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not-poignant · 10 months ago

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Hi Pia

Hope you dont mind but UtB Temsen scares me. Like... there are things about him that just make me feel very unsafe lol.

I'm not sure whether you intended for him to have such a threatening undercurrent but if I existed in the Underline universe I'd stay far far away from him. It's strange because I don't get that same sense of foreboding from Gary or Augus and I'm wondering whether that because Gary has a pov and Augus is simply not present much. But idk.

I get a sense that there's an extreme darkness beneath peak alpha Temsen's character. Like, he apparently cares about omegas enough to go into a rage on their behalf and later work at Hillview but then does and says things that are like the exact opposite Like admitting that he would've raped Ef if Ef had been given to him instead of Gary and would've done it despite witnessing first hand through his profession the type of trauma that sexual abuse causes. And the fact that forced sex would've been the first thing on his mind instead of investigating further and finding the source of the pain? Yeah that's... kind of chilling actually.

So in his mind, rape isn't ok if it's committed by other alphas (like ones at different facilities) but it's ok if he commits it?

And then reading some of your responses about how Temsen is with his one night stands, or how he'd potentially be with Gwyn, and it just solidifies my belief that even though he can be nice sometimes, he is not a nice person.

If i was an omega sent to Hillview, I would be horrified to even be in the same room as him. His kindness and goodwill seem extremely conditional and feels like it could turn around any moment if someone isn't "respectful" enough. Like, he didn't like Ef talking back to him and I have a suspicion that his reaction to it would've been worse if Ef was his instead of Gary's. Temsen seems to treat patients best when they're polite, passive and obedient, which are usually trauma responses and he knows that, but (judging by his behaviour/responses) still prefers it?

I also think his cheerful bedside manner is a mask he puts on and it hides something very dark and very ugly that not even Gary and Augus possess.

As you can probably tell I have quite strong feelings about Temsen lol. Most of them not good.

Please don't take this the wrong way, these aren't judgements! I just want to express and share my feelings about him as a reader. And maybe get your thoughts as well? I would literally read an entire essay dedicated to his character to see if I could see him in a new light.

I think the fact that he's not a pov character doesn't help him much. But then you've written other non pov characters before and none of them have made me feel like this so maybe it's just a UtB Temsen thing.

If you have the time and energy to spare, I'd love and appreciate your thoughts on his character. I always love reading your responses.

Thank you

This ask is almost as long as my ask responses sdlakfjsda

And my response is VERY LONG so under a cut it goes:

Okay so, first things first, by our world standards, all of the alphas in Underline the Black are rapists. All of them. Every single one we've met so far. From the kind and caring Janusz who did not in any way obtain any kind of consent before raping Nate lovingly repeated times, to Anton who might get consent from Flitmouse this time but certainly hasn't in the past during heats, to Gary who has done god knows what to alphas before abandoning them, to Caleb who does not contain full and willing consent from the omegas he fucks and certainly puts the dubious in dubcon when he's with Faber.

So let's be blunt here, if we're going to be looking at these characters from like, our personal standards, they're all rapists. All of them. Some of them are nicer and friendlier than others, but this is a world where obtaining full and lucid consent from omegas in heat is literally impossible, and where rehabilitation facilities often make choices to put the physical health of an omega (i.e. the resolution of a heat) before the emotional or psychological health (i.e. letting the omega go through unfulfilled agony just to wait until they can get true consent).

When we look at almost all omegaverse stories through this lens, almost every single character becomes a rapist and/or capable of rape. It's one of the reasons so many of us like it so much, it's so good for rape fantasy + romance, and it fulfills a lot of the roles that oldschool Mills & Boon and Bodice Ripper romance used to fulfill. A lot of 'I hate it until I love it, and now I also love you.'

One of the things omegaverse does within the universe is create a culture where everyone just accepts this as normal, because heats exist and they must be fulfilled, because they can be fatal - and certainly agonising - if they're not. This is a world that has, by and large, decided that people dying of pain has more value than obtaining real and informed consent. Believe it or not, our world is also like this sometimes. Especially around certain medical emergencies.

In the specific context you're mentioning re: Temsen admitting he would have raped Efnisien, he's making it very clear that he would have done it in response to Efnisien's physical agony due to being in heat, and he says this in a regretful way, in the tone of someone who knows he would have been wrong to do that, after literally saving Efnisien's life during surgery, and I feel like you're really cherry picking Temsen's words here to justify how you feel about him, which is awesome - you can do that!

But if you bring it to me, I'm going to show the whole sequence of dialogue to demonstrate that he had a lot of humanity around this sentiment, instead of the absence of sentiment and humanity:

'I am sorry,' Temsen said with his formal forthright way of speaking. Gary hadn't expected the apology at all. 'I've had to put Efnisien first as my patient quite a few times over the last few days, but it leaves you neglected, and I don't mean the PACS, Gary. I...am doing a terrible job of being sympathetic to your circumstances. It would be easier, I think, if your actions didn't have a direct impact on Efnisien’s welfare. It’s hard to think when he’s in agony.' 'I know.' 'I keep thinking about the pain he's grown accustomed to. I'm... And on another matter, I think I'm in the strange position of realising an alpha who's that vulnerable has a kind of appeal, if I'm being honest. I think I might see you as a rival.' Gary lifted his eyebrows to indicate what he thought of that, and Temsen laughed. 'It's not a serious rivalry,' Temsen said. Gary didn’t think it was, or he’d be unable to be relaxed about it. 'I don't want him, he's too much work. But I'm pleased to have identified why I've been in such a strange state. I think it started off as protectiveness and became that thread of: 'Here's an alpha not doing a good enough job with him, I know I'd do better.' Realistically, I'm not sure I would. I'm not as kind as you are, for a start.' 'Kind?' 'I would have fucked him as soon as I knew he was in heat,' Temsen said, smiling slowly. 'Which would have been a nightmare, given the surgery he needed for a start. You're far kinder than I am, Gary, for all that you're a small-minded, petty tyrant, when it comes to your grief.'

So the specific piece of dialogue you're referring to, is Temsen referring to a hypothetical situation where he suspects he would have done the wrong thing, and it would have been literally 'a nightmare' (his words) and he discloses that he knows he wouldn't be as good a match to Efnisien as Gary is, and also apologises for putting Gary second because he's had to put Efnisien first due to the agony he's been in.

That's the sequence in which he discloses that he'd hypothetically have raped Efnisien.

Which, incidentally, is similar circumstances in which characters like Nate and other omegas on-site do get raped by their alphas. Nate didn't consent, couldn't consent, and would have withdrawn consent multiple times. Is Janusz regretting that? He absolutely is. Will he stop? No! That's...the trope, and it's what I love writing, and it's why Underline the Blue and Underline the Black have a black box Rape/Noncon warning - not because of the histories of these characters, but because of their current relationship.

"And the fact that forced sex would've been the first thing on his mind instead of investigating further and finding the source of the pain?"

Yeah, that's literally the job! You'll note that Nate doesn't get a medical/surgical examination by anyone before his pain / heat is solved by sex with Janusz (if you haven't read Underline the Blue yet, that's what happens). That's extremely standard. For about 99.9999% of omegas and anyone going into heat, the source of the pain is the heat. This is also happening in Underline the Gold but those chapters aren't on AO3 yet.

It would be really unusual if he did assume the pain was caused by something other than the heat. And the only reason he did consider it is that he knows Efnisien's prior medical history.

Hope you dont mind but UtB Temsen scares me.

I don't mind! It's literally canon that he scares and intimidates many of the characters, including Flitmouse, Efnisien (at times), Nate, Janusz (to a point), and Anton (at times). The threatening undercurrent is there because many characters canonically say they find him intimidating or frightening, because they have felt nauseous around him, and because of explicit canon details about things he's done in the past, as well as being extremely pragmatic about admitting to wanting to harm or kill people.

So in his mind, rape isn't ok if it's committed by other alphas (like ones at different facilities) but it's ok if he commits it?

In context of what I said above re: all alphas being rapists in this story, it's more like:

Raping maliciously to intentionally cause harm because you enjoy it isn't permissible. Raping to save someone from physiological agony, when there's no other safe way to deal with it, is. That's...why Hillview exists. They don't see it that way, because their culture is different to ours: Heats exist, and alphas exist. That radically changes the entirety of their culture.

And that's why the story is tagged as a Dystopian Universe story. Because that's dark as fuck.

Yes! He says this himself! :D He knows this better than anyone and that's why among other reasons, he's not an alpha companion and he's not interested in being one.

He knows his flaws, he's the one who told you his flaws, he says canonically and more than once that he doesn't see himself as especially kind or nice, he even says it in the sequence above where he admits that he would have assaulted Efnisien. Your belief is his belief, and it's a belief he shared with the readers and has shared with other characters. This isn't something Temsen hides from, and it's also not something he indulges, that's why he's not an alpha companion.

If i was an omega sent to Hillview, I would be horrified to even be in the same room as him.

Many of them are. If you haven't read them yet, you might want to look at Underline the Gold in particular, and sections of Underline the Blue, where the omegas freely admit they find Temsen at best intimidating and overwhelming. Flitmouse comes straight out and accuses Temsen of threatening him, and Temsen baldly admits that he is. And then he keeps doing it.

That doesn't mean they still don't prefer him over the other doctors they've seen though - *points forever at the Dystopian Universe* tag. Nowhere in this story are we saying he's a good consent-focused story, but we are saying this is a fucked up world where he might be the best an omega ever gets in their life.

His kindness and goodwill seem extremely conditional and feels like it could turn around any moment if someone isn't "respectful" enough. Like, he didn't like Ef talking back to him and I have a suspicion that his reaction to it would've been worse if Ef was his instead of Gary's.

Absolutely, again, that's why Temsen isn't an alpha companion.

But also, he's a peak alpha. Gary is quite unusual in enjoying the way Efnisien talks back to him, it's so unusual for peak alphas that he basically has a kink for it at this point and it's a fetish rather than like...a realistic representation of peak alphas.

Temsen seems to treat patients best when they're polite, passive and obedient, which are usually trauma responses and he knows that, but (judging by his behaviour/responses) still prefers it?

Highly recommend you read Underline the Blue and Underline the Gold, where he actively praises omegas for standing up to him!

In this sequence, Flitmouse is defending his right to death by starvation (cw anorexia and other disordered eating) and fires up:

'I've been- But I've been eating here!' said Flitmouse. Temsen's smile was sad. 'I always love when an omega can fire up a bit more around me. I appreciate you sharing this with me. It's safe to speak your mind around me. I just selfishly wish you weren't defending your right to starve to death so passionately. I'm glad you've been eating here. Keep doing it. Try to do it a little more. That's all I'm asking.

Please don't take this the wrong way, these aren't judgements!

I mean, they are judgements :D I just don't take it the wrong way because it's normal to have strong feelings about a complex and morally grey character, and Temsen is definitely that!

In addition, a lot of what you've written out is stuff that I have explicitly written out into the story, they're things Temsen has told you / other characters about himself. He is his own biggest warning, and he is very aware of his flaws and the reality of his nature, if he desperately wanted to rape omegas, don't you think he'd have chosen to be a companion by now? He certainly could have, very easily. None of this stuff is hidden or swept away, these are things Temsen puts front and centre, and then it's up to others how much they see that or don't see it. But Temsen also puts other aspects of himself front and centre which you (and others) choose to ignore or think are false, which I think is created by the tempting trap that if someone has very awful qualities, all their good qualities must be a lie or a mask.

And that's not reflective of how complex people (and characters) really are. But it's a lot easier to deal with a character when we can sweep them into the 'I just don't like them' box or the 'I just like them and I don't see the bad stuff' box.

Temsen's good qualities are very real. He's dedicated his entire life to omega QOL improvements, and has created those tangible improvements in a dystopian universe. If he was a 'normal' peak alpha, he would have euthanased Efnisien the first day he arrived on site - maybe he would have raped him first. This is very very much a dystopian universe. I'm not going to try to convince you that he's 'good' because that's very simplistic, he does very good, and even heroic things, and he does very bad, and sometimes really awful things. These are just facts about him. And then it's up to other people to decide where their line is re: liking him or not.

In fact of all the characters we've met, Janusz has raped someone on the page and Gary has (re: Efnisien), we know Anton has historically for work, and Augus.

The only significant alpha who hasn't ever done this to omegas is actually Temsen.

The most important thing to me personally is that all Temsen has told you so far is speculative. He speculates that he would have raped Efnisien, but he actually saves his life. He speculates that he's not very kind, and then puts Efnisien first and sacrifices sleep for him to find articles that will make him more comfortable. (I would tender here that you're believing his hypotheticals over his repeated actions) He doesn't tolerate disrespect from an alpha, because that's how alpha rapists are created (he is stern with Efnisien because he's an alpha, because alphas who are allowed to disrespect others become like Gwyn or Christian or Vadim), but he accepts it often from omegas, who are vulnerable and need to learn how to speak up.

That's what's important to me! But I also think he's a dick, lol, and I like that about him. I don't need a character to be good or pure to love the shit out of them, and that's how I end up writing a world where almost every alpha is a rapist to some degree, and most folks still end up giving them a pass anyway, because the stories are fun and entertaining, and these people and world's aren't real.

TL;DR: Temsen is a complex character capable of healing, heroic, cruel and controlling actions, and I think you're cherry picking certain parts of his dialogue / actions to justify how you feel about him while missing others, which is absolutely your prerogative as a reader! But honestly, if you just don't like a character, or find them too dark, you don't need a reason for it - you can just not like 'em - feelings are the most irrational things we have, after all, and often resist logical justification. :D I'm not really trying to change your mind here tbh, feelings are feelings, but I am the kind of person who will point out the inconsistencies in a discussion, especially when invited to sdlkfjsa

#asks and answers #underline the black #underline the rainbow #ohlo ohlo temsen #but yeah the first thing we have to get out of the way is every alpha in this story is a rapist #by our standards #but their in-world standards it's different #like literally different #they don't see it that way - and they would struggle to see it that way #temsen is ironically one of the few who *does* see it that way #pia on characters #pia on characterisation #temsen is one of my favourite characters in this story because he is very polarising #and because i think he exists as a way of highlighting #how manipulative and strategic it was #to make a peak alpha the doctor of a rehabilitation facility #and let's never forget that this was ultimately *Gary's* decision #which he still stands by

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