#doing nothing would have sealed sam's fate. doing something gave him tools to fight back. either way sam was fucked

[incesthemes]

this is a great point, and i'd like to expand on it if that's all right.

because i think when you take adam into consideration, the idea that everything he's done to and for sam and dean has been ultimately about sam. which would imply that he's known sam was azazel's target more or less from the beginning, or at least by the time he found out about adam (either way, this is a long time). if john had thought adam had the same risk of being hurt or killed as sam or dean, then i'm sure he would have found a way to train him in self-defense if nothing else. but he didn't! he let adam experience a perfectly average life. he died gruesomely to supernatural beings (twice) anyway, but that's mostly irrelevant to john's part of the story.

this asks the question: why did john raise them differently? and the natural conclusion of it is that he saw a threat in sam and dean's life that he didn't see in adam's. obviously it's not a question of whether or not john loved any of them more than the others—i don't think you'd go hundreds of miles out of your way to take your kid to a baseball game if you didn't love him, and i don't think you'd sacrifice your life to save your son's if you didn't love him, and i don't think you'd put so much emphasis on keeping your kid safe that you structure your entire life around it if you didn't love him. john loved all of them; he just expressed it differently.

and so i think that rather than being an indiscriminately paranoid survivalist nutjob, he (correctly) assessed a certain level of danger posed to sam and dean that he didn't see with adam. it's a very reasonable assessment to make considering everything started in sam's nursery: he knew from the get-go that sam was being targeted and he would need to be protected from the thing that got away and potentially other threats working to the same goal.

it probably didn't have much to do with dean: he was collateral, and john more or less raised him with that in mind. and by this i mean it in the sense that john believed any danger dean was in was extending from sam rather than The Bad Guys going after dean specifically. so as a result dean was raised to protect his brother—because dean didn't need extra protection, any more than john himself could provide. dean was turned into a soldier because sam was the target, and sam needed protection that john couldn't give all on his own.

and sam was sheltered as a result. he was the innocent to protect, not the soldier fighting the war. it's a complicated family structure that was evidently detrimental and harmful to sam and dean, but at the same time it's rooted in a very real understanding that sam was in constant danger. there's no healthy and good choice to make in that situation because the "healthy and good choice" was absolutely going to get his kids murdered or taken away or corrupted or whatever else the evil that stalks the night was going to do to sam—and dean, as collateral. adam, john believed, was spared from this, because adam was unconnected to sam. and he probably kept adam a secret from sam and dean in order to ensure that safety.

he was trying to play a losing game with no good outcome. adam's existence implies two things: that preparing sam and dean to hunt monsters kept them safe and alive even if at the cost of a healthy childhood, and that there was never anything john could have done that would have kept his kids safe. a contradiction that highlights how impossible his decision was and how hard he tried anyway.

Thinking about how we do have an example of John treating one of his sons like a normal kid instead of training him to be a hunter.

Adam.

Who almost got eaten by a ghoul then was immediately manipulated into serving as Michael’s vessel and ended up in Hell.

This is not to say that John handled things well with Dean and Sam, or that he wasn’t neglectful or (depending on your definition or interpretation of canon) abusive. Because clearly, he was.

But if the question is, was he right to obsessively prepare Dean and Sam for a world full of supernatural things that want to kill them or use them? Or was he right to be paranoid and to not want to let them stray too far? Then I think it’s worth considering the counterfactual we do have.

[hippychick006]

4.16 - On the Head of a Pin

Another great episode, I can’t believe they pack so much into 40 minutes and none of it feels like I’ve got whiplash, because it’s all connected to a single thread and not multiple threads in the same episode.  I think it’s also the first episode that uses the burnt wings special effect on a dead angel.  I like it.  Having suffered through 10 seasons of angels, I like it even more that another one of them is dead.

Sam’s driving, so good opportunity for a broment. They are on their way to meet Ruby, and Dean is tired and pissed, he says “Pamela didn’t want anything to do with this and we dragged her back into it, Sam.”  Huh?  Quickly checks the previous episode and yeah, no Dean, it was your plan and you gave the whole end of the world speech to Pamela so why are you shouting at Sam?

Trying not to get annoyed at the narrative, we move on.  

They arrive at the motel and Uriel and Castiel are in the room waiting for them.  At least 2,000 years in existence and they haven’t learned basic etiquette of knocking on a door and waiting to be invited inside.

Intense scene between the angels and Sam and Dean. Cass appears to have been demoted and Uriel is now calling the shots. They are needed - or turns out that Dean is needed, because something is killing angels and they need to find out what.  They’ve been torturing Alastair to find out, but their methods have failed, and believe that Dean being Alastair’s student is the most qualified to get the information.  Dean refuses, which counts for jack and with a dramatic flap of wings, Sam’s left alone in the motel room.

When they arrive at where Alastair is being held, Dean tries to leave, but Uriel stops him.   Dean says, “You can make me do whatever you want.  But you can’t make me do this.”  I put this line of dialogue up there with Sam’s in Season 10, “I will kill you...dead.”

Dean asks to speak to Castiel alone and makes a wise crack about Uriel’s sense of humour, Castiel responds, “Uriel is the funniest angel in the garrison, ask anyone.”  Dean asks Castiel why Uriel seems to have put a leash on Cass and Cass responds that his superiors have begun to question his sympathies.  He’s getting too close to the humans in his charge which can impair his judgement.

Dean ultimately agrees to help.  Alastair is not impressed and sings “Heaven, I’m in heaven...”  I like he’s tapping his bare feet while he sings.

Dean wheels a covered cart over and takes off the cover to reveal torture tools.  And thank you show for the mob!boss Dean scenes during this episode.  Dean doesn’t respond to Alastair’s taunts except when he says. “How about for all the things I did to your daddy?”  Going after a Winchester?  That’ll do it.

Back at the motel, Ruby’s arrived.  He wants her to help him find Dean because he doesn’t think Dean is strong enough to face Alastair.  I don’t think Sam’s wrong on this one.

Back to mob!boss Dean, Alastair taunts that his daddy was on the rack for 100 years and didn’t take the offer.  That he was made of something unique.  Dean appears to be ignoring him as he prepares his torture tools.  Alastair continues “But daddy’s little girl, he broke.  He broke in thirty.”

mob!boss Dean gamely shrugs it all off and walks over to Alastair, “Let’s get started.”  Cue to outside and Castiel listens to Alastair’s screams.

Back at the motel, Ruby casts a spell which causes a map to completely burn except a small circle which indicates where Dean is.  And why don’t they use this spell more often?  Or even better, get tracker chips for one another since one is always needing to be found.

We finally find out that Sam’s been drinking Ruby’s blood.  And not in a sexy vampire way.

Back to Alastair and mob!boss Dean.  Torture session is still going on, but we pan away and see a tap is turning on its own, leaking water onto the enochian trap.

Anna turns up to speak to Castiel.  Her human body would have burned up in the explosion when she got her grace back, but Anna has apparently called in some old favours.  Alastair gets louder at that point and I swear he’s shouting “bull fking shit”. Possibly that’s just me.  Anna tells Castiel to stop the torture session before it ruins Dean.  Castiel responds, “Who are we to question the will of God.”�� Anna says she doesn’t think it is god’s will, but one of their superiors.

Briefly back to mob!boss Dean and Alastair is coughing up blood now.

Back to Anna and Castiel.  Anna says, “The father you love.  You think he wants this?  You think he’d ask this of you?  You think this is righteous?”  Castiel can’t look at her and she continues, “What you’re feeling?  It’s called doubt.”  Anna implores Castiel to work with her, but he brushes her off, saying he’s nothing like her and tells her to go.

Back to the room and Alastair tries to villain monologue with what the master plan was.  mob!boss Dean’s not interested and pours salt into his mouth.  Alastair, “Something caught in my throat... I think it’s my throat.”    Alastair keeps talking though and eventually says, “And it is written that the first seal shall be broken when a righteous man sheds blood in hell.  as he breaks, so shall it break... We had to break the first seal before any others.  Only way to get the dominoes to fall, right?  Topple the one at the front of the line.... when we win, when we bring on the apocalypse and burn this earth down, we’ll owe it all to you, Dean Winchester.”

Dean’s visibly trying to control himself at this revelation.  Alastair doesn’t see because Dean’s turned away from him, but what Alastair does see is the trap is now broken.  Dean turns around to kill Alastair but he’s now standing right behind him.  

Dean is getting beaten badly and where tf is Castiel?  Alastair picks Dean up by the throat and holds him against the pentagram cross.  “You got a lot to learn boy, so I’ll see you back in class bright and early Monday morning.”

Castiel has finally arrived and stabs Alastair with the demon killing knife, but Alastair has stronger powers. Angel/Demon fight and Castiel is hung on a handy coat rack while Alastair performs the spell to send him back to heaven.

Sam’s arrived though and with no visible effort holds Alastair against the wall and starts torturing him only using his powers.  He gets the confession out of Alastair within 1 minute - and why didn’t we do this earlier?’

Alastair taunts Sam to send him back to hell if he can.  Sam smiles, “I’m stronger than that now.  Now I can kill.”  Castiel gets whiplash looking at Sam after he says that and watches on concerned as Sam kills Alastair.  Not shedding any tears over here.  Dean’s torturer is dead.

Dean’s in the hospital and looks in a bad way.  Sam’s pissed and demands Castiel heal Dean.  Castiel refuses and Sam says that Castiel and Uriel caused Dean to be in there, because they can’t keep a simple trap together.  That the whole thing was pointless in the first place because the demons aren’t responsible.  Something else is.

Castiel disappears to have a conversation with Uriel.  Castiel suggests their father isn’t giving the orders, that there’s something wrong.  Uriel nopes out.  Castiel calls for Anna and when she appears, he tells her he’s considering disobedience but he doesn’t know what to do.  He asks her to tell him what to do.  Anna responds: “Like the old days? No, I;m sorry.  It’s time to think for yourself.”

Castiel is back in the prison room investing the trap and sees the tap that was turned on.  Uriel appears and long story short, turns out Uriel’s been trying to recruit angels to the side of Lucifer.  Those that refuse, he’s killed.  He makes the same offer to Castiel and Castiel refuses.  They fight, Uriel gets the upper hand, but luckily Anna turns up and kills him with the angel blade.  I think this is the first time this weapon is used?  I like the weapon, I just don’t like the inconsistency of who it can be used on.

Castiel is in the hospital room with Dean and he’s off the vent and awake. They have an important discussion where Castiel confirms Alastair didn’t lie, that Dean broke the first seal before they could get to him (though they did try to rescue him before it was broken - I think Castiel truly believes that).  Dean asks why they didn’t just leave him there and Castiel answers, “It’s not blame that falls on you, Dean, it’s fate.  The righteous man who begins it is the only one who can finish it.  You have to stop it.”

Dean says he’s not strong enough, that he can’t do it.  He’s not the man either of their dad’s wanted him to be.  “Find someone else, it’s not me.”  Poor Dean.  And poor destihellers, a lot of Castiel and Dean content and not a single second points to Destiel.

[mittensmorgul]

Do you ever miss old Cas? Like I know his character development has been super important, and everything he's becoming has been all about who he truly is, and not an angel puppet. But sometimes I watch older episodes and I miss early Cas. I miss the "You should show me some respect," the "I'm not here to perch on your shoulder," and the "we had an appointment" kind of moments. Idk, I love Cas all around, but sometimes I miss his early mystery and badassery.

Hi there! And no, I don’t really miss “old Cas.” But I think the three examples you’ve chosen aren’t really similar at all. The first two are literally what you described as being “an angel puppet.” They’re both from the same conversation at the end of 4.02, when Cas’s only goal was to manipulate or threaten Dean into doing Heaven’s bidding. Because again, context matters. Folks throw these lines around a lot, but so often the larger surrounding meaning is just losing the larger point here:

DEAN: I thought angels were supposed to be guardians. Fluffy wings, halos -- you know, Michael Landon. Not dicks.CASTIEL : Read the Bible. Angels are warriors of God. I'm a soldier.DEAN: Yeah? Then, why didn't you fight?CASTIEL: I'm not here to perch on your shoulder. We had larger concerns.

and

CASTIEL: Three days ago, you thought there was no such thing as me. Why do you think we're here walking among you now for the first time in 2,000 years?DEAN: To stop Lucifer.CASTIEL: That's why we've arrived.DEAN: Well... bang-up job so far. Stellar work with the witnesses. That's nice.CASTIEL: We tried. And there are other battles, other seals. Some we'll win, some we'll lose. This one we lost. Our numbers are not unlimited. Six of my brothers died in the field this week. You think the armies of Heaven should just follow you around? There's a bigger picture here. You should show me some respect. I dragged you out of Hell. I can throw you back in.

This isn’t “badass Cas” here. It’s Cas not caring one whit about Dean, as long as Dean sticks to the mission. Dean is nothing more than a tool to Cas at this point. And he might not be self-aware enough to understand it yet, but Cas is equally a tool of Heaven at this point. There is literally nothing about either of those lines that I would wish on Cas again.

Now for the “We had an appointment,” from 5.04, that was Cas interfering with Zachariah and Heaven’s plans to save Dean, and was more of a moment of comic relief (and literal relief) that he’d saved Dean from Zachariah, you know? This was more than a year’s worth of character development removed from those quotes from 4.02.

But, this in mind, how is Cas any less badass NOW than he was back then? I just... don’t understand the complaint, I guess?

Granted, Cas spent the first several episodes of s13 being actively dead, so that really limits the amount of verbal badassery he was capable of at the time... but knowing all along that Cas would not only be “dead” for a few episodes, but that the entire purpose of this was for us to witness Dean’s specific struggle with his loss, I was more than happy to play along with the show. And because I didn’t let myself become bitter over these facts, 13.04 was one long, glorious Fuck You letter from Cas to his long-term struggle with depression.

(the post below this on my blog is actually a reply to someone asking about Billie’s line to Dean in 13.05, “I say live.” And I suggest that it applies equally to Cas vs the Empty Entity)

Castiel’s personal growth arc since the end of s6, including the majority of s7 while he was again literally dead, and then returned with no memories only to regain them to his own personal horror, has been about his guilt and penance for the things he did, for how badly he fucked up in s6. And then how much he struggled with putting any of that to rights.

I could pull a long series of out-of-context quotes that sound terribly Sassy Cassie, if that would make you feel better about any of this. I know there’s at least one post going around about how Cas is just as sassy as ever, with quotes and gifs as evidence. First off, it makes me really uncomfortable to reduce a character to a few random catchphrases like that. But also, just like Dean, his arc has largely been about overcoming depression. And as such, he’s struggled through A LOT of introspection and come to some major revelations about who and what he is, and who and what he wants to be.

I mean, his personality hasn’t fundamentally changed, but his understanding and motivations and goals certainly have.

His desire to stay in Purgatory in s8 because he couldn’t face what he’d done was one of his initial reactions to this. He’d rather run away and suffer eternally alone in Purgatory than confront what he’d done to Heaven in the name of stopping another apocalypse.

He was so hopeful and willing to believe in Metatron’s plan to “fix” heaven, to shut the gates and lock all the angels inside, because of what Naomi had put him through (torture, reprogramming... I mean we learned A LOT about just how resilient Cas is, and just how much he’s struggled through just to get to this point, where he finally understands exactly how much Heaven had tried to control him like a puppet or a tool.) But he’s so desperate to find a way to atone, to right his wrongs, to make up for the damage he’d done, that he was blind to the truth of how he was being manipulated yet again.

He struggles directly with humanity-- his own humanity-- in s9, before he once again does things because he feels he has no other choice. He was ready to die in 9.09 until he learned that whatever angel Dean had dealt with in order to save Sam back in 9.01, it hadn’t been Ezekiel, but someone who’d lied to Dean about his identity... and Dean needed to know this. So instead of sacrificing his life, Cas sacrificed his own agency yet again, stealing the grace of another angel. I think we can all agree that this particular bit of “badassery” is something we’d never like to see from him again. It’s on par with Dean selling his soul to save Sam, meaning it is an objectively horrifying choice. And that fact is pointed out to Cas repeatedly, by pretty much every other angel character in the narrative over the next season and a half.

And aside from his late s10 job as babysitter and pork rind delivery service, he really hasn’t been not-badass. He’s finally free of Heaven’s “reprogramming,” and for the first time in his billions of years of existence, he doesn’t have an instant “fix” available to him to erase his memories or reboot his operating system. He finally has to DEAL with the cumulative fallout from all his past choices and actions.

So like no other angel ever, Cas has had an opportunity to work through all of this, to understand free will, to understand humanity, and it has made him a better individual. Yes, he’s struggled with depression, and with the consequences of his actions and past choices, and he’s felt unworthy or useless or... like he’s poison.

I mean, these aren’t the typical things angels feel, you know? Because Cas has become so much MORE than that. I think this is why the petty-sounding complaint that Cas is no longer a badass, or that he’s become weak, makes me so angry.

Yes, I’m sorry. I’m watching his entire character arc unfold, seen him fight through some of the most heart wrenching battles against depression (both literal and metaphorical), struggled to reclaim his own personal arc from the whims of fate over and over again, only to emerge personally strengthened each time like steel put through the forge to temper it, and then I see comments on his arc like this, and it just makes me want to scream.

Cas’s entire story has always been about agency. His early “mystery” was the fact that he was unknown and unknowable as a tool of Heaven’s will, you know? Why in the hell would I miss that?

If you think Cas isn’t 10000% MORE badass than he ever was as Heaven’s malleable tool, might I suggest rewatching s12 and s13. If you want Cas-flavored snark, there’s plenty of that. I could spend an hour pulling quotes for you, if you’d really like. But this isn’t about snappy one-liners or Cas being a badass warrior, or him winning fights by being the more ruthless and uncaring participant.

His fight against three other angels in 13.07, for example... he had several opportunities to kill those angels and technically “win” that fight. But Cas is a better person than that. Three other angels were intent on capturing or killing HIM (which didn’t really seem to matter to them...), while Cas was intent on NOT harming them, you know? In a fight, it puts him at a disadvantage, but morally it puts him on the high ground.

Then during all his conversations with Lucifer, Cas gave just as good as he got. If that’s not the best flavor of Sassy Cassie, I don’t know what to tell you.

So... Cas has once again had his agency stripped from him, because that has ALWAYS been his struggle-- both in-story and on a metanarrative level-- and his story falls apart if it suddenly becomes something else. This is how his character development has always run, and how it will always run, until the last turn of the narrative wheel when we finally get to the end of the entire series.

This is how stories work.

And Cas is one of the most intensely profound character development arcs ever written. I can’t stand that his struggles with agency, depression, self-understanding, free will, happiness, love, and purpose can be reduced so frequently to whether or not he’s performing badassery in a particularly proscribed fashion at any given moment. It just seems... petty. And misses the point entirely.

I guess I take it so personally because I recognize stuff I’ve personally fought through in Cas’s arc... black depression and worthlessness... and hell if fighting my way out of that wasn’t one of the biggest (and yet still somehow ongoing) fights of my entire life. So to have someone suggest that somehow this still just isn’t good enough for them feels like a very personal Fuck You, you know? So I’m sorry if this came off a bit angry and defensive.

Might I suggest that Cas doesn’t need to punch things or kill things or terrify things all the time in order to be badass? Sometimes simply fighting through the worst of his personal struggles with himself and living to see the sun shine another day is far more badass than stabbing some idiot in the face.

Cas’s struggle with his own agency, with his own free will, with his own choices about who and what he is and wants to do and to be IS his story. And it’s insanely badass to me.