#doesn't make the kinslaying less bad

[eri-pl]

Doing the reread of Unnumbered. @dfwbwfbbwfbwf I'm 99% certain that Thingollo canonically should have given the Silmaril to Maedhros (on first prompt which is shortly after he gained it): Melian advises him to do it. Which very much means it's the official Right Thing To Do. Thought you will like this detail.

(Also: Maedhros leaves the issue.)

[feanoryen]

Hot take

The first Kinslaying was the only unjustified one.

The Teleri were innocent people who just didn't want to give up their boats.

If the Noldor wanted to go to Middle Earth so bad they should have tried harder at convincing the Teleri, built their own boats, or tried the Helcaraxe.

Luthien, Dior, & Elwing had NO RIGHT to the Silmarils however. Stealing stolen goods doesn't make you any less of a thief if you know who the rightful owner is and CHOOSE NOT TO GIVE IT BACK.

While I love Elwing, the Feanorians absolutely had the right to fight her and her useless nepo baby father for something her ancestors stole from the guy who stole it from their father and killed their granddad.

The Silmarils belonged to Feanor and his heirs PERIOD.

If you want to fight me about light or whatever not being theirs, let me tell you this, if you pick a leaf off public property, can you not keep it?

Of course you can, the light of the trees was public property.

[queerofthedagger]

For the wip game: because i am nothing if not predictable time-travel Maedhros?!?!? I AM SEATED 😍 also omg mona. that's. a lot of wips.

Andyyyy!! <3 it IS I am once again asking for a rich benefactor to pay me to write fic without requiring anything in return goddamnit

Timetravel!Maedhros is actually kinda funny because I came out of a nightshift at 7am one night and got possessed like mad typing out 2k words worth of notes into my phone on the way home and just couldn't stop. The basic premise is just

"Maedhros jumps. Maedhros wakes up. Nobody is less thrilled by this than he is."

But as like, specifically the beginning of it all from Fingon's POV. Maedhros lands back a few days before the Darkening of the Trees and it's not so much a fix-it as it is a like... making things a little bit better and others a lot worse lmao. Like he won't be able to stop the Darkening, or Finwë's death, or even stop his brothers from swearing the Oath. In fact, the fact that he doesn't swear the Oath will have such a spiralling effect on his relationships with his family. He tries to stop the kinslaying and fails, he tries to at least to stop Fingon from joining but Fingon's almost killed by a stray arrow and Maedhros sees red and well would you look at that suddenly they're both bloodied again. Too bad.

He does obviously not join his father crossing first, hoping it might stop Fëanor from burning the ships, but it doesn't. At least he won't be captured but in turn he then lacks the leverage to wave his kingship to Fingolfin. And so on and so forth - the twist here is really that it's 1. not that easy to unfuck even with some foreknowledge/hindsight, and 2. just Pre-Darkening Fingon being suddenly confronted with end-of-canon Maedhros, because no matter how much Maedhros tries to act normal (lol) he's obviously not going to be... particularly successful. He does not want to tell Fingon (or anyone, for that matter) either though because that would mean admitting all that he has done the first time around and the sheer shame and guilt and horror of that. well.

Obviously, eventually, in snatches, Fingon will find out and it'll honestly just serve to make them even more codependent and insane about each other in new exciting ways but !! you know. That is the basic idea at least, it's gonna also be some time till I get around to that but whenever I think about it I can think of new things to make them worse with 😌

[veneritia]

siblings & questions tag

Thank you @alintalzin for the tag! This is both the best and worst game for the vi aetier siblings so of course I gotta do it

Who looks the most like Dad?

Charles takes that spot easily enough, and is probably gonna follow Dantalion's footsteps with having "the fair" as an epithet. But all of the siblings (like any vi Aetier) have the trademark silver eyes.

2. Who looks the most like mom?

Euphemia does but with Fenice as a close second. Euphemia is essentially Eudocia in miniature both in looks and in attitude, though Euphemia has a bit more of a ruthless streak. Fenice looks remarkably like Titania in coloring but she doesn't have Titania's vibes, yknow?

3. Who eats the most?

Konstantine does but he's also one of the pickiest eaters. Whatever food he does like though he makes sure to eat a ton of, and his mother indulges him anyway.

4. Who has been in the weirdest situations?

Fenice. Her whole life has been weird ever since she was born and is probably just gonna get weirder. I mean, who else has weirdly vivid dreams about attending a banquet with your dead ancestors where the host may or may not be (a) god?

5. Who sleeps the most?

Basil, but he's basically a toddler so he needs his naps.

6. Most stable romantic life?

Well, of the three that are old enough to have a romantic life (Fenice, Charles, Euphemia)...none of them. For one, Fenice has zero interest in romance and will continue to have zero interest in romance (very ironic considering who her parents are). For another, Fenice is already married but it was arranged and she and Nike are indifferent to and loathe each other respectively. Charles and Euphemia's eventual marriages are a matter of state, so any 'official' relationship is kind of off limits. They both have a long line of suitors and have been known to enjoy flirting here and there, but other than that they've never entered any actual romantic relationship.

7. Worst habit of each one?

Fenice's tendency to think the worst of everyone and especially herself. Charles developing tunnel vision when pursuing something he wants at the expense of everything else Euphemia never failing to give back-handed compliments when she talks Konstantine just kind of wanders off in the middle of conversations when he's bored (he's a kid) Basil has terrible table manners (he's a baby)

8. Who's the most dramatic?

Hands down it's Fenice. She might fool most people with her whole "I am untouchable, nothing can faze me, I am unbothered" facade but you bet that she's having the most dramatic inner monologues 24/7. I blame anime

9. Who had a weird phase?

Weird is relative when it comes to the vi Aetiers, but I don't think anyone had a particular weird phase. Unless you count Charles who's trying to overturn the whole vi aetier kinslaying tradition, which the majority of people think is weird.

10. Best cook of the family?

Bold of you to assume they've seen a kitchen before.

11. Best memory together?

As in all 5 siblings together? Uh....none really. I mean it was only recently that all 5 of them were even in the same city, much less spending time together.

12. Worst memory together?

Those are book 2 spoilers ;)

13. Dream trip together

No one would be stupid enough to put them in the same vehicle. Maybe if you pair them off it'd be feasible and we'd get somewhere, but all five? not possible. They're also just not that close as siblings. (Konstantine and Basil are the youngest by a significant age gap. Euphemia and Charles' mothers have some real bad blood between them because of The Incident TM. Charles and Fenice are considered the closest out of the siblings but like, some of this is one-sided and Fenice still harbors a lot of resentment towards Charles).

14. Would you rather not be able to shower for a month or have the same clothes for a month?

It gets stupid hot and humid in Kaelstanopoli, especially during the summer. All of them would rather have the same clothes for a month than not bathe. That and the baths in Kaelstanopoli are like top tier.

15. Who's the older one?

Fenice

16. Role model?

Fenice - her mother and many of her paternal ancestors that she's read about and studied Charles - Dantalion and his uncle Andras Euphemia - her mother Eudocia and her great-grandmother Saphynia the Iron Queen Konstantine - Charles Basil - doesn't have one yet but he likes copying what Konstantine does

17. Who usually has the worst ideas?

Would it be a cop-out to say Basil

18. A GIANT insect is on the wall, who's taking care of it?

Basil. He may be the youngest and smallest but against bugs??? The most fearless man to ever exist. He's probably try and feed it to his ducks.

Tagging: @thewritersplace @seasteading @writinglyra @thesorcerersapprentice @cheshawrites @sourrcandy @serpentarii @charitet @thatswhereiwanttobe

[helaenalyst]

since i saw someone else do it i'm gonna write my own version of rook's rest just for fun (with less blatant kinslaying and with more gwayne hightower)

it starts the same way, with aemond spotting aegon riding sunfyre into battle and getting pissed because there's now a wildcard present in his perfectly calculated plan. while having two dragons does give them an advantage, he doesn't trust aegon, and thinks that he will be a hindrance. aemond has no plans of kinslaying at this point. he's just pissed that his lil bro is going to ruin his plan and make him look bad

aemond goes after aegon but vhaegar is slow to rise so sunfyre gets into the fray first and engages in battle with meleys. same conversation between criston and gwayne, then criston rallies the troops to advance. he has no idea why it was aegon who came, the most likely explanation is that aemond couldn't make it for whatever reason and sunfyre was the only other dragon they could send, so he's determined to make do with what they have

when aemond does get there he's pissed to see that the army already engaged, but at least rhaenys looks like an easy target while meleys and sunfyre are locked in battle. aegon says his "thank god" line and aemond orders vhaegar to chomp rhaenys off her saddle, however aegon's reaction tipped rhaenys so she can order meleys to let go of sunfryre and dodge the attack. aemond is beyond pissed. if aegon wasn't so transparent, then they would've already won!

this would be the first instance during the battle that aegon being aegon (earnest, loving, naive, stupid) would fuck things up. aemond grows increasingly convinced that aegon will lose them the war because he can't be focused and ruthless, while aemond can

aegon and aemond have the obvious advantage in a 2vs1 (with vhaegar to boot) but rhaenys is an experienced rider and warior so she can hold her own for quite a while just dodging and maneouvering fast. aegon thinks they should work together and keeps trying to order aemond around but aemond just wants him out of the way so he can do his thing and hes getting increasingly pissed because why the fuck is he here, why does he keep getting in the way. eventually aemond fires a "warning" shot at aegon by firing near him and at rhaenys, implying that he won't hesitate to fire at him if he needs to do it to win. ageon stands back and aemond goes alone after rhaenys

aegon is going through a lot right now because even in the fucking dragon battle he's being told to step aside and do nothing because he's a nuisance. he turns his attention to the castle and figures it should be easy to just go there and burn them all but he's shocked to see the storm of arrows actually has a chance to hurt him and sunfyre and once again he steps back. it's his first time in battle, he's panicking like crazy, he doesn't want to die. he looks for criston among the troops but he obviously can't communicate from such a height. he's alone in this and he doesn't know what to do

we see criston on the ground looking up and muttering "what are you doing, aegon...?". he's worried for the kid. gwayne is just grateful that sunfyre at least has the attention of the arrows and presses criston to advance, criston snaps out of it and nods and off they go

(maybe gwayne could stop an arrow headed for criston while he's distracted by ageon's confusing actions or something for extra points, let him get a W and repay his debt)

in any case, rhaenys sees the green army advance and goes full speed towards the castle, circling along the rear of criston's army to burn the troops. aemond does the same, but the vanguard of criston's troops is really close to the castle so when aemond burns the enemy troops he also burns his own troops. we get a couple of shots of criston and gwayne (separately) barely dodging vhaegar's fire. aegon sees what aemond is doing and he's horrified to see it because hey, what are you doing, cole is right there! he flies up to aemond and tells him to stop, aemond obviously ignores him, then aegon tries to command vhaegar to stop (in english of course) in a very dumb desperate attempt, and tries to grab the reins from aemond, this is where aemond reaches his limit and looks at aegon with immense fury and orders vhaegar to knock him out of the way, too irritated to care for what happens to him or sunfyre or cole and just wanting to finish the job

aemond didn't expect rhaenys to show up and dracarys the hell out of aegon while sunfyre is stunned after vhaegar's blow, though. he looks briefly guilty, but he quickly steels himself and goes after rhaenys, engaging one last time to finally take her out. we see a reaction from gwayne on the ground, who clearly saw what happened since he couldn't take his eyes off the dragons, and who will fear aemond like he's death itself from now on

the ending goes the same as in the show, criston goes after aegon but gets knocked out by vhaegar while aemond and rhaenys are fighting, eventually aemond kills rhaenys and meleys falls over the castle, gwayne rallies the rest of the troops to take it, etc

aemond looks for aegon after the battle, trying to block the guilt for what happened. he tries to justify his actions. maybe this is better for everyone? without aegon they can win the war. he's just too stupid. he didn't expect to find aegon alive. he tells himself that he can't possibly survive those injuries, but that he may live long enough to tell everyone what happened and have him executed for what he did. he's still the king. if he can speak at all, aemond is fucked

with these thoughts in mind he starts to draw his sword, but that's when criston arrives, so he stops. criston can't tell for sure if he saw what he thinks he saw, and doesn't want to believe it (unlike gwayne who is very sure of what he saw. whether to tell alicent or not would be something that they argue about in future episodes). he falls to his knees, looks heartbroken, etc. and aemond walks away

tldr i just wanted to play up the fact that rhaenys is experienced and very very good at what she does as well as the relationships between the team green characters and aegon's good heart vs aemond's ruthlessness. i also tried to give aemond a really good reason to reach his limit and hurt his brother bc i dont think he was at the point where it was a first resort for him yet. if that makes sense

[horizon-verizon]

i don't understand the effort (BIG one) to paint daemon as bad as maegor or even aegon ii, dude could have killed his brother before of all that started, and i think he had the right to do that when his "bastard" died in a direct move made by viserys, or kill his unwanted wife, sire a child against her will, or idk killed everyone if that was his villain character was. what do you think would have happened if daemon were "someone" with less loyalty to his brother?

A)

what do you think would have happened if daemon were "someone" with less loyalty to his brother?

Wrote about Daemon HERE (excuse the overly maudlinnes, I was musing over stuff I hadn't thought before. Some critical parts, I still think today)

Maegor didn't kill Aenys, so Daemon killing Viserys for the throne would have made him worse and not equal to Maegor. And yes, it would have made him a kinslayer, which without any real and overpowering support from lords on his side--similar to his eponymous successor--would have made any sort of rebellion or attempt at usurpation hopeless for a hypothetically kinslaying/usurping Daemon. (Maegor at least, killed Aegon the Uncrowned in battle, thought still a kinslayer.) So no, even if Daemon didn't love Viserys or prioritized loyalty to his house over having power over Viserys, Daemon would likely not try to do Viserys like that for that. Again, he had even less support than Maegor did--which is to say Aenys was near-universally hated under the Faith's influence and condemnations--Viserys was not.

And Maegor was the precedent and example in the making while Daemon was to be compared to him. Maegor had no figure compared to as a curse and caution of evil, at least not universally. thus Daemon was not "liked" or he was not given a certain sort of grace that Maegor was given--no one really expected Maegor to usurp his own brother (he didn't he usurped his nephew, once again).

B)

dude could have killed his brother before of all that started, and i think he had the right to do that when his "bastard" died in a direct move made by viserys, or kill his unwanted wife, sire a child against her will, or idk killed everyone if that was his villain character was

I don't think Daemon had a "right" to kill any child. Even with the greens having had Lucerys killed, or rather Aemond, and by Alicent/Otto's imparting their hatred for Rhaenyra and her side of the family. It's still a child being caught up in adults' "wars". I just also hate that green stans often will try to obfuscate why Daemon did it, posing the greens as purely innocent, and paint Daemon as this unprovoked madman who victimized the poor greenies. Neither do I think that he should have killed Viserys after Mysaria's baby was miscarried. Do I "dislike" Viserys for doing such out of a misplaced mistrust of Daemon and seeking to establish dominance and control? Absolutely. But it's just create more problems as it is if its a fratricide and not, say, Mysaria killing Viserys. Wouldn't that be something?

But he doesn't kill Viserys bc of that bond, how fetus simply doesn't really compare to a brother, sister, wife, etc., and it would put the realm into a turmoil that Daemon wouldn't be able to really fix up. Again, the Maegor comparison reasons above. As painful as that loss would have been for him, more so Mysaria, who's lost a child--that she maybe thought would live painfully if not the bastard of a nobleman--and a better life for herself than she might have thought for herself before Daemon. But who knows? My headcanon, regarding her, based on the dread of sex work and what we know about it in Westeros and KL.

C)

or kill his unwanted wife, sire a child against her will, or idk killed everyone if that was his villain character was

Kill Alicent? Or Rhea? If Alicent, would this be a political move--getting rid of a competitor and rival who would "mess up" the house? I think this could slide under femicide bc Daemon could--COULD--easily have her gendered class (daughter of a second son form not even an official "high" house, I'm just writing as he COULD think of her) as part of the motive. BEFORE she attempted to usurp Rhaenyra or do anything horrible to endanger her or ruin her rep. If Rhea, nah. Femicide, most likely, seeing as how he speaks of her unattractiveness (we don't know if she was customarily considered so, doesn't matter this is his PoV motivating him in this hypothetical). Don't really need that. Rhea wouldn't deserve it.

And thankfully, canonically neither happens. So, if that's the mind space you're in, anon, sure. Hope I understood what you said and answered your question.

[imakemywings]

for the character bingo: Maglor/Elros/Finduilas? (no pressure to do all of them!)

Maglor:

Maglor oh Maglor...you fetid dead shrimp of an Elf. I actually like Maglor a lot, I think he's a very interesting character. He's both an artist and a deadly warrior. He's the only Feanorian we see really push back against the Oath and the only one who ever suggests they just stop. He doesn't hang onto that, but there is an effort and there are other signs late in the First Age that he has regrets about the path he's taken and I think he's genuine about those. However, I am exhausted with how the fandom handwaves his crimes, acts like he's somehow less culpable than his family in their war crimes, lambasts his victims as authors of their own suffering, acts like his victims are obliged to forgive him because he feels bad, and act like his relationship with Elrond and Elros was some fluffy sweet found family story. Maglor's fucked-up-ness, as with all the Feanorians, is a huge part of what makes him interesting.

I think Maglor, for most of his life, was an incredibly selfish person. That exhibits in different ways. In Tirion, it was because he was an Artist and he did not have time for his stupid brothers and cousins' issues, he was Creating Art that was going to last a Thousand Years and he was above petty nonsense like caring about other people's problems. Maglor, like Feanor, feels a lot, and he is very willing to subordinate other people's needs to his feelings. Maglor's feelings >>> everything else. (The drama in Tirion was never-ending!)

When we see him start wavering after the Third Kinslaying, I think a few things were going on, but one of those things was I think Maglor was starting to panic. He was looking at what they had done and realizing that actually, he's a pretty shitty person when everything is tallied up. Nobody is going to remember him for his art--they're going to remember him for the ruthless slaughter in pursuit of his father's property and the total extinguishing of an entire culture out of Middle-earth. This is where we see him start to push back against Maedhros and the Oath--he isn't upset about the one Silmaril lost to Earendil, he argues against pursuing the two held by the host of Aman, he suggests they go and repent to the Valar and accept whatever punishment might be due them.

"Fostering" Elrond and Elros was, to me, a desperate Hail Mary effort at self-redemption by Maglor. It was also, again, a deeply selfish act. He took two traumatized children whose family and people he butchered, whose home he had destroyed, and whose culture he had erased, and tried to make them the vessel of his salvation. Which is not to say he didn't genuinely love them! I think he did and I think they were perhaps the only source of joy for him at that time in his life. And I think he realized somewhere on the front end that this was fucked up, but by then he was attached to them, and it took him years to reach the point of being selfless enough to let go of them and let them leave.

Maglor's journey to regret is complete, to me, when he rejects the Silmaril. At this point, he openly acknowledges to himself and others that what they did was wrong, it was in vain, and he regrets. If he could do it over, he would do things differently. But it's too late now--and there's no one left to hear him say it.

The interesting thing about "Maglor lives" AUs to me is that it gives him the chance he lacked in canon to make good on his claims of regret and actually do better. Because I think he is capable of it, it's just that he never quite gets there in canon, not before it's too late.

Finduilas:

Most of what I have to say about Finduilas is based on headcanon, because alas, we don't get a ton out of her in canon.

Finduilas is someone I see as aggressively optimistic. Not the kind of dewy-eyed optimism where she thinks things will just ~work out~ but more of a determination to do everything she can to make things work out and a commitment to avoiding self-defeating pessimism. She will not despair until there is absolutely no avenue left to her; I think she does a great job of maintaining estel. This is why she held out hope that Gwindor would come back from Angband.

But I think the Gwindor who returned from Angband was naturally a very different person than the one who had ridden out from Nargothrond. He would have necessarily come back extremely traumatized after twelve years as a slave of Melkor and while I think Finduilas was committed to helping him recover, I think his newly cynical and harsh outlook on life cooled the ardor of their earlier relationship.

I also think she was drawn to Turin because he has a similar kind of hopeful outlook. In a perverse sense, despite his pessimism about himself, Turin keeps trying to make things better and keeps believing he can make things better even when everything goes wrong for him again and again. I think Finduilas was drawn to this attitude and that's a big part of what made her fall in love with him.

I also like to think Finduilas was a healer! She was interested in medicine and made a personal study of it for many years and even delivered babies in Nargothrond.

I don't think she and Gil-galad were especially close but I do think she looked up to him a lot and would have been proud to see him take the crown of the high king of the Noldor.

Sorry Elros, I don't really have enough thoughts about you to share ╯︿╰ I do like the headcanon though that part of the reason he chose to be a Man was because of his disgust with how the Elves had behaved in the First Age and that he never fully forgave the Feanorians for their actions. I also see him as a rather adventurous person--he has to be, to willingly take the path with the unknown end!

[thelordofgifs]

I have NO idea what’s going on here now. Here’s some stuff. It’s so far from being finished. I actually twisted myself into pretzels trying not to kill Maglor, but I think it sort of works? Maybe? After the Gil-galad series I promised myself I’d only write sane stuff for a while but :(

Rewind to the Dagor Bragollach.

When the surviving population of Himlad fled west and south to Nargothrond, along the marches of Doriath, none of the Noldor among them could pass through the Girdle.

People died there, pursued by orcs and spiders, scarce feet from safety.

Thingol... isn't exactly sure he'd do things differently. They were not just any Noldor, after all - they were Fëanorians, followers of Celegorm and Curufin. Many of them were Kinslayers.

But, after, when his marchwardens told him of the mass graves they had made just outside his borders—

The Girdle is a little more permeable now.

Senior marchwardens, like Mablung, can exercise their judgement to bring the wounded to safety.

Not that anyone, in their wildest dreams, imagined that one day the wounded seeking shelter might count Maglor Fëanorion among their number.

Mablung is pretty sure he's going to get in trouble for this. But he decides to bring Maedhros and the unconscious Maglor, both blindfolded and guarded, back to Menegroth.

Of course, Mablung doesn't know that there's currently a Silmaril in Menegroth.

Mablung is now very sure he's going to get in trouble for this.

Thingol is disgusted, but he isn't evil. He agrees to have Maglor treated, and keeps Maedhros, chained to the wall by his left hand, in the same room.

Look, everyone knows what Maedhros has been through. Nobody wants to do this. But the alternative is having the deadliest son of Fëanor loose in Menegroth with a Silmaril, which people want even less.

Maedhros is having such a bad day.

Maglor is getting worse. They've stemmed the bleeding, at least. But it turns out Carcharoth's fangs were poisoned, and he isn't getting better, and he won't wake, he won't wake—

Maedhros is 50% here, watching his favourite brother slowly die in front of him, and 50% back on Thangorodrim, suspended from his wrist.

He tries to focus, at least, when Thingol shows up to interrogate him.

They're both a bit surprised by the other.

Maedhros isn't expecting someone taller than him (he hasn't dealt with that since Turgon fucked off to Gondolin several centuries ago).

Thingol wasn't expecting to see his old friend Finwë's features on the pale troubled face of this Kinslaying upstart.

"Why have you come here, Fëanorion?" he demands.

Maedhros flicks rapidly past the truth and over various plausible and implausible lies. "To apologise most sincerely for my brothers' deplorable treatment of your daughter, and to make amends in whatever way possible."

"Really," says Thingol, taking a risk. "And the Silmaril that you saw borne towards Doriath had no effect whatsoever on you."

Maedhros can't say, "I don't want the Silmaril," not with the Oath clawing at his throat. But he is good at dissembling. Pressing his wrist against the hard metal of its shackle, he says, "What did you hope to achieve, King Thingol, when you set one of my father's jewels as your daughter's bride-price? Did you want our enmity, we who spend our blood to keep Beleriand safe? Did you truly wish for Finrod my cousin's death?"

Thingol can't say, "I only meant to scare him," because that would be pathetic. But Maedhros has given him an opening. "How you dare to speak my nephew's name, when your perfidious brothers sent him to his doom at Gorthaur's hands!"

Okay so Thingol obviously isn't Sauron, but Sauron also favours the form of a tall fair-haired elf-lord and his name has come up and Maedhros is absolutely digging his nails into his hand trying to stay in the here and now, because Sauron isn't here, he isn't here. "Well, what do you plan to do now?" he asks. "You have a Silmaril, and the eldest sons of Fëanor. Are you hoping to ransom us, the way mortals do?"

“Don’t goad me, Kinslayer,” Thingol snaps. “You can stay here and rot for all I care.”

So that was productive.

Thingol stalks off to meet with Mablung, who updates him on the wolf situation - it looks like Carcharoth is drawing nearer to Doriath (the trail of blood they left from their previous encounter doesn't help), but why would he be able to get through the Girdle?

Honestly Thingol has a pretty good thing going right now. He has a Silmaril, his daughter is back, and turns out her husband isn't actually that terrible after all. His biggest problem is how to get the damned Noldor princes out of his city without them attacking anyone.

You know what this situation needs? Another son of Fëanor! said no one ever.

In Himring, Celegorm and Curufin are Not Impressed to find their brothers missing and the guards and stablehands all sworn to secrecy.

(They left all their own followers in Nargothrond. In Himring, things are done Maedhros' way, which is... an adjustment.)

"You try to work out what happened," says Celegorm. "I'm going to follow them."

Even without Huan, Celegorm is a prodigious tracker.

He follows his brothers' trail to the point, north of Doriath, where they evidently encountered another party of elves and some sort of rampaging creature. Someone was wounded, everyone went towards Doriath, and the monster continued on its way.

Tracking Carcharoth is a lot easier than tracking Iathrim rangers on their home territory. Celegorm follows his trail, skirting west around the Girdle.

Eventually he catches sight of Carcharoth up ahead.

Okay, this is weird. Admittedly Melian's magic warps reality a bit here, but Celegorm is sure the wolf is actually weaving in and out of the Girdle.

Well, his brothers are probably inside the Girdle, which means he should be there too, even if Thingol might have him killed on sight.

You thought Finrod was the only one who could wrestle wolves with his bare hands?

Celegorm takes a running leap onto Carcharoth's back.

Meanwhile in Menegroth, Beren, Lúthien and Huan are all having crises of conscience.

"Being chained was the worst part," Beren tells his wife. "To feel that powerless - I wouldn't wish it on anyone."

Lúthien is remembering how close she came to losing Beren to his poisoned wound.

Admittedly, Maglor is an elf raised in the Treelight, with all the strength of the ancient world in his bones, but. How much longer will he last?

Huan has gone to wait out the death watch with Maedhros.

Maedhros is very glad to see him, for a given value of gladness, as Maglor's breathing grows fainter and fainter.

Sometimes, when Maedhros has bad nights, Maglor sits up with him, and sings quietly, constantly, throughout the hours of darkness.

Maglor can’t do that for him now. Maglor is dying. But the principle is sound, so he keeps up a steady stream of more-or-less (less. it’s definitely less.) sane babble.

To Maglor: “Stay with me, Káno, keep breathing, listen to my voice, I’m still here, stay with me…” (Not that he thinks this will work, but it sounds nice.)

To Huan: “It was good of you, to leave when you did. Tyelko needed – he needed to know, that it wasn’t right. Do you think – the wolf—?”

To himself: “You did say that it would take the best thing you had left! Why didn’t I listen?”

When it’s really bad, to Sauron: “Shut up. Go away. You aren’t here. You aren’t here. You aren’t here—”

At some point during this litany, Lúthien shows up.

In her hand is a Silmaril.

(to be continued)

In light of recent interesting discourse about Beren and Lúthien's Silmaril theft, and the Fëanorions' priorities in the lead-up to Nirnaeth and after, I started wondering how things might have changed if B&L had managed to steal two Silmarils rather than one. Would pulling the Union together be harder with only one jewel left to draw focus in Angband?

Then as soon as I thought about it some more, I realised the most inevitable path diverged earlier than that.

Then I started writing a fic, got 400 words in, and realised I wanted to actually figure out what happened first. So here's a half (or potentially a smaller fraction) of a sort of bullet point fic/plan/thing, which may or may not get properly written up later. First I need to work out where to go from here.

Angrist was forged by the greatest of the Dwarf-smiths in the master-workshops of Nogrod. It cuts two Silmarils from Morgoth's iron crown before the blade snaps, and Morgoth stirs in his enchanted sleep.

Beren passes one Silmaril to Lúthien, and they run for it.

Carcharoth still meets them, snarling, at the gate. Beren still holds out a Silmaril to ward him off. His hand still gets bitten off.

But when the Eagles come for them, and Lúthien clambers sobbing onto Thorondor's back, she clasps a Silmaril in her hand.

The Eagles bear them towards Doriath, and the Treelight undiminished shines out over Dorthonion and Gondolin.

In chilly Himring, Maglor is shaken awake from nightmares of fire and smoke by his eldest brother, who drags him out of bed and towards the window. "Look! Is that not a Silmaril that shines now in the North?"

Maglor recognises it, of course. Moreover, he recognises the size and shape of Eagles in flight, even at a distance. Recognises, too, that as often as not they bear doom itself upon their great feathered backs.

(His father's jewel stinging his Oath awake, his brother's emaciated bleeding body wrapped in Fingon's cloak - they all mean failure.)

"Thingol's daughter and the mortal must have succeeded," he says. "What can we do?"

Maedhros and Maglor, you see, are Not Happy with the news out of Nargothrond.

That Celegorm wanted to force an elf-maid to wed against her will, after what they heard befell Aredhel—

That Curufin could turn against his favourite cousin, and betray him to his death—

"I am afraid," says Maedhros, "of what it will make us do. What it will make us become."

"We could ignore it," says Maglor, whose first response is always inaction. "Let it go to Doriath—" But it is hard even to finish the sentence, with the Oath choking his words.

And there is a bigger problem: Celegorm and Curufin, who are sleeping now (it is only Maedhros who can be relied upon to pace the fortress by night), will not do so forever. They have already attacked Thingol's daughter once - will they do so again, before she can pass into the safety of her mother's Girdle?

"We have to get to Doriath before they do," says Maedhros, and wonders when his little brothers became the threat to be outpaced.

"And then what?" asks Maglor, who never shies from difficult questions.

Maedhros gives him one of his quick strange smiles. "This is how it works, you know," he says. "Huan has turned from Tyelko. Tyelpë has repudiated Curvo. It turns you into the worst version of yourself, and then it strips away the best thing you have left."

Maedhros has ridden out to claim a Silmaril before, and lost all of himself in the process.

Maglor, too, has been offered all he ever wanted - his dearest brother, returned to him - and turned away for the sake of the Oath he renewed at his father's deathbed.

They are both afraid of what they could become.

They ride out from Himring anyway, swiftly and secretly, before the dawn.

Meanwhile, Thorondor sets Beren and Lúthien down on Doriath's southern border.

Huan comes to join them, and with the power of the Silmaril, Beren is healed sooner than he might have been, otherwise.

The Quest is fulfilled. Beren has no reason to stay away from Thingol's house.

Instead of wandering in the wilds, the lovers return to Menegroth, present a Silmaril, and promptly get married.

Thingol is very surprised (and overjoyed) to see them; the last news he had of Lúthien was that she had vanished from Nargothrond.

In fact, he's just sent out a couple of messengers, led by Mablung Heavy-hand, with a scathing letter to Maedhros Fëanorion demanding his aid in finding the princess.

North of the Girdle: "Hey, isn't that Maedhros Fëanorion?"

"Sure is," says Mablung, who was at the Mereth Aderthad.

"Hail, Mablung of Doriath!" calls Maedhros, who never forgets a face. "What news from King Thingol?"

Well, there isn't news as such. Just... fury.

Maedhros considers the merits of keeping his cards close to his chest versus the dire diplomatic situation he's currently in, and opts to share what they saw from Himring, and what it bodes for Beren's success.

He decides not to share that Lúthien was definitely with Beren, which he knows because his brothers attacked her.

Maglor is not sure how stopping to chat with an Iathren marchwarden is going to get them closer to a Silmaril, but he isn't in the habit of arguing with Maedhros.

Anyway, before the conversation can wrap up, a marauding werewolf appears.

Right. Carcharoth.

The Iathrim make the sensible call and scramble up some trees. Maglor follows a beat later.

Noldor don't climb trees very often. It isn't one of the skills Maedhros has had cause to practice one-handed.

Not that it matters, because he's frozen where he stands, eyes wide and bright and thoughtful.

This is unusual. Maedhros would not be the most renowned warrior of the Noldor if he were constantly dissociating in the midst of battle.

He saves the dissociation for after the battle, thank you.

The wolf is almost upon him.

Well, thinks Maglor, about time I did some saving for a change.

Maglor is not Lúthien. Does he need to be? He knows enough about madness, and enough about torment. He knows how to sing the suffering to sleep.

He drops down from his perch to begin a lullaby.

Carcharoth slows down when he sings, and comes to a momentary halt, and Maglor takes the time to hiss, "Nelyo, run—"

"They burned him," Maedhros breathes, still with that bright faraway look in his eyes that means he is half-lost in memory. "His hands were black and ruined. No evil thing may touch them."

The wolf lunges.

[I want to kill Maglor off here but I'm a coward. so.]

Carcharoth savages Maglor's leg and he collapses.

That brings Maedhros back to himself.

Mablung and his party aren't heavily armed. They were only meant to be messengers, after all. They get a few shots in at the wolf, who runs off, still maddened.

Maglor isn't moving isn't talking and there's so much blood—

(to be continued)

[tolkien-feels]

You can't just tease us with Celebrimbor/Orodreth like that (is that even a ship?) and not go through with it! Tell us more

I never know what are or aren't ships tbh? Well, it is for me. Anyway, here's a rambling answer:

As with everything Celebrimbor, canon is fuzzy and I'm going with whatever suits my purposes

Celebrimbor and Orodreth, in my mind, were the definition of neutral towards each other in Aman. Just the blandest relationship that isn't even like or dislike, it's just "This kinsman exists and I don't have any particular emotions about that."

Kinslaying and ship burning hardly improved things, but because there was never any great affection, Orodreth doesn't feel really betrayed, and Celebrimbor could feel more guilty tbh. They're not eager to hang out in Beleriand but like, they could easily make small talk if necessary

Then: FA 455, Celebrimbor gets to Nargothrond. Orodreth isn't there, but Finrod is very kind to Celebrimbor, and Celebrimbor is good at reciprocating. It bothers him that he can't do much to repay the welcome he gets, but that doesn't turn into bitterness, he's really just eager to have something useful to do

Two years later, Orodreth gets to Nargothrond, and he's... Not okay. Sauron goes out of his way to mess with his head as much as possible in the limited time before Orodreth retreats, and much more willful elves than Orodreth would struggle to shake that off. And look, Finrod couldn't possibly do more to help Orodreth feel better, but receiving kindness from someone Orodreth feels he's failed can be difficult, even if you aren't the most proud Finwean to ever live

Oh, look, Celebrimbor has something to do! His was driven out of his home under much less traumatizing circumstances than Sauron hating him specifically and it still took him a while to get over it, he really feels bad for Orodreth, and Orodreth is dear to Finrod, and Celebrimbor owes Finrod, and well. You do the math.

Curufin (who doesn't exactly hate Finrod but has... mixed feelings) is pretty sure it'll be useful at some point to have his son be close to Finrod's favorite so he opposes this much less than you'd think. It's a miscalculation, though

For the next eight years, Orodreth and Celebrimbor become friends. Just that. Not even terribly close friends, but there's a kind of constancy to their friendship where there are never any exciting ups, but there aren't any downs either.

(What are we doing about Finduilas and her mother? I'm not entirely sure, actually, but I'm taking suggestions)

And then, the Quest for the Silmaril disaster hits. And that's very much a turning point. Celebrimbor is pretty sure Orodreth is going to hate him now, Orodreth is pretty sure Celebrimbor will side with Curufin, and then neither thing happens and they're like "Oh. We've just the most important people in our lives. Maybe that's the event we can finally bond over?"

And it is! They do bond over Life Sucking, actually. They have all kinds of complicated emotions to sort through, after all

And then we have what? 30 years before Nargothrond falls? Enough time to finally get a friends to lovers arc done with time to spare before disaster strikes

If I'm being honest, the thing that appeals to me about this ship is the notion of having characters in a very low stakes relationship for several decades even as the world outside is falling apart. I don't care much about what happens after they get together, the thing I'm after here is two people taking the longest possible route to get to each other not because of hate, but because they foolishly believe that, being immortal, they have all the time in the world to let their relationship develop naturally - but of course, they don't.

So yeah, I'm rotating decades long slow burn, but not as in "they're both in love but take forever to get together" - as in "they take forever to fall in love in the first place" because I'm a boring person who likes boring relationships

[galadhremmin]

I'm not sure if a version exists where Artanis actually takes part in the kinslaying, but honestly I'd prefer it. Or at least one with her not taking Part at all, but profiting from it, like Finrod. It doesn't exactly make sense with the whole Doriath thing, but I think it's more interesting if she has the same issues as Finrod, amplified by ten because she's also lying about it. Idk, she's just too holier than thou otherwise. I'm all for her being a not entirely good person, like Finrod, but also one who seeks to keep her head down and fit in with the Sindar and experience personal growth (only finwean to do so -joking) rather than redeem her self in a suicide mission. She's so much more compelling, and so much less irritating, if she has actual narrative flaws other than vague pride and self righteousness.

Look anon, I can't make you like a character you dislike.

I will say though; given how very few important female characters wrote, and even less of them with any complexity, or more than a name, if that-- I think it's worth it trying to puzzle together a version of Galadriel you personally can get into writing (assuming you're a fic writer). Tolkien changed his mind on the character repeatedly, so there is enough to work with.

I'll also say a character does not have to be a literal murderer to have morally grey moments and complexity.

Anyway, she fought in defense of her mother's kin in one version, i.e. killed Noldor. Personally I don't think this qualifies as kinslaying. We're told a bit about what unlawful killing is when Tolkien goes into why Curufin didn't kill Eol, and he mentions killing in self-defense for example as permissible iirc; similarly we don't see Turgon's execution cliff mentioned as a kinslaying cliff... but even if that is not legally kinslaying, I imagine killing people would still feel pretty bad, especially because she might have killed acquaintances. She is a princess of the Noldor as well as the Teleri, and going by Shibboleth she saw herself as Noldorin (going with her being the only one of her family to sa-sí because she wanted to speak as her people did. Speaking of, that actually mirrors one of Indis' two reasons for abandonning Vanyarin th! I really do think they were close)-- but she did kill her own people, even if they were attacking her other people.

Maybe that is part of why she stays within the Girdle, aside from her love for Melian, and wanting to learn more about Beleriand. I cannot imagine the Fëanorians took kindly to her killing Noldor; see Caranthir's 'yea more' moment where he suspects Angrod of divided loyalties solely due to his descent, and Angrod is nowhere noted to have fought for the Teleri. I don't know if she was keeping her head down exactly, but she seems to prefer remaining among the Sindar for a long time. And she does experience character growth. The Galadriel who refuses the Ring is a different person from the Galadriel who wanted to sail despite her family/subjects's murders, I think. It's possible her true moment of growth is the refusing. She's an elf. Things take a long time.

Either way, though a version in which she is fully blameless exists (Tolkien in his end of life extremely catholic revisions), she does go with the intent of sailing on those stolen ships in published Silm. Like Finrod, she simply is stopped from doing so. They put their own wishes and ambitions first.

And if she fought in defense of the Teleri, and was then stuck with the rest of the Noldor on the Ice... well, it just seems like a tense situation. They might deeply regret attacking blindly, but if you lost your parent or sibling to the defense you might nevertheless not feel friendly towards someone who cut them down.

She doesn't lie in published Silm-- she simply refuses to tell Melian, who smells rat. Thingol doesn't ban her or her brothers because they're related to them, and didn't kill Olwe's people. I doubt either Melian or Thingol was exactly happy with how they handled it though.

Galadriel's loyalty seems to be mostly to herself after she lands in Middle Earth. And who can blame her? It makes her an interesting character.

As for the flaws you call vague.. the thing is, I don't think her pride is vague. Nor is her judgement not always fair, as demonstrated by the Shibboleth quote about not judging Feanor the same way she does others. She is very ambitious; she wants to 'order' lands as she thinks right. There are vaguely uncomfortable echoes of colonial narratives in her story if you want those. This is also why the Ring temps her the way it does. Of course she doesn't mean to harm people. But she is always convinced she is right, as much as Fëanor was really.

Galadriel even in Valinor does not see the shadow that has fallen on herself (i.e. her own faults) but very much focuses on the evil in people she already does not like, which in Valinor is only Fëanor (Shibboleth). I feel like there it's possible the same was true for more people in Middle Earth. Fëanor's personal downward spiral is a disaster because of his talents and position; but there are many people much worse than that. I feel like being prone to being overly judgemental while blind to your own faults is a very real flaw in a world full of people easy to dislike.

Then there is LoTR, where she does not seem to ask permission to use Osanwe on the fellowship. This is... less than ethical behaviour. No, she does not technically force them-- but they never saw it coming. Sam doesn't like it! Boromír is unsettled by it. She just seems to think she has the right to do this.

Again, I think Galadriel being so blind to her own flaws while harshly judging those in a person she already dislikes, her pride and hunger for power are not minor flaws at all. There is even that NoME note about Gil-Galad ruling under the 'suzerainity' of Galadriel.

She is noted to love the Valar but ends up defying them for a very long time, she sees te Noldor as her people but fights them to defend the Teleri, she abandons the murdered Teleri she defended to go over the Ice with the people she fought, she arrives in Beleriand, having wanted to rule specifically 'without tutelage'-- only to spend centuries being taught by Melian, under Thingol's rule. She's proud, ambitious very self-righteous, strong, blind to her own flaws; maybe being offered the Ring is what finally makes her see her wanting to rule as a flaw at all. Honestly it's not that hard to take the canon material and find a convincing characterisation for a story in there somewhere.

She seems very different from Finrod just going by their encounters with Thingol-- compare her 'maybe so!' attitude to Finrod's awkward guilty interaction.

[an-eldritch-peredhel]

Unfortunately you became the latest victim of “Tumblr just unfollows people randomly for literally no reason”

So I’m following again now!

Húrin and/or Maedhros for the character asks?

-@outofangband

@outofangband Ooof I've been lucky enough that it hasn't happened to me (I don't think? O.o) but welcome back lol! Anyway I'm gonna do them both because they deserve it! (also taking this opportunity to link one of my all time favorite fics "In Equal Measure": it's a Russingon time-travel au WIP and my ultimate place for headcanon theft re: both Maedhros and Fingon.)

How I feel about this character:

Maedhros: My man held Beleriand, the House of Finwe, and himself together, all alone with nothing but willpower and spite, we stan. No but seriously I think he's super cool, and if the Silm is ever adapted (knock on wood) I think that he'd make an excellent main character, given that he's around for most of the important events, and is consistently sympathetic. Yes even during the Kinslayings (to me at least). It's horrific and he becomes a monster equal to Morgoth in the eyes of the lands he once fought so hard to save, driven mad by an endless cycle of failure and loss and an Oath that he's more afraid to break than to keep, and I still find myself hoping for him. I'm not sure how to rank my favorite characters (besides Luthien being #1) but he's a serious contender for second place.

Hurin: :((((( He deserves better. I think the biggest thing is, he just didn't get a chance to heal? He went straight from watching daughter and son's miserable life end to being set loose into a world that largely hates those released from Morgoth, wanders around being miserable and inadvertently helping to cause several disasters, sees his wife die, and then dies himself. Just. There really are no happy endings in the Narn.

All the people I ship romantically with this character:

Maedhros: Fingon <3<3<3 I'm basic what can I say /j. I don't really have anything original to write about them, I just love their love. And they work with so many tropes too, star-crossed lovers: even complete with a Romeo & Juliet style family feud, slow burn, mutual pining, angst with a happy ending, angst with a bad ending, fluff, married, not married, truly the most versatile couple :P

Hurin: Morwen. Tall goth small sunshine is one of the ideal forms of romance (actually wait that applies to Russingon too). Still not many opinions on them, but in a perfect world they'd get to live happily together with escaping sheep as their biggest worry.

My non-romantic OTP for this character:

Maedhros: Maglor. I really like the headcanon that Caranthir was his actual primary advisor, but even if Mae and Mags weren't the closest during the long peace, I think that they were in Valinor and after the second Kinslaying. There are some things you can't go through without bonding: being the oldest siblings is the less depressing option. That's also the reason I love the eldest-siblings trio (Maedhros, Fingon, Finrod) in Valinor. Also, this is agressively non-canonical, but I stand firm in my belief that if they had met with no baggage attached Maedhros and Luthien would've been terrifying besties.

Hurin: Well thanks to you, the "Screw Morgoth Club". It doesn't quite fit into my headcanons for how Mandos and Mystery Afterlife work, but I adore it nonetheless. Also Fingon, again thanks to you lol.

My unpopular opinion about this character:

Maedhros: Hmmm I don't know if it's unpopular or not, but I feel very strongly that post-Angband he would hate to be called Maitimo. It was already a very personal name, but after everything "well-formed one" would probably feel like a cruel joke. And I don't think he ever really liked Nelyafinwe, it being a result of Feanor's feud, then Quenya was banned and Russandol wasn't an option anymore, so he compromised.

Hurin: I don't think about him enough to have opinions >o< /hj. Maybe that he didn't really vibe with Gondolin? I don't know how canon goes re: this, but I feel like lots of people would think its policy of utter isolationism (except when it's convenient to them/divine intervention) was selfish- especially post-Bragollach, when they didn't even bother to send troops. After the Nirn and its fall this view probably softened some, but a 15 year old in a strange place with strange people- beautiful and untouched by a war they refuse to involve themselves in even as their kin are dying- would probably be unsettled at best.

One thing I wish would happen / had happened with this character in canon:

Maedhros: Ok. So I don't actually wish this, for many reasons but partly because it would make the story less interesting, but. That he'd died. Gosh you know it's bad when that's the happy(er) ending. At any point before canon, really, although the obvious options are on Thangorodrim and post-Nirn. I might write something about it one day, but even if everything went the same, things would still be better just because there was one less person commiting violence. Heck, even if things somehow went worse you could make an argument for that. It's not something I think about often, given how absurdly depressing it is (my angst needs happy endings ;-;) but it does pop up every now and then, helped along by one or two aus I foolishly read while wanting to cry.

Hurin: I wish canon didn't happen :( on a more serious note... that he'd been rescued. Even if it wouldn't've helped much, that display of "you weren't forgotten, there is good yet in the world" would make things a little better. And then promptly even worse if canon continued as canon does. (If Morwen rescued him... more Maedhros parallels are tragic tragic chicken soup for the soul.)

[and-the-times-we-had]

Someone else already said this in the replies of this post but, the Feanorians doing it first doesn't actually mean it's fine for others to do it to them later. A wrong is still being done to them from their perspective. Fun fact, it's OK that the other party in this conflict also makes bad decisions. It's annoying when people ignore the feanorians wrongdoings, although I'm not sure who is doing that in the context of the first kinslaying or the ship buring. However, it's also frustrating when people ignore the fact that other characters also made decisions that created conflict. It's easy to blame the feanorians for a lot of the problems in the silm, but I think doing that too often makes the story significantly less interesting than it is when you consider all the different players in the narrative as having the same capacity for choice as people often apply to the feanorians.

Just love those takes on Fëanorians being oppressed by having their sacred cultural artefacts kept from them - and just straight up ignoring the fact that the Fëanorians not only also stole sacred cultural artefacts first, did so with a great deal more violence than anything that was done to them in the taking of the Silmaril, and then destroyed them.

[imakemywings]

Caranthir bingo card?

Ah, the forgotten middle child. We know so little about him, less than any of Feanor's kids save the twins. Does he have a particular craft, or is macroeconomics his thing? I like the popular fanon that he sews, a la Grandma Miriel, I think that's fun.

Caranthir of all the Feanorians had the most to lose wrt the Second Kinslaying which is interesting...Maglor's lost the Gap and is living with Maedhros in the land of Freeze Your Tits Off Year-Round, Celegorm and Curufin have lost Himlad and also been expelled from Nargothrond (and lost both a kid and a magic dog in the process), the twins are off on an eternal camping trip...but Caranthir seems quite cozy in Thargelion, raking in coin left and right and having a grand old time managing quite a lot of trade. I can see as how he was not too keen to upset that, and yet when Maedhros called, he came.

I know I said he's not criticized enough (for the Kinslayings) which I think is true of all the Feanorians, but lately I've also seen him take flack for his engagement with Haleth which is a little puzzling to me because nothing happened? Caranthir and his troops came to the aid of the Haladin, he offered her a partnership which may or may not have constituted a form of vassalage, she turned him down, they all moved on. Nothing skeevy happened here.

It's also interesting that wrt canon Silm, Caranthir is arguably least culpable of the Feanorians, since he's not a part of Celegorm and Curufin's clusterfuck Nargothrond adventure and is dead before the Third Kinslaying so you could say he's the least bad...but also I think if he had been alive he would've shown up for Kinslaying Take #3.

I like to imagine he's closest with Maglor among his brothers. Maglor and Celegorm are like cats and dogs, and Caranthir doesn't get along especially well with Tyelko either, so the Caranthir-Maglor alliance is a natural occurrence. They both prefer indoor activities and making fun of their cousins, which also works out. I've read at least one fic where Maglor habitually sends Caranthir snippets of compositions he's working on (regardless of whether or not Caranthir actually responds) and I think that's v cute.

I do not think Maglor took Caranthir's death especially well (not that he could blame Celegorm since he's dead too lol)

[asofiaf]

House of the Dragon, Episode 2

They have an intro now! it's very much in the style of the GoT intro but there's also a river of blood, because subtlety is for cowards

The Stepstones plot moves forward. This isn't a plot hole or anything just something I wish had been explored in more detail, but: Corlys seems in favour of sending dragonriders to get rid of the pirates. But Rhaenys, his wife, is a dragonrider; he doesn't really need crown permission to do that? (Is Laenor a dragonrider by this point? Hard to say with the altered timelines. Seems Laena isn't one yet).

There are of course many possible reasons he wouldn't want to just ask Rhaenys, but it'd be interesting to see them on the screen, y'know? Or maybe that's just me.

(other things that would be interesting to see on the screen: Corlys is basically the protagonist of an adventure series! talk about that, give viewers a reason to care about him. It's all very well to have him boast to Daemon about being a self-made man but like without context that's just two noble assholes being overly-congratulatory about themselves; even if you don't accept his narrative there's something backing it up)

Daemon basically commits treason, which, maybe I'm just misremembering the original material but they seem to be making it worse? Idk. Stealing Dragonstone is pretty bad on its own tbh and that's canon. Anyway I knew that was not going to happen but at one point Viserys is like "What would you have me do, send him to the Wall? Perhaps I could put his head on a spike?" and honestly, yeah, kinda. I mean sure he's your brother and you love him(?) and kinslaying is bad but also: treason. Not that Viserys seems very concerned with the Targaryens projecting a strong image to outsiders.

(side note: Daemon calls Mysaria 'Her Grace' in the note. I checked and Joffrey gets 'Your Grace' a few times while Robert still lives, so it is apparently a style for an heir, but is the style appropriate for an heir's wife? Not that Daemon is the heir or for that matter Mysaria his wife, but even within the farce... trying to measure the depth of the treason, I guess)

Rhaenys has a whole I Will Tell You How The World Works conversation with Rhaenyra, which seems redundant to the point of counter-productiveness. There's only so far you can hammer the point "Westerosi lords will never follow a woman" before you start actually overstating how patriarchal Westeros is (sounds absurd, I know). Some of them will follow a woman, actually! it's an upcoming important plot point.

Possibly this is hindsight goggles but the overuse of the word 'kind' in that conversation between between Viserys and Alicent seemed less foreshadowing and more just bad dialogue. not that either of them is meant to be particularly eloquent, I suppose...

Last episode gave us the Princess, this episode gives us the Queen (we've been seeing the Rogue Prince all over the place)

I thought it was a neat detail to have Viserys with a bandaged finger during the small council meeting at the beginning. Attention is not drawn to it but it's there and it's not hard to tell what it means. Good job. (we have the maggot scene later on, ofc, to be less subtle about it).

The dragonkeepers only speak high valyrian. hm, are we meant to interpret them as retainers the Targaryens kept over generations since they fled Valyria? It'd be cool. It might just be a ritualised thing though.

[galadhremmin]

I'm sorry for an ask like this but I really want to find one particular post, and it seems to me that it might have been yours

It's something about why kinslayings are even count as so bad a thing, if I remember right. Which I might not

And there was something "elves are generally more good then people (we)" . Like, it's much less common for them to kill/rape/smth else each other

don't apologise for a very normal question! It's fine! Answering this now because I don't like to cause unnecessary anxiety, sorry about the unanswered asks in inbox everyone else but i do this for fun after all.

hmmmm doesn't sound familiar, or like something I would say! I think I might have said that it seems like the elves judge kinslayings very severely while not showing the same response to state-sanctioned 'lawful' violence (cf Gondolin execution cliff), as well as killing mortals (Gondolin door policy for mortals seems to involve killing them, Nargothrond door policy if mortal stranger and yes during Finrod's rule-- Beren has to wave ring around to avoid being killed). The value attached to the death of an elf, especially if one not considered lawful-- seems much greater than that attached to the death of a mortal (human or dwarf). I think this attitude does slowly change by the end of the first age when you can see attitude to humans change overall, maybe in part due to playing a role in Ulmo's prophecy as much as prolonged contact with Edain, valiance shown by many mortal heroes etc. It 'deeds of lust’ being rare is something Tolkien wrote himself; he also wrote no elf ever willingly entered into the service of Morgoth, which is perhaps what you meant? As for killing, well, there is a reason why the kinslayings are such plot points; for them to be they need to be rare, at least in scale. Unlawful killing another elf was not accepted.

We get 'Even when in after days, as the histories reveal, many of the Eldar in Middle-earth became corrupted, and their hearts darkened by the shadow that lies upon Arda, seldom is any tale told of deeds of lust among them.' in LaCE.

However, there is a specific quote that is often misread as saying it was impossible for an elf to rape according to LaCE, or that the victim autmatically died. That is not what it says imo.

Misreading annoys me even if I hate the text lol so I will discuss it shortly. trigger warning for obvious reasons.

Laws and Customs;

'The Eldar wedded once for all. Many, as the histories reveal, could become estranged from good, for nothing can wholly escape from the evil shadow that lies upon Arda. Some fell into pride, and self-will, and could be guilty of deeds of malice, enmity, greed and jealousy.

But among all these evils there is no record of any among the Elves that took another's spouse by force; for this was wholly against their nature, and one so forced would have rejected bodily life and passed to Mandos. Guile or trickery in this matter was scarcely possible (even if it could be thought that any Elf would purpose to use it); for the Eldar can read at once in the eyes and voice of another whether they be wed or unwed."

Now, in the 1959-1960 version of Aredhel's story it says "the sister of King Turgon, astray in the wild near his dwelling, and he took her to wife by force: a very wicked deed in the eyes of the Eldar."

Sites like tolkiengateway state this was changed in the Silm to 'not wholly unwilling' because it contradicts the (1950s) Laws and Customs-- but if you actually look at the paragraph usually referred to you'll notice it explicitly says 'another's spouse' who would then die which is not the same as 'never under any circumstances' -- it is against their nature to do this to someone already married, which is apparently visible in the eyes (uh, oh well. You know. Tolkien). It is also specifically about another's spouse. Make of that what you will. The Arien and Morgoth interaction cited on tkgateway seems entirely irrelevant because a maia has a very different relation to a fana than an incarnate to a body to start with.

Either way, his means neither Eol's actions nor Celegorm's intention to force Luthien into marriage (not simply lust motivated but with the intent to bind Thingol to them, I can find that quote for you if needed) contradict LaCE at all.

UNLESS I'm overlooking yet another LaCE quote used to defend the rape = death reading, which uhm. Is possible. Given the maze that is Tolkien's assorted napkin scribbles as collected by his son.

In my opinion Eol's abusive nature and basically trapping her in Nan Elmoth read as... genuinely not much better wrt the "wholly unwilling" narrative despite the lack of force-- if anything the Silm version where Tolkien tried to remove more graphic implied action feels like it makes Aredhel complicit in her role as a victim in some way to me, but that's personal. I strongly dislike and am uncomfortable with the way the narrative handles Aredhel as a whole-- and I'm not even touching the can of worms that are the way Tolkien wrote Maeglin and Eol. That aside.

Either we are told in the force version that it would be regarded as a 'very wicked deed' i.e. absolutely taboo, and uncommon (again ugh sorry about not being able to locate the quote; am sleepy lol), as was a random murder spree.

The Eldar had laws about what consituted 'lawful killing' which is hinted at in a footnote on why Curufin did not kill Eol (was unlawful under those circumstances at the time), which makes sense given that the relatives of murdered elves have very long memories and will be around forever.

Severe crimes simply do not fade over time or become forgotten when everyone involved has relatives who remember and live on and on and on. This makes laws about things like death very important, and provides a strong motivation to follow them other than 'well elves are by nature Better' though tolkien did pretty much write that in many ways.

Hopefully this made sense! sorry if not am in the middle of trying to work an engraving laser and sleepy lol, feel free to debate in the replies.

[fingonvaliant]

Gotcha. Personally I read this is all the Teleri collectively deciding not to build ships for the Noldor, Olwe doesn't show up until a paragraph later.

And I also I feel like calling Olwe the worst elf is, maybe a bit strong. This whole scene with the kinslaying, in my opinion, is to really solidify Feanor's hypocrisy as a character trait. A few scenes back, the Valar ask for the Silmarils from Feanor to rekindle the Two Trees, Feanor refuses, on the grounds that as the Trees were to Yavanna, the Silmarils are to him, he can never make their like again, etc. etc. and the Valar do not hinder or compel him for doing this.

Flashforward to Alqualonde, Feanor, in an echo of Yavanna asking the Silmarils of him for the Trees, asks the swan-ships of the Teleri for the Silmarils, but when Olwe refuses on the same grounds that Feanor did, Feanor instead does the first kinslaying. I think it's odd to find Olwe to be the worst elf based off of his behavior in a scene that isn't really even his.

My read of his dialogue isn't that Olwe refuses to help Feanor because he's indifferent, it's that he doesn't care for Feanor's argument for wide lands and adventure in Beleriand (they desired now no other home but the strands of Eldamar) and that he trusted that Ulmo and the other Aratar would redress the hurts of Morgoth (and they do.... eventually... it's complicated) and that Feanor's acts and intents are folly and will come to nothing (which is true.)

I struggle to find anything of this bad, let alone the worst. "no redeeming traits" also feels harsh since he's barely in the Silmarillion and only has this one scene. Of the important elves only Ingwe has less "screentime"