#elk undertext

[elkian]

(spoilers for Undertale's True Pacifist and No Mercy Endings)

So something very interesting about the respective endgames in the most polar opposite endings for Undertale - all mercy vs none, you know the drill - something I've only recently discovered is that the True Lab's BGM is not, as I thought, called True Lab.

It's called Here We Are.

Someone else has pointed out that between She's Playing Piano, RUN!, and Can You Even Call This A Hotel I Didn't Receive A Mint On My Pillow Or Anything, it's extremely probable that the hidden narrator of the game, speculated to be Chara (I've seen a few Gaster speculations that are pretty cute but for the player-character in specific, Chara makes much more sense as an actual answer there) is also the one naming some/all of the music tracks.

In No Mercy runs, the NEW HOME mirror message reads "It's me, [NAME]", while in True Pacifist runarounds, the HOME mirror now reads "Still just you, Frisk". So I think this is a viable read.

Anyways, my point is that when the player finds the Real Knife, the flavor text at one point is "Here we are!"

It's not possible to see this message and hear the True Lab's theme in the same run unless hacking is involved. This is super interesting to me. Both of these refer to Endgame events specific to that route - I don't think you can get the Real Knife if you spared even one monster - players only see it if the Sans fight and finale are set in stone already. And once the player enters the True Lab, there's no way out until you've finished the zone. (Both cases excluding player Resets, but that's not the point I'm trying to make here.)

Anyways, it makes me think Chara is aware of the "end" of the game approaching in both No Mercy and Pacifist runs, which is interesting, because they're suggested to be much more active in the former, but not uninvested in the latter. My interpretation is it's almost a sigh of relief, the BGM name - like they knew something was up, and now Frisk and the player know it, too.

Anyways. Food for thought.

[elkian]

fallen back into the hyperfixation (undertale) and thinking abt the implications of how Papyrus acts w Undyne vs Sans

If you tell Sans that Papyrus is uncool he tells you that sarcasm isn't funny (it's also v interesting to me that Sans never says an untruth if he can help it but hides a bunch, while Papyrus is occasionally dishonest, but usually for benign reasons). I've seen theories that Sans is also autistic and having difficulty reading tone (which is oftentimes the bulk of sarcasm) is a big one. Which is also neat to me is that Sans is really good at reading expressions. So in short, Sans typically only says something dishonest if it's blatantly part of a joke with an incoming punchline, right? And he doesn't like sarcasm, never uses it.

Papyrus will get sarcastic and cutting regularly when talking with Undyne when you call them both. The few times she misinterprets these it tends to be in the direction of "continuing a bit Papyrus might not have realized he started", not outright confusion. There's few if any times she legitimately fails to understand when Papyrus is being sarcastic, in a way that makes her feel bad; they're almost always in agreement or doing a bit.

What makes this really interesting to me is that while Papyrus tends to act kind of overblown with Sans - even moreso than usual, probably because he knows Sans won't be bothered with it or will go along - he never seems to use dishonesty or sarcasm when conversing with his brother.

Papyrus also has a lot of negative things to say about Hotland, but he only says "Glad I don't live in Hotland!" before you befriend Undyne. When he complains after that, it's always about specific aspects, usually of puzzles, a thing Undyne doesn't like much so they can have an agreement or fairly constructive conversation about it.

He also changes his opinion on Grillby's to agree with Undyne, but is fine making jabs at her love of anime, so he's not being like... obsequious at all times.

Anyways my point is that he's actually pretty good at matching the energy of ppl he's conversing with ig? I love him.

[elkian]

so I’m rewatching ManlyBadassHero’s Undertale LP, specifically the Sans fight, and something occurred to me.

When Sans is fighting/testing you and explains that he was hoping befriending ‘the anomaly’ would be enough to make it happy, he goes on to say “But you’re not the kind of person who’s ever happy.”

And I realize.

Just like Flowey’s dig at people who watch LPs of the route rather than play it themselves, this is Sans’ dig at the player: You could have had a nice, overall happy and sweet game experience. But because you couldn’t be satisfied with that and had to push yourself and had to 100% it, now you get fuckin lazer cannons to the soul. That this tough gaming experience is entirely on you

And maybe that’s a reason why his death is more sad than satisfying - like in the rest of the game, the ‘monsters’ you kill are people, and you’re not triumphing over a faceless boss, you’re killing your friend.

[elkian]

what if post ‘corrupted’ pacifist ending Chara never affects Frisk’s actions or does anything violent but just passively enjoys being around the people they loved and being reminded of why they were willing to die for the monster kingdom and eventually peacefully fades away

[elkian]

so there’s the fanon that Sans actually swears quite a bit but has been curbing himself around Frisk, and while that’s perfectly valid, also consider: Frisk teaching Surface swears to all their new monster buds without any notion as to the actual meaning or background of any such swears. Toriel is going to pop something.

[elkian]

Asgore Dreemurr did some things wrong but Toriel is not a perfect angel either

I should preface with the fact that I never really loved Toriel - I don’t hate or even dislike her, but I never got the Goatmom vibe. Maybe it was because I played the demo first and remembered from there, but her ulterior motives and actions always struck me as insidious and kind of creepy.

Toriel preaches nonviolence, but the moment you go against her wishes, she attacks you. She will start avoiding you once your health falls below a certain point, but it is possible, if difficult, for her to kill you.

As someone pointed out, you know who CAN’T kill you? Papyrus. If your HP hits 0 in his fight, you’ll wake up in his shed and can keep challenging him until you win or he lets you go. It is impossible to die against Papyrus. It is not impossible to die against Toriel.

It’s not impossible to die against Asgore, either, but at least he is up front about his intentions - though he clearly wants to avoid the confrontation, and lets you go do whatever you want to do beforehand, putting it off as much as possible. Toriel and Asgore deliberately mimic each other’s encounters, as bookends to the game. I also find it interesting that Asgore will remember how many times he’s killed you - or at least agree with your commentary. In the early demo, the only way to get Toriel to let you go was to kill her and THEN talk to her, I believe; she didn’t know what you were talking about, but it gave you the DETERMINATION to push through.

I also find it interesting that Toriel and Asgore have the same displayed stats. Though Toriel is obviously holding back against you, she is as strong as Asgore - stronger, if his weapon and armor grant any actually bonuses. I know it was mostly just a way to further connect the two, but it’s interesting, especially considering LOVE.

More to the point - Toriel and Asgore both deal with their children’s deaths in different, but similar ways. Toriel literally retreats to a place she was once happy with her family, while Asgore mentally retreats. Toriel’s escapism reminds me of the Froggit’s description of MERCY - she’s saying she won’t fight, but that doesn’t mean she’s actually trying to help anyone either.

And her battle quote, “Knows best for you” (which interests me in light of the Narrator!Chara theory), is coldly echoed in all of her actions up to that point. She knows what’s best for you, and so adopts you - regardless of your own wishes. Notice how all the monsters in the RUINS are afraid of her - she scares away the Froggit that attacks you early on, etc. She’s given up her responsibility as Queen to save the monster race - which, fair’s fair, isn’t something ANYONE should have to shoulder - and basically turns herself into a hermit, locking the RUINS. 

That’s an important point - locking the RUINS (as the bunny merchant in town says, they’ve been locked for possible centuries) is a totally and completely selfish act. It’s not just someone locking themself in the attic to study old photographs - every monster inside of the RUINS can’t get out and see their family. In her grief, she traps dozens of innocent people, and clearly either doesn’t listen to their pleas, or they are too frightened of her to even ask her to open the door. Muffet comments that the spiders have some form of communication, but considering everyone else’s understanding of the RUINS, this belongs to the spiders alone.

Asgore’s escapism only hurts himself, and anyone who reaches the castle - people who have passed through the entire Underground, who know what they are getting into and proceed anyway. Toriel’s escapism affects everyone around her, and anyone who enters the Underground.

I don’t (entirely) blame Toriel for giving up and even leaving Asgore on his own to deal with all that responsibility, but then she blames him for continuing to do what she left him doing... she tells him that he could have taken one human SOUL and gone aboveground to get more, which is true, but... couldn’t she have done the same thing? Again, it’s not a responsibility that anyone should be dealing with, but between her and the fandom, it feels like Asgore is unfairly vilified for doing the only thing he could - for delaying the deaths of more people, says Toriel, who preaches nonviolence at the start.

Also compare Toriel’s centuries-old memory of Asgore (which has clearly been festering) to Papyrus, Undyne, etc.’s modern memories - everyone talks about what a swell guy he is, which is clearly seen when you interact with him, while Toriel’s first impression feels... kind of fake.

Asgore did some things wrong but he’s not the only one.

[elkian]

that undyne video made me think

the way the music cuts out when a monster dies (or, sometimes, is interrupted), and considering how many rpg elements the game acknowledges (including the music, in the Muffet fight flavor text)... and how it changes depending on who’s on screen/in control... do monsters actually generate the music? is it just a weird thing that nobody really thinks about? and some people never bothered developing more than ‘basic’ abilities and then we have mettaton and undyne and the pacifist boss

[elkian]

i

welp

new headcanon: sans has the voice of the narrator in There Is No Game

[elkian]

Another interesting thing I realized about the differences/similarities between Undertale modes

Mettaton... to an extent, Papyrus, possibly Toriel, etc. in Pacifist/Neutral give you the ability to skip to the meat of the battle if you keep dying. Undyne in No-Mercy has a skip option too. Which is a nice acknowledgement of how frustrating it is to keep doing the same thing over and over. Additionally, the elevator to New Home goes very slowly the first time for ambiance, but pretty quickly on the way back (perhaps the idea being that you would be in a state of anticipation and it would feel like a long ride the first time)

But if you try to speed up the sans fight...

he goes ‘okay, let’s skip the intro’ and drops you with no warning right into his major attack, then finishes his intro

[elkian]

Things I realized thanks to Jacksepticeye’s Undertale LP:

The tables in the MTT Resort Restaurant are Mettatons

and

The only non-employees in the restaurant are the monster licking the ficus and the pair at the table - implied to be coworkers and apparently the only people with a reservation. But it’s MTT - there’s no way the restaurant isn’t outrageously expensive, and they got a reservation, so I doubt they just popped in for a bite after work.

They’re on a date.

[elkian]

Okay you know how Sans tells you about Toriel’s request to protect you?

So here’s a thought.

There’s no way Toriel got to the door to tell him that after your fight - especially if you ended up killing her, cause I’m not sure but I think he says the same if you do?

She spent most of the time between meeting you and you getting to Home baking a pie and chasing a dog for her phone, and considering her concern and all, I don’t think she would have made a detour like that during that time.

So most likely, she made this request either while you were sleeping, or even maybe before even meeting you.

Toriel already realized she would have to let you go.

[elkian]

i wonder if the reason you can’t go up the ‘stairs’ from mettaton’s play is because it’s more like... a ladder or even a piece of corrugated cardboard with one side ripped off

[elkian]

I know people love drawing Sans in punny t-shirts and I respect that but please consider:

a) Sans and Papyrus shopping and thrift stores

b) Sans and Papyrus having no sense of human fashion and/or not caring and coming out with the most hideous, awful things you’ve ever seen (and they love it)

[elkian]

so I started mentally ficcing about Alphys and Undyne coming over to play DnD (since w/ just the two of them it tended to turn into pure makeouts which wasn’t necessarily bad but)

Frisk predicts Papyrus’s class and alignment before he even starts on a character sheet, and guesses that Sans wants to play a bard; so we’ve got LG Paladin Papyrus, CG Barbarian Undyne, Sans is kinda convinced to play NG Bard; quite possibly Flowey (and then because reasons, Chara (but as a ghost; Aphys is rolling for both of them)) as an NG Cleric. Chara is... I’d say maybe a Sorcerer? Who is discouraged from being LE And instead goes for True Neutral, as they believe Frisk (Druid) has done.

At one point Alphys instructs everyone to leave except for Frisk and Chara, at which point Frisk kills Chara’s character, who was in their way, because their character is actually Neutral Evil. Chara’s less than pleased about this turn of events but DOES find it hilarious that no one else knows so they keep quiet.

Sans starts to catch on because Frisk claims it was the main antagonists’ fault, but said antagonist denies it and Sans rolls high enough to realize they’re being truthful. At which point Frisk kills his character too.

Again, the rest of the party doesn’t know what’s going on, and Chara and Sans find it too funny to say (Sans at one point says he can’t tell the living party anything because he’s dead), and Alphys is enjoying the weird turn the campaign has taken.

Undyne rolls high enough to suspect Frisk, and at some point gets Papyrus to cast Detect Evil, at which point Frisk casts tanglefoot/a vine spell and sets it on fire. Flowey can’t believe he’s doing this but he’s helping Undyne, while Papyrus is having a slight crisis over the idea of fighting his friends (he also rolls a super-high Diplomacy that Alphys decides decreases Frisk’s AC for a few turns); this is when Asgore walks in with a tray of snacks and asks how the game’s going, eyes glazing over slightly as the situation is explained.

I haven’t really decided how it ends but I do love the idea of Frisk just randomly, idly deciding to be Evil and trying to initiate a TPK

[elkian]

....WAIT A SECOND

Undertale’s menu theme is Hopes and Dreams/SAVE the World are you shitting me

[elkian]

Super Smash character Papyrus whose foes always disappear into a little doghouse when they die and his Final Smash is a Nintendog covering the screen while he stamps his feet (and then Sans ducks in and slams all the other characters into the ground)