#claiming that his actions were justified and the ppl he hurt should just get over it

[foreverautumn89]

@miwiromantics

Also can I just say that I hate the anti-Jonathan fans with a passion because they're awful people in general? And they like seriously remind me of the townspeople of Hawkins? Like exactly like them? They are them and its so funny they don't even realize how they act exactly like them but they hate the Hawkins townspeople. And Jonathan is their Eddie Munson. Think about it. They don't understand him. They don't try to. They believe lies others have made up about him even though the truth is right in front of them. They make him out to be a monster when really hes a hero and been a good guy all along. They ignore all the goods hes done, but hyper focus on bad things hes done. Bad things btw that they've spun their own narrative on.

But back to Jonathan and the anti-Jonathan ppl specifically: They care only about looks and appearances and no matter how horrible you are and how many bad things you've done, if you're hot enough to them, you're forgiven automatically-no matter how awful you were. Actually in some cases they even claim that the character in question never did anything wrong to begin with even though its clearly not true. Meanwhile, Jonathan who has been a good guy all his life and did one thing wrong that they make out to be something it wasn't, is evil and a monster and worse than Vecna a serial killing child abuser. And in fact-they even like Vecna. Talking about how hot he is and justifying his actions because ''his mom was mean to him''. They even defend VECNA over Jonathan. VECNA. Because why? Because hes hot and hes sexy and powerful. But Jonathan? eww.

They support Jonathan's abuse. They support him being abused by his father as a child and being locked in a trunk and thrown around. Saying he deserved much worse. They support Joyce treating him badly and think she should be worse to him. They justify him being bullied and tortured by people and claim his bully was the victim in it. They take the sides of people who have tortured him in the past. They make up lies about him to make him look like a monster. Things they know not to be true. And then back each other up on it even though we ALL saw what really happened. They have said he is worse than Vecna multiple times said he's worse than a child abusing serial killer.

Let's not forget Jonathan was abused and bullied and tortured all his life and those people have said many times that he deserves a lot worse. Cheering on his death. Cheering on Vecna torturing him and doing horrible things to him. Cheering on the idea of people hurting this abused tortured child even worse. Making up fanfiction to satisfy their desire to see him 'put in his place' and making the other characters like Nancy and the kids and everyone be their mouth pieces.

Why are we begging for those people to come to our side again? Even if they did realize that Jonathan wasn't the monster they paint him to be and start attacking other characters instead-I don't want that. i don't want people like that over here on Jonathan's side and I have to interact with people like that and then they're making other characters out to be monsters so we Jonathan fans look like trash. Hell to the no. They can stay in their own filth. I dont want them around me. It's bad enough we're already in the same fanbase thats close enough for me thank you.

And I don't want to hear from anybody else reading this Damn its just a show they're just characters. I get that. The issue is these peoples mentality. Jonathan is a character, but the people in their real lives are not. They look at a bullied abuse victim and can't see any good in him only see the bad and make up bad things about him and treat it as the truth so they can justify their cruelty. They make up lies to justify hating him and wanting to see him abused-they're this vile to a *fictional* character imagine how they treat abuse/bullied victims in real life.

[acourtofthought]

It hurts me to see so many Tamlin defenders these days it's all so triggering for me.

My parents relationship is exactly like what happened with Feyre but only the fact that she never got the chance to get out and she's still stuck and now it's too late. I see Feyre in my mother everyday but I live in a country and community that doesn't care for women opinion and they're considered as being "dramatic", "over-reacting" and "selfish". Exactly the things they call Feyre.

My mother knew while they were engaged that this wouldn't end well but her parents didn't listen to her and they said you should marry him and fix him, bring him children he will be better... bc my father been through some traumatic stuff as well. (Honestly while I was reading acotar and acomaf, I find it a cruel joke) So that was the way to justify his actions. And bc my mother didn't wants us to hate him, she would say this to us as well that it's not his fault but we grow up and we realised this isn't normal as much as he wants to claim he's traumatised. (Sounds familiar?)

my mother gave and gave and gave but never received anything from him still receives nothing from him. And you know what he does to make her shut up and don't complain? He buys her things or for us. He used to pay for my grandparents treatment. Just like Tamlin who paid for Feyre's family to keep her were she is so she wouldn't leave him.

My mother can't go out without being questioned that where is she going, how long she's out, when will she come back? She doesn't have a job!!! And the fact that he's doing it to me and my sibling as well is also very disheartening... I can't go out with my friends without being questioned bc its dangerous outside and you don't know what's coming for you... (I'm being serious this is exactly his words)

And he never hit us or hurt us in physical way that is visible, he hits with his word how he degrade my mother and sometimes us. So no one really sees what we've been through no one believe us bc there's no evidence of it...

And knowing that ppl don't even consider Tamlin an abuser but just a misunderstood character and deserving better treatment from readers while the ppl around him suffered? Yeah... its feels like people are not seeing us just bc he's hot or have money or is powerful or whatever...

I wonder if someone tells them they're overreacting and being dramatic how they would feel? To not be seen and tell them "you're acting childish suck it up"? How would they feel?

And only bc you did some nice things doesn't make you less of an abuser we need to remind that to ourselves... (just bc tamlin help in a war HE CREATED (bc he thought Feyre was his trophy) and help Rhysand to live doesn't make him less of a shitty person that he is...)

ps: this is just my experience I know for a fact that a lot of ppl experienced worse than us. its okay if you ignore this but I only wanted to get this out somewhere that might some ppl see and rethink what they're saying...

First, I'm honored you shared your story with me and I am so sorry that both you and your mother are still in such a difficult situation. It's easy for someone on the outside looking in to say, "why doesn't she just leave already?" but anyone who has first hand experience of what she's going through (either because they have witnessed a love one going through it or they themselves have) know how difficult it can actually be to walk away. They might be struggling with years of their significant other chipping away at their self esteem to the point that they truly don't think they are worth more than the treatment they've gotten, they might be in a position where they can't set off on their own for financial reasons, they might fear for what the significant other might do if they were to leave. And I do understand why, as you are currently living this, it is triggering for you to see people romanticize Tamlin or explain away his behaviors as "he was struggling so he couldn't help himself." Of course he was struggling however, that never gives someone the right to take their struggles out on others. I don't think we'll ever be able to stop those who are fans of the Justice for Tamlin rhetoric but hopefully you take some comfort in knowing that the author herself has been vocal about how wrong Tamlin's behavior was. Others can interpret the text however they want but at the end of the day, SJM, the creator of his character has told us that he is a toxic male, that the High Lord of Spring is a "douche" and I think that's all that should matter to you. You feel his behaviors were not acceptable and the one who wrote him agrees. I'm not necessarily opposed to seeing Tamlin begin to heal but I personally don't think he's redeemed himself at all at this point and I have no interest in seeing him fall in love again, regardless of his one "heroic" gesture in the war. He still physically assaulted his friend afterwards and threw Lucien's clothes on his front door. A year after the war and he's still making no effort to try and be the High Lord his people need. It's not that someone who was abusive doesn't deserve the opportunity to better themselves but I don't think they deserve forgiveness until there are actual steps being taken to actually better themselves. Since Tamlin still, as of SF, has not made any progress in the right direction, I understand why it's frustrating when excuses are being made for his behavior. Again, I am so sorry that you and your family are going through this. Growing up in that situation often effects our own relationships and self esteem and I hate that you have become a victim in something you never had any say in. Sending you lots of love ❤️

[swordfright]

c!Sam, Pandora’s Vault, and the Abject

In light of the recent c!sam lore, I wanna ramble about something that’s been on my mind a ton recently, which is that all the stuff that plays out during the imprisonment arc (and its aftermath!!!) reminds me so much of The Abject, which is this theory of psychological horror that basically claims the impetus behind much of what we call horror is the breakdown of our understanding of where the Self ends and the Other begins. I realize this already sounds wack but so is dsmp as a piece of media so like, hear me out.

Sam demonstrably struggles with issues of control and autonomy, and especially with understanding himself in relation to them. But also, interestingly, a secondary definition of the Abject concerns the recognition of desire: when the individual's relationship to its objects of desire (id/the Other) and of representation (ego/the Self) breaks down in a way they find too disturbing to confront, horror is elicited.

I don’t think it’s a crazy stretch to say that c!Sam is a character who is constantly teetering on the brink of confronting the Abject. He prioritizes his job as warden over everything else in his life (there’s so much text evidence for this idek where to start) because being the warden is an important outlet for him. It’s a role he steps into that, over time, helps him understand himself - not in a way that’s necessarily accurate, but in a way that is agreeable to him! Sam’s relationship to his object of representation (being warden) is supported and maintained via the structure of the prison itself: the existence of a prison necessitates the existence of a prisoner (without which, the prison is just an empty building), which in turn necessitates the existence of a warden (someone to guard the prisoner.) Pandora’s Vault is a place where Sam’s worldview makes sense and his life has meaning and purpose.

The “breakdown” stage happens whenever Sam is forced to confront his object of desire, which is of course, control over the prisoner. Sam wants to control the prisoner at all costs (again, so much text evidence idk where to BEGIN). Sam tells himself that the warden is necessary for protecting the server, but ultimately his words and actions show that his true motivation is not protecting others, it’s controlling the prisoner. During Daedalus, all it takes is a couple days in the maximum security cell for Sam to start panicking and questioning his own actions/worldview, because suddenly the roles of prisoner and warden are reversed and c!Dream is forcing him to experience a small fraction of what dream experienced under Sam’s watch. the reversal is horrifying because the thing that gave Sam’s worldview structure and meaning (his role as warden in relation to both prison and prisoner) is being turned inside-out. He is not enjoying the Abject, and this is part of why i personally think he doubles down on defending his past actions as warden after dream kills him and lets him go - his only option is to repress.

Another definition of the Abject is “a place of immemorial violence where meaning collapses,” so i’ll leave y’all with my final thought on the subject: for Sam, the Abject is his own desire to control the prisoner. But for Dream, the Abject is the Pandora’s Vault itself. It’s the place where Dream was forced to confront the fact that he fucked up, that his trust in Sam (a former friend) was dangerously misplaced, that the person he thought would protect him is instead enabling his torture, that he may never escape the prison he designed himself. And he designed it to be a home! He wanted the prison, it exists because Dream wanted it! And now, post-jailbreak, it occupies this liminal space: at once a home and a hell. If that’s not the Abject, i don’t know what is.

[thefloatingstone]

The whole “they’re just evil” is ableist too though. It’s basically saying well, we thought they were mentally ill, but no, they’re just evil. Similar to how people will say “you’re not depressed, you’re just lazy.” And the whole “evil child” trope can be dangerous. Some child abusers “justify” their actions by framing their neurodivergent (mentally ill, mentally disabled, autistic, etc) child as being evil or unnatural. “creepy” behaviours in movies are common in ppl that are neurodivergent.1/2

I think what it comes down to is that the horror genre is about intent in its subject matter.

The reason I like horror is because when horror is done well, it represents very clearly the fears and paranoias of the era the movie was made in.

Early horror movies (before the hayes code) had a LOT of subtext where the big fear usually was caught up in sex in some way or another. And not in an exploitative way. Movies like Cat People and Dr. Jekyl and Mrs Hyde are to do with young people who are engaged and, because it’s the 30s, are not sexually active with each other yet, but they WANT to be. And a lot of early horror has to do with sexual repression.

And then you have zombie movies which came into their own after Night of the Living Dead in 1969 and became a genre in the 70s. Zombie movies being a cultural fear of losing control of yourself and getting assimilated into a group which is slowly devouring your way of life. This can be a metaphor for immigrants, other religions, a change in social climate and old societal structures no longer being embraced by the younger generation (Zombie movies became super popular in the 70s, after the Vietnam war which was extremely protested by the younger generation, as well as racial tensions in the US rising as African Americans were coming more freely in society following the abolishment of America’s segregation in the 60s)

But some horror movies deal with fears which are universal and not contained in one one era. The fear of death is a big one but rather vague in of itself. And when framed in a movie can be rather shallow (like a slasher movie) or very deep and complex (like Jacob’s ladder or Masque of the Red Death). Other universal fears are things like war, home invasion by a criminal, being hunted (either by an animal or another human), the unknown (this often taking the form of “evil” in terms of ghosts and demons and possession etc etc), one’s own body succumbing to disease (which is where body horror comes from) and the loss of control of oneself (this is where mind control and possession and other dehumanising tropes are used, although these can cross over into the trope of cultural tension. The Invasion of the Body Snatchers is all about loved ones being replaced with unknown enemy creatures and was made (twice) during the US’ cold war with Russia)

One of the great universal fears is the concept of not being in control of one’s own mind. It doesn’t matter if you’re neurotypical or have a form of mental illness, the core concept of losing yourself to your own mind is a horrific one (and I mean this in terms of the concept, not the reality) so I feel horror movies that deal with this trope WELL, understand how to channel that fear into an effective story that resonates with its audience, regardless of who they are. However, this is VERY different than the much easier and lazier method of just claiming a bad guy is “crazy”. Because the neurotypical audience will still nod and go “yes it is very scary to think of people being crazy like that or even of myself losing my mind. That is a scary thought.” but it does NOT use the trope with the complexity and depth it needs to properly express that dark fear.

The other great fear, and one used FAR less frequently in horror movies simply because it is disturbing, is the innate fear parents have that a baby who they wish to love could have “something wrong with it.” not out of stigmatism, but because (most often) parents wish for the best for their children, and the concept of a child having a problem the parents can’t fix is terrifying. This is where movies like Eraserhead come from, however it also ties into the fear of mental illness.

There is also the thing that having mental illness within the bad guy character gives to horror but which is not only reserved for mental illness, and this is where the “evil” explanation comes from; and that is the horror that comes from the idea that a bad person is not someone you can recognise in the street as a threat. That you cannot see someone and immediately go “oh well they have horns so I KNOW they’re dangerous!” but that threat and danger and harm can hide in the nicest, kindest, most ordinary looking people. In modern times we now know you don’t need mental illness to be a threat and look normal, but I feel this is why mental illness is often used.

This brand of horror is also very important because it asks the audience “what is the difference between the person in the movie doing terrible things, and you, the audience member, who probably assumes themselves to be a good person?” Mental illness is a good answer to this because it gives the audience the uncomfortable thought of “if I had the same mental struggles, would I be doing terrible things like this too? What makes me “a good person”? Am I any different than the bad guy at all?”

Horror is a good genre because it shines a light on fears and insecurities and paranoias of human beings. Either culturally, or psychologically. And I feel the problem is that so often complex ideas and reasons BEHIND the horror is lazily boiled down to “oh well they were just crazy. That’s all.” which makes the audience not have to worry about it because “oh of course. They’re just crazy. Not like me. I’m not crazy at all.”

But this is…. this is bad writing :/ and as the previous post said (if you are the same anon) it is the using of the trope in a lazy way which reinforces itself as harmful. And you often see this in cheap horror movies who are NOT trying to say something about humanity’s deep rooted fears, but just want some teenagers to scream in the theater for 90 minutes at some fake blood and a “scary bad guy”.

I agree that modern movies should not reinforce bad stereotypes of mental illness as we often see in badly written lazy horror films, but I don’t think it’s a topic that should be untoucheable in terms of story telling. Because I feel then we deny a huge part of the human psychology.

hmmm…. how do I put this…..

Ok maybe this’ll make more sense.

Silent Hill 2 is a game where the entire subtext and plot is about depression. Without it being a plot point in any way, the game feels like it is trying to EXPRESS depression. And it expresses depression in the form of horror visuals both in terms of monsters and scenery. Depression is never mentioned and nobody talks about the symptoms of depression (not counting Angela’s suicidal thoughts but that’s not really the point here). Silent Hill 2 is a story about depression and fatal illness and suicidal thoughts. It is a game about the horror of those feelings… And you could even easily say the game even features a character with depression who is a murderer… but the game is not presenting depression as an “explanation”. But it is a game ABOUT depression. Through its visuals, sound design, atmosphere, music, it all builds together to present itself AS depression.

And I feel we need stories like that. It presents mental illness in a horrific light… but it’s… it’s different, you know? And I feel having the ability to tell horror stories about mental illness is important because then we can have stories like Silent Hill 2, which in a weird way becomes comforting if you’ve ever experienced depression. It’s like you go back to Silent Hill 2 when you’re in a depressive state and you just feel…. a little better? like “yes…. this is the emotion I am feeling. This is what it’s like. Somebdy else understands it, and this story resonates with me. And I am not alone.”

I know that is a completely different thing than what we were talking about regarding “bad guy characters in a horror movie have mental illness” but I feel it’s an important point…. because Silent Hill 2 is literally about a guy who killed someone and has a mental illness…. the difference is he’s not framed as a bad guy, but as sympathetic. WITHOUT condoning his actions.

And as for “evil” like “oh he’s not crazy he’s just evil”, I understand what you mean but I think of it more regarding either tied to religious beliefs which is a more personal fear and varies depending on who the person watching the movie is…. or the evil which is like…. Ted Bundy…. and I don’t really want to talk about that because it legit makes me incredibly uncomfortable.

(also Horror is AMONG my favourite genres or sub genres. But it depends on the film. But it’s a genre I legit am fascinated by, enjoy depending on the film, and have watched and read and own WAY too many books about).

A big function of horror movies is to acknowledge the fears humans carry within us, as well as the darker sides of humanity as a whole, and horror movies gives us a way to confront that, and not simply try to ignore it while it festers away in the back of our minds.

So it’s difficult because you can’t say “you can’t make a horror movie about x” because it ends up being more harmful than good…. but at the same time reinforcing stigmas that hurt oppressed groups is also something which should NOT be done.

This is why I tend to judge horror movies on a case by case basis X’D and also consider context, era, country of origin etc etc.

And it’s why I’m talking about this topic in such long posts. Because I feel it’s a complex problem.

But I fully agree we need a public ed campaign in teaching people about the context in which older horror movies were made and to understand how to be critical of their themes while still being able to be entertained by them.

….I didn’t even go into how monster movies like King Kong and Creature from the Black Lagoon are about cultural paranoias about people from different ethnicities and cultures “coming to steal our women”, and why you are seeing a lot more “monster fuckers” these days as our culture is slowly learning to be more empathetic to “those who are other”. Like…. I didn’t even go INTO that part of it.

…..I like horror u guys.

[phoenixfangs]

also while im at it i dont care that toastpotent himself admitted to dealing with self-hate and some internalized shit, some of yall on here have GOT to stop playing psychiatrist sometimes. why the hell is it that when someone does something wrong or mean or hurtful or whatever, instead of saying "that was fucked up u should apologize" everyone instantly instead becomes the image of tiana as stitchs pink girlfriend saying "hm uve got a trauma"

like first of all so what? second of all who the hell do u think u are trying to pathologize and diagnose ppl u dont know?? it bothers me SO MUCH how obsessed with other ppls thought processes some of yall are while also claiming that "intent doesnt matter!!!!" bitch i wish it didnt im sick to death of reading ur medical report on someone uve never met and who u only know because of this one hurtful thing they said!!

which isnt to say, like, "oh it was ONE TIME" because i dont care if it was one time, if u wanna block toastpotent bc he said something insensitive to other trans people one time or a thousand times then go for it -- my point is that since ONE person made ONE post abt his ONE post and thats whats getting traction, thats ALL the information most ppl will have when they hear abt it, and even if it was a thousand posts, it STILL wouldnt be enough to me to justify this insatiable need some ppl have here to play carl jung or whatever with other ppls mental states when they have no business doing so as a bored twenty-something with nothing better to do than analyze other ppl on tumblr like lab rats

everyone likes to dunk on true crime nerds (rightfully so) but this feels so similar to me, like how they obsess over someones motivations and their mental states to rationalize their behavior -- thats not ur job, especially not as some dork ass who is also on tumblr just like the person ur trying to diagnose! sometimes, its SO MUCH healthier just to look at somebody and decide "that sucked, that person sounds like an asshole" and MOVE ON THATS IT

and like ur not toastpotents doctor so shut the fuck up about his internalized transphobia and self-hate issues and whatever else???? thats so gross to me that ppl feel like they NEED to look for those things in him and talk abt those things to justify him saying a shitty thing, as if he needs a reason to say a shitty thing and its important that they, the vigilant tumblr doctor who reblogs stupid gifs all day, find out what that reason is and where it comes from in his psyche

i just. this also bothered me on youtube when a bunch of ppl were making videos abt kalvin garrah, and everyone tried to tie it all back to internalized transphobia, and i was just sat there like.......... okay and?? who the hell are u to make that claim? and does it even matter since the issue isnt internalized anything but actually the bullying and trauma and harm he INFLICTED with his words/actions???

moral of the story: unless u have a license or certification hanging on ur wall, shut the hell up abt other ppls mental states as a reasoning behind the shitty thing they said/did, just point at them and say "that sucked quit being an asshole" and move on