#either curufin or maedhros imo but not sure at all

[nin-varisse]

I feel like these would be the most likely candidates but feel free to add others (e.g. maybe Celegorm for having Míriel's hair)!

[tolkien-feels]

Could you please share more Mahtan headcanons? Especially his relationship with Maedhros? I get the impression that they are really close, and that Mahtan(and Finwe too actually) views Maedhros as his pride and joy. I think Maedhros is a perfectionist and tries really hard to be the perfect son and grandson, and that this irritates his brothers somewhat. I think Maedhros and Curufin are somewhat similar in this aspect, which makes their relationship really interesting (more so than Maedhros/Maglor and Celegorm/Curufin imo)

I've already said a few things on this post, which is most likely why you're sending me this in the first place, but you might also wanna check out this short post about Maedhros and Curufin.

Anyway, to quote from the post you're referring to:

Maedhros might be Nelyafinwe, but he’s also Russandol, and let’s not forget this quote:

[Nerdanel’s father’s] name was [space; pencilled later Sarmo?], but he was most widely known as Urundil ‘copper-lover’. He usually wore a band of copper about his head. His hair was not as dark or black as was that of most of the Ñoldor, but brown, and had glints of coppery-red in it. Of Nerdanel’s seven children the oldest, and the twins (a very rare thing among the Eldar) had hair of this kind. The eldest also wore a copper circlet.

Let's go from there.

What I find fascinating is that Maedhros looks like Mahtan and possibly has a similar temperament (since both have names that reflect their on-point copper accessorizing: Mahtan goes by Urundil 'copper-lover' and Maedhros goes by Russandol 'copper-top'), but Curufin is the one who inherits Mahtan's skill of craft.

On the Finwe side, Maedhros makes no attempt to produce an heir, and gives up the crown but is able to prove himself an amazing leader whenever his leadership is tested. But then, Curufin continues the family line with Celebrimbor, and his attachment to Feanor is a clear mirror of Finwe's.

If, like I said, Feanor is caught up between his affinity with Mahtan and Finwe, Maedhros and Curufin who themselves inherited different parts of Feanor don't quite align themselves as easily with their grandfathers either.

To put it simply, I like to think that Maedhros is a leader like Finwe and Curufin is a crafter like Mahtan, but that on a personal level, Maedhros's personality is reminiscent of Mahtan's while Curufin's is of Finwe's. (Or what little we can guess about Mahtan and Finwe given the very limited info we have.)

So while I'm sure both grandfathers greatly love all of Feanor and Nerdanel's sons, I've always headcanoned that Maedhros and Curufin are great favorites. It's also, in part, an age thing - I headcanon there's a bigger age gap between Curufin and the twins than between any other of the Feanorians, so for a while, Maedhros was extra beloved for being the first grandson, and Curufin for being the youngest.

In terms of sheer amount of time spent together, Maedhros probably has spent more time with Finwe and Curufin with Mahtan, because Maedhros belongs at court and Curufin by a forge. But I also think that if Maedhros did stop by Mahtan's forge, Mahtan would drop everything to go greet him, and the same with Curufin and Finwe. The very fact that they naturally get along but don't necessarily spend too much time together ensures that when they do meet, it's a whole thing.

If we're talking specifics (and going back to what you actually asked me, which was to talk about Mahtan and Maedhros!), I imagine that (like I've mentioned here) Maedhros reminds Mahtan a lot of young Nerdanel. I mean, much more outgoing and less crafty, but the drive to always do the right thing, the willfulness tempered by kindness, the wise-beyond-their-years thing... it's all very familiar.

While Maedhros as I headcanon him was very independent from a very young age, and while I do think he knew he could and many times did rely on his parents, I also like to think that if he ever needed any kind of advice that he wasn't necessarily eager to get from his parents (mainly advice about his parents, though not exclusively), Mahtan would be his go-to person. (Which also means Mahtan helped shape Maedhros's personality, a little bit.)

I've thought about it before and I don't think Nerdanel would ask Maedhros to draw away from Feanor, or to persuade his brothers to, not even after Feanor is 100% out of control following Finwe's death. Mahtan, though? I can see that. I love the headcanon that Mahtan would at some point (probably not when he warned Nerdanel - I think it'd be later) talk to Maedhros in private and... not ask him to stay away from Feanor, but make it very clear that Feanor is becoming dangerous and is likely to get worse and that Aule is concerned.

And I do think Maedhros takes the warning very seriously, but unlike Nerdanel, Maedhros, perhaps in a very well-intentioned display of Feanorian arrogance, decides that actually, he can salvage the situation somehow, and that his siblings are definitely his responsibility. After Finwe dies on his watch (not on his watch, but good luck convincing him of that), Maedhros also thinks Feanor's wellbeing is his responsibility as some twisted kind of atonement.

I do think that while Mahtan intellectually understands that this is no one's fault exactly, he very much blames himself for not having handled the Maedhros situation better. Maybe if their conversation had gone differently things wouldn't have happened this way, etc.

This. got very long. I'll shut up now.

[undercat-overdog]

I prefer the Silmarillion version of Amrod’s death, and I’m also not a fan of slightly crispy Amrod either. I think the Shibboleth version of Losgar exculpates the Feanorians (and thus makes Maedhros not special in his refusal, and takes away the russingon feels if you’re into that), lessens the power of the Oath, and doesn’t fit timeline-wise in the arc of the overall story.

1. It lessens the collective culpability of the Feanorians. Now it’s just a couple of people who are responsible for burning works of art and abandoning their fellows, not something shared by the entire host (save Maedhros).

2. The Shibboleth version devalues Maedhros’s decision in standing aside alone - he doesn’t even have the opportunity to stand aside: it seems he wouldn’t know what’s happening. Sure, in the Silm version, his - very public! - decision to not participate doesn’t seem sufficient to us, but it is A Big Deal in his culture: Feanor is not just his father but the political leader to whom he owes loyalty. In this version, where Maedhros didn’t even know about the ships being burnt until it had already started, there’s no declaration of regard for Fingon nor his courage in standing up to Feanor. (Also, while I don’t have any russingon feels myself - used to, spent time in fandom, another story - it’s a big russingon moment that Maedhros makes a very public stand out of his regard for Fingon, the one time he takes on (political) danger for Fingon, and the Shib does way with that.)

3. (this does not apply to partially crispy Amrod) It means one Feanorian does not die because of his Oath - in fact, it means one Feanorian breaks the Oath, and thus lessens the Oath’s power in the story. (And on this note, while it does make the non-Curufin Feanorians not culpable in the burning of the ships, it makes their later decision to not try to break the Oath worse, given that they know someone who swore it can choose to go back. If Amrod tries to turn back and succeeds in turning back (though he dies before he gets anywhere), I don’t think it’s possible to read the Oath as inviolable. I personally am fine with this one, but I don’t read the Oath as unbreakable and compulsive. But if you want Maedhros, etc, to have no choice, an Amrod that turns back doesn’t square with that imo.

4. It happens too soon in the story. This stage in the Silmarillion is where things are going well. The Feanorians drive Morgoth’s forces back from Himlad deep into Ard-Galen (and the Siege of the Falas is broken). There’s a couple versions of the Dagor-nuin-Giliath, but in all it’s a solid victory for the Elves. Light returns, the Moon and the Sun rise; shortly after, Maedhros is rescued. This part of the story is an upswing, and Amrod’s death imo interrupts this and the story arc is lessened.

5. Others can discuss Feanor’s characterization; I have no particular thoughts on that. However, and related to the above: this tragedy happens too soon for Feanor’s story and role in the broader plot. I think it works better before things start going really wrong: he dies before he sees the what the Oath will lead to. He starts it all, and then...

6. It doesn’t happen in the published version of the Silmarillion. Yeah, this is a reason for me. I don’t always stick to the Silm itself, but I do give it more weight because it is the text of the fandom: it’s the one people read first - it may be the only book people read, either because of preference or ability to find the others; it’s a cohesive and comprehensive narrative and I do think there should be some “base” text. This is honestly a personal preference and others can disagree, but I do view the Silm as having slightly more weight than the other sources.

[galadhremmin]

We have derived Caranthir liking the Dwarves (and vice versa) because apparently, Finrod succeeds in every field Caranthir fails, and at this point it's clear this derives from the in-universe writer of the Silm and his own biases. Think about it: "Dark Finwë" , a grumpy, prejudiced lordling, and "Hair Champion", most handsome, noble king, have met with the same people!! Yet the king of the first secret kingdom is everyone's friend, but the prince that trades with them regularly is not... seems sus.

Hence, Caranthir is friends with the Dwarves. (But that is just an interpretation, so you're free to think what you wish, I just have several opinions on in-universe prejudice and the almighty narrative.)

I think that 'we' might actually have been Dawn Felagund years ago. Maybe this reading existed even before that, but I doubt that-- she's been very influential in silm fandom and was long before tumblr was much of a thing. https://dawnfelagund.com/caranthir-the-slandered

I wouldn't say it's 'clear' that what amounts to Caranthir's entire documented personality derives from the bias of the in-universe narrator, though as you can see from Dawn's writing it's a reading you can argue for. There are a number of different approaches you can take to the Silm and its biases anyway. One of the few times when it's absolutely clear the text isn't telling the entire story is when it talks about the Easterlings. I've posted about this before but the recorded names are, uhh.... the ones to betray the elves are unlikely to actually have been named things like 'ugly lord' and 'ugly beard.' 'Dark Finwe' on the other hand is a documented reference to his haircolour being dark like Finwe's own; hardly a negative judgement!

I personally think Caranthir can be exactly as ill-tempered and prejudiced as the Silm paints him without becoming an unsympathetic character. If a writer cannot make a moody, deeply prejudiced man an interesting character that is a failure as a writer; there are after all enough books who manage exactly that. That is not to say choosing not to write him that way is a failure (obviously not), but it's not necessary in order to make a reader feel for him at all.

Just going by the text, I think it actually might make for a more interesting narrative to explore in fic to me. Because he does change his mind about something, and at a very specific moment; when he meets the Haladin. That is much less dramatic if he secretly been as nice and popular as Finrod, and got along with everyone all the time already. He's been raised by Fëanor, who said things like 'No other race shall oust us!' and rallied the Noldor not motivated enough by vengeance for Finwë alone by playing on their deep-seated fear of being replaced by the Secondborn. Very unlikely that had no impact. At best it has made him uninterested in humans in his area (while they're not much of a threat to ruling instead of the elves anyway). The text says they paid them no heed.

And yet! Caranthir sees how brave Haleth and her people are. He 'does her great honour.' He changes his mind and offers them lands. His tragedy to me is not that of a slandered figure, but of this deeply, deeply prejudiced person raised to distrust the motivations of human beings -- who overcomes those beliefs, offers friendship, is rejected! then extends that same trust to the Easterlings anyway... and it's those specific Easterlings, not the ones who ally with his brothers-- who betray them all. And cause the disastrous ending of the Nirnaeth. It's the 'to evil end shall all things turn that they begin well' part of the curse hitting him in the least fair way possible. Someone finally changes for the better, and the outcome is treason and destruction.

That is a very good character arc to me, actually. His aesthetics-based scorn for the Dwarves is reprehensible but strikes me as deeply Elvish, and part of his prejudices. Naugrim is too unflattering a name for them for it not to be common. His temper-- well why can't he have one? Sure there's only one recorded instance -- but that's imo because there are hardly any conversations in the Silm! Anyway I like some people with tempers well enough. Personally I think people are missing out on opiniated grouches.

Obviously the biased anti-Feanorian Pengolodh reading is a nice one, and I have enjoyed a lot of stories written based it. But it's not at all a reading that is necessary for me to read Caranthir as a flawed but sympathetic character. He can have serious faults and still, ultimately, be someone I feel for.

What I was asking though was if I overlooked any canon evidence of Caranthir being particularly, personally fond of the Dwarves; and it seems I did not. Also; there is room for Caranthir growing to like the Dwarves over centuries without an anti-Feanorian bias reading this strong, there is simply no evidence for friendship in the rather barebones narrative (I'm not interested atm because it's wildly overdone to me & I like variety).

That said, in my opinion making Caranthir the hidden, slandered Feanorian Finrod equivalent with a dash of Curufin's Dwarf affection is not as enjoyable as simply working with what little canon character is actually there. Because there is one (and it's not the greedy tax collector of some fanon depictions either imo)

1. To start with, wrt Caranthir as the anti-Finrod, I don't think it works that well. Sure sure dark/light, open/prejudiced, repressed/shouty, but different motivations, different locations, plus they meet very different peoples even if both are Edain-- besides, Caranthir's own older brothers do successfully ally with the Easterlings without betrayal, while Curufin (much more so than Finrod! no Khuzdul for Finrod!) is the Dwarves' Friend(tm). Also, a flawed Finrod already exists. That's just the regular edition. He has his own faults and (very different) tragic arc.

If Finrod never seems to have strong prejudices to overcome, and if he's not confrontational (which... look he's a diplomat. Make of that what you will. Pretty awkward there in Doriath, buddy!) he does have trouble facing his own complicity (he wanted to sail those ships despite the murders) until Sauron beats him to death with it. He leaves Valinor with the idea of ruling but he has to give up the crown. He's ambitious, he seems emotionally repressed, he's.. possibly paying the greater Dwarves to drive the Petty Dwarves out of their ancestral home to build a city? Oops. Depending on the version you go with in that case, of course; there's also ones where he's free of the blame of that one. Not of wanting to sail those ships and being uneasy with the guilt wrt wanting to do so despite their being stolen and murdered for though. No he doesn't kill; but he wants to use the result of it anyway, and to make it worse he is actually half Telerin.

There's also (to be fair, only for sure after the disaster of the Sudden Flame because that's the recorded instance) his guards killing random innocent trespassers to keep his kingdom hidden -- yes, that's right there in Silm, yes he's still King at the time. Beren has to wave that ring. People just seem to miss that he'd be killed without it somehow.

I think it's just too easy to reduce him to the golden perfect opposite of Caranthir. Yes he's described more positively; he's also just mentioned more because unlike Caranthir he rules an actual kingdom, the greatest and richest in Beleriand in fact; and does things that have a lot of very longterm effects, like helping B&L steal a Silmaril. They don't 'meet the same people' anyway -- the Haladin have a different culture from the Beorians which contributes to their reaction to Caranthir (and iirc their later fate).

Sidenote: Dawn's essay attributes the Green Elves helping the Feanorians at Amon Ereb to Caranthir's diplomatic skills; but why not to those of Amras or Amrod? This is the quote; 'Caranthir fled and joined the remnant of his people to the scattered folk of the hunters, Amrod and Amras, and they retreated and passed Ramdal in the south. Upon Amon Ereb they maintained a watch and some strength of war, and they had aid of the Green-elves' -- nothing here indicates it was Caranthir who got them that aid. In fact A&A are the hunters, i.e. more likely to have roamed in various forests where they would have encountered Green Elves, imo.

There's also the very desperate times to consider in which this aid takes place. This is just post Sudden Flame, and even if the Green Elves didn't like Caranthir they probably liked him better than Morgoth. Also, speaking of cosmopolitans, Maedhros allies with, yes, Dwarves (Azaghal), Grey elves, Easterlings (and you might say: Fingolfinians); even part of the remaining people of Dorthonion rally to Himring post sudden flame (that means Edain and Arafinwean followers in Himring, at least for a time), and he manages to be friendly with Felagund despite calling him a badger. ;)

Finrod is not the only other leader to forge diverse alliances, and though B&L ends happily his people mostly do not. Caranthir's not much like Finrod in any way. Not in motivations, temperament, tragic arc. That's fine. No hidden kingdom for a dragon to eat either. Finrod could probably do with being a little less like Finrod sometimes, though he's well-intentioned and likable. Caranthir loves to shout and isn't sneaky. Good for him.

2. Curufin also already exists. His love for Dwarves is one of his defining and redeeming characteristics and boy does he need them. He's daddy's favourite, a sneaky overambitious bitchy bastard who is also a talented smith and linguist, and truly considered a Dwarf friend, which is apparently exceptional. He's quite flawed; tries to help Celegorm force a political marriage, laughs with a bruised mouth, seeming to lose his mind while attempting and failing murder after first losing his own stronghold and then the city he tried to take from his cousin. He's just... a personality. Mostly a bad one! You can feel for him though, because he seems like an utter mess. Many 'i would love to study you' feelings on my part. Would hate for him to be real but also I'd pay to be his therapist.

3. And then finally there's Canon Caranthir. A difficult, prejudiced person who despite that (which doesn't at all have to mean there is no despite, the despite is what makes it juicy)

- seems to be responsible for re-establishing (large scale?) trade with the Dwarves, whatever he might think of them (and they of him) to their mutual benefit. I don't think he's greedy either. It seems like a mutually profitable situation. Access to Dwarvish goods seems pretty vital to Beleriand, and facilitating trade is a real service.

As someone pointed out in the replies, the Silm does mention Dwarvish companies travelling east to Nan Elmoth and menegroth various times, but quote wrt Caranthir says 'Caranthir’s people came upon the Dwarves, who after the onslaught of Morgoth and the coming of the Noldor had ceased their traffic into Beleriand' and 'when the Dwarves began again to journey into Beleriand.'

They stopped at some point and Caranthir's people made it happen again.

- which means he's practical. He seems like he's good at organising, and setting his own feelings aside if necessary despite his prejudice and temper (which is an achievement it wouldn't be without his, hm, everything). Also he and his people as well as the Dwarves work together well because ''either people loved skill and were eager to learn,' despite their (initial?) mutual dislike. Those aren't bad characteristics; seems like it was an exchange of skill as well as goods and possibly providing safe travel opportunities.

I don't like the 'greedy Caranthir' fanon and don't think it is even that easy support entirely with canon. 'They had of it great profit,' the text says-- both Caranthir and the Dwarves. They exchanged skills and knowledge and Caranthir seems to have helped them start trading in Beleriand again. That's hardly Scrooge Mcduck.

- Another thing we can say about canonthir (lol) is that he apparently attaches a lot of value to aesthetics (was he a visual artist? is a he a sculptor like Nerdanel? WORSE: AN ART CRITIC?! Feanorian art critic is truly nightmare fuel) and that's why he dislikes Dwarves (of all things...). Either way points to 'aesthetics' as something apparently important to Caranthir. Which makes sense given who his parents are. What is interesting to me is that this apparently DOESN'T matter to Curufin, who is a lot like Feanor in most things. That's interesting!

I've never, never seen this but I think it would be very funny to attribute his aesthetic prejudices to Nerdanel. I love her; but why should her opinions be perfect? I know she wasn't considered beautiful herself, but she's an artist. She's got to have had some strong opinions on aesthetics anyway. I doubt it's the beards; Mahtan had one as well. And 'stunted'...at least some of this comes down to the Elvish obsession with height yet again. Hm.

- eventually Caranthir overcomes what have to be some very deeply held beliefs about human beings and their place in the world, and offers what for all intents and purposes looks like real friendship, not the ruling over Men Feanor seems to have had in mind at best. He's capable of real change!

Anyway his character works just fine to me from canon, and what he achieves and the ways in which he fails are more interesting that way rather-- neither slandered Feanorian Finrod 2.0 nor Curufin 'Dwarf Fan' Feanorion without the sneakiness and murder attempts pack the same punch as a stupidly prejudiced grouchy man doing his best anyway for centuries in this stupid ugly cursed land, eventually changing for the better, opening up-- and being brutally punished for it by the Doom.

Dammit. I hope there's therapy in the Everlasting Darkness.

hm a bit long but that's what I get for trying to gather my thoughts wrt why after considering it a bit transferring Curufin's love for Dwarves to Caranthir is a bit boring to me personally. Though there are still stories that still do it very well.