#dutch apologist

[queen-diamond-serenity]

I found this quite satisfying to read

The biggest problem I've always had with this community who's against Dutch is that they never tried to look at it from his side of the fence. Like I said before Dutch has his faults but he's not the only one with them.

[queen-diamond-serenity]

I love Dutch he can get away with being a pervert towards me. Hot damn!🥵

soooooo I was looking through Dutch’s audio files and came across some files called CHAT_PERV and I nearly died

[pinkysberg]

I have been thinking a lot about dutch and arthur relationships recently and like rewatching the playthrough and honesty started to get the impression that dutch never genuinely cared about arthur like it momment where dutch say how he thinks of arthur as a son but I kinda don't belive anymore after the all the events to be honest I kinda think that dutch was intentionally/unintentionally grooming him but I am leaning more in intentionally especially when you go into arthur book about how dutch seem to obessed over young angry boys and we see this happen with eagle flies (sorry if this doesn't make sense )

(This is unrelated but i need talk about it )

someone was talking about how John and abligal was actually good and health relationship and like I have to disagree because isn't the whole point of john character is to become a better father and husband for his children and wife and saying that they had health relationships is kinda ignoring his character arc

to each their own interpretation.

i believe dutch when he says he cares for arthur, or john and i also believe he believes they're like sons to him. i don't think the way he acts and treats them always aligns with that. i don't think it's as simple as dutch set out to intentionally groom arthur into this lifestyle, and certainly not because to his core he is a manipulative, calculated man. not to say he's not those things, but i don't necessarily think he knowingly sets out to do it all the time. for dutch, i believe the care he has for arthur, hosea, and even john was real to him. his ego and self interest, however, outweighs that. dutch sees the utility in an angry (fatherless) young man. he's surrounded by them, he knows how to direct that rage for his own gain, and he does it systematically over and over again. i think he learned this through arthur and john, he didn't set out to do it but learned over the years what an angry young man can be and do for him.

as for the other point idk who would describe john and abigail pre beechers hope as a non toxic relationship but i agree, the point is it's not supposed to be a functional, healthy dynamic.

[ballsfartpee]

I’m shaking and crying over Kieran again

[reijndeers]

i swear memphis depay is the most annoying prick known to man just shut up?? nobody wants to hear about you being friends with rapists?? go to jail if you want to defend criminals so badly omd

[queen-diamond-serenity]

this shit hurt this shit really really hurts. If you think this man was a narcissist you are one of the biggest pieces of shit walking and Red Dead Redemption community and that means it's a lot of shit lying around piled over the top of the roof. This is not how a narcissist Acts. That life that Outlaw life is all that he knew that is the hand that life dealt that man. And he played the best he could. I don't believe he was being fake when he said he did the best he could. I don't excuse his faults I don't try to make excuses for them I'm aware that he made mistakes I'm aware that he had some selfish sides to him. My problem is that everyone sit up here and act like he's the only one with fault when he is not. And that is something that I keep pondering on while I'm in the process of bringing a little criticism to some of the favorites among red that Redemption such as John and Arthur. Why do people want to look at them like they are a saint? Because they conveniently tried to do the right thing at times? So they get to be looked at as some kind of hero why do they get to get excuses while y'all give Dutch hell? I was hurt when Arthur died just like everyone else was hurt. You know when I played this game I wasn't expecting to be fucked up over it the way I was. What happened to Dutch and his game how it all fell apart and some of the members I grew close to that ended up losing their lives that shit will never sit right in my soul do you understand me? It will never sit right with me. This game has done something to me that no other game has ever had. I have never been the same since playing this game the people in this game the characters have done something to me has changed my life in a way that I probably will never understand. I am so deeply invested and connected to these characters in such a way because a lot of what I see in Red Dead Redemption I can relate to this shit. I will continue to be a Dutch apologist and don't give a damn who don't like it. It's easy to be a Dutch hater because there's no effort in that area to actually use your brain cells and do a proper character analysis and breakdown of him right? One dimensional lazy view of his character. That's the only way that you can break down his character and try to understand him. Because let's face it Dutch is too complex for a a human mind that renders on basic one-dimensional templates.

This breaks my heart to watch. It’s as if Dutch is trying to convince himself that everything will be okay more than he’s trying to convince Arthur.

As I said once before, I will say again… Dutch may have lost faith in Arthur, but more importantly, he lost faith in himself.

[absolutelyfibulas]

If I ever see the take that Hien "went out of his way to pardon a sex trafficker" again, I think I might go insane.

[txttletale]

dnis are evitonmental storytelling because you can instantly imagine the incomprehensible hellscape someone is trapped in if they have a dni that's like dni if you:

think irish people can't be pan

are an apologist for season 2 scrunklepus or the knights of glop

hunt and kill people for sport

play frunko's quest

think movies always have to be slimy

think it's okay for welsh people to cosplay flugson

don't tag bibbles or togs

think that dutch and samoan are the same nationality

use the z-slur

participated in the srebenica massacre

are mutuals with steve

[queen-diamond-serenity]

You see this? LOL

It's shit like this that people say is the reason why I end up in heated debates online and catch a attitude. Because they say dumb shit like this lol. Like how dumb do you sound? I don't connect very well with many people. And it's probably because I have deep critical thinking skills. I usually have true authentic unpopular opinions. And I don't shy away from criticizing stupidity. You see the internet has gave people the space to think they can say whatever they want without rebuttal. They just come up with the dumbest explanations and people are not supposed to say shit about it. Where does this actually make sense at? It's like you're just trying to say something just to say something. Foolishness.

Most people who think they get Dutch and think they should be speaking on him really shouldn't be. You haven't had the man figured out like you'd like to believe you do. If you don't think he went up there other than to shoot Michael with full intent over what he did to Arthur in the first place then you are just slow.

As far as bringing up him not having any honor or integrity would you think proves that in the first game.

He had lost everything. He's to blame for his gang coming to ruin.

He lost his best friend he lost men who are like Sons to him from his own negligence and on top of the law coming against him there's a lot of factors that can be brought up on the condition that Dutch found himself in when we see him in the first game.

He just didn't care anymore. He lost everything he went through hell his whole life. And it just made him go crazy. But only people like these people want to sit here and think that he's just some sociopathic narcissist that's always been like this that he wasn't actually a good person at one point and he lost his way.

This is life I've known people who fell from a mighty way. I've known some really good people in my life that have lost their footing and is unrecognizable now. It's life it happens. But because people like this have a black and white mentality they don't understand the complexities of real life.

A lot of these people and go through real shit in life. They come from a generation that's coddled like fuck. Oversensitive and in their feelings about every little thing. They want to sit there and talk about Dutch mental state when they own mental state need to be questioned half of the time to be honest. No I'm not trying to be a rhetoric here or a drama queen I just can't help but criticize this. Because the explanations that people come up with and things they say about Dutch just irritates me because it's stupid.

And most people can't call out this ignorance because they're ignorant their damn selves.

I didn't play the first game but I did watch clips of it online. However, I did beat the second game several times. And even in the first game I could blatantly see Dutch full intent was the go up there and shoot Micah's ass I knew he was going to do it. He sure as hell didn't come there for that money. You can blatantly see how fucked up he was on that mountain when Arthur died. You could see it broke something in him the whole situation that they went through in the second game broke him. So when I seen him on that mountain I knew what he was going to do.

I guess that's what happens when you have a mom that don't raise idiots with low comprehension skills. Or lack the ability to read people.

Most fans who have a shower opinion about Dutch is coming from playing the first game, first. Which is why I probably never shared the same opinions that they had about Dutch. And if I so happen to had end up playing the first game when it first came out I probably still wouldn't share the same opinions they have about him. Because they just never fit. As much as they like to believe they make sense when explaining who Dutch is they never actually do.

Whatever I guess.

I actually enjoyed these rants concerning dutch. I enjoy criticizing his haters. They enjoy talking shit about him so why can't

I'm a Dutch fan I have a right and the space to defend him.

[queen-diamond-serenity]

In all honesty anti Dutch people can kiss my black azz lol. I'll go hard for him I'm an apologist for him and don't give a shyt who don't like it.

Wow, am I ever glad some in this fandom *have* blocked me here. Let people enjoy things and not dictate what should go in another's fic. This is a fandom for outlaw cowboys where there are slo-mos of people being messily done away with, so whatever puritan culture nonsense one might have carried in from another fandom where that might be stuff is acceptable, pls leave it at the door. Or just don't have it period, fandoming is for fun! . . . I might have been inspired though create another puff piece centred around Dutch giving Hosea aftercare on New Year's. I probs won't get it done by then (I still need to continue on 'The Merry Misadventures' (sorry about neglecting you, hon) but. I wasn't going to write until the new year but thanks, blorbos ;)

Dutch for tax though.

[koshkahhh]

Molly O'Shea✨️

She's so gorgeous. I swear, i would treat her a thousand times better than Dutch could everrrrr!!!

Molly Apologist 4 Life!!!

[equus-cowboyus]

i actually get so mad when i think about that the majority of the red dead fan base actually thinks molly did something wrong. like why is it more normal to be an arthur apologist than it is for a character who GENUINELY did nothing wrong.

a common point to make is that she never helped with the gang (which is stupid tbh because by that logic uncle deserves death then) but she was never expected to, at least not by dutch. dutch did so well at effectively isolating her from the entirety of the outside world and then isolating her AGAIN from the entire gang and eventually even removing himself from her supports. leaving her with no one, no place to run aside from with the gang, and no idea how to handle herself in a world of outlaws AND MIGHT I ADD- as an IRISH WOMAN IMMIGRANT IN HER 20'S!!!!!

people act like her lying about being a rat somehow still makes her a rat and tbh! i just think you hate women!! milton himself said she never said shit and honestly- she should have. but she kept her mouth shut and stayed loyal to an entire group of people that didn't even notice nor care when she would lie on the floor crying and eventually just ran off.

if you hate molly i'm just assuming you hate women atp. do you have to love her? no. but if you have some indescribable hatred and stupid "theories" that jump narrative logic and still paint her as the rat to me that's definitely some underlying misogyny at work. molly LITERALLY never did anything wrong, not just a like "ohhh they're my fav ignoring the horrors i love them." there is nothing that she did in her situation that could be construed as wrong. dutch was manipulating her and had so much power over her in a myriad of ways. the way she responded was completely valid. people act like she's hysterical (cough cough misogyny) but she was being completely reasonable for her situation.

[vanderlindes-babygirl]

I concur with the aforementioned response and would like to add my own two cents to the discussion.

Fundamentally, I don’t consider Dutch a complete narcissist, whether it be covert or grandiose. I DO agree that he displays certain characteristics of one, but a lot of people can display traits of a particular mental illness without having it in its entirety.

But besides all that, I think it’s fair to also examine the reasons why he acts as he does too. Nothing happens in a vacuum, and nothing is all the responsibility of just one character.

For instance, Dutch loses a lot of trust in Arthur towards the end, and since we (as players) are interpreting the game through Arthur, we are inclined to agree more with him during arguments. We ARE Arthur, so we will naturally be biased towards his perspective. However, a proper analysis of Dutch requires as much neutral examination as possible, and we must ask… why does Dutch lose trust? Certainly, it doesn’t turn out that way for no reason?

Well, taking a step back, let’s go to Chapter 4. Dutch did not want to rob the bank in St. Denis, and it was primarily Hosea’s plan. They were split on going through with it, until Arthur weighed in. He sided with Hosea, and convinced Dutch to do it. As a result, they lost two key members of the gang, became very divided, and had the highest pressure yet from the law placed on them. Why on Earth would Dutch trust Arthur so easily again after that?

And that’s not even mentioning breaking John out of prison. Dutch is afraid that they’re keeping him alive and in captivity as a lure because it’s well-known that the Van der Linde Gang does everything they can to protect their people (ex: look at how they saved Sean not long before). He doesn’t want to rush back because although it’s important to get John back, it could put the rest of the gang into jeopardy without a proper plan, which would both be bad for John AND everybody else. Yet, Arthur goes behind Dutch’s back to save him, and as a result, the rest of Chapter 6 consists of dealing with deputy sheriffs and bounty hunters scouting the location around their camp as they close in.

To be clear, I think it’s good that John was saved, and I’m glad he survived. However, that doesn’t mean he wasn’t returned without major risk and new problems for the gang as a whole.

Dutch already has a lot of pressure on him, and now, he’s forced to come up with a plan with the law just barely out of sight. Who wouldn’t show signs of strain, frustration, and betrayal in that kind of situation?

Some people even point to him killing Leviticus Cornwall as being driven by ego, but I would disagree with that as well. With the law so close, specifically the Pinkertons, it seemed like a logical choice. The Pinkertons are a private investigative group, and they’re hired by Cornwall to catch the gang. By killing the man who contracts with and pays them, the purpose was to cut off their funding and limit their power.

He was desperate, and he failed to realize that the contract was through Cornwall’s company (named after him), and not him as the individual. Was it the right thing to do? I’m not sure. But the point is, Dutch was limited in options, and he really did make an attempt to lessen the pressure on the gang so they could escape easier, even if the idea didn’t work.

Not to mention, multiple people suggest that Dutch isn’t acting like his normal self. These are people who have known him for years, if not decades. I think their judgments are pretty reliable, and they all seem to agree that he’s more argumentative and hostile than ever before. It doesn’t seem right to judge his entire personality on the cracks that form in a few weeks over the more upbeat person they knew for years prior.

Plus, why don’t these same people who are worried about him do more to help? People are working behind his back to mitigate damages, and even if they are justified in protecting themselves, it’s totally understandable why this would make Dutch even more isolated, hurt, AND more susceptible to Micah’s tricks.

Even though Micah had bad intentions, Dutch turned to him because he was the only one who showed consistent “support” (even though it was all later revealed to be an act). Even when people had good intentions for the gang, they didn’t communicate much to Dutch. How could he ever understand they still cared without knowing?

It really wasn’t about his ego. Sure, part of it is within us all as humans, but I don’t believe it was his motivating factor in what he did. Again, people who knew him for YEARS claimed that the man they saw in Chapter 6 was not the man they ever knew before. If he really was a narcissist driven by ego the entire time, why would they not ever talk about feeling this way before?

A classifying trait of narcissism is their cyclical nature of winning affection, devaluing people, discarding them, and starting over again. But the people in the gang never talk about clear cycles of devaluing and discarding happening prior, which suggests that his negativity at the end of Chapter 6 and onwards is not typical for him. Instead, it’s most likely the result of emotional trauma.

So, to sum this up, it really isn’t fair to label people as being “red flags” for interpreting a character in a more positive light. As I discussed, there are a LOT of details in the story that contradict the original arguments as to why he’s a “bad” person and why his fans are “red flags.”

To me (and many other Dutch fans), he’s very human. A man who has flaws and makes mistakes, just like all people do, but who is NOT inherently evil or driven by selfishness.

If your favorite character from the Red Dead series is Dutch, 🚩🚩🚩🚩

[sickvictorianangel]

Micah fans and apologists are worse than the Dutch's defenders... Like, y'all like an abusive racist??? Wtf internet!

[evelynmiller]

I am such a Reverend Swanson apologist and I'm such a sucker for the interactions between him and Dutch. The way Dutch sits on the ground with him as equals and speaks to him with so much empathy and kindness and no judgment, the way he treats his addiction as an illness rather than a moral failing. The way Dutch refers to him as family and doesn't hesitate to show physical and verbal affection to this man that most of the gang treat as a burden. My heart.

[eldritch-bf]

Dutch: “When I’m gone, they’ll just find another monster. They have to, because they have to justify their wages.”

Charles Tilly: “Apologists for particular governments and for government in general commonly argue, precisely, that they offer protection from local and external violence. They claim that the prices they charge barely cover the costs of protection. They call people who complain about the price of protection "anarchists," "subversives," or both at once. But consider the definition of a racketeer as someone who creates a threat and then charges for its reduction. Governments' provision of protection, by this standard, often qualifies as racketeering. To the extent that the threats against which a given government protects its citizens are imaginary or are consequences of its own activities, the government has organized a protection racket. Since governments themselves commonly simulate, stimulate, or even fabricate threats of external war and since the repressive and extractive activities of governments often constitute the largest current threats to the livelihoods of their own citizens, many governments operate in essentially the same ways as racketeers. There is, of course, a difference: Racketeers, by the conventional definition, operate without the sanctity of governments.”