#especially since i havent been very productive in this fandom is SO LONG

[sacklerscumrag]

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[lucidpantone]

I really hate the crew of wtfock for what they did to me. I was such a fan of the show since s1, I found happiness in every clips, every posts on insta, I found amazing people on tumblr, twitter, but everything went downhill in s4, I could not accept Kato as a main, I'm a proud black girl and this season broke my heart to the max. The inexcusable racism, the hidden hate towards POCs on social medias, the silencing voices... I even started to dislike some actors for being friends with Romi when she was the one who accepted to take away the role of a POC, to accept to play a racist girl and have discriminatory behaviour in 2020 of all that, and to even joke on her insta just because her friend said it was ok and she didn't even apologise when we called her out for it. Yeah they ruined my happiness and I can't even be happy when I see a wtfock post now. To even have Nora do a live and defend the season, saying that it's a prejudice based one ? Hurts me so much. And not even one excuses coming from the crew, nothing, it hurts deeply. I can't even enjoy anymore the beautiful fanfics that the fandom write. I read every zoenne and sobbe fics but now I don't even bother checking if there is new fic. I hate them for taking my happiness off me. They're starting to go downhill too with the lack of insta posts from their characters and only die hard fans of sobbe are here now let's be honest. Yasmina's season can't be saved if there is still Kato but a glimpse of sobbe will make the fandom shut up and they know it. It's sad and I'm so upset about it. Sorry for the rant but I so badly wanted to talk.

This is insanely long but these words are for my anon

Oh dear.....well am happy you told me and the looney tunes. I can’t say I blame you because s4 is so toxic and cruel on so many levels. You know some people will say its just a show “let it go” but I think what people don’t realize is what this show that you clearly loved tells you about the world at large. That even shows, brands, movements and celebrities can harbor questionable morality towards issues of race. S4 ended up being an exercise in showing [us/the audience] how morally corrupt the bosses of wtfock truly are and how at end of the day all those black boxes on instagram mean nothing when it comes to money. Because guess what? Platforming racist ideology does have a price and wtfock made it very clear that they got paid. Look am gonna tell you something that my anons have been saying in a coded way but havent said directly but lets just put it all on the table. 

S4 when Romi took the role it was not pitched as a season exploring interracial relationships or white privilege. It was never meant to be that. So Romi had no way in knowing what it would turn into. After the premiere night production panicked because they saw everyones disappointment towards the main(it should have been Moyo & everyone knows it even they do now) and took a hard left. Noa was meant to be Romi’s co-star but it was never meant to have all these racial undertones or not as extreme. The reason the script changed is because wtfock wanted to keep this whole “small engine that could” rapport going that they literally made the last minute call to try to tackle race relations. I mean to you and I we are probably like are these people for real? They are just gonna try to tackle race and white privilege as a story arc without having done the sufficient research and or had the man power in the writing room concerning writers with lived experienced on the topic. Yea, they did that. So anyways they “just decided” on a whim to tackle race *facepalm*. Now that decision in itself is an embodiment of white privilege. A bunch of white dudes wanted woke points and thought “race” yea we can totally do that topic unprepared. Hence why episode 2/3 were so damn repetitive and also literally made no sense. Am sure they pitched this to Romi as some super intellectual and thoughtful narrative that would hold deeper meaning. So I am not defending her instagram actions but I want to give her situation a bit of context. Also am pretty sure she tried to tell us in a round about way. Her insta post was just a display in lacking any awareness towards the importance and pain of BLM because she obviously just lacks race education or common sense but she is a 22 year old brand model so am not really looking for her to set an example. To me wtfock became in some weird way so high on fandom validation that they were egotistical enough to think they could try to tackle this insanely complex topic on a whim and with a 1st time screenwriter at that. S4 was doomed to fail from the start because it was a literal embodiment of unconscious bias that then turned into conscious bias because at one point they knew it was terrible while filming but they were too deep in to pull the plug. You are so in your right to be upset at them because to me the most hurtful thing is that THEY KNOW IT WAS BAD and they won’t address it and now they are going to use their token queer couple to try and fix this. Leave the gays out of it. You can’t fix racism with queerness it doesn’t work that way buddy(am looking at you Rutgers) especially for those who are part of both parties. Do I think a large part of the fan base will “forgive” wtfock for what they did? Probably, but its weird since technically wtfock should be asking their fans who are poc for forgiveness above anyone else. I guess I am not as pissy about the whole situation because am either cynical or emotionally numb to this type of fuckery. I would say concerning the cast and the crew it really isnt their fault. I hear from good sources a lot of them tried to say something and they were shut down. Look if you cant let this go then try to find some semblance of resolve over this. You’re allowed to be mad but at the same time this is the world we live in and this will happen to you again and again (trust me I speak from experience). I do hope you can try to find some comfort in Zoenne and Sobbe and try not to see the cronies of wtfock in their love stories but if you can’t then pack all their shit up and throw it in the attic. Maybe one day you can reopen that box. Last words of advice, happiness is a moving target because in reality it’s a compilation of moments that continuously mutate to accommodate other moments. So don't let s4 taint what moments you had with wtfock and try to remember the things you loved and if you need to walk then walk away. I wish I could give you the biggest hug right now but trust me when I say what you feel is so valid and am so happy you spoke to me about it.

[la5t-res0rt]

Wanted to ask about beetlelyds, sorry, I thought it was technically cannon? Like in the old comics after the show ended she grew up and married him. Sorry I’m an old school fan and have no idea why this whole thing is such a big deal. Wasn’t the actor like 20 too? I’m sorry if I sound very dumb. I’m not used to this new tumblr.

youre fine you are one hundred percent allowed to especially when you do it civilly as you have done here

first of all the biggest issue faced in the whole what is and is not canon debate is the fact that there are three (four if you count the limited comics run) publicized iterations of my media

i will go over each very briefly just kidding this is going to a long answer so i will spare the dashboard with a readmore

there is the movie which im sure you dont need me to explain the plot since youre an old school fan but basically the climax is that yes beetlejuice does go for the marriage angle in exchange for stopping the exorcism of adam and barbara and his motive for this is so that he can cause as much chaos as he wants on the mortal coil but his plan is thwarted when barbara rides a sandworm into the house which promptly eats beetlejuice sending him to bureaucratic death limbo

the end of the movie features the deetz and the maitlands happily living together with lydia havign a new appreciation for her situation and beetlejuice gets his head made real small which is very funny haha 

so no in the movie they are not canon editors note the actress who played lydia winona ryder was a teenager while filming the movie she turned 17 the year it released 

the next is the cartoon which i will admit has the most grounds for being considered canon but in the end the show is about a middle schooler and her best friend who is a ghost which in itself is a pretty iffy gray area sort of thing but for a childrens cartoon to work a friendship is better than the obvious enemy status they held in the movie

anyway in the cartoon they are potrayed to be very close friends with lydia being the person beetlejuice cares about the most and honestly if you were to watch it with no prior knowledge of the media and if you ignored their massive and obvious age difference than yeah you probably would read it as a romantic relationship 

however lydia is a middle schooler and that is simply immoral

there have been writers for the cartoon who have been credited to say that a relationship is what they were trying to invoke but for obvious reasons they couldnt exactly move forward with that angle with them establishing that lydia is a child in middle school and a fully grown adult man dating a child who is in middle school is immoral and also illegal in the united states and in canada 

this isnt a good argument for whether or not something is canon and i will tell you why with one simple name and that is luke weber

if you dont know who luke weber is he was a storyboard artist on the cartoon steven universe he is known for making a lot of self ship artwork of him and the character pearl

he worked on the show isnt his material canon no of course it isnt it wasnt put in the actual publication and also if memory serves he was eventually asked to leave the project after he drew art of the shows creator giving him permission to date pearl and calling them her otp and a lot of fans hated this because the most generally accepted interpretation of pearls character is that she is sapphic so a lot of people took issue however that again is just a widely perceived headcanon it is never stated what her actual sexuality is no one in that show is because it isnt a show about that its about wait im getting off topic sorry

what im saying is what can truly be considered canon is what you see on the screen and with the cartoon they are definitely the most friendly with each other and that is why so many people in the beetlebabe shipping community take so much stock in the cartoon because it is the easiest to read the relationship between the mas romantic although that is not what the show actually provides in black and white terms

interpretation does not equal canon and in this case no matter what anyone says the fact remains that in the cartoon itself they are friends good friends yes but friends all the same

it is definitely not a show about a grown man grooming an adult and if it were you definitely shouldn’t be stanning it the extreme because grooming a minor is wrong and it is apparently a problem in the fandom

anyway if the cartoon and the movie are both products of their time and there was more leniency on content bear in mind this was the same era as notorious animation powerhouse and known predator john k who was a showrunner on ren and stimpy and he maintained a relationship with a teenager which was an open secret that nobody really took issue with because in that time being a woman in the animation industry was tricky business and your career could be ended easily if you rejected advances luckily time has moved forward and the animation industry although still full of problems of a similar nature at least people are getting called out and punished for it

you can look more into that yourself its really upsetting though

as for comics i havent been able to find good scans of them and im not willing to purchase them but in my search i never found anything about the two of them ever being married in the cartoon again because she is a child i did find a cover where he appears to be getting married and hes asking lydia to get him out of it but im not sure where the comic actually goes all i know is she is standing off to the side shrugging and looking like she doesnt really care

anyway that brings us to the musical which is set in the modern day 

in the original libretto lydia is described as thirteen but since they got an actress who was older in the updated librettos she is listed as 15 and the story is pretty similar to the movie the young girl befriends ghosts and they try to scare her family out etc etc

the major difference between the film and the musical are that lydia and beetlejuice are more like friends like in the cartoon 

she summons him to help scare after the maitlands attempt doesnt really work so he shows up and they have fun terrorizing people together however she drops him for the opportunity to perhaps get her mom back but when no one will help she goes back to beetlejuice who tricks her into almost exorcising barbara

she agrees to marry him in order to stop the exorcism and he only wants to get married so he can be alive again and cause problems on the mortal coil like in the movie in the musical he states several times its a green card thing whihc obviously doesnt make it okay but still

anyway lydia tricks him and runs off into the underworld before the wedding can happen blah blah blah she goes back blah blah and she agrees to go through with the wedding to save her friends and family with a plan to make him go away for good

theres a very tongue and cheek song called creepy old guy which points out how wrong the whole thing is but everyone is going along with it in a very comedic matter and it includes the line 

i cant believe some cultures think this kind of things alright

basically saying yeah this is very very wrong anyway they do get married and beeltjeuice is alive for like 6 seconds before lydia stabs him to death with bad art and he dies thus nullifying the marriage because death do you part etc

so in the musical no at the end of the show they are not canon because he is dead their marriage is nullified and they go their separate ways

anyway sorry about that i just need to make it very clear that these three properties are all very distinct from each other and basically all three are indeed canon since they are publicized material and arguing the validity of which one is pointless editors note all actresses who played with the exception of dana steingold were minors for the majority of their runs as lydia with sophia ann caruso the originator of the role turning 18 during the run and dana being in her late twenties presley ryan however was a minor the whole time and still is one

tldr no they aren’t canon but to the credit of some people in this fandom their interpretation isnt too far of a stretch thanks to the era and some of the writers wishing to imply a relationship between an adult and a child

i also need to address how this is all a big deal and i suggest you take a peak through my discourse tag and check out @leedia‘s blog to see some of the more harmful things done by beetlebabe shippers

the beetlejuice fandom is home to many minors after the musical came out since musical fandom is vast and the ages of its members varies and normalizing pedophilia is harmful to them not to mention the people who have been effected by sexual harassment at the hands of adults

both sides have victims of csa but one side continues to perpetuate the cycle by showing time and time again that this behavior is normal and easily romanticized in the name of coping and literally anyone who has ever been to a good and credible therapist could tell you that posting cp even if it is simulated cp isnt a really good way to cope and you can get mad at me for saying that its totally fine but and im going to remove my character veil here for just a second as a csa survivor myself i think its harmful to not only myself but many others ok the veil is back down

tldr again there is a lot of bullying and harassment going on with both sides having their own issues but there is one side whos issues run a bit deeper in my humble opinion 

thank you for your question it allowed me to talk a lot you are welcome to discuss further with me in dms if you wish i honestly recommend giving the musical a listen because it is very fun and despite what some people say its very clever and if you get a chance to see a boot of it its visually stunning

one last note that i couldnt really fit in here but a large portion of the beetlebabes shipping community ignore the musical because it openly condemns the idea of beeltejuice and lydia having a relationship and a lot of the antis take issue with much of the writing and characterizations of the cartoon just a note that i think is important since were talking about canon