#don't set a precedent that women inherit after men.

[whitegownsandflowercrowns]

I do think all of the adults had some part to play in creating the Dance but if I had to break it down to who had the most power to prevent it it would be Jaehaerys up to and including the Great Council, Viserys up until the moment Aegon is born and Otto from then on.

[queenvhagar]

House of the dragon would have been so good if they just stuck to the books. Like I get making small changes here and there but not huge changes like they’ve been doing. I bet it would have been more popular. I would have liked to see more team grey fans too

Imagine they took the approach to succession like the ASOIAF books did for the War of the Five Kings:

Joffrey Baratheon wants the throne because he's the king's named heir (but he's not the king's trueborn eldest son and prone to acts of cruelty in his court).

Stannis Baratheon wants the throne because he's the eldest living trueborn male after the last king (but he's not well-liked, known to have a strict sense of justice, and is affiliated with dark magicks).

Renly Baratheon wants the throne because he's the king's own blood and the last king gained his throne through conquest, so why not do the same thing again (but in doing so he challenges his older brother and there are rumors that he prefers knights and squires).

Daenerys Targaryen wants the throne because she's the eldest child of the last Targaryen king, whose house ruled the Iron Throne for generations until it was taken by the Baratheons (but she is a woman, a foreigner to Westeros, and unafraid of using fire and blood, something that led to her father being originally deposed).

In this conflict each claimant has their own arguments for why they should sit the throne, and that's why the get the level of support that they do. There is no clear single person that should get the throne necessarily. The conflict is more realistically complex and gray.

In Fire and Blood, these are the circumstances for each claimant:

Aegon Targaryen should sit the throne because he is the king's eldest trueborn son, whose succession is supported by generations of tradition and precedent. Additionally, his council is experienced and has ruled the realm for years, including his Hand, who was hand to the last two kings. He has a trueborn heir in Jaehaerys and multiple spares. Also, his family's life is in danger should Rhaenyra succeed, as she would have to kill them to secure her atypical succession and prevent dissent.

But he is rumored to be lazy, drunk, and has several living bastards in Flea Bottom that he largely ignores. He is also not the king's named heir nor have any sworn oaths previously to him.

Rhaenyra Targaryen wants the throne because she is the king's eldest trueborn child and the king's named heir. Lords swore oaths to her decades ago that they would support her succession.

But her three eldest sons are most likely bastards, set to inherit after her, which could lead to further questions of succession, especially with her youngest trueborn children. Distancing her husband from power was the reason she was named heir in the first place, but now he would be her king consort. Also, she would be the first woman to sit the throne, which could lead to instability, especially with her brothers around as trueborn sons of the king with arguably stronger claims.

It's clear that there are valid arguments on each side and reasons why some might support one claimant over the other. The conflict is more complex and nuanced.

However, in House of the Dragon, the conflict was portrayed like this:

Aegon Targaryen should sit the throne because he is the king's eldest trueborn son, because his mother misunderstood the king's last words and thought he named Aegon last minute, and also men don't think women should have power.

But Aegon is a confirmed rapist and enjoyer of child fighting pits and he ignores his wife. Also he's impulsive, ignorant, and a coward. His council is also incompetent despite ruling for years.

Rhaenyra Targaryen should sit the throne because she is the king's eldest trueborn child and his named heir. Lords swore oaths to her decades ago that they would support her succession. Also, the white stag appeared before her, a sign that the gods support her, and she has to fight for the Prophecy of Ice and Fire to save the world from a distant inhuman threat, and only she can do this! She is also the perfect mother and an overall good person all around, and she tries so hard to keep the peace while she wages a war to take her throne, so why wouldn't you choose her over the alternative?

But she might just be too good and pure for this world 🥹 and all the men around her ignore her because of misogyny. Or maybe she is starting to get high on her power? Nah 🤪

[atopvisenyashill]

what if jacaerys velaryon was born a girl, would rhaenyra name her heir of the throne?

That would be up to Viserys at that point and it would be fun bc he’d finally have to clarify what the fuck he’s trying to do with the succession.

If he names a girl Jacaerys his heir before Rhaenyra has even attempted having a second child, there’s gonna be questions like “what are we dornish or something” that he’s going to have to deal with.

If he skips over Jacaerys and names Lucerys as Rhaenyra’s heir, people are probably going to ask “well why did you skip Jacaerys but not Rhaenyra?” and he’s going to have to have an answer besides “shut up.” - and his answer could be a lot of things tbh, bc “the king chooses his heir” is Not precedent you need to be setting while at the same time, “No female line can inherit ever” is an equally terrible and stupid precedent. he’s got free range to craft whatever the fuck rationale he wants and make it sound logical, bc look at jaehaerys & the doctrine of exceptionalism. he rode balerion ffs, these people will probably mostly fall in line if he has a maester draft a technicality rule!

I think especially if he skips Jace, names Luke, and then marries them to each other (huge risk if they’re still obviously harwin’s kids, btw), Alicent is just gonna be sitting there like “now wait a goddamn minute.”

If you’re sitting here thinking “both of those options sound like a mess” that’s because it is a mess :) “No female line can inherit” and Rhaenyra being named over Daemon cannot exist in the same world because according to GC 101, an uncle comes before a cousin and a male cousin comes before a daughter, every single goddamn time. Viserys doesn’t clarify his position here bc his position is “my brother is annoying as shit and i feel guilty that i left my daughter without a mother the way i was left without a mother” and that’s not like, a law, it’s a vibe. he then continues not clarifying after remarrying, having a son, AND naming that fucking son Aegon. But if Rhaenyra also has a firstborn daughter, it's not as easy for Viserys to just kinda "aw shucks" and mumble his way out of the room.

I also genuinely don't know what Rhaenyra would do. She's not fighting for absolute primogeniture (though she would have been in a better position if she had decided to fight for it). What she's fighting for is her father's right to name her as heir and her own right to be named as heir. It's about her situation specifically which was complicated when she was named and became more complicated after her brothers were born; there's precedent in story that someone can just name their heir and bypass the whole ~structure~ if there's not a clear line of inheritance, like Jeyne Arryn bypassing her first cousin (because he attempted to usurp her) for her fourth cousin (because he was loyal) and the Iron Throne backing up Jeyne's decision, and this is clearly how Rhaenyra is treating her own ascension. Rhaenyra is the exception the same way Targaryen incest is the exception to the Faith.

When the question of women inheriting over brothers comes up, she sides against absolute primogeniture because Corlys advises her to do so - and I like him but I am once again saying that Corlys is to blame for almost all of the dumb shit inheritance decisions that Rhaenyra makes, because Rhaenyra defaults to his "wisdom" as her advisor. Obviously Rhaenyra is incredibly short sighted in both placing too many unhatched eggs in Corlys' shit ass basket as well as treating her own ascension as somehow different than women inheriting over men, but you can kinda see the argument she's going for, she's just doing it badly (because she has bad advisors). She's saying her ascension was special because of the lack of heirs at the time and that you can't unname the Crown Princess, and she's very clearly backing away from setting any sort of precedent regarding literally anything else. She's amazingly similar to her father in that way; conflict averse but with a terrifying temper. And like I said up top, a girl Jacaerys forces both Rhaenyra and Viserys to finally look at the mess they, the Hightowers, and Jaehaerys made of the line of succession and fix it.

[lovedreamer11]

When I see people saying that supporting Rhaenyra and Team Blacks is the same thing as supporting Alicent and Team Greens because they are both fighting for power and Rhaenyra and Alicent are both fighting for surviving in a misogynistic society, I want to pull my hair out.

No, it's not the same thing.

Even if Rhaenyra and Team Blacks don't specifically fight for feminism and women's rights, if Rhaenyra becomes queen it will set a precedent for the right of women to inherit the throne ! Unlike Aegon who will not help this aspect in society.

Then, the Blacks team, although fighting for their team and Rhaenyra to have the throne, it is not just a question of power. It is also the fact of respecting the law / the word of the king, of honoring his promises and his oaths. Fighting for the honor and future of their home and their family. Also, a form of change technically.

The Greens' fight is due to the pure ambition of power, to steal what is not yours / to be a usurper, to go against the law / the will of the king, that oaths and promises do not worthless, fighting for archaic patriarchal traditions with keeping men first. Not to mention the purity of blood with their aversion to children born out of wedlock while the Blacks team essentially has nothing to do with it.

I'm tired of seeing this kind of bullshit always trying to put the two teams on the same level. The two teams have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Is it so hard to understand that the Blacks team are the protagonists of the story, made up of anti-heroes / gray and complex characters or heroic characters ? Against the Greens team who are the antagonists made up of villains, nothing more, nothing less.

It's not for nothing that in the end the Greens team receives a karmic punishment and not the Blacks team.

I absolutely agree with you.

It's a bit of a shame. After all, Alicent is also a woman. By supporting friendship with Rhaenyra and her claim to the throne, she would help set a precedent that could change the old traditions of Westeros. The fate of all women in Westeros could change in the future. But Alicent chose her ambitions.

Black characters are not good people. They're just people. With its own positive character traits, but also with its shortcomings. At the same time, the Green characters are absolute evil (except Helaena) that I have nothing good to say about.

[bbygirl-aemond]

i don't think baela and rhaena really apply. they're going to be married to jace and luke so they'll still have everything they would otherwise.

(i'm using this ask as an excuse to rant about the showrunners making house velaryon black given what happens to them and also about how baela and rhaena's situation is still very unfair)

i think making house velaryon black is another decision the showrunners didn't think through properly. i think it was entirely for the diversity aspect, since they'd shot themselves in the foot by making all of the houses in game of thrones white and had very rightfully received criticism for doing so. the velaryons are one of the only houses that aren't depicted in game of thrones, so were one of the only options for doing this. i was even pretty happy at first, because the velaryons are a very powerful and ancient house, and the only house aside from the targaryens to ever wield dragons.

but i do think it casts some aspects of team black in a more unfortunate light. here's where baela and rhaena come in. let me make it clear, i understand that after her sons are born rhaenyra has no choice but to present them as legitimate out of very warranted fear for their safety. so i'm not saying that rhaenyra has malevolently done this, nor that after the boys' birth she had any real choice, but...

the optics of setting aside two black women's rightful inheritance in order to uplift white men is not exactly great. it's certainly not groundbreaking. especially when you consider that black characters have such little power overall- driftmark is really the only thing black nobles have to their name in westeros. and now they are being expected to pass it along to white men. the fact that future generations will be mixed doesn't make it much better- in fact i honestly think it's worse. the white targaryens aren't just colonizing one generation out of hundreds that rules driftmark; they're colonizing the entire subsequent velaryon bloodline. you know, the same house whose black members are vocally unhappy with this colonization- that is, until the colonizers kill them or cut out their tongues (hello, vaemond + silent five). i just think it makes the velaryons' anger at the whole situation seem a little more... legitimate? at least through modern eyes, it's not just that the boys are born out of wedlock (though obviously, hello misogyny and conservatism, that's a big part of it). it's also that the boys, by virtue of being out of wedlock, straight up do not possess any of the black heritage that makes house velaryon unique. (if they'd made harwin black as well, i think it could have solved this issue btw)

and i know that baela and rhaena are being married to jace and luke, but i need y'all to understand that this is not the same as them holding their power by their own right. every single bit of wealth, power, or property that these girls will ever have, save for their dragons, will not actually belong to them. it will all legally belong to their husbands. any decision-making power they have, anything they buy or do, will only ever be because their husbands are permitting them. their agency and their strength will be entirely contingent on the white men in their lives. jace and luke have inherent titles and power- they are princes by birth. baela and rhaena aren't princesses, or even ladies. the only political title they will ever hold will be as a consort- as an extension of the more powerful white man they are married to.

i very much don't think that jace and luke have any intention of curtailing these girls' power. but that doesn't change the fact that it won't truly be theirs. it's also unrealistic to expect that couples will go their entire lives without ever once disagreeing on something. the moment they do, the power imbalance will become clear. additionally, the show has set a precedent of those in power within the targaryen family in particular unintentionally harming others with ignorance of how their power allows them to steamroll over others' agency. viserys does not recognize the power he has over alicent due to his position, and she suffers for it. rhaenyra does not recognize the power she has over criston due to her position, and he suffers for it. a lack of intentional abuse does not preclude these boys from accidentally imposing their will on others.

a good real-world comparison for baela and rhaena's situation would be that of a stay-at-home mom who has staked her entire life on her husband's goodwill. she has no degree and no job. she has no money or property. her house and everything inside it belongs to her husband, not her. and even if her husband never leaves her, even if in some false universe with no conflict he never even disagrees with her, it does not change the fact that her livelihood is forever dependent on his permission. this is a power imbalance that must, by virtue of its significance, seep its way into their relationship. it's why relationships between a boss and employee are illegal in the united states- because it's understood that this power imbalance absolutely does have a compromising affect on the less powerful person's consent and agency.

anyways, like i said, i don't have good answers here for how this situation might be resolved, and i don't think that this move condemns rhaenyra as some intentional thief of black women's inheritance. she was choosing between baela and rhaena's agency and her children's lives, after all. but i know that making baela and rhaena black, and jace and luke white, makes the unfairness of baela and rhaena being sidelined as a result of powerful white people's actions sting even more. like yay, more black women whose entire life is dependent on a white man's goodwill and whose plot relevance is solely tied to their ability to benefit said white men's reputations. it's just not revolutionary in the way the showrunners seem to think it is. it's old, and it's tired, and i'm tired of it.

i really hope they'll do more with baela and rhaena's storylines and find some way to give them power in their own right, but i'm afraid it will never trump the agency that has already been taken from them and gifted to white men. and, given the way most of the girls' dialogue has been cut so far in favor of other characters... i'm not optimistic.

[fairydares]

Ice and Igni (Chapter 2)

Pt. 1 (definitely read this first) ; AO3

Rating: M (suggestive content especially in this chapter but no smut, though there will be some if I choose to continue with this story. I also want to do a Nalu/Gruvia stone age omake to precede this one maybe but we'll see).

See AO3 for tags and stuff please.

Summary: It isn't the first time Nasha has gotten lost while hunting, but it is the first time one of the males who abandoned her tribe long ago is the one to find her...and it just had to be while she's bathing. All she wanted was to become a stronger huntress than Erza!

I don't own Fairy Tail, only this silly little plotline.

~~~

Chapter 2: Igni Faces Ice

The second her tribe had settled into their new encampment, Nasha had run off, waving goodbye to her family and pretending she couldn’t hear her mother screeching for her to come back.

It was probably selfish of her to ditch her mom, her little brother Luke, and the flying cat Harley, to set up camp by themselves. But she hated setting up camp! It was sooo boring.

Besides, she wasn’t really being selfish; she’d scooped up her bow and spear before she left. Their tribe had been walking as far as they could every day for weeks. They’d already been hungry, but now, several tribe members had meat cravings. Nasha would get a saber-boar or a long-tailed moose, something big enough to fill everyone’s bellies before Erza could beat her to it.

It was only when she realized she was lost that it occurred to her that she maybe, possibly should have stopped to listen to her mom…because she might have said something about the unfamiliarity of the area and needing to be careful to keep track of how far she’d gone.

Usually, Nasha would use her sharp sense of smell to find her way back, but there were so many new and unfamiliar smells around here—plants and animals she’d never seen before! She kept getting distracted which, in turn, made her get even more lost.

Once, she could’ve sworn she caught the scent a person, but even that was strange. Her instincts told her it was definitely human, but on the other hand, it was nothing like the scent of anyone she’d ever met.

Stronger. Deeper. More pungent.

It was so old and faint that she could only catch a wisp of it the once.

She wondered, briefly, if it could be a male. But she quickly dismissed the idea. The women’s tribe had been wandering for years, mostly in search of their men and boys. So far, they’d turned up squat. How likely was it they’d really find them this time?

The males had vanished years ago, when she was just a little girl. Even her dad. The only reason Luke was with the women’s tribe at all was because her mom hadn’t known she was pregnant when her father vanished. If Luke had already been born, the men would have taken him, too. And no one knew why.

Nasha had stopped asking her mom about her dad long ago. Talking about him made her mom too sad. Secretly, though, Nasha was determined to find him and the other men, one day. She’d demand answers regardless of whether he wanted to give them. She’d beat them out of him, if she had to. She wanted to know why she wasn’t good enough for him to stick around and watch her grow up. Nasha was strong. She was one of the best huntresses in her tribe. She always protected her family.

She’d inherited his igni.

“Ooh, what’s that bunny!” she gasped, chasing after a crazy looking rabbit with horns and a purple, spiky tail. It got away, leaving her pouting in the strange woods. She could’ve used stealth to try and kill it, but she knew better than to keep hunting now, no matter how bad she wanted to surpass Erza. The acceptability for risk went way down the second she got lost. Carrying around bloody, stinky dead prey she couldn’t even be sure was edible while lost was a bad idea.

She still acted without thinking sometimes, but Nasha wasn’t as reckless as she’d once been. She’d gained her holy mounds and come into her blood years ago. She’d even grown taller than all the women in her tribe except Cana. With age came experience. With experience came wisdom or death, and Nasha had no plans of croaking any time soon.

It wasn’t long before her head thudded in pain from sniffing so much confusing, new stuff. Her feet hurt, too, and she was sweating like crazy. It was strange for her to be hot (or cold, for that matter) with her power over igni, but the air was humid, sludging through her lungs and making the back of her neck itch. She’d drunk all her water long ago.

The sun blazed near its highest point when she pushed through some bushes with weird, swirly, blue leaves and found a spring. She cried out in relief when she dipped a toe in the water and found it cold. Her pelts and necklaces were still soaring through the hot air when she vanished under the surface with a huge splash.

“Thank Mother Mavis,” she moaned, floating on her back and closing her eyes. As the aches ebbed from her head and feet and the water cooled her sticky skin, she started to worry about how she’d get back, tears forming in her eyes, but she quickly shook it off. Panicking wouldn’t help. She’d refresh herself, fill up her skein with some buried water from over near that limestone she’d spotted while undressing, user her igni to boil it, and then figure out what to do.

She only wished she knew which plants she could use to clean herself, but she didn’t know any of these ones. So Nasha used her hands to scrub water against her scalp, neck, and more pungent bits, ending with the folds of her blessed valley. She flushed slightly as her fingers rubbed that spot that always made her breath go funny and her skin feel hot. The older women in the tribe spoke of such things, at times, but those conversations always came back around to the males and their “sacred rods”, which were some kind of shape-shifting snake they had where their blessed valleys were supposed to be.

At that point, women like her mom, Wendy, and Erza always blushed and forced everyone to change the subject, not that Nasha really cared. She knew some things. She knew the males were sorta like them, but bigger overall. She knew that just talking about them and their sacred rods made the older women act weird. They’d blush and smile and their eyes would get all dark and they’d generally act like freaks.

They’d giggle about the power they claimed to hold over the sacred rods. To Nasha, it seemed pretty obvious that it was the males who held some kind of power over them (except Wendy and Cana…although Cana got flushed and weird when it came to discussions of sacred rods and blessed valleys, truthfully.)

Nasha didn’t really think about it much. She was curious enough to listen a bit when they spoke on it, but not enough to ask about it like her best friend, Jeela, often did. Then again, Jeela was a lot like her mom, Levy; intensely curious even about things she’d never seen.

Nasha was the opposite. Who cared about whatever weird tumors the males had growing out of their blessed valleys? They weren’t around so it didn’t matter. At least not as much as tonight’s meal, tomorrow’s journey, the scent on the breeze, or the shape of the moon.

The only reason she even believed the stories was because she trusted her mom and the other women in their tribe. Plus there was Luke, who never denied the existence of the sacred rods, which meant he must have one. Not that Nasha had ever seen it or had any desire to. She did know he could pee standing up, which was so not fair!

Quickly withdrawing her hand from the folds of her blessed valley, she shook off the weird thoughts and waded out until the water came up to her knees. Turning, she squinted up at the sun and tried to gauge its lean, lifting an arm to cover the peaks on her holy mounds as the hot breeze tickled them distractingly.

There was a rustling sound behind her, making her heart slam into her throat. She whipped around halfway, eyes wide as the rustling grew louder.

A tree branch was pushed aside.

And then he was there.

The male’s scent hit her the second her eyes landed on him. He was downwind so she hadn’t caught it sooner. She knew, then, that the scent she’d caught earlier had been a male’s—not his, though. His was much nicer than that one. Cleaner, with something cold and fresh about it, but the two scents shared a quality she’d never encountered on any female’s scent or even Luke's, though he was only ten.

The older women had not lied about the males’ height and strength. Nasha was by far the most visibly muscular woman in her tribe, but this male’s shoulders, arms, and stomach were just ridiculous. He was also much taller than her or even Cana, still slightly ducking under a branch Nasha had easily walked under when he stilled completely. She wondered how he could even teeter and totter around like that.

A shocked expression consumed his unusual, angular face. A pair of wide blue eyes dropped to her legs, then climbed up.

Meanwhile, Nasha blinked. There was a woman in their tribe with clear, strange blue eyes like that. Juvia, who held such power over izu that rain fell whenever she spoke of her missing male, “Gray-sama,” and son, “Rage-chan” (or something…it was hard to understand what she said when she always sobbed and wailed). The other women would groan whenever her anguish called the izu, but Nasha kind of thought it was awesome. Juvia was so powerful, she called on her element without even meaning to.

Plus using her igni in the rain was good training, so Nasha often used Juvia’s despair to get stronger, standing near the wailing woman and roaring as she generated a blaze from her skin under the downpour until she couldn’t any more. Her mom sometimes yelled at Nasha for it, accusing her of being insensitive, but what was better? Leaving Juvia crying alone in the rain just because you were a baby about getting a little wet?

Other than Juvia, she’d never seen anyone else who had eyes like the ocean under a clear sky…

Except the first male she’d ever seen.

Nasha’s dumbfounded attention stayed on those eyes even while they clambered over every inch of her bare body, barely even noticing how they lingered in certain places—her rear, her mounds, her hair. Then they locked onto hers.

Her lips parted on a gasp. A powerful feeling she couldn’t fight or place swept through her. If familiarity was the sun, then this feeling was the moon. I don’t know him, her mind insisted, almost panicked. But something deep inside her, deeper even than the instincts she always relied on, disagreed. I always have.

The feeling was blown clean out of her head when the male’s cheeks suddenly went bright red, his expression twisted in pain, and he dropped his spears to clutch the spot between his legs. “What…the…hell?” he gritted out in a voice so deep, she nearly flew through the forest canopy. Then he collapsed to his knees.

[horizon-verizon]

What do you think of this interpretation of the Rosby and Stokeworth inherinerences in Fire and Blood?:

https://www.tumblr.com/bbygirl-aemond/713884545316978688/non-book-reader-here-whats-this-about-rosby-and

*EDITED POST* (4/5/24)

("Rhaenyra Triumphant")

A)

Account of the greens taking Rosby and Stokeworth and the two lords swearing fealty to them "under duress" (as OP says):

With a hundred knights and five hundred men-at-arms of the royal household, augmented by three times as many hardened sellswords, Ser Criston marched on Rosby and Stokeworth, whose lords had only recently repented of their allegiance to the queen, commanding them to prove their loyalty by adding their power to his own. Thus augmented, Cole’s host advanced upon the walled harbor town of Duskendale, where they took the defenders by surprise. The town was sacked, the ships in the harbor set afire, Lord Darklyn beheaded. His household knights and garrison were given the choice between swearing their swords to King Aegon or sharing their lord’s fate. Most chose the former. ("The Red Dragon and the Gold")

The OP's words:

i don't think rhaenyra was politically pressured into one answer or another. these two decisions wouldn't have really set a precedent for any of her other leal lords, because they specifically involved lords who had committed treason in front of tons of witnesses. the precedent would have only granted rhaenyra the power to choose a lord's heir after he'd been executed for treason and wouldn't have applied to any of her then allies, so making a woman heir shouldn't have made any of her lords feel threatened.

Yeah, well, it shouldn't have... and yet:

Lords Rosby and Stokeworth, blacks who had gone green to avoid the dungeons, attempted to turn black again, but the queen declared that faithless friends were worse than foes and ordered their “lying tongues” be removed before their executions. Their deaths left her with a nettlesome problem of succession, however. As it happened, each of the “faithless friends” left a daughter; Rosby’s was a maid of twelve, Stokeworth’s a girl of six. Prince Daemon proposed that the former be wed to Hard Hugh the blacksmith’s son (who had taken to calling himself Hugh Hammer), the latter to Ulf the Sot (now simply Ulf White), keeping their lands black whilst suitably rewarding the seeds for their valor in battle. But the Queen’s Hand argued against this, for both girls had younger brothers. Rhaenyra’s own claim to the Iron Throne was a special case, the Sea Snake insisted; her father had named her as his heir. Lords Rosby and Stokeworth had done no such thing. Disinheriting their sons in favor of their daughters would overturn centuries of law and precedent, and call into question the rights of scores of other lords throughout Westeros whose own claims might be seen as inferior to those of elder sisters. It was fear of losing the support of such lords, Munkun asserts in True Telling, that led the queen to decide in favor of Lord Corlys rather than Prince Daemon. The lands, castles, and coin of Houses Rosby and Stokeworth were awarded to the sons of the two executed lords, whilst Hugh Hammer and Ulf White were knighted and granted small holdings on the isle of Driftmark. ("Rhaenyra Triumphant")

Even with those fathers being traitors, after their executions, the houses themselves would not be considered "treacherous houses" unless the new lords/ladies also betrayed Rhaenyra.

To say that Rhaenyra making these girls ladies is to ignore how Rhaenyra herself becoming queen of Westeros would not have any sort or level of impact on Westerosi customs of succession. Her choice to make a girl the heir/next lady after her father would have created a stronger basis for other girls and women to inherit their fathers' (eventually maybe mothers') positions because it gives more strength to a girl/woman's claim in other houses regardless of what their fathers did or didn't do. The result would still be a girl/woman growing to be the lady of her house and she would have to take on the privileges, constraints, responsibilities, duties, and final decisions for the rest of her life. no matter the identity of the father, the house itself would live on if Rhaenyra doesn't decide to just eliminate the entire two houses... which she didn't do. Why? Because she is the first female monarch, the rules are already bent a little and she is in that "supreme" place. She can bend the rules more toward her own needs or just support those who themselves present changes that could help her and them. (She doesn't which is disappointing but also idk, I can't blast her after her losses.)

As the monarch, Rhaenyra already has some influence/power over how other houses and lords will and can safely transfer power. Rhaenyra making Corlys' "grandsons"--Alyn and Addam of Hull--his heirs by officially legitimizing them so they could also inherit the name "Velaryon" is her continuing the succession-tradition & performing an already-customary royal privilege of determining succession rights for other lords. This is already a monarch's privilege and right, but it was critical for the Velaryons, and having a girl come before other men around her itself presents the chance for other girls/women to press for the higher seats, be more considered for those seats, and receive less resistance once they get them or have less trouble having support in case of resistance. Every action Rhaenyra takes when it concerns succession absolutely can become precedent or is already customary. The lords around her are looking at how she acts to adapt their own actions to hers, that's part of the game of feudalism in Westeros.

If anything, if those girls had become the ladies and acted in good faith w/Rhaenyra, it would likely have given more credence to both Rhaenyra's image of mercifulness and wisdom and the girls' loyalty to their queen/superior/monarch. Traits of an ideal leader, for both--making feudal patriarchy work for you, or a chance to emphasize that. Aside from that, if Rhaenyra had granted these houses to these girls she could have inspired a more practical loyalty to her that reduced the risk of what happened when she was forced to flee KL--one of these girls turning her away.

Corlys Velaryon--Rhaenyra's principal supporter, her Hand, the guy who's supplying the fleet she's using, the guy who's financing the entire war besides her own Dragonstone funds allocated for the war, and whose later imprisonment caused many of his followers and soldiers to desert her--strongly argued against her giving those girls the castles. He argues such despite their father being traitors (about the refusal to continue lines of succession through girls regardless of past parents' actions) and there being a true and real precedent for girls to inherit when there is absolutely no direct male relative available. Corlys felt threatened--not directly so, but with the concept of universal female leadership. He saw in Rhaenyra the exception, Rhaenyra needed him, and for her to be overall successful--or anyone from a position like her where they are trying to rise through a society that otherwise wouldn't allow her to--there come times where compromises must happen or you can't see anyway out of said situation where you think you must.

And thinking in Rhaenyra or someone in her shoes thinks how he wouldn't be the only one thinking so; if he, someone on her council and in proximity to her, thinks it is it that much of a stretch to contemplate what others would/could/do? Rhaenyra and others would know that some of her own supporters would have felt similarly and this was a moment where she/the blacks would have felt they needed to prevent as many conflicts or defections as possible.

So honestly, no, the ideas that 1) Rhaenyra wasn't under real pressure or 2) that at least some of the supporting lords wouldn't concerned/threatened with a traitor's daughter inheriting despite their dads being traitors is false. The problem decidedly came from a gender thing.

BTW, Rosby's daughter was 12 and Stokeworth's was 16.

To deny so is to deny the evidence of misogyny being the defining feature of the Dance and a deciding motivation behind Rhaenyra's act of appeasing male lords for her own immediate needs/the progress of her self-doubt and paranoia and the decline of her relationships and bonds of trust as if these things weren't a major factor and didn't lead to her writing her execution letter to Nettles/distrusting Daemon.

B)

OP says this:

it's deliberate that the dismissal of the daughter's claim is mentioned in the same sentence where she denies rhaenyra entry. the poetic justice of that is not a coincidence. whether you think this is grrm narratively punishing rhaenyra for not being feminist enough, or whether you think she's being unfairly punished for being constrained by the patriarchy- it's up to you. i'm personally undecided. but regardless of her intent, her decision is very intentionally implicated in her demise."

I agree that there was poetic symmetry--a kind of "justice"--for Rhaenyra disinheriting the girl ending with the same girl denying her sanctuary after Rhaenyra loses her own inheritance--after being put in danger of smallfolk riots and losing her son and dragons. Another son and heir who will not receive her seat or possessions, as those girls did not until she herself lost. If nothing else for the situational irony, but definitely how it also reflects how the Targs have also sacrificed some of its own members for power, namely its female members. Beginning from Aenys I. House Targaryen hurting itself under the constant need to survive as a strong house while anticipating attacks from outside.

Her going after Nettles was not only her removing a "love" rival but also her trying to legitimize her own and her kids' claims (in her view). There was enough clear-headedness there, why not the Rosby/Stokeworth? Yes, there was pressure on top of her grief probably messing with her sense of safety versus what and how to get there, but it is a fact that she chose the path of least resistance to throw off the pressure when she didn't need to. (Why was Nettles "more" emotionally troubling more than the two traitors' girls? Already explained this in the Twitter thread I linked.)

Again, at the same time, I can see how misogyny and constant patriarchal disparagement of her in her personal history and her own experiences (not created) fueled her self-preserving mindset into a place where more things pushed her into that paranoia and near-Cersei-need to gain any level of control as soon as possible. There to motivate Rhaenyra as with Cersei Lannister killing Robert's bastard kids and the abuse even against her own and Alicent not caring for the raped girls of Tumbleton/pushing for Aegon to be king for her own power. blankwhiteshield explains in this way:

You can have an irredeemable and evil character that the patriarchy still suppresses and affects the psychology of immensely, rendering her a bigger monster. The commentary on the destructive capacity of static social constructs is not lost as a result. A character can turn into the devil of the story due to a world that ceaselessly strips her of her humanity, as well as as a result of the choices she actively makes.

I think Rhaenyra turned tyrant because she reached the limit sooner than we'd like after her not being able to work through her grief and several betrayals and deaths of loved ones occurring in pretty quick succession. Simultaneously, she:

had, performed, & used misogynoir against Nettles

removed inheritances from other noble girls to ensure other lords surrounding KL's support based on Corlys' advice rather than her own husband who gave better advice

and went after one of the biggest bulwarks of her fight against the greens which her own son organized for such (the dragonseeds) through blood purity to get rid of perceived threats...the same bp which threatened her son and gave justification to the contraction of female sexual a general autonomy

She didn't have her avenues to her goal straight AND the Targ-anal paradigm provided her with the ready blueprint of blood purity, misogynoir.

So OP is right to point that out, that there was poetic "justice" if not plain symmetry. We can't move away from the fact that her actions had consequences against her and inevitably led to not having enough time and room to recuperate to go against Aegon again. Ironic since Dragonstone--the place where she will end up after not having that room-and-board denied to her--was her past base away from Alicent to learn how to rule and to grow her lost family.

Both her fault and not: not hers in the beginning, but hers later--psychologically affected by both grief from direct attacks and classist entitlement.

Check out this post by la-pheacienne, who explains how the narrative identifies Rhaenyra as the wronged party and then the person, affected by those wrongs, then brought her own ends by recalling Greek Tragedy narrative structure.

C) Just for Future Note

OP says this: "when she asks the stokeworths for refuge, the male castellan (ruling in the young boy's stead) tells her she can only stay for one night, and then turns her out onto the streets."

This is the account of Rhaenyra being barred from Rosby's castle after fleeing KL:

The accused turncloak Addam Velaryon, born Addam of Hull, had saved King’s Landing from the queen’s foes…at the cost of his own life. Yet the queen knew nothing of his valor. Rhaenyra’s flight from King’s Landing had been beset with difficulty. At Rosby, she found the castle gates barred at her approach, by the command of the young woman whose claim she had passed over in favor of a younger brother. Young Lord Stokeworth’s castellan granted her hospitality, but only for a night. “They will come for you,” he warned the queen, “and I do not have the power to resist them.” Half of her gold cloaks deserted on the road, and one night her camp was attacked by broken men. Though her knights beat off the attackers, Ser Balon Byrch was felled by an arrow, and Ser Lyonel Bentley, a young knight of the Queensguard, suffered a blow to the head that cracked his helm. He perished raving the following day. The queen pressed on toward Duskendale.

House Darklyn had been amongst Rhaenyra’s strongest supporters, but the cost of that loyalty had been high. Lord Gunthor had lost his life in the queen’s service, as had his uncle Steffon. Duskendale itself had been sacked by Ser Criston Cole. Small wonder then that Lord Gunthor’s widow was less than overjoyed when Her Grace appeared at her gates. Only the intercession of Ser Harrold Darke persuaded Lady Meredyth to allow the queen within her walls at all (the Darkes were distant kin to the Darklyns, and Ser Harrold had once served as a squire to the late Ser Steffon), and only upon the condition that she would not remain for long.

("Rhaenyra Overthrown")

Conclusions

The Rosby and Stokeworth decisions were mistakes made under intense pressure; those also made for her immediate needs for a man funding most of her war and supplying most of her fleet to continue to want to support her. And I'm interested in how OP continues to not provide textual evidence to go over.

*EDIT* (8/21/23):

THIS is a great post by @mononijikayu about medieval queens, female rulers, the history of how women in leadership positions were made and seen as threats to the very structure of social “order”, and contextualizing Rhaenyra thru Empress Matilda. I didn’t even know about Matilda’s husband being comparable to Rhaneyra’s Daemon! PLZ READ!!!!

Excerpt:

just as much, along with these fictitious portrayals, more lies are depicted. these women are considered vixens that cause havoc to men by shifting them into desires and danger. through the written word, we see how women are cast in roles of villains in men’s lives. it is because by their conclusive thoughts, women are the only creatures that are able to turn ‘good honorable men’ into despicable creatures who do shameful, deplorable acts for the sake of women’s pleasures. […]  it is within this narrative that ancient chroniclers declare that women were in fact the doom of men. if they were not able to control the dangers posed by the wiles of women, then the foundations of the mighty society they had built would be up in flames.  [...] as i mentioned, these factors of community are written down and preserved. and with that, the example of the ancients were the foundations by which medieval society built itself. the same concepts continued to cause the same issue within society and that was the exclusion of women from participating in the bigger picture of community and state, much so with governing states in their own right—without judgment or disapproval. 

[gwenllian-in-the-abbey]

People need to understand that even our actual real world England only established absolute primogeniture about ten years ago. The first monarchy ever to have absolute primogeniture was Sweden, in 1980. We, as modern people, can recognize that this is pretty fucked up. Obviously, if the Dance were set in a modern day Westeros there would probably be petitions to change the order of succession, protests, rallies, etc., in support of Rhaenyra. We would find male preference primogeniture incredibly anachronistic in a 2024 setting, and we'd wonder how it hadn't changed yet when we have supposedly achieved gender equality.

But in the modern day we also have had several feminist movements that caused such change. Women can vote, sign contracts, and own property. We have divorce, accessible birth control, and abortion rights. Most marriages nowadays are consensual, made between two adults who wish to tie themselves together, not political or practical arrangements made for children by adults. Women can work outside the home, get a complete education, and become world leaders. None of these changes, unsurprisingly, began with the monarchy or with matters of royal succession, and they certainly did not take place in medieval Europe.

GRRM set this conflict in a quasi-medieval world for a reason. He could have set it in the modern world, but he didn't. He clearly wanted us to consider the constraints of the medieval world, so it's very facile to wave away the world and say well clearly people who don't want Rhaenyra on the throne just hate women. The entire world is misogynistic, but making an exception for one privileged woman doesn't change that. In the eyes of his in-world supporters, Aegon isn't the rightful heir simply because he's a man and men make better rulers (after all, they were willing to accept Rhaenyra when it was Rhaenyra vs. Daemon), he's considered the rightful heir because the order of inheritance is one of the constants that not only ensures the stability of the succession (which is essential maintaining peace), but is also one of the few protections a wife-- who is also a woman, even if she is not a dragonriding princess-- has when she enters a marriage. Allowing Rhaenyra to inherit doesn't help the plight of women as a whole unless the same principle is applied to all women across the realm, and Rhaenyra explicitly does not do this because she knows her cause would bleed support if she did. It feels good to support a female heir over a man, especially a man of dubious character, but a precedent that allows a king to pick his favorite child as heir rather than following a set order of inheritance will lead to much more injustice for women in the long run. It's not an improvement.

In any case, it's not unreasonable for people in a medieval framework to act as medieval people and have the priorities of medieval people. As an audience, we can sympathize with unfairness of that system while realizing that people who have to live within that system are not going to act against their own interests. We can only expect them to act morally and ethically within their own historical framework, and while we can debate the ethics of Viserys making Rhaenyra heir and Aegon taking the throne, this is not a moral issue. In fact the only moral issue is whether a throne is ever worth going to war over, and in that both sides are guilty to some extent.

You can 100% don't like rhaenyra and that not misogyny. But if people start deny that she was the rightful heir, and claim aegon is because is a man that sounds a bit misogynistic

I don't give a damn which of these two is the "rightful heir." We aren't smallfolks in Westeros and we don't discuss who will rule us, they're all just imaginary characters. By the way, Aegon and Rhaenyra both had rights to the Iron Throne, which is why some of the people supported Aegon and even the book said that the fact that he was a man made him the rightful heir in the eyes of many. Sorry, they lived in such times. But I personally support the greens because I consider their actions to be the only logical ones in the situation that has developed thanks to Viserys. They took the throne defending themselves, so I think they're right. Plus, I generally find them to be more interesting and fascinating characters.

[navree]

I think, if people are going to comment on how Rhaenyra was usurped, they should no about law or have common sense. Rhaenyra was made heir when it was only her and Daemon but when Aegon was born HE was the one in the throne. As unfair as it is, brothers go before sisters.

Just like Viserys shouldn't have inherited the iron throne. Rhaenys was the child of the oldest son so she should have inherited the throne, not Viserys.

i think the show screwed up in not pointing out that it wasn't necessarily Rhaenys that the Council was deciding on, it was moreso Laenor, and that he should inherit because he was the son of Jahaerys's eldest son, who had been Jahaerys's longtime heir. So the Council wasn't just saying that women couldn't inherit, but that men couldn't inherit through the female line either, which really should have put the kibosh on Rhaenyra or her sons inheriting the throne.

I'm willing to give the Great Council some leeway that I'm not willing to extend to later generations, because the whole point of that was that nobody was really sure what protocol was given how messy the Targaryen succession had been at that point and things were starting to amass to violence (Corlys was gathering a fleet to defend Laenor's claim and Daemon was gathering himself an army), so that's why Jahaerys decided to try a more democratic approach, and it was a majority of people who decided the outcome. There's issues with the fact that it's landowning highborn men who comprised the vote, but it is profoundly more democratic than just straight up birthright monarchy, and Viserys, and more importantly the precedent that selecting Viserys meant, is what they ultimately chose. It was a bad choice because of nearly everything about Viserys, and that Rhaenys likely was better suited, but as an American, I can very firmly state that sometimes democracy gives us decisions that we don't like but we have to deal with anyway (#StillWithHer).

The issue is that nothing was done afterwards to rectify that situation. The law wasn't made any clearer (precedent isn't set in stone law but it's still pretty powerful) and more importantly Viserys didn't do jack shit when he himself was on the throne. Like yeah he named Rhaenyra as his heir when he was widowed and had literally only her as an option as opposed to his psycho brother. But once he had multiple sons, the expectation and the precedent of the Great Council meant that everyone in the entire country is going to see Aegon as de-facto heir. So Viserys should have either abided by that or he should have clarified the law and codified Rhaenyra's succession (and thereby codified absolute primogeniture, at least for the Targaryens, which might be why he never did it) to make it the crystal clear law of the land. Because if all you've got is precedent that goes against Rhaenyra and twenty decades passing since the loyalty oaths were sworn, most people are going to assume that legality is on Aegon's side, even if the legality is unclear.

It's unfair to call Aegon a usurper, because usurpation by definition relies on someone taking power illegally. We can debate whether it was ethically and morally right for Aegon to take the throne all the live long day (just not with me because I don't care, all birthright monarchy is a scam anyway), but whatever law there was remained on his side, and even then the law as it pertained to Targaryen succession was so muddied that there's no law that Aegon could have been breaking by taking the throne. Like yeah, it's a mess, but the Targaryen succession up until that point had been Aegon doing his thing and then passing the throne to his eldest son (straightforward, normal, God bless you Aegon I miss you) and then Maegor seizing the throne from his nephew because shrug.emoji I guess he was crazy, then Jahaerys kinda falling into it after the Iron Throne murked Maegor, and THEN we had the Great Council followed by all of this nonsense. And in all that time no one thought to hammer out the law? We're relying on the precedent of Aegon to Aenys and then the Great Council and only that? It's so insane to me, succession at that point was basically a free for all and stayed that way until Aegon ended up having Aegon the Younger as his heir and cementing the concept of "closest male descendant available is the heir no matter what".

(And no I don't see it as a usurpation of Jahaera because a) no law and b) Jahaera was not fit to be a reigning monarch any more than she was fit to be married if whatever intellectual disability she was hinted at having ended up making her seem half her age mentally, sucks but it is what it is).

[gwenllian-in-the-abbey]

So I definitely agree that this was also a kind of underhanded insult to Rhaenyra, and it was intended to be. I kind of glossed over some things about the book situation given that the post was already long (and it was 3am), but Book!Corlys was seriously pissed off after Rhaenys died and was ready to walk altogether. This was sort of a compromise that was still a "fuck you" to Rhaenyra, but it was also not a total repudiation, it was not a declaration that Joffrey was no longer a Velaryon, it was an insult but one that could be explained away by saying well Joffrey is 11 and betrothed to a Manderly so he'd need a regency for his lordship anyway and Corlys is nearing 80 at this point, Joffrey is just not the best candidate here. Like, absolutely it's an insult, but it's one that can stomached by Rhaenyra, because ultimately she is the one who does grant the legitimization (Corlys petitions to her, and she goes along with it).

I think of course this also speaks to how beholden Rhaenyra was to her supporters, something the show doesn't really get into. We know also that book!Rhaenyra was never about supporting women as a whole inheriting over men, because Rosby and Stokeworth come up around the same time, so while she could have used the girls as a further argument for female line inheritance, she'd end up back in the same place as she does with Rosby and Stokeworth. Corlys was one of the people arguing against giving Rosby and Stokeworth to the daughters, saying it's too risky to establish that precedent, and he's probably correct there, that she's going to lose support if she makes it out that her succession is not a singular exception. But we also know that Corlys wants Alyn or Addam, not Baela or Rhaena (also remember, at this point Daemon is still alive, and Corlys could have feared a Targaryen takeover of Driftmark were he to pass it to Baela or Rhaena, as Baela is betrothed to Rhaenyra's heir and Rhaena could be betrothed to one of Daemon's sons now that Luke is dead). Corlys I think is really quite clever here in how he backs Rhaenyra into a corner to where she has to accept the smaller insult of seeing Joffrey lose Driftmark to a legitimized bastard, because the alternative would mean either Corlys completely repudiating Joffrey as no son of Laenor, or declaring that inheritance should pass through the eldest child male or female, a precedent she can't afford to set.

As for the girls, my read on the situation (and yes, you're correct that GRRM is also to blame for just completely bypassing this completely leaving us to guess at how they feel) is that book!Rhaena and book!Baela are quite a bit younger than their show counterparts, only fourteen, and they're genuinely all aboard the Rhaenyra train, and so they don't feel disinherited because they never felt like Driftmark was their inheritance to begin with, it always belonged to Laenor's sons, and that's something their mom signed onto by betrothing them as children (which I think Laena did not to help out Rhaenyra, but to help out her brother). This is, in the book, a situation they've grown up with and so it's just normal to them, and I think at fourteen and in the middle of the war, they just don't have the agency that their show counterparts do, and they haven't really developed an independent political motivation yet to where they are thinking about this situation as objectively as we are. Baela, as far as she's concerned, is going to be Jace's queen and that's been her reality since she was an infant. Running to Alyn for protection to get her out of the awful marriage Aeg 3's regents had planned for her to Thaddeus Rowan I think shows at the very least that she didn't have any real animosity towards Alyn. I do think years down the line, after being cheated on by Alyn for the 27th time, Baela probably does wonder why grandpa Corlys chose him over her, but at fourteen her head is not in the game yet as anything other than a loyal soldier for the black cause (and I think the way Baela has her own sort of princess of fleabottom era post-war really shows the extent to which her entire identity was wrapped up in being part of this team. She's dad's favorite daughter, Jace's future queen, Baela the Brave who flew out on her tiny dragon to battle Aegon II, and when she loses that identity and is completely sidelined even though she's one of the king's two remaining blood relatives, she becomes unmoored).

(there is another possibility, one @aifsaath and I actually run with even though it's not anywhere in canon, and that is that the Velaryons do not follow Andal succession law but rather follow the male only primogeniture that Jaehaerys I seemed to be in favor of, and it makes a lot of sense, even if it's deliciously ironic given Corlys' support of Rhaenys' claim to the throne, but I didn't really factor it in here because it's pure headcanon until GRRM says otherwise).

The show drops the ball on ALL of this. It's clear to me that what they are trying to do is get to the book outcome of Alyn/Addam inheriting, while also keeping Corlys mostly untarnished in the eyes of the viewers. Book!Corlys would never offer Driftmark to Baela at this juncture because we know from his advice in the Stokeworth & Rosby case that he does not actually think women should inherit before their brothers, and thinks declaring that the future law of the land would be a PR nightmare for Rhaenyra. The show, however, wants us to believe that Corlys 1) is a true proponent of gender equality and 2) would never do anything to harm Rhaenyra's boys, so it has Corlys extend an offer as lip service in order to shut down this line of reasoning, and conveniently, Baela turns down the offer. Now we never have to deal with what would have happened if she had accepted his offer because it never happens and no one was around to hear it. Completely empty and meaningless gesture on the part of the show that signals to the audience that Corlys is a good guy and see no one is screwing Baela over (who cares about Rhaena she's tending babies in the Vale and we've established she's not a sailor).

And I just want to emphasize that this whole problem is entirely of the show's own making. They decided to have Rhaenyra and Daemon estranged for ten years rather than having the extended Targaryen-Velaryon family as closely enmeshed as they were. They aged up the girls so that they could be more active, and then proceed to have them fall in line as easily as the fourteen year olds. They decided to have Rhaenys raise the issue of Baela inheriting in the first place. They are the ones who are avoiding all complex issues surrounding succession in a show about succession by having Corlys support Rhaenyra for ideological reasons rather than practical ones. In positioning Corlys and Rhaenys as the mouthpieces for the show's morality, they utterly defang Corlys and refuse to allow him to have any negative reaction to Rhaenyra's actions. It's bafflingly conflict avoidant in a storyline that is begging for conflict. He should have been confronting her after Rhaenys' death and demanding legitimization for Alyn/Addam to punish her. And these grown up versions of Baela and Rhaena can have a reaction to that which their book counterparts logically wouldn't, because this Baela is more mature, she's thinking about strategy more. But they can't do that if they refuse to let Corlys be the asshole in the first place. So all in all, it's another case of what I really think is the show's most fatal flaw, trying to fit book actions and plot points onto characters who they've characterized differently from their book versions.

What do you think about Baela refusing to inherit Driftmark? And about the fact that Rhaena is seemingly forgotten in the equation?

To start with, it's helpful to look at how the book handles Driftmark's succession. We know that in Fire and Blood neither Baela nor Rhaena end up inheriting Driftmark, instead, Corlys legitimizes Alyn and Addam, and eventually Alyn inherits. The show, of course, has to get to this point too, but the difference between the show and the book is that in the book, the possibility or Baela or Rhaena inheriting is never mentioned. The betrothals between Rhaenyra's sons and Daemon's daughters are made when the children are still babies, not as a some bid to get Rhaenys to support Luke as heir to Driftmark, but likely by Laena as a way to help her brother out of a difficult situation.

Now here's where it gets tricky. In the book, by the time Rhaenys dies, Corlys has had enough. Jace talks him down from his range, makes him Hand, and when Addam and Alyn's mother, Marilda comes forward claiming the boys to be Laenor's sons, and Addam's claiming of Seasmoke seems to prove it, he asks Rhaenyra to legitimize them, which she does. Now, since the boys are officially Laenor's sons, the same as Joffrey, and they are both older than Joff, this puts them ahead of Joffrey in Driftmark's line of succession. This way Corlys can change the succession without repudiating Joffrey, which is important, because if Joffrey is passed over, that's as good as declaring his bastardy. So this way Corlys gets an heir of his own blood, and Rhaenyra still saves face.

Now HotD has Rhaenys raise the possibility of Baela becoming Rhaenyra's heir back in S1, but what the show seems to have forgotten is that this was a move which would have disinherited Lucerys, effectively proclaiming him a bastard the same way the crown ruling in favor of Vaemond would have. That's why Rhaenyra was so desperate to get Rhaenys to accept the betrothals between her boys and Daemon's girls (which, in the show did not happen when the children were babies because the show kept Daemon and Laena in Pentos for ten years), which of course she does (forget for a moment that it's not really her choice who the girls marry). However, ever since that episode aired, fans have brought up the idea that Rhaenyra is usurping Baela's right to Driftmark by keeping her boys in the Velaryon line of succession, and further, that Baela should not be content with being Jace's queen, she should want Driftmark instead, as it is rightfully hers.

And on the first part-- well, yes. Putting bastards into the line of succession is a big no, unless they've been legitimized, which requires they be acknowledged as bastards in the first place. However, this isn't news to anyone. Everyone in the extended Velaryon-Daemyra family is, for the time being anyway, in on the ruse. They all treat the fact that Rhaenyra's boys are bastards as a non-issue, and so the kids are not going to be the ones to say something. Baela cannot declare her intent to inherit Driftmark without betraying people who are important to her. Some fans clearly think she should want this, that she should find it insulting to be betrothed to Jace, but that's not Baela's character. Now, granted her loyalty makes more sense in the book, where she had known Jace since they were babies, but the show is going for loyal Baela who cares for Jace, and she's not going to press the issue on her own.

So the show having Corlys offer Baela Driftmark, and then having her turn it down, seems to be a way to shut down these arguments and clear the way for Addam/Alyn by making it crystal clear that Baela doesn't want Driftmark, while keeping Corlys' own hands clean-- hey, he's not the one choosing Rhaenyra's cause and his ambition to have a Velaryon on the throne over his granddaughter, it's Baela making the choice. At the same time, this conveniently avoids the implications for Rhaenyra's succession because Corlys' offer never goes any further. Corlys cannot truly back either of the girls as heir to Driftmark without declaring Laenor's "line" through Rhaenyra illegitimate, and if he does that, he is declaring Jace illegitimate as well. He might as well declare for Aegon II at that point because he'd be effectively dooming Rhaenyra's cause. And this is, of course, why Baela and Rhaena were never considered heirs to Driftmark in the first place in the book.

As for Rhaena, we already heard Corlys tell Rhaenys he didn't consider Rhaena a suitable heir, and Rhaenys also gave her tacit approval to Alyn and Alyn as heirs. It does seem like the show is presenting them directly as Corlys' sons, rather than Laenor's, which, if they were younger than Laenor would still put them behind his "line" in the order of Driftmark's succession, but I think the show will likely avoid this issue by making at least Alyn older (which is probably why his actor is clearly a grown man, and not a teenager like in the book). All in all, Baela's line is there because the show complicated Driftmark's succession by bringing the girls into it in the first place, something that didn't happen in the book for good reasons, and they had to address the elephant in the room in order to move Addam and Alyn's plots forward. Baela and Rhaena were never going to inherit Driftmark, so the show invents a scenario which puts that question to rest for the audience without uncovering any hypocrisies within team black.

[darklinaforever]

1. I'm going to teach you a very simple thing. The law is the word of the king in the GRRM universe. If Viserys decreed that Rhaenyra was his heir, then she is his heir. No more no less.

2. You spoke of royal men, not of noble men. Otto is not a royal men. And sorry, but House Hightower is not as important compared to other houses in the GRRM universe / in the ASOIAF books... Is just the true. Sorry.

3. My mistake for Vaemond, I don't wear my glasses, having forgotten them at home and being elsewhere. And... where did I get this ? Well in the book. You know, where Aemond, after having massacred the entire Strong house, took Alys as a prize of war ? Which involves rape. And I won't even bother explaining further if you don't understand how Alys is most likely the victim of rape by Aemond...

4. I'm talking about the children of the Greens team. The usurpers, therefore members of the Greens team, not survived and had descendants. It's literally karmic punishment. While Rhaenyra's lineage continued. And, are you aware that the show is not the books and that Daenerys and Jon probably won't get the end of the show at all ? Like, Daenerys isn't going to turn crazy and evil in the GRRM books, that's pretty obvious. The Targaryens are not the big bad guys in the GRRM universe. On the contrary Daenerys and her dragons are what will help against the White Walkers. The threat is cold and ice. And what can defeat that is fire, represented by Daenerys and her dragons. If you are interested, you should check out the Phoenix Ashes YouTube channel. But I'm pretty sure you won't go see it at all.

5. BOTH sides committed equal atrocities ? Really ? The canon is not agreed with you...

6. I've already explained my point of view on the books and you obviously don't understand what the books are about.

7. No. The people don't call her Maegor with teats because she's horrible. I already said why they started calling it that. This nickname was given to Rhaenyra after she raised taxes because the Greens literally emptied the kingdom's coffers. Demonstrating that a female monarch is always judged more harshly than a man even if she is clearly not an equivalent in terms of cruelty. At no time can the increase in taxes, the original reasons for this nickname, put her on an equal footing with Maegor. So yes, it’s a form of misogyny.

8. If the Greens are not the antagonists /villains, why did they start the war for the sole purpose of obtaining power that was not theirs ? Why are they usurpers ? Why has Alicent, an adult woman, harassed Rhaenyra, a child, from the moment she was named heir ? Why is Aegon II a rapist ? Just like Aemond is a rapist, who has also committed countless massacres, being borderline described as a little demon from birth while the dance is mainly told by pro greens sources ? Why is Criston Cole a man without honor ? Why did each member of the Greens team die a horrible and / or pathetic death ? (while most of the members of the Black team have dignified and heroic deaths ?) Why was their entire lineage extinct ? (I remind you that Rhaenyra's lineage is not at all extinct, Daenerys, still alive, is her descendant, just like Jon) If they are not the bad guys, why do they generally not give a damn about people ? Why are they capable of committing the worst crime in Westeros ? Namely killing their own family members ? Why a huge list of war crimes ? The Greens are the antagonists of the Dragon Dance ! They literally started shit for no reason other than greed for power. Why couldn't the Greens be bad guys ? They have all the characteristics. And GRRM has already written plenty of villains. Stop with the myth that GRRM only writes nuanced characters. Your comprehension problems are really big...

I would also like to clarify a few things.

Even if Rhaenyra and Team Blacks don't specifically fight for feminism and women's rights, if Rhaenyra becomes queen it will set a precedent for the right of women to inherit the throne! Unlike Aegon who will not help this aspect in society. (needing to change)

Then, the Blacks team, although fighting for their team and Rhaenyra to have the throne, it is not just a question of power. It is also the fact of respecting the law / the word of the king, of honoring his promises and his oaths. Fighting for the honor and future of their house and their family. Also, a form of technical change.

The Greens' fight is due to the pure ambition of power, to steal what is not yours / to be a usurper, to go against the law / the will of the king, that oaths and promises do not worthless, fighting for archaic patriarchal traditions with keeping men first.

Not to mention the purity of blood with their aversion to children born out of wedlock while the Blacks team essentially has nothing to do with it... (As proven by the fact that Jacaerys is not at all mostly contested as heir... And then also the simple fact that there is no real proof on the paternity of the children and that only the Greens were interested in this to discredit Rhaenyra)

You do not agree ? Not my problem if you don't have reading comprehension.

Honestly, you're probably one of the worst people I've ever chatted with on tumblr. You are completely biased. And I've clearly had my fill of your nonsense. Oh and also : Frankly. You’re everything that’s wrong with society. You disgust me. You are stupid.

Being a female viewer and hating Criston Cole is deranged.

I have to get this off my chest. The blind hatred that Criston is receiving from women is insane and I’m going to explain why.

For context, I am talking about Show Criston, not Book Criston. Comparing two standalone versions of a story is silly.

I cannot wrap my head around the fact that so many women, who are the primary victims of utilitarian relationships, would ever come together and shit on Criston for enduring such a situation.

I’m sorry, but how many of you have been used by men? How many of you have been reduced to one night stands, situationships and placeholder wives? How many of you have been deemed “not good enough” to be an exclusive partner? I log into tiktok and I see NOTHING but stories of broken women who are just used for sex, money, care and whatnot by men, and then they are tossed away like worthless trash while said men continue their pursuit of the ideal woman. Being used by men just for sex and being denied the status of girlfriend, let alone wife, is probably one of the worst plagues women are experiencing in the western world because the MOMENT we were emancipated, men understood that they don’t owe us shit anymore and instead of treating us with respect, they decided to grab whatever they can and give nothing back. Do not tell me that there are women out there that are fine with this arrangement because the multiple “GWM while I tell you about the guy that was with me for 12 years and then married someone else” tell a different story, one of multiple women’s dignities being trampled by hungry men. My heart breaks for every woman (EVERY woman, cis, trans, EVERY woman) who has been called by a man she loves just for sex, for every woman whose man never wanted to be seen in public with her, for every woman who had to hear that her man is not ready for a relationship only to witness him getting engaged to another woman 2 weeks after. I hope you overcome this and become stronger and I am glad that we are finally supporting one another.

How can we then, the women who are helping other female victims rise up and speak out against this kind of abuse, push Criston down and tell him to suck it up and accept being Rhaenyra’s plaything? Have we no mercy? Are we so hungry for revenge against men that we’d want them to endure the same humiliation that we did, as if one fictional man’s suffering would bring us justice? Are we so jealous that Criston didn’t sit down and just take it like the rest of us, but instead spoke up and removed himself from that situation? Or are we so gullible that we accept what the screenwriters shove down our throats and unknowingly support the patriarchic view that if you’re being used by someone you should just accept it?

I can hear some of you arguing that “Oh, this is different because Rhaenyra is royalty!” as if being used and tossed by a powerful person somehow makes the situation any better? Would it be okay if a rich person wanted to constantly use you for sex while he keeps looking for a better woman to be by his side, just because he values his wealth and status more? Rhaenyra straight up sneered at the idea of a simple life with him. She straight up told him that HE is not worth as much as her crown. OUCH. Even though I can’t even begin to imagine the pain of being told you are not enough by your loved one, it was Rhaenyra’s right to choose what her priorities are, but WHY would he have to accept being her sidepiece? “These were different times”: does this make it any less devastating for the victim? And he was a victim because Rhaenyra still used Criston and misled him by constantly complaining about how she HATES her duties for YEARS and then luring him to break his oath. Do you think he would have still slept with her if he was aware that moments ago, Rhaenyra was begging on her knees to be fucked by Daemon and only turned to Criston because her first option was no longer available? Like, the man was contemplating having sex with her and resisted her for a good fucking while, so imagine how quickly he would have turned around and walked out that door if he had that information beforehand. You know why? Because he loved her. He loved her to the point that he broke his oath for her, the oath of a station he FOUGHT FOR IN A WAR. He shed blood and sweat and risked his life for the mere opportunity to gain that position. This was ALL he had, he came from NOTHING and he was still willing to toss it all away for Rhaenyra not once, but twice. It wasn’t just sex he wanted because we never see him have sex again after that. He became vulnerable and gave up everything that he was to be with Rhaenyra. He was willing to abandon his whole identity for her sake. Is this not what the ideal partner is? Ready to abandon everything for your shake? Everything he fought for, tooth and nail? Was he unreasonable in thinking that Rhaenyra was willing to do the same for him? Was he crazy to think that because he was ready to put everything he FOUGHT for aside for her shake, Rhaenyra would also put aside a duty she was handed and actively seem to hate for him too? Fuck no! After hearing her constant talk about how she hates her father, her duties, her refusal to wed other men, how she is trapped as a princess, how people have no idea how much it SUCKS being her, why would he not assume that she’d be willing to give it all up for him, as he’d do for her We never see Rhaenyra even TRY to be a ruler, just complain about it. Of course it would be a fucking shock to him hearing her say “Lol dude, I actually do kinda want this”.

Criston was actually the only person in the series that wanted Rhaenyra for her, not her money or crown. I’m not saying she had to follow him, it was her right to refuse him, but his willingness to lead a simple life with just her has got to mean something. And don’t give me that “he only wanted to redeem his honour by marrying her” crap, because first of all Criston nutted up and admitted everything to Alicent and was ready to face death without EVER blaming Rhaenyra for anything, and second of all, oh no, how dare a human being have ethical values and desire to live with dignity in society’s broad light rather than move in the shadows as the princess’s secret boytoy! Bad, bad Criston for feeling you have to atone for your sins. Maybe we as people have become so corrupt that we envy those who wish to walk a virtuous path in life. Or maybe y’all have become so fond of the unhinged unapologetic character trope because it feels “original” (even if it’s ridiculously overused nowadays) that you’ve actually forgotten what characters with good morals are. Like, picking your fave war criminal and rolling with them because you enjoy good drama, especially in a show that’s meant to provide entertainment, is one thing, but passionately stating that Criston had to submit to that humiliation is something else entirely.

Finally, let’s ditch the Criston being a misogynist bullshit because he had NO issue obeying Rhaenyra before their affair or Alicent. And he is ALWAYS true to himself and his values, because even after everything he endured, he did not use Alicent’s anger as an excuse to take revenge on Rhaenyra and harm her children. Criston never betrayed her, Rhaenyra used him and he walked away and he went towards the only person who seemed to spare him some sympathy and understand him and not condemn him for his crimes even if he hated himself, which is typical victim mentality. And don’t get me started on the Joffrey incident because y’all tore Cole to SHREDS for it. Joffrey had it fucking coming. You don’t go up to people’s faces, especially ones you don’t know, threaten them by telling them you know their secret, a secret that SHAMES them and burdens them to the point they’re ready to commit suicide, and all but directly call them a whore. What the fuck did he think was going to happen? They’d shake hands? Piss off. Let this be a lesson to anyone that doesn’t know how to keep their mouths shut and their noses out of other people’s business. Also, mocking his suicide attempt makes my stomach turn. Just take a moment to consider all the young women who just like him, reluctantly surrendered their virginities to men only to find out they were nothing but sex dolls in their eyes, all these girls whose trust led to their secret being spread and them getting ridiculed and slut shamed for it: how many girls have taken their own lives because they found living with such a burden unbearable?

For the love of everything you hold sacred, please wake up sisters. The narrative that you can be used by someone powerful and you have to accept it because that’s the way things are is a man’s construct. Do not let them fool you.