide a hundred and one ninja weapons on his person- but he can keep a promise, and he can face downa whole army for the sake of that promise.

Especially when it’s his little sister and dad standingbehind him, and the last two human relatives April’s got.

It still sucks royally,hiding in an underground laboratory while the world goes to shit. While hisfriends are off risking their lives for the millionth time, and he’s not thereto back them up.

His father isn’t making anything easier, questioning Caseyagain and again why they’re hiding in what resembles very strongly a supervillain’s lair, and currently surrounded by armed men and women who donothing to dispel that impression.

“Dad, please, don’t ask about- any of this,” Casey waves hishand at the stone walls and creepy lighting of what used to be Stockman’s lab.Fuck that guy, for real. “If you don’t know nothin’, then you have deniabilitystill.”

His dad’s eyebrows sink a little lower. Ah hell, that wouldbe the ‘I’m worried and angry right now’ expression. “Deniability?” His dad asks in a lowvoice. “Arnold Casey Jones, just what in god’sname did you get yourself mixed up in?!”

Casey winces at the full naming. Oh boy. “Now see, that’sthe part where you don’t ask and keep your deniability…”

“Mr. Jones,” A smooth, sly voice interjects before Casey’sdad can work up another round. Shinigami’s heels click against the stone floor,cool gaze and a coy smile in place as she approaches. Casey sees his dad standstraighter, on guard, and notes that his thirteen year old sister watches theolder woman with interest. Well, can’t fault his sister for her taste.Shinigami is about as beautiful as she is deadly. Which is very.

“Your son assisted us… in saving the life of a very dearperson to me, not more than a few months ago,” Shinigami says, and Casey knowsthat’s not entirely a lie. “Myself and that person gave him a single favor touse as he needed, in exchange for that assistance. He was simply in the rightplace, at the right time, and we’ve hardly interacted since.”

“So… you’re saying my kid saved someone you’re close to, butyou didn’t drag him into any of…” Casey’s dad glances around at the Footsoldiers milling around, clearly uncomfortable. His hand on Casey’s littlesister, placed around her shoulders and keeping her close, makes that evenclearer. “…this?”

“No,” Shinigami says, still smiling. Casey only vaguelyknows her through their mutual social group, but it’s still enough that he canspot the subtle, but purposeful beguiling. “Your son has only been someone wemet with… very, very rarely. He has never been involved with the clan’sbusiness.”

Kind of a lie? Casey doesn’t mind, though. Anything to keephis dad from prying further, and possibly finding out about the shit ton of really dangerous stuff he’s beeninvolved with. Or finding out his friends, and his situation with them.

Casey’s dad examines Shinigami for a moment longer, and thennods once.  He’s probably decided to notlook a gift horse in the mouth, at least until they get home and he’s got Caseycornered for questioning. Won’t that be fun.

“Thank you for saving us,” He says, and Casey knows it’ssincere despite the gruff tone. His eyes go to Casey’s sister, same time as hisdo. They’re both probably thinking the same thing. “I don’t know what we wouldhave done otherwise.”

Shinigami smiles a little wider; kind, but mysterious. “It’sno trouble, simply repaying a debt. Now, if you would please follow one of myattendants, they’ll take you to a place you can rest until this whole- invasionnonsense is over…”

Shinigami works her magic, (possibly literally?), and hasher Foot soldiers lead Casey’s family away. He lingers, because he’s gotsomething to say, and because he really doesn’t want to hold still long enoughfor his dad to potentially start asking questions again.

“Hey, Shinigami?” He asks, getting the woman to turn hereyes to him. He meets them evenly, because he’s gotten kind of used to beingaround people with subtly dangerous gazes. “Thank you, really. I… it’s my jobto take care of our families when everything goes to shit, and I don’t want tothink about how this could’ve gone down without you lettin’ us in. So. Thankyou.”

Shinigami looks at him for a long moment, and then smilesone of her more unreadable expressions. “Like I said, Jones, it is simplyrepaying a debt. For all the times you saved my Senpai.”

–/–

Hour four drags by, and Shinigami fights with herself aboutgoing after her dearest Karai.

The news channels have all gone down, and only shaky videostaken and posted from cameras remain to relay the situation aboveground. Fromthe looks of things, it’s not going well.

Her scythes weigh heavy on her hips, begging for use andurging her to slip away to search for Karai. Damn the Foot clan- the onlyreason she ever joined was to be by her Senpai’s side. There’s nothing holdingher here except for Karai’s wish that should the worst happen… Shinigami is tocontinue the Foot on its current course, until she finds a suitable heir.

Shinigami doesn’t want to lead the Foot, or find an heir.She wants to be by Karai’s side, protecting her back.

Her fingers trace the very edges of her blades, not drawingthem but unable to keep her hands off them completely. There’s no tellingwhat’s going on with her Senpai at the moment. She could be in danger, shecould be injured, she could be…

The phones won’t connect anymore, not because they’reunderground, but because Karai’s phone seems to have turned itself off. And theturtles’ and April’s…

All of those phones, turned off at such a dire time? All atonce? It’s suspicious, and worrying.

Shinigami is barely holding herself within the safe zone ofthe church. It’s all she can do to not let panic and passion seize her, andsend her running through the chaos stricken streets to find Karai.

“Got the battle-itches?”

Shinigami is caught pf guard by the absurdity of thatsentence, enough that she actually stutters internally. She turns, to findJones leaning on a hockey stick, looking as drawn and frustrated as Shinigamifeels.

“Excuse me?” Shinigami asks. In all her years, that’s a new one for a man to try withher.

“You wanna be up there too, am I right?” He clarifies,nodding vaguely upwards. “I get that feel. This is drivin’ me nuts.”

Shinigami considers him for a moment; the extended hand ofunderstanding and sympathy.

She takes it.

“I… worry for Karai’s safety,” Shinigami admits under herbreath, wary of passing soldiers hearing her concern. Their leader must beunbeatable, unbreakable; she can’t be seen as anything else, no matter how muchShinigami fears for her dear Karai.

Jones rubs his face, sighing harshly. “Yeah, I figured you’dbe. I’m worrin’ about the brothers and April, personally speaking. But they goteach other, all seven of ‘em and whoever else they dragged into things.They’ll… they’ll be fine.”

“You say that, but you don’t look like you believe it,”Shinigami points out softly.

Jones smiles crookedly, more of a grimace, and then laughs.“What? Nah. Not me. They always come through, no matter what. It’s just the waiting that gets to me, you know? I’mnot made to just sit around when there’s ass to kick. They need Casey Jones outthere with ‘em, backing them all up and taking point. Or something like that.”

Shinigami thinks for a moment, and then says, “I should beup there with Karai, protecting her back and taking her right flank. Notsitting here and waiting around like some abandoned sentinel.” She smileswryly. “Or something like that.”

Jones laughs, a sort of startled sound. He seems to relax alittle, out of the wary stance and gait he’s been carrying since the moment heset foot inside Shinigami’s realm of rule. It’s understandable, since theirfriends and loved ones are likely in mortal peril, and this is far from part ofhis territory.

A moment of silence passes, the two of them standing in theentrance to Stockman’s old laboratory. It’s not as awkward or strange likeShinigami might’ve guessed it would be. There’s something to mutual understanding,after all.

A low volume siren suddenly goes off, and Shinigami’s menand women start rushing around. Within seconds, a Foot soldier approachesShinigami, and relays that bugs have breached the upper levels. From what theirsmall team of scientists can discern, the aliens are able to tell there are alarge number of humans below ground, and are looking to break through thedoors.

Shinigami glances at Jones.

He’s already grinning, more so baring his teeth inchallenge.

Shinigami snaps her fingers, and gives the order to engagewith utmost caution. And to get the hell out of their way.

They’ve waited around long enough. Now, they fight.

–/–

When all is said and done, and bug aliens start falling deadwithout Casey hardly tapping them, he figures things could’ve been a lot worsethan they turned out.

Sure, New York is pretty much coated in a layer of slime andguts, but they won and everyone is mostly safe. He knows not everyone was aslucky as his dad and sister, or April’s father and aunt, but hey. He got hisown people to safety, and then he keptthem safe.

It’s enough for him. Infinitely better than the alternative.

He will never, everleave them behind again. Not even if the world starts falling apart under hisfeet a second time, he won’t.

He refuses to go through that again.

Shinigami somehow has barely a hair out of place, despitebeing right on the frontlines with him as they drove out the bugs from thechurch. Casey sees the angle of liking a lady like this, the sort that’suntouchable by anything around her. But, personally speaking, he still digs theblood streaked, messy haired, dirt smeared red-head type more.

He’s a little biased, but everyone knows that.

As he ushers his dad, sis, and the O’Neil’s into the PartyWagon, he’s a little surprised to see Shinigami seeing them off. He waits untilshe approaches, and then waits further to hear what she’s got to say.

“If you see Senpai before me…” Shinigami’s mask of aloofnessbreaks for a moment, exposing genuine emotions. “Please remind her to call. Andtell her the Foot remains as she left it, and that…” She mends the cracks, andthen they’re gone. “And that’s it. I apologize, I am a little tired.”

Casey jerks a nod. He gets it without having to ask at all.Being separated from the people really important to you sucks, and it’s not aneasy thing to admit aloud.

He sticks out a hand. “I’ll make sure she calls you, if shehasn’t already by the time I meet up with everyone else. I’ll find ‘em soon asI drop my folks and April’s off, okay?”

Shinigami blinks at his hand, and then slowly takes it. Sheshakes once, and then they let go.

“I wish you and yours good luck, and I hope no serious harmhas come to your dear ones,” Shinigami says, and for once, Casey’s pretty sureevery word is real.

“Yeah, same to you. See you around.”

Shinigami is back to being unreadable and masked by the timehe starts to leave, and gives only an enigmatic smile.

He gets in the Party Wagon, and starts weaving through thedisaster zone New York has become once again. His father and sister sit tenselybeside him, watching the damage go by with cautious eyes. April’s aunt sits inthe back, trying to help Kirby keep calm as they navigate the fresh trauma intheir lives. Casey feels kind of badly for all of them; they’re not as adjustedor familiar with insanity as he is, or as ready to embrace it.

He gets them home safely though, and promises to come rightback as soon as he has April and his friends again. His father gives him adeeply concerned look, but lets him go. Kirby who knows how his daughter and their friends are mixed up in this, justgives him a pale, but thankful smile.

His little sister grabs him before he runs out the door, anddrags him into as bone crushing a hug as her thin arms can manage.

“Don’t be an idiot,” She whispers in his ear. “and come homesoon, okay?”

He squeezes her back, tight. He could’ve lost her a lot oftimes over the years, and he hasn’t refused a hug since the first time. “I’llbe back before you even miss me.”

Walking away from his family is hard, because the sense ofdanger isn’t quite gone yet, but he manages it because he still has people tofind.

His phone finally lights up, as he’s circling the worstimpact zones, and he answers it immediately.

“You son of a fuck,” He says into the phone. “None of you could’ve kept your fuckin’phones on?”

“Sorry, electricalinterference scrambled the signals,” Donnie says, sounding tired andachingly relieved. “Newtralizer cameback, able to teleport of all things,and yeah, that screwed up every single cell tower in the area.”

“How so?”

“Fuck if I know. I’mtired and I’m just trying to get over the fact that yet another of my brothers has died and come back tolife within minutes of each event.”

“Oof,” Casey winces with a grimace. “Which one?”

“Mikey,” Donniereplies flatly. Casey winces again, because yikes.

“He okay?”

“He’s-” Donniesighs. “He’s naked for whatever reason, and breathing, and apparently okay despiteblowing himself up? God I don’t know. I have to do a proper examination later.Anyways. We’re on a rooftop in the middle of day, and the air force is doingcircles nearby. Please come get us before we have to break out of a lab again.” A pause, and then he adds. “I’m really glad you’re okay, by the way.Did you get to somewhere safe with yours and April’s families?”

“Shinigami let us into the church, it was real nice of her,”Casey says. “And I’m glad you’re okay, too. I’m glad all of you guys are okay.How’s April?”

“I think she has thethird highest kill count for bugs today, but only on the account of Y'Gythgbadecapitating anything that got within ten feet of her, and Mikey and hissuicide bomb act. I’d say she’ll be fine after a good shower and some food. Samewith all of us, honestly.”

“I could eat,” Casey turns the steering wheel, avoiding asizable pothole. “Hey, location?”

Donnie rattles off the address, and Casey breaks a fewdriving laws to make it there in less than ten minutes. They shoot shit on andoff as Casey drives over cracked roads and obliterated sidewalks, minding bug corpses strewn about and leftover goop stuff.

“I think I’m going tohave to hold him down until the shock wears off- he won’t stop bouncingaround, Casey.”

“Yeah, Mike’s a little shaky on the whole self-preservationthing.”

“None of my brothersunderstand basic first-aid protocols. And like you have any leg to stand on,adrenaline junkie.”

“You’re just a worry-wart, nothin’ can kill Casey Jones.”

“Sure. I’ll makecertain that’s carved on your tombstone.”

Casey laughs, feeling light, and he draws a chuckle out ofDonnie as he does.

Seeing Donnie, April, and all the rest (plus Y’Gythgba,because she’s sticking around apparently) clamber off the roof is a comfortingsight. No one is limping more than worth worrying, no one has cuts beyond aband-aid level, and they’re all accounted for.

Raph is grinning, with a black eye and an arm around Mikey’sshoulders, who is beaming at everyone around him and still very naked. Leo is walkingwith Karai, and Y’Gygthba, and none of those three look any worse for wearbeyond alien guck caked to them. Donnie has what looks like alien bloodsplattered all over him, same as April, and everyone else. April’s eyes arebright though, alert and high on victory as she smiles at Casey, and thoughDonnie looks tired as he usually does, he gives a weary smile as they allapproach.

It’s the best damn sight Casey’s seen all day.

Casey grins, and salutes lazily as his second family and co.gets into the van. Safe and sound, and where he can watch their backs again.

–/–

When Karai slips in through the window of the church,Shinigami feels her whole body relax.

Her Senpai smiles, wide and confident despite the filth andlight injuries all over her. Shinigami can’t help but smile back, warm to hertoes with relief.

The throne room is crossed in a blink of an eye, and thenKarai is warm and safe in Shinigami’s arms. Curling around Karai, in a brief moment of care beforeanyone sees, solves everything that had been snarling itself with worry in herchest.

“Welcome back,” Shinigami says softly, holding Karai closeas she can without hurting her.

Karai’s arms tighten around her neck, and she replies, “Gladto be back.”

When they break apart, Shinigami allows herself one lastindulgence to brush Karai’s messy bangs from her face. Her Senpai’s makeup isslightly smudged on the edges, and a blooming bruise graces her jaw. Well, thatwon’t do at all.

“Come,” Shinigami says, taking Karai’s hand and pulling hertowards the exit. “I have the medical staff, a bath, and dinner ready. You looklike you need all three.”

“That sounds wonderful,” Karai says, gratitude clear in hertone. As they walk briskly, her hand around Shinigami’s is tight, unrelenting,and so very alive.

It’s more of a relief than anything could be.

AN: it would have been really fuckin simple for the writers of TMNT to add a phone call cameo somewhere in the episode, or off-hand mention that Casey and Shini are the ones who hold down the fort when things go south. literally so simple.

and by the way, if you feel like it, consider buying me a Ko-fi so i can keep busing to work and making you all fanfics. :)

[eelgibbortech-blog]

Is $5000 a lot to charge for a sales page? Here’s what people said.

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I spent the last 4 days writing a long-form sales page for one of our Copy Hackers programs.

At my day rate of $5000, that’s a $20,000 investment.

Given what a long-form sales page can do for revenue generation, $20K is money well-spent.

But not everyone would agree with that. Few would. And, to be honest, even yours truly would have a very, very hard time paying a freelance copywriter $20,000 to write a sales page. I’d need… well, we’re gonna get into what people like moi would need in order to pony up what is effectively a quarter of the average marketer’s annual salary.

But forget $20,000, which is a lot for almost anyone to pay for a single deliverable.

What about a $5000 invoice?

Is $5000 a lot to charge – or to pay – for a sales page?

I decided to ask a few top marketers. Here’s what they revealed.

These are the 14 marketers we asked

We reached out to some of the thought-leaders, marketers and general powerhouses growing today’s coolest (and most profitable [read: they can afford $5K invoices]) businesses online.

Among the handful of questions we asked them was this one:

If a freelance copywriter quoted you $5000 to write a sales page, what do you think your reaction would be?

Although two declined to answer (because the question was optional), the other 12 reacted like so:

You’re probably not terribly surprised by those reactions. As you’d expect, there’s no consensus. There’s no certainty. There’s no definitive takeaway – no sense that, yes, freelance copywriters can always safely charge $5000 or, no, you never should.

The surface reactions aren’t the point.

The stuff BEHIND those reactions – that’s the point.

That’s why we dug into why these marketers reacted as they did. If you’re trying to get prospective clients to sign off on projects like $5000 sales pages, listen closely to what they told us. And see what you can do to put yourself in a better negotiating position.

What does “$5000 is too expensive” really mean?

Surprise! Most people aren’t in the top 1% of expertise in their field.

Bigger surprise! Most copywriters aren’t in the top 1% of expertise in their field.

Biggest surprise! Marketers and founders are wise to the random guesswork that happens too often in the copywriting world.

When I’m talking with marketers about how they hire freelance copywriters, a strong distrust of the freelancer’s skills comes through time and again. After all, there’s no reliable third-party stamp of approval for copywriters. No degree in copywriting. No peer-reviewed portfolios. So until clients see proven, measured results, they don’t really believe that their new freelance copywriter knows how to, well, write copy.

(And even when the results are present, there’s still this strange sense that, somehow, it’s a fluke.)

Perhaps the biggest reason for this distrust is this:

There are just far too many people calling themselves copywriters.

Check out how many freelance copywriters are listed on one of the most popular spaces for finding freelancers, Upwork:

And how many of those copywriters have data or proof that they’re actually skilled at the job?

When you refine your search for job success (a form of proof), you see this:

So 2000+ freelance copywriters have “experience” getting the job done right.

Which doesn’t help a prospective client make a decision.

Because there’s still no PROOF that you can do what the client needs doing. Job success is not synonymous with proven results.

For a top marketer to pay you $5000 for a sales page project sans sticker shock, one of two things needs to be true.

You either need to have a great portfolio of results. Or you need to do pay-for-performance – as in, you get paid after the page performs well.

A few of the marketers who were NOT in a rush to invest $5K in sales page copy said they needed proof + results:

“It better make me at least 2x that amount or at least exponentially more than it was making before. If it does the job, I’m happy to pay it.” – Nadya Kohja

“Ouch! Unless I know they’re great.” – Oli Gardner

“You better be damn good at what you do! ROI matters more than cost, so you better be able to produce ROI at that cost.” – Barrett Brooks

Clearly your prospects need to KNOW that you’re gonna do great work. They can’t take on all the risk in hiring you; they need to feel confident that their investment will bring a return of, as Nadya said, at least 2x. I’d push that 2x further to something like 10x. Why? Because most people considering proposals for a page think exactly like Peep describes here:

“Some freelancers will quote 2k, 3k – and that’s the hard part: it’s often VERY difficult to see how the 5k quote would deliver a better result. As they say, if I can’t tell the difference, why pay more?” – Peep Laja

You’ve gotta answer this question: “Why should a client pay more for me than for the next freelance copywriter?”

Your results need to justify your rate. Period.

Your clients need to believe they’re going to get a 10x return on their investment. Period.

Of course, you don’t know how your page will perform until you put it out there. And that’s where pay for performance can be an appealing option for you and your prospective client. But let me be honest: P4P is super-tricky. I wouldn’t rush into it. And even clients who perk up at the idea of it lose interest when they realize how much work it’ll be to track it – to say nothing of the % of their revenues they’ll be sending your way.

Instead of pay for performance, bring a strong portfolio of results to those early convos with your prospects. Results sound tricky to collect. In fact, they are not. There’s data about your work all over the place –  you just need to go grab it. Quickly assembling a list of your results over the course of, say, the last 6 months is actually pretty easy, and it doesn’t require that you start participating in complex A/B tests or funnel optimizations.

WHAT YOU CAN DO: Start measuring your work immediately so you can reduce the risk for your clients and charge more. A few ideas for you:

Start asking for the before-and-after data (for traffic, conversions, etc) for the landing pages / websites you write for clients

Grab open and click rates from MailChimp, ConvertKit or whatever platform you and your clients use to send the emails you write

Set aside time each week to track week-over-week increases in shares, comments, traffic and more for the blog and social posts you’re responsible for writing

Run your own Facebook ad tests for your business

Run your own A/B tests for your landing pages inside Unbounce or your page platform

BTW, showing results is not optional.

No one would hire an SEO who couldn’t point to the traffic growth s/he had generated for clients. No one would hire a CRO consultancy without first reviewing highly persuasive, data-rich case studies. Possibly the only role that does get hired sans numbers is the role of the designer – but even that’s changing as marketers abandon gut reactions in favour of hard numbers.

Those who think $5000 is doable expect the same things as those who think it’s not: strong data going in, and strong ROI going out

Sorry, punkin, but there’s no escaping it: businesses dig numbers.

CFOs love numbers. They obsess over numbers like it’s their job.

Your skill with words will only get you so far as a freelance copywriter. Ultimately, you’re hired for the numbers, not the words. Here’s proof that measurable performance is everything when choosing a copywriter:

“Does this writer have evidence to support their claim that the copy will perform well? If yes, I’m ready to sign the quote. If it ranks and converts, $5K would be a bargain. ” – Andy Crestodina

“The biggest challenge would be to make the investment without knowing how the page would ultimately perform.” – Nate Turner

And let’s not forget the one marketer who said $5000 is too low

Lars Lofgren is the Senior Director of Growth at IWT. Unlike a lot of tech businesses and agencies, IWT uses long-form sales pages heavily – they’ve got a big ol’ team of copywriters – so Lars knows full well the power of a high-converting sales page. When I asked him the $5000 question, he said:

“If someone told me their salespage would cost $5000, I’d assume it would actually cause damage to the brand and not generate any tangible revenue. It’s going to hurt more than it helps.”

I couldn’t agree more.

When copywriters quote me $3000 to $5000 for a sales page, I know I’m going to have to do a lot of work on it. And truth be told: I’ve never had a freelance copywriter quote higher than $5K for a long-form sales page.

Now here’s a question.

Why is Lars the only one who said $5000 is too low for a sales page?

Is he just terrible with money? Has he got nothing but cash to burn? …Or is it something else? Is it that he’s not only written sales pages himself but also overseen the creation of some of the most profitable sales pages in online marketing?

That no one else reacted like Lars reveals one of the bigger issues underlying resistance to a $5000 invoice for a sales page: Not a lot of marketers have SEEN what a killer long-form sales page can do for their business.

And even worse?

Not a lot of COPYWRITERS have seen it, either.

The reality is that a long-form sales page is a one-page funnel. Imagine optimizing your funnel for just $5000. If someone quoted you $5000 to optimize your funnel, you’d have the same reaction Lars had: it’s not gonna work. Yet somehow a long-form sales page – which moves prospects from TOFU through MOFU to BOFU – isn’t obviously worth AT LEAST $5000 to many people hiring freelance copywriters. Do I blame those marketers and think they should all turn into Lars as soon as possible? (I’m actually pausing as I consider my answer.) …No. We copywriters just need to do a much better job of:

Writing strong long copy and

Telling the world about when it works and when it doesn’t so that

More marketers can stop wasting money on low-yield initiatives when they really need to put their copywriting budget toward expensive but high-converting long-form sales pages.

All that said, how can you get more clients to recognize your value and pay you like a champ?

To justify solid rates for writing sales copy, copywriters need to connect their work directly to two things: lead generation and revenue generation.

We asked this group of marketers:

What was the business objective you were trying to solve for when you recently hired a freelancer?

All answers fell into one of these 3 categories:

We wanted to generate more revenue

We wanted to generate more leads

We wanted someone to execute

The third category shows that, in some cases, businesses just want to hire you to do the execution work of writing copy. Four of the marketers we talked to simply wanted a freelance copywriter to execute without a direct success metric; for example, one freelance copywriter was hired to remove the jargon from a landing page.

But ten of the 14 marketers hired a copywriter for an outcome directly tied to growth: revenue or leads.

Nobody said they hired a freelancer to build their brand. Or to revamp their voice. Or to generate creative concepts. That doesn’t mean that other marketers on the planet won’t be looking for the creative side of copywriting… but 14 out of 14 marketers (in high-growth, profitable businesses, with a history of hiring copywriters) said absolutely nothing whatsoever about hiring a copywriter for creativity.

Get inside your prospect’s head! You know what they want. Now use their words in YOUR copy…

So you know you need results to woo clients.

But what else can you do, say and share to tip the scales in your favour?

You can use what marketers want and don’t want to write more persuasive sales copy for your services.

And what follows can help you with alluhthat…

So if you’re writing a sales page to sell your email copywriting services… or drumming up testimonials and wondering what to ask your past clients to focus on… or putting together a proposal and trying to figure out what to say under “About Me,” you should use the words your prospects would use / have used. Because you’re a copywriter. And that’s what copywriters do.

We asked these 14 marketers how they’d describe their ideal freelance copywriter. These are the words and phrases they used, in alphabetical order:

Aware

Brings a process

Data-driven

Disciplined

Fluid

Has courage

Empathic

Intelligent

Nimble

Perceptive

Proactive

Shows initiative

Specialist

Subject matter expert

Succinct

Takes ownership

And a few more insights into what clients want when they’re hiring freelance copywriters:

“A “dual-threat” SEO/conversion copywriter!” – Andy Crestodina

“Someone who ‘goes deep.’” – Nathalie Lussier

“In the past when I was looking for some help increasing conversions on a pricing page, I was looking for the best pricing page copywriter there was, and my search queries followed suit. So my ideal copywriter knows who they are, their strengths, and as a result, knows how they can help me better than everyone else.” – John Bonini

“Committed to staying a freelancer, able to write in multiple “voices”, good on the phone so I can trust them to call clients.” – Dana DiTomaso

And while you’re at it, overcome their biggest objections when you’re pitching

If you’re wondering why your prospective clients are skeptical about your value, chances are insanely good that they’ve been burned before.

Here are some of the frustrations these marketers have felt when working with copywriters. They may be the very same frustrations your next client wants to avoid. So consider them all when writing copy for your freelance services and/or talking to your prospective client on the phone.

FRUSTRATION 1. It’s simply hard to tell the great freelance copywriters from the ones who talk a good game.

‘Member all that stuff above about results? Yup, lack of results / lack of expertise is the #1 frustration people have with copywriters.

Tara Robertson, head of agency partnerships at Sprout Social, put it this way:

“Copy tends to be the hardest function to outsource for multiple reasons. For one, while loads of freelancers state they are ‘data driven writers,’ my experience has been more so that finding writers who are also great marketers is generally very hard to come by. Couple that with the need to learn a potentially new niche, product, or industry, as well as find your brand’s tone, really means you’re looking for a unicorn.

“There aren’t a lot of people in the world that truly “get it,” which is why this process can be both hard and cumbersome. I look at my outsourced team the same way I do as my internal team, and therefore it’s almost more important that your freelancer is able to deliver quality work as they’ll already be working at a disadvantage (less internal training, ramping time, etc).”

Nadya Khoja, Head of Marketing at Venngage, said:

“It’s hard to find someone who not only knows how to write well, but to write in a way that engages audiences. Naturally this can be said for any job or industry, but many people looking for a job tend to over promise and under deliver. When people claim to be a “writer” and we take a look at the copy written, it’s either overly academic, or poorly written in general.”

Nate Turner of Sprout Social said:

“[The most frustrating thing is finding] the right expertise and fit. There are plenty of resources available to source freelancers but it usually takes more time and effort to find people that have some expertise in your industry and can fit your objectives/tone/style.”

And Andy Crestodina of Orbit Media said it like so:

“[The most frustrating thing is] finding someone who can back up their recommendations with data.”

Your portfolio can help showcase your expertise. So can a case study cleverly disguised as a blog post (and shared in multiple places, not just on your blog). But be careful not to rely only on showing your expertise! Most people have no idea what goes into the work you do to create high-converting copy. So take the time to talk about and describe your process. Do as your math teacher said in elementary school: show your work. Don’t let your client guess at your expertise… ‘cos they might just dramatically underestimate you.

FRUSTRATION 2. The learning curve with new freelancers can be too much.

Your competition isn’t necessarily another freelancer. When your prospective client is considering you, she may also be considering simply training someone in-house to write the copy. Or getting her niece the English major to do it. It’s not that she thinks anyone can do your job; it may simply be that she doesn’t want to deal with the hassle of training a person who may not even be a great copywriter (see #1 above). Think about everything you need to know deeply as a copywriter:

The market

Market segments

Specific personas and/or jobs to be done

The product / service

The company vision

The brand voice

The marketing ecosystem – how X plays with Y

Editorial standards

Where to find enablement stuff, like testimonials and research

Creation and iteration processes

Oh, and you’ll have to be introduced to the team and integrated into it. You’ll need to use the right meeting tools… get added to specific Slack channels and kept out of other channels… get added to the right Trello board… not get in the way… know when to get in the way…

All that for a sales page?

John Bonini of Databox breaks down his experience onboarding freelance copywriters like this:

“You’ll spend a good deal of time chopping the wood with a copywriter in order to get them up the learning curve as quickly as possible… Everyone sees the output of a copywriter, but what they don’t see is everything that goes into defining the market, understanding the customer, and solving then real challenges businesses are facing.

“For example, improving plan mix for a SaaS company isn’t just about making the premium plan sound better – it’s more about understanding the motivations of their current buyer, the aspirations of the buyers they don’t yet have, and how to best position their plans to influence both.”

And Laura Roeder of MeetEdgar said that the learning curve is one of the hardest parts of working with a freelancer:

“When you’re working with someone for the first time, there’s so much to learn about each other’s needs. A lot of the time, it’s easier to work with someone you’ve worked with in the past and with whom you already have even a little bit of a professional rapport. Working with someone new can be great, but even in a best-case scenario, there’s a learning process involved!”

If you have reason to believe that the client you want to land is worried about the learning curve, what could you message in your copy? Do you have a unique system for integrating yourself into their world? Do you offer incentives for repeat work, given that the hard learning-curve stuff is out of the way after the first few jobs?

FRUSTRATION 3. The freelance copywriter is not hardcore.

The really, really good clients you want are the ones who 100% respect the work copywriters do. They don’t think you’re a wordsmith, and they don’t think they could do your job if only they had more time. They are hiring copywriters because they value copywriters. They have actual line items in their budget for “Freelance conversion copywriter.”

These hiring managers want someone who cares at least as much about the art + science of copywriting as they do.

No, scratch that. They insist that you care 100x more than they do.

As in, they need you to be hardcore. 

Lars Lofgren explains well his frustration with hiring non-hardcore copywriters:

1) They don’t talk to customers. You know how hard it is to really get inside the mindset of a target market? You have to talk to HUNDREDS of people. Not surveys, not dumb Reddit threads and Amazon reviews, you have to actually talk to them and really dig deep. Great copywriters take every chance they can to talk to as many people as they possibly can. They feed off it. Most copywriters don’t and their copy is terrible. It’s just a collection of random copywriting templates they learned from the popular books.

2) They’re not willing to eat a giant dose of humble pie. You may have read all the books and collected a swipe file. Who cares? You haven’t even started yet. Until you’ve built funnels from scratch to six and seven figures by relentlessly failing and iterating until you finally succeed, pay very close attention to the folks that have. Most copywriters think they’re rockstars. Only a few are.

(Side note: Lars added that you can refer to surveys, reviews, etc. His frustration is when that’s ALL you look at – when you don’t actually immerse yourself in the head and heart of the customer.)

How can you prove you’re hardcore? If I were you, I wouldn’t start by being particularly subtle…

Finally here are some additional frustrations your prospective clients may have felt:

“[It’s hard to find] samples of their work in the right format.” – Oli Gardner

“It’s important that anyone I work with understand the mission of my blog.” – Nir Eyal

“The hardest part is finding someone who can understand my market, and also ramp up to the technical aspects of our software. I’ve hired from referrals, after seeing someone’s work in a Facebook group, and these have generally panned out… but it’s hard to tell how someone will write in a totally different market than their previous work.” – Nathalie Lussier

“It’s difficult to evaluate whether someone is a good fit for a particular gig.” – Peep Laja

“[It’s frustrating when a copywriter] checks the box to get the work done, but they don’t treat the work like I think they would if it were their own. In other words, the quality of output is often underwhelming.” – Barrett Brooks

Of all the takeaways, here’s perhaps the most interesting one, IMHO…

The people who were most enthusiastic about spending $5000 on a sales page had this in common: they’d written long-form sales pages before. They know how hard it is to write a great sales page. And they know how well a well-done sales page can perform.

Which means that if you can, in early conversations, get a sense for who on the client’s team has been doing the writing, you may be able to pull those people deeper into your conversations. And nudge them to share the challenges of writing this kind of copy. So the person making the hiring decision doesn’t rely on assumptions and her calculator when it comes to signing the proposal or not.

Now I gotta wonder…

…would you balk at a $5000 sales page?

What would you need to know about a copywriter before you’d agree to a $5000 invoice?

What’s the most you’ve paid for copy, and would you pay the same copywriter that amount again?

Featured image by: Bryan Apen

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Is $5000 a lot to charge for a sales page? We asked 14 marketers who hire freelancers. What they revealed could help you land your next project.

I spent the last 4 days writing a long-form sales page for one of our Copy Hackers programs.

At my day rate of $5000, that’s a $20,000 investment.

Given what a long-form sales page can do for revenue generation, $20K is money well-spent.

But not everyone would agree with that. Few would. And, to be honest, even yours truly would have a very, very hard time paying a freelance copywriter $20,000 to write a sales page. I’d need… well, we’re gonna get into what people like moi would need in order to pony up what is effectively a quarter of the average marketer’s annual salary.

But forget $20,000, which is a lot for almost anyone to pay for a single deliverable.

What about a $5000 invoice?

Is $5000 a lot to charge – or to pay – for a sales page?

I decided to ask a few top marketers. Here’s what they revealed.

These are the 14 marketers we asked

We reached out to some of the thought-leaders, marketers and general powerhouses growing today’s coolest (and most profitable [read: they can afford $5K invoices]) businesses online.

Among the handful of questions we asked them was this one:

If a freelance copywriter quoted you $5000 to write a sales page, what do you think your reaction would be?

Although two declined to answer (because the question was optional), the other 12 reacted like so:

You’re probably not terribly surprised by those reactions. As you’d expect, there’s no consensus. There’s no certainty. There’s no definitive takeaway – no sense that, yes, freelance copywriters can always safely charge $5000 or, no, you never should.

The surface reactions aren’t the point.

The stuff BEHIND those reactions – that’s the point.

That’s why we dug into why these marketers reacted as they did. If you’re trying to get prospective clients to sign off on projects like $5000 sales pages, listen closely to what they told us. And see what you can do to put yourself in a better negotiating position.

What does “$5000 is too expensive” really mean?

Surprise! Most people aren’t in the top 1% of expertise in their field.

Bigger surprise! Most copywriters aren’t in the top 1% of expertise in their field.

Biggest surprise! Marketers and founders are wise to the random guesswork that happens too often in the copywriting world.

When I’m talking with marketers about how they hire freelance copywriters, a strong distrust of the freelancer’s skills comes through time and again. After all, there’s no reliable third-party stamp of approval for copywriters. No degree in copywriting. No peer-reviewed portfolios. So until clients see proven, measured results, they don’t really believe that their new freelance copywriter knows how to, well, write copy.

(And even when the results are present, there’s still this strange sense that, somehow, it’s a fluke.)

Perhaps the biggest reason for this distrust is this:

There are just far too many people calling themselves copywriters.

Check out how many freelance copywriters are listed on one of the most popular spaces for finding freelancers, Upwork:

And how many of those copywriters have data or proof that they’re actually skilled at the job?

When you refine your search for job success (a form of proof), you see this:

So 2000+ freelance copywriters have “experience” getting the job done right.

Which doesn’t help a prospective client make a decision.

Because there’s still no PROOF that you can do what the client needs doing. Job success is not synonymous with proven results.

For a top marketer to pay you $5000 for a sales page project sans sticker shock, one of two things needs to be true.

You either need to have a great portfolio of results. Or you need to do pay-for-performance – as in, you get paid after the page performs well.

A few of the marketers who were NOT in a rush to invest $5K in sales page copy said they needed proof + results:

“It better make me at least 2x that amount or at least exponentially more than it was making before. If it does the job, I’m happy to pay it.” – Nadya Kohja

“Ouch! Unless I know they’re great.” – Oli Gardner

“You better be damn good at what you do! ROI matters more than cost, so you better be able to produce ROI at that cost.” – Barrett Brooks

Clearly your prospects need to KNOW that you’re gonna do great work. They can’t take on all the risk in hiring you; they need to feel confident that their investment will bring a return of, as Nadya said, at least 2x. I’d push that 2x further to something like 10x. Why? Because most people considering proposals for a page think exactly like Peep describes here:

“Some freelancers will quote 2k, 3k – and that’s the hard part: it’s often VERY difficult to see how the 5k quote would deliver a better result. As they say, if I can’t tell the difference, why pay more?” – Peep Laja

You’ve gotta answer this question: “Why should a client pay more for me than for the next freelance copywriter?”

Your results need to justify your rate. Period.

Your clients need to believe they’re going to get a 10x return on their investment. Period.

Of course, you don’t know how your page will perform until you put it out there. And that’s where pay for performance can be an appealing option for you and your prospective client. But let me be honest: P4P is super-tricky. I wouldn’t rush into it. And even clients who perk up at the idea of it lose interest when they realize how much work it’ll be to track it – to say nothing of the % of their revenues they’ll be sending your way.

Instead of pay for performance, bring a strong portfolio of results to those early convos with your prospects. Results sound tricky to collect. In fact, they are not. There’s data about your work all over the place –  you just need to go grab it. Quickly assembling a list of your results over the course of, say, the last 6 months is actually pretty easy, and it doesn’t require that you start participating in complex A/B tests or funnel optimizations.

WHAT YOU CAN DO: Start measuring your work immediately so you can reduce the risk for your clients and charge more. A few ideas for you:

Start asking for the before-and-after data (for traffic, conversions, etc) for the landing pages / websites you write for clients

Grab open and click rates from MailChimp, ConvertKit or whatever platform you and your clients use to send the emails you write

Set aside time each week to track week-over-week increases in shares, comments, traffic and more for the blog and social posts you’re responsible for writing

Run your own Facebook ad tests for your business

Run your own A/B tests for your landing pages inside Unbounce or your page platform

BTW, showing results is not optional.

No one would hire an SEO who couldn’t point to the traffic growth s/he had generated for clients. No one would hire a CRO consultancy without first reviewing highly persuasive, data-rich case studies. Possibly the only role that does get hired sans numbers is the role of the designer – but even that’s changing as marketers abandon gut reactions in favour of hard numbers.

Those who think $5000 is doable expect the same things as those who think it’s not: strong data going in, and strong ROI going out

Sorry, punkin, but there’s no escaping it: businesses dig numbers.

CFOs love numbers. They obsess over numbers like it’s their job.

Your skill with words will only get you so far as a freelance copywriter. Ultimately, you’re hired for the numbers, not the words. Here’s proof that measurable performance is everything when choosing a copywriter:

“Does this writer have evidence to support their claim that the copy will perform well? If yes, I’m ready to sign the quote. If it ranks and converts, $5K would be a bargain. ” – Andy Crestodina

“The biggest challenge would be to make the investment without knowing how the page would ultimately perform.” – Nate Turner

And let’s not forget the one marketer who said $5000 is too low

Lars Lofgren is the Senior Director of Growth at IWT. Unlike a lot of tech businesses and agencies, IWT uses long-form sales pages heavily – they’ve got a big ol’ team of copywriters – so Lars knows full well the power of a high-converting sales page. When I asked him the $5000 question, he said:

“If someone told me their salespage would cost $5000, I’d assume it would actually cause damage to the brand and not generate any tangible revenue. It’s going to hurt more than it helps.”

I couldn’t agree more.

When copywriters quote me $3000 to $5000 for a sales page, I know I’m going to have to do a lot of work on it. And truth be told: I’ve never had a freelance copywriter quote higher than $5K for a long-form sales page.

Now here’s a question.

Why is Lars the only one who said $5000 is too low for a sales page?

Is he just terrible with money? Has he got nothing but cash to burn? …Or is it something else? Is it that he’s not only written sales pages himself but also overseen the creation of some of the most profitable sales pages in online marketing?

That no one else reacted like Lars reveals one of the bigger issues underlying resistance to a $5000 invoice for a sales page: Not a lot of marketers have SEEN what a killer long-form sales page can do for their business.

And even worse?

Not a lot of COPYWRITERS have seen it, either.

The reality is that a long-form sales page is a one-page funnel. Imagine optimizing your funnel for just $5000. If someone quoted you $5000 to optimize your funnel, you’d have the same reaction Lars had: it’s not gonna work. Yet somehow a long-form sales page – which moves prospects from TOFU through MOFU to BOFU – isn’t obviously worth AT LEAST $5000 to many people hiring freelance copywriters. Do I blame those marketers and think they should all turn into Lars as soon as possible? (I’m actually pausing as I consider my answer.) …No. We copywriters just need to do a much better job of:

Writing strong long copy and

Telling the world about when it works and when it doesn’t so that

More marketers can stop wasting money on low-yield initiatives when they really need to put their copywriting budget toward expensive but high-converting long-form sales pages.

All that said, how can you get more clients to recognize your value and pay you like a champ?

To justify solid rates for writing sales copy, copywriters need to connect their work directly to two things: lead generation and revenue generation.

We asked this group of marketers:

What was the business objective you were trying to solve for when you recently hired a freelancer?

All answers fell into one of these 3 categories:

We wanted to generate more revenue

We wanted to generate more leads

We wanted someone to execute

The third category shows that, in some cases, businesses just want to hire you to do the execution work of writing copy. Four of the marketers we talked to simply wanted a freelance copywriter to execute without a direct success metric; for example, one freelance copywriter was hired to remove the jargon from a landing page.

But ten of the 14 marketers hired a copywriter for an outcome directly tied to growth: revenue or leads.

Nobody said they hired a freelancer to build their brand. Or to revamp their voice. Or to generate creative concepts. That doesn’t mean that other marketers on the planet won’t be looking for the creative side of copywriting… but 14 out of 14 marketers (in high-growth, profitable businesses, with a history of hiring copywriters) said absolutely nothing whatsoever about hiring a copywriter for creativity.

Get inside your prospect’s head! You know what they want. Now use their words in YOUR copy…

So you know you need results to woo clients.

But what else can you do, say and share to tip the scales in your favour?

You can use what marketers want and don’t want to write more persuasive sales copy for your services.

And what follows can help you with alluhthat…

So if you’re writing a sales page to sell your email copywriting services… or drumming up testimonials and wondering what to ask your past clients to focus on… or putting together a proposal and trying to figure out what to say under “About Me,” you should use the words your prospects would use / have used. Because you’re a copywriter. And that’s what copywriters do.

We asked these 14 marketers how they’d describe their ideal freelance copywriter. These are the words and phrases they used, in alphabetical order:

Aware

Brings a process

Data-driven

Disciplined

Fluid

Has courage

Empathic

Intelligent

Nimble

Perceptive

Proactive

Shows initiative

Specialist

Subject matter expert

Succinct

Takes ownership

And a few more insights into what clients want when they’re hiring freelance copywriters:

“A “dual-threat” SEO/conversion copywriter!” – Andy Crestodina

“Someone who ‘goes deep.'” – Nathalie Lussier

“In the past when I was looking for some help increasing conversions on a pricing page, I was looking for the best pricing page copywriter there was, and my search queries followed suit. So my ideal copywriter knows who they are, their strengths, and as a result, knows how they can help me better than everyone else.” – John Bonini

“Committed to staying a freelancer, able to write in multiple “voices”, good on the phone so I can trust them to call clients.” – Dana DiTomaso

And while you’re at it, overcome their biggest objections when you’re pitching

If you’re wondering why your prospective clients are skeptical about your value, chances are insanely good that they’ve been burned before.

Here are some of the frustrations these marketers have felt when working with copywriters. They may be the very same frustrations your next client wants to avoid. So consider them all when writing copy for your freelance services and/or talking to your prospective client on the phone.

FRUSTRATION 1. It’s simply hard to tell the great freelance copywriters from the ones who talk a good game.

‘Member all that stuff above about results? Yup, lack of results / lack of expertise is the #1 frustration people have with copywriters.

Tara Robertson, head of agency partnerships at Sprout Social, put it this way:

“Copy tends to be the hardest function to outsource for multiple reasons. For one, while loads of freelancers state they are ‘data driven writers,’ my experience has been more so that finding writers who are also great marketers is generally very hard to come by. Couple that with the need to learn a potentially new niche, product, or industry, as well as find your brand’s tone, really means you’re looking for a unicorn.

“There aren’t a lot of people in the world that truly “get it,” which is why this process can be both hard and cumbersome. I look at my outsourced team the same way I do as my internal team, and therefore it’s almost more important that your freelancer is able to deliver quality work as they’ll already be working at a disadvantage (less internal training, ramping time, etc).”

Nadya Khoja, Head of Marketing at Venngage, said:

“It’s hard to find someone who not only knows how to write well, but to write in a way that engages audiences. Naturally this can be said for any job or industry, but many people looking for a job tend to over promise and under deliver. When people claim to be a “writer” and we take a look at the copy written, it’s either overly academic, or poorly written in general.”

Nate Turner of Sprout Social said:

“[The most frustrating thing is finding] the right expertise and fit. There are plenty of resources available to source freelancers but it usually takes more time and effort to find people that have some expertise in your industry and can fit your objectives/tone/style.”

And Andy Crestodina of Orbit Media said it like so:

“[The most frustrating thing is] finding someone who can back up their recommendations with data.”

Your portfolio can help showcase your expertise. So can a case study cleverly disguised as a blog post (and shared in multiple places, not just on your blog). But be careful not to rely only on showing your expertise! Most people have no idea what goes into the work you do to create high-converting copy. So take the time to talk about and describe your process. Do as your math teacher said in elementary school: show your work. Don’t let your client guess at your expertise… ‘cos they might just dramatically underestimate you.

FRUSTRATION 2. The learning curve with new freelancers can be too much.

Your competition isn’t necessarily another freelancer. When your prospective client is considering you, she may also be considering simply training someone in-house to write the copy. Or getting her niece the English major to do it. It’s not that she thinks anyone can do your job; it may simply be that she doesn’t want to deal with the hassle of training a person who may not even be a great copywriter (see #1 above). Think about everything you need to know deeply as a copywriter:

The market

Market segments

Specific personas and/or jobs to be done

The product / service

The company vision

The brand voice

The marketing ecosystem – how X plays with Y

Editorial standards

Where to find enablement stuff, like testimonials and research

Creation and iteration processes

Oh, and you’ll have to be introduced to the team and integrated into it. You’ll need to use the right meeting tools… get added to specific Slack channels and kept out of other channels… get added to the right Trello board… not get in the way… know when to get in the way…

All that for a sales page?

John Bonini of Databox breaks down his experience onboarding freelance copywriters like this:

“You’ll spend a good deal of time chopping the wood with a copywriter in order to get them up the learning curve as quickly as possible… Everyone sees the output of a copywriter, but what they don’t see is everything that goes into defining the market, understanding the customer, and solving then real challenges businesses are facing.

“For example, improving plan mix for a SaaS company isn’t just about making the premium plan sound better – it’s more about understanding the motivations of their current buyer, the aspirations of the buyers they don’t yet have, and how to best position their plans to influence both.”

And Laura Roeder of MeetEdgar said that the learning curve is one of the hardest parts of working with a freelancer:

“When you’re working with someone for the first time, there’s so much to learn about each other’s needs. A lot of the time, it’s easier to work with someone you’ve worked with in the past and with whom you already have even a little bit of a professional rapport. Working with someone new can be great, but even in a best-case scenario, there’s a learning process involved!”

If you have reason to believe that the client you want to land is worried about the learning curve, what could you message in your copy? Do you have a unique system for integrating yourself into their world? Do you offer incentives for repeat work, given that the hard learning-curve stuff is out of the way after the first few jobs?

FRUSTRATION 3. The freelance copywriter is not hardcore.

The really, really good clients you want are the ones who 100% respect the work copywriters do. They don’t think you’re a wordsmith, and they don’t think they could do your job if only they had more time. They are hiring copywriters because they value copywriters. They have actual line items in their budget for “Freelance conversion copywriter.”

These hiring managers want someone who cares at least as much about the art + science of copywriting as they do.

No, scratch that. They insist that you care 100x more than they do.

As in, they need you to be hardcore. 

Lars Lofgren explains well his frustration with hiring non-hardcore copywriters:

1) They don’t talk to customers. You know how hard it is to really get inside the mindset of a target market? You have to talk to HUNDREDS of people. Not surveys, not dumb Reddit threads and Amazon reviews, you have to actually talk to them and really dig deep. Great copywriters take every chance they can to talk to as many people as they possibly can. They feed off it. Most copywriters don’t and their copy is terrible. It’s just a collection of random copywriting templates they learned from the popular books.

2) They’re not willing to eat a giant dose of humble pie. You may have read all the books and collected a swipe file. Who cares? You haven’t even started yet. Until you’ve built funnels from scratch to six and seven figures by relentlessly failing and iterating until you finally succeed, pay very close attention to the folks that have. Most copywriters think they’re rockstars. Only a few are.

(Side note: Lars added that you can refer to surveys, reviews, etc. His frustration is when that’s ALL you look at – when you don’t actually immerse yourself in the head and heart of the customer.)

How can you prove you’re hardcore? If I were you, I wouldn’t start by being particularly subtle…

Finally here are some additional frustrations your prospective clients may have felt:

“[It’s hard to find] samples of their work in the right format.” – Oli Gardner

“It’s important that anyone I work with understand the mission of my blog.” – Nir Eyal

“The hardest part is finding someone who can understand my market, and also ramp up to the technical aspects of our software. I’ve hired from referrals, after seeing someone’s work in a Facebook group, and these have generally panned out… but it’s hard to tell how someone will write in a totally different market than their previous work.” – Nathalie Lussier

“It’s difficult to evaluate whether someone is a good fit for a particular gig.” – Peep Laja

“[It’s frustrating when a copywriter] checks the box to get the work done, but they don’t treat the work like I think they would if it were their own. In other words, the quality of output is often underwhelming.” – Barrett Brooks

Of all the takeaways, here’s perhaps the most interesting one, IMHO…

The people who were most enthusiastic about spending $5000 on a sales page had this in common: they’d written long-form sales pages before. They know how hard it is to write a great sales page. And they know how well a well-done sales page can perform.

Which means that if you can, in early conversations, get a sense for who on the client’s team has been doing the writing, you may be able to pull those people deeper into your conversations. And nudge them to share the challenges of writing this kind of copy. So the person making the hiring decision doesn’t rely on assumptions and her calculator when it comes to signing the proposal or not.

Now I gotta wonder…

…would you balk at a $5000 sales page?

What would you need to know about a copywriter before you’d agree to a $5000 invoice?

What’s the most you’ve paid for copy, and would you pay the same copywriter that amount again?

Featured image by: Bryan Apen

The post Is $5000 a lot to charge for a sales page? We asked 14 marketers who hire freelancers. What they revealed could help you land your next project. appeared first on Copywriting For Start-ups And Marketers.

from SEO Tips https://copyhackers.com/2017/11/charge-for-a-sales-page/

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I spent the last 4 days writing a long-form sales page for one of our Copy Hackers programs.

At my day rate of $5000, that’s a $20,000 investment.

Given what a long-form sales page can do for revenue generation, $20K is money well-spent.

But not everyone would agree with that. Few would. And, to be honest, even yours truly would have a very, very hard time paying a freelance copywriter $20,000 to write a sales page. I’d need… well, we’re gonna get into what people like moi would need in order to pony up what is effectively a quarter of the average marketer’s annual salary.

But forget $20,000, which is a lot for almost anyone to pay for a single deliverable.

What about a $5000 invoice?

Is $5000 a lot to charge – or to pay – for a sales page?

I decided to ask a few top marketers. Here’s what they revealed.

These are the 14 marketers we asked

We reached out to some of the thought-leaders, marketers and general powerhouses growing today’s coolest (and most profitable [read: they can afford $5K invoices]) businesses online.

Among the handful of questions we asked them was this one:

If a freelance copywriter quoted you $5000 to write a sales page, what do you think your reaction would be?

Although two declined to answer (because the question was optional), the other 12 reacted like so:

You’re probably not terribly surprised by those reactions. As you’d expect, there’s no consensus. There’s no certainty. There’s no definitive takeaway – no sense that, yes, freelance copywriters can always safely charge $5000 or, no, you never should.

The surface reactions aren’t the point.

The stuff BEHIND those reactions – that’s the point.

That’s why we dug into why these marketers reacted as they did. If you’re trying to get prospective clients to sign off on projects like $5000 sales pages, listen closely to what they told us. And see what you can do to put yourself in a better negotiating position.

What does “$5000 is too expensive” really mean?

Surprise! Most people aren’t in the top 1% of expertise in their field.

Bigger surprise! Most copywriters aren’t in the top 1% of expertise in their field.

Biggest surprise! Marketers and founders are wise to the random guesswork that happens too often in the copywriting world.

When I’m talking with marketers about how they hire freelance copywriters, a strong distrust of the freelancer’s skills comes through time and again. After all, there’s no reliable third-party stamp of approval for copywriters. No degree in copywriting. No peer-reviewed portfolios. So until clients see proven, measured results, they don’t really believe that their new freelance copywriter knows how to, well, write copy.

(And even when the results are present, there’s still this strange sense that, somehow, it’s a fluke.)

Perhaps the biggest reason for this distrust is this:

There are just far too many people calling themselves copywriters.

Check out how many freelance copywriters are listed on one of the most popular spaces for finding freelancers, Upwork:

And how many of those copywriters have data or proof that they’re actually skilled at the job?

When you refine your search for job success (a form of proof), you see this:

So 2000+ freelance copywriters have “experience” getting the job done right.

Which doesn’t help a prospective client make a decision.

Because there’s still no PROOF that you can do what the client needs doing. Job success is not synonymous with proven results.

For a top marketer to pay you $5000 for a sales page project sans sticker shock, one of two things needs to be true.

You either need to have a great portfolio of results. Or you need to do pay-for-performance – as in, you get paid after the page performs well.

A few of the marketers who were NOT in a rush to invest $5K in sales page copy said they needed proof + results:

“It better make me at least 2x that amount or at least exponentially more than it was making before. If it does the job, I’m happy to pay it.” – Nadya Kohja

“Ouch! Unless I know they’re great.” – Oli Gardner

“You better be damn good at what you do! ROI matters more than cost, so you better be able to produce ROI at that cost.” – Barrett Brooks

Clearly your prospects need to KNOW that you’re gonna do great work. They can’t take on all the risk in hiring you; they need to feel confident that their investment will bring a return of, as Nadya said, at least 2x. I’d push that 2x further to something like 10x. Why? Because most people considering proposals for a page think exactly like Peep describes here:

“Some freelancers will quote 2k, 3k – and that’s the hard part: it’s often VERY difficult to see how the 5k quote would deliver a better result. As they say, if I can’t tell the difference, why pay more?” – Peep Laja

You’ve gotta answer this question: “Why should a client pay more for me than for the next freelance copywriter?”

Your results need to justify your rate. Period.

Your clients need to believe they’re going to get a 10x return on their investment. Period.

Of course, you don’t know how your page will perform until you put it out there. And that’s where pay for performance can be an appealing option for you and your prospective client. But let me be honest: P4P is super-tricky. I wouldn’t rush into it. And even clients who perk up at the idea of it lose interest when they realize how much work it’ll be to track it – to say nothing of the % of their revenues they’ll be sending your way.

Instead of pay for performance, bring a strong portfolio of results to those early convos with your prospects. Results sound tricky to collect. In fact, they are not. There’s data about your work all over the place –  you just need to go grab it. Quickly assembling a list of your results over the course of, say, the last 6 months is actually pretty easy, and it doesn’t require that you start participating in complex A/B tests or funnel optimizations.

WHAT YOU CAN DO: Start measuring your work immediately so you can reduce the risk for your clients and charge more. A few ideas for you:

Start asking for the before-and-after data (for traffic, conversions, etc) for the landing pages / websites you write for clients

Grab open and click rates from MailChimp, ConvertKit or whatever platform you and your clients use to send the emails you write

Set aside time each week to track week-over-week increases in shares, comments, traffic and more for the blog and social posts you’re responsible for writing

Run your own Facebook ad tests for your business

Run your own A/B tests for your landing pages inside Unbounce or your page platform

BTW, showing results is not optional.

No one would hire an SEO who couldn’t point to the traffic growth s/he had generated for clients. No one would hire a CRO consultancy without first reviewing highly persuasive, data-rich case studies. Possibly the only role that does get hired sans numbers is the role of the designer – but even that’s changing as marketers abandon gut reactions in favour of hard numbers.

Those who think $5000 is doable expect the same things as those who think it’s not: strong data going in, and strong ROI going out

Sorry, punkin, but there’s no escaping it: businesses dig numbers.

CFOs love numbers. They obsess over numbers like it’s their job.

Your skill with words will only get you so far as a freelance copywriter. Ultimately, you’re hired for the numbers, not the words. Here’s proof that measurable performance is everything when choosing a copywriter:

“Does this writer have evidence to support their claim that the copy will perform well? If yes, I’m ready to sign the quote. If it ranks and converts, $5K would be a bargain. ” – Andy Crestodina

“The biggest challenge would be to make the investment without knowing how the page would ultimately perform.” – Nate Turner

And let’s not forget the one marketer who said $5000 is too low

Lars Lofgren is the Senior Director of Growth at IWT. Unlike a lot of tech businesses and agencies, IWT uses long-form sales pages heavily – they’ve got a big ol’ team of copywriters – so Lars knows full well the power of a high-converting sales page. When I asked him the $5000 question, he said:

“If someone told me their salespage would cost $5000, I’d assume it would actually cause damage to the brand and not generate any tangible revenue. It’s going to hurt more than it helps.”

I couldn’t agree more.

When copywriters quote me $3000 to $5000 for a sales page, I know I’m going to have to do a lot of work on it. And truth be told: I’ve never had a freelance copywriter quote higher than $5K for a long-form sales page.

Now here’s a question.

Why is Lars the only one who said $5000 is too low for a sales page?

Is he just terrible with money? Has he got nothing but cash to burn? …Or is it something else? Is it that he’s not only written sales pages himself but also overseen the creation of some of the most profitable sales pages in online marketing?

That no one else reacted like Lars reveals one of the bigger issues underlying resistance to a $5000 invoice for a sales page: Not a lot of marketers have SEEN what a killer long-form sales page can do for their business.

And even worse?

Not a lot of COPYWRITERS have seen it, either.

The reality is that a long-form sales page is a one-page funnel. Imagine optimizing your funnel for just $5000. If someone quoted you $5000 to optimize your funnel, you’d have the same reaction Lars had: it’s not gonna work. Yet somehow a long-form sales page – which moves prospects from TOFU through MOFU to BOFU – isn’t obviously worth AT LEAST $5000 to many people hiring freelance copywriters. Do I blame those marketers and think they should all turn into Lars as soon as possible? (I’m actually pausing as I consider my answer.) …No. We copywriters just need to do a much better job of:

Writing strong long copy and

Telling the world about when it works and when it doesn’t so that

More marketers can stop wasting money on low-yield initiatives when they really need to put their copywriting budget toward expensive but high-converting long-form sales pages.

All that said, how can you get more clients to recognize your value and pay you like a champ?

To justify solid rates for writing sales copy, copywriters need to connect their work directly to two things: lead generation and revenue generation.

We asked this group of marketers:

What was the business objective you were trying to solve for when you recently hired a freelancer?

All answers fell into one of these 3 categories:

We wanted to generate more revenue

We wanted to generate more leads

We wanted someone to execute

The third category shows that, in some cases, businesses just want to hire you to do the execution work of writing copy. Four of the marketers we talked to simply wanted a freelance copywriter to execute without a direct success metric; for example, one freelance copywriter was hired to remove the jargon from a landing page.

But ten of the 14 marketers hired a copywriter for an outcome directly tied to growth: revenue or leads.

Nobody said they hired a freelancer to build their brand. Or to revamp their voice. Or to generate creative concepts. That doesn’t mean that other marketers on the planet won’t be looking for the creative side of copywriting… but 14 out of 14 marketers (in high-growth, profitable businesses, with a history of hiring copywriters) said absolutely nothing whatsoever about hiring a copywriter for creativity.

Get inside your prospect’s head! You know what they want. Now use their words in YOUR copy…

So you know you need results to woo clients.

But what else can you do, say and share to tip the scales in your favour?

You can use what marketers want and don’t want to write more persuasive sales copy for your services.

And what follows can help you with alluhthat…

So if you’re writing a sales page to sell your email copywriting services… or drumming up testimonials and wondering what to ask your past clients to focus on… or putting together a proposal and trying to figure out what to say under “About Me,” you should use the words your prospects would use / have used. Because you’re a copywriter. And that’s what copywriters do.

We asked these 14 marketers how they’d describe their ideal freelance copywriter. These are the words and phrases they used, in alphabetical order:

Aware

Brings a process

Data-driven

Disciplined

Fluid

Has courage

Empathic

Intelligent

Nimble

Perceptive

Proactive

Shows initiative

Specialist

Subject matter expert

Succinct

Takes ownership

And a few more insights into what clients want when they’re hiring freelance copywriters:

“A “dual-threat” SEO/conversion copywriter!” – Andy Crestodina

“Someone who ‘goes deep.’” – Nathalie Lussier

“In the past when I was looking for some help increasing conversions on a pricing page, I was looking for the best pricing page copywriter there was, and my search queries followed suit. So my ideal copywriter knows who they are, their strengths, and as a result, knows how they can help me better than everyone else.” – John Bonini

“Committed to staying a freelancer, able to write in multiple “voices”, good on the phone so I can trust them to call clients.” – Dana DiTomaso

And while you’re at it, overcome their biggest objections when you’re pitching

If you’re wondering why your prospective clients are skeptical about your value, chances are insanely good that they’ve been burned before.

Here are some of the frustrations these marketers have felt when working with copywriters. They may be the very same frustrations your next client wants to avoid. So consider them all when writing copy for your freelance services and/or talking to your prospective client on the phone.

FRUSTRATION 1. It’s simply hard to tell the great freelance copywriters from the ones who talk a good game.

‘Member all that stuff above about results? Yup, lack of results / lack of expertise is the #1 frustration people have with copywriters.

Tara Robertson, head of agency partnerships at Sprout Social, put it this way:

“Copy tends to be the hardest function to outsource for multiple reasons. For one, while loads of freelancers state they are ‘data driven writers,’ my experience has been more so that finding writers who are also great marketers is generally very hard to come by. Couple that with the need to learn a potentially new niche, product, or industry, as well as find your brand’s tone, really means you’re looking for a unicorn.

“There aren’t a lot of people in the world that truly “get it,” which is why this process can be both hard and cumbersome. I look at my outsourced team the same way I do as my internal team, and therefore it’s almost more important that your freelancer is able to deliver quality work as they’ll already be working at a disadvantage (less internal training, ramping time, etc).”

Nadya Khoja, Head of Marketing at Venngage, said:

“It’s hard to find someone who not only knows how to write well, but to write in a way that engages audiences. Naturally this can be said for any job or industry, but many people looking for a job tend to over promise and under deliver. When people claim to be a “writer” and we take a look at the copy written, it’s either overly academic, or poorly written in general.”

Nate Turner of Sprout Social said:

“[The most frustrating thing is finding] the right expertise and fit. There are plenty of resources available to source freelancers but it usually takes more time and effort to find people that have some expertise in your industry and can fit your objectives/tone/style.”

And Andy Crestodina of Orbit Media said it like so:

“[The most frustrating thing is] finding someone who can back up their recommendations with data.”

Your portfolio can help showcase your expertise. So can a case study cleverly disguised as a blog post (and shared in multiple places, not just on your blog). But be careful not to rely only on showing your expertise! Most people have no idea what goes into the work you do to create high-converting copy. So take the time to talk about and describe your process. Do as your math teacher said in elementary school: show your work. Don’t let your client guess at your expertise… ‘cos they might just dramatically underestimate you.

FRUSTRATION 2. The learning curve with new freelancers can be too much.

Your competition isn’t necessarily another freelancer. When your prospective client is considering you, she may also be considering simply training someone in-house to write the copy. Or getting her niece the English major to do it. It’s not that she thinks anyone can do your job; it may simply be that she doesn’t want to deal with the hassle of training a person who may not even be a great copywriter (see #1 above). Think about everything you need to know deeply as a copywriter:

The market

Market segments

Specific personas and/or jobs to be done

The product / service

The company vision

The brand voice

The marketing ecosystem – how X plays with Y

Editorial standards

Where to find enablement stuff, like testimonials and research

Creation and iteration processes

Oh, and you’ll have to be introduced to the team and integrated into it. You’ll need to use the right meeting tools… get added to specific Slack channels and kept out of other channels… get added to the right Trello board… not get in the way… know when to get in the way…

All that for a sales page?

John Bonini of Databox breaks down his experience onboarding freelance copywriters like this:

“You’ll spend a good deal of time chopping the wood with a copywriter in order to get them up the learning curve as quickly as possible… Everyone sees the output of a copywriter, but what they don’t see is everything that goes into defining the market, understanding the customer, and solving then real challenges businesses are facing.

“For example, improving plan mix for a SaaS company isn’t just about making the premium plan sound better – it’s more about understanding the motivations of their current buyer, the aspirations of the buyers they don’t yet have, and how to best position their plans to influence both.”

And Laura Roeder of MeetEdgar said that the learning curve is one of the hardest parts of working with a freelancer:

“When you’re working with someone for the first time, there’s so much to learn about each other’s needs. A lot of the time, it’s easier to work with someone you’ve worked with in the past and with whom you already have even a little bit of a professional rapport. Working with someone new can be great, but even in a best-case scenario, there’s a learning process involved!”

If you have reason to believe that the client you want to land is worried about the learning curve, what could you message in your copy? Do you have a unique system for integrating yourself into their world? Do you offer incentives for repeat work, given that the hard learning-curve stuff is out of the way after the first few jobs?

FRUSTRATION 3. The freelance copywriter is not hardcore.

The really, really good clients you want are the ones who 100% respect the work copywriters do. They don’t think you’re a wordsmith, and they don’t think they could do your job if only they had more time. They are hiring copywriters because they value copywriters. They have actual line items in their budget for “Freelance conversion copywriter.”

These hiring managers want someone who cares at least as much about the art + science of copywriting as they do.

No, scratch that. They insist that you care 100x more than they do.

As in, they need you to be hardcore. 

Lars Lofgren explains well his frustration with hiring non-hardcore copywriters:

1) They don’t talk to customers. You know how hard it is to really get inside the mindset of a target market? You have to talk to HUNDREDS of people. Not surveys, not dumb Reddit threads and Amazon reviews, you have to actually talk to them and really dig deep. Great copywriters take every chance they can to talk to as many people as they possibly can. They feed off it. Most copywriters don’t and their copy is terrible. It’s just a collection of random copywriting templates they learned from the popular books.

2) They’re not willing to eat a giant dose of humble pie. You may have read all the books and collected a swipe file. Who cares? You haven’t even started yet. Until you’ve built funnels from scratch to six and seven figures by relentlessly failing and iterating until you finally succeed, pay very close attention to the folks that have. Most copywriters think they’re rockstars. Only a few are.

(Side note: Lars added that you can refer to surveys, reviews, etc. His frustration is when that’s ALL you look at – when you don’t actually immerse yourself in the head and heart of the customer.)

How can you prove you’re hardcore? If I were you, I wouldn’t start by being particularly subtle…

Finally here are some additional frustrations your prospective clients may have felt:

“[It’s hard to find] samples of their work in the right format.” – Oli Gardner

“It’s important that anyone I work with understand the mission of my blog.” – Nir Eyal

“The hardest part is finding someone who can understand my market, and also ramp up to the technical aspects of our software. I’ve hired from referrals, after seeing someone’s work in a Facebook group, and these have generally panned out… but it’s hard to tell how someone will write in a totally different market than their previous work.” – Nathalie Lussier

“It’s difficult to evaluate whether someone is a good fit for a particular gig.” – Peep Laja

“[It’s frustrating when a copywriter] checks the box to get the work done, but they don’t treat the work like I think they would if it were their own. In other words, the quality of output is often underwhelming.” – Barrett Brooks

Of all the takeaways, here’s perhaps the most interesting one, IMHO…

The people who were most enthusiastic about spending $5000 on a sales page had this in common: they’d written long-form sales pages before. They know how hard it is to write a great sales page. And they know how well a well-done sales page can perform.

Which means that if you can, in early conversations, get a sense for who on the client’s team has been doing the writing, you may be able to pull those people deeper into your conversations. And nudge them to share the challenges of writing this kind of copy. So the person making the hiring decision doesn’t rely on assumptions and her calculator when it comes to signing the proposal or not.

Now I gotta wonder…

…would you balk at a $5000 sales page?

What would you need to know about a copywriter before you’d agree to a $5000 invoice?

What’s the most you’ve paid for copy, and would you pay the same copywriter that amount again?

Featured image by: Bryan Apen

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