#collies are tricky for me because i DO see a lot of very nice moderate roughs - but never in the group ring at crufts

[fjordfolk]

also fci=/=tkc and while tkc is square and conservative in many ways, fci member clubs may be less. so when commenters say things like smooth and rough collies used to be interbred but aren't anymore, this is true for the UK but not necessarily for neighbouring clubs - which deals with the same stock.