#cathedralposting

[antivancathedral]

Spite's poetry is eating me alive. What do you mean a demon writes poetry while his host is asleep. What do you mean he describes himself as a fraction of what he once was.

"a PEACE cut from the ALL" A PEACE. A peace. Not piece. He was content once. Rememburnings. The memory of what he used to be burns. An infinity instead of a small shade.

What do you mean he feels like a hooked claw into Lucanis's gut. What do you mean he can feel the joy from Lucanis when they drink coffee because Lucanis wiggles his toes. A small shade and a wounded spirit sitting together oh my fucking god

[antivancathedral]

Ask away!! And have an Adrian Mercar for the road

Rook Tarot Card Ask Game

Some in-depth character development questions for your Rook, inspired by the major arcana tarot cards

The Fool: Where did Rook's journey begin? What were they doing before joining the Veilguard?

The Magician: What are Rook's thoughts on Solas? Do they change as the story progresses?

The High Priestess: Which does Rook obey more: their head or their heart?

The Empress: What does family mean for Rook?

The Emperor: What does Rook's leadership style look like?

The Hierophant: Is Rook religious? How do they feel about the religious organizations that impact their life the most?

The Lovers: Who is your Rook's most significant relationship within the Veilguard? How do they help Rook feel seen and understood?

The Chariot: How does Rook fight? What are their preferred abilities and damage type?

Strength: What gives your Rook courage? What inspires them to keep fighting?

The Hermit: When Rook is alone with their thoughts, what do they think about? Is solitude a blessing or a curse for them?

The Wheel of Fortune: Describe an interesting character moment for your Rook. What made this moment stand out to you?

Justice: How does Rook feel about the circumstances that led to them leaving their faction? What does returning feel like?

The Hanged Man: What does Rook do when their hard work doesn't pay off? How do they cope with failure?

Death: What part of Rook do they need to kill to become the best version of themselves?

Temperance: What does Rook do to deal with the stress of their situation?

The Devil: What type of demon is most likely to target Rook? Why?

The Tower: How does Rook respond to unexpected catastrophe?

The Star: When things get dark, what gives Rook hope?

The Moon: How does Rook's past impact their values? Does their past come with any biases or blind spots they have to account for?

The Sun: What is Rook passionate about? How do they fuel that passion?

Judgement: How does Rook approach difficult decisions? How do they cope with the consequences of those choices?

The World: What does happily-ever-after look like for Rook? Is it attainable, or just wishful thinking?

[ninawolv3rina]

Anyways, I'll stop cathedralposting now

[antivancathedral]

(continues to be insane) I can’t get over the fact that Spite asks for help.

Spite is often treated childishly by several characters—Taash, for example, and even Lucanis depending on your dialogue choices—but I actually…don’t think Spite is all that childish. He’s been put into a situation he’s never experienced before, in a place where reality doesn’t work like it should, and been put through torture that he feels doubly through Lucanis on top of it all. Any person would through a “tantrum” under these circumstances. Spite’s behavior is reasonable.

He never tries to hurt Lucanis’s companions, not once. He only ever tries to leave, as Lucanis promised him he would be able to. Even Lucanis, he only hurts once outside of the Ossuary, when he must have felt unbelievably confused. Calivan is dead and Lucanis has gone home, has allies, and yet to Spite, he simply refuses to leave the Ossuary. And still, he asks. He could wrestle control from Lucanis, but instead he asks (or demands) to talk to Rook. And all he wants to say is that he wants to be free.

All and all, Lucanis does not reach out to anyone to ask for help with his depression or PSTD. Spite is his problem, he says, and says often. His burden. He never intended to let anyone in, even though he admits that he doesn’t know how to start healing. He asks for Rook’s help against Zara, against Illario, but no one is privy to his mental and emotional struggles.

Spite, on the other hand, asks immediately. Or he wants to ask. And finally, when Lucanis is in the middle of a spiral, it's Spite that says "Help us." Not demanding, just asking. Pleading. And still only to Rook. While I think at first, Spite wants Rook specifically because he knows Lucanis will listen, I think that has grown into something more by the time Inner Demons comes around.

"Help us," he says. Not just 'make him listen' or 'help Lucanis'. Us.

This is all to say I think that while Spite may not understand or feel romance (yet) he most certainly feels love. He loves Lucanis, whose image he takes ("They wouldn't dare, Lucanis is mine.") and he loves Rook ("Rook is my favorite." "Smells like...Rook." "Help us." The WINGS.) And that's all trust is, isn't it? A kind of love? Showing vulnerability to someone close to you?

When Spite is finally allowed to communicate, he shows plenty of maturity. He gives Lucanis space, he asks Emmrich to teach him fire, he's willing to try new things, and he loves.

Determination is a kind of love too, when you think about it.

[antivancathedral]

My big secret is that I thought that your lover would be the one Solas tricks you into thinking is dead after Ghilan'nain is killed and when I found out it's Lucanis no matter what, that Rook screams and runs to Lucanis no matter what, I lost my damn mind and I've been riding that high ever since.

Let me be clear in that I think Rook loves all their companions deeply. Let me also be clear in that I am very biased. But there's something so raw in that moment, after Rook shouted for Neve/Bellara before Elgar'nan stole them away, after Rook shouted for Harding/Davrin after Ghilan'nain kills them.

Rook has lost two companions already, snatched from him in a blink and irretrievable. No bodies to bury or burn. They are completely lost. And there is something so raw and aching in the fact that it's Lucanis that Rook can run to. Lucanis's body they can touch, whose coldness they can feel, whose stillness.

I imagine that is when it all really felt terribly real, that Rook had lost people and wasn't getting them back. This is the moment where the price of victory sinks in as deep as a blade. It's Lucanis whose "death" drives that point home, Lucanis who briefly shifts into Varric to remind Rook about the loss that started it all.

Since I romanced Lucanis first, I assumed that the game would replace him with whoever you'd committed to. But to see that it's him no matter what, that the final resounding crash and culmination of all Rook's losses thus far ends with Lucanis?

Solas says "Did you think you'd win the day without some painful sacrifice?" while Rook gazes down at Lucanis. My god, there is so much love in that. I can't talk about the tender look on Lucanis's face when he ran to Rook when Ghilan'nain dropped them or I'll start biting my computer but my fucking god, there is so much love between them.

[antivancathedral]

Illario does tell Rook "You chose the wrong Dellamorte" and makes comments about showing Rook around Treviso and as you mentioned about Lucanis having no heart after all....

I remember thinking, "my man, we are not cool like that" every time he said something that was clearly fishing for Rook to come to his side. Why would he take Rook around Treviso when Rook has Lucanis to do that? Because he wants Rook to think that Lucanis is terrible company.

I don't think Illario has real feelings for Rook, aside from maybe some physical attraction if that floats your boat, but I do think he feels like Rook should be his in a way. Not just because Rook is a powerful ally, but because Lucanis wants Rook, and he's obvious about it (thank you Teia, for poking fun at him). And I think Illario is jealous of Lucanis socially too, because Lucanis is kind and thoughtful of his companions even when he barely knows them, and people tend to like that. Illario is described as "silver-tongued", which is in my opinion a convoluted way of saying his relationships tend to be shallow or even false (hello, Zara), and he has such an air about him that I find it difficult to believe he has many (or any) genuine relationships. Part of this I reckon is because such steep jealousy tends to corrupt any desirable personality traits, and part I reckon is just a fact of being a high ranking Crow.

If it comes out that Lucanis has his own brand of charm (that's Illario's thing!!) then what does Illario have that's his own? And furthermore...if Lucanis starts making solid, strong relationships outside of Illario, then...what's a guy to do when his cousin's friends start telling him that maybe his intentions are a little more glaringly obvious than Lucanis realizes?

Just analyzing Ilario and Lucanis’s relationship and it’s got me thinking…I know Lucanis makes at least one comment in game that Ilario has always been a better flirt/much smoother in that area than him. And yes while Lucanis is naturally more reserved than his cousin, I’m wondering if some of this wasn’t put into his head by Ilario. Because yall that jealousy for Lucanis did not just manifest overnight. That has been building for some time. I’m barely into the Wigmaker Job and Ilario’s already made a comment about not being the favorite/the lesser Dellamorte/etc. Besides, Lucanis isn’t bad looking in the slightest and, according to Teia, has a heart underneath the intense exterior. I imagine people have crushed on him before, even if it’s secretly.

ANYWAYS, what if anytime Lucanis dared to admit to liking someone (and his crushes may have already been few and far between) Ilario got in the middle of it and ruined it? Not an “in your face” ruined it (since Lucanis still doesn’t see him as a full fledged problem until we discover the betrayal with Zara) but making little subtle “teasing” put downs that keep Lucanis from really trying for it? Joking like what Lucanis would even talk to them about if it’s not his job or wyverns. What gifts would he get them since he’s such a bad gift giver (hello knives to Viago). Etc. Just things that could be passed off as teasing but with hindsight, were actually little points of sabotage that kept Lucanis from trying further. (We see how he is in Lucanis’s mind prison and how he is on the coffee date trying to play that Lucanis is unreasonable and irrational after Caterina’s apparent murder. AND how Ilario portrays Lucanis to the rest of the Talons when Ilario tries to seize power. Not to mention that letter he writes Lucanis after Zara is taken care of).

THEN on top of mentally sabotaging any romantic chances for his cousin, maybe Ilario even dares to seduce whoever Lucanis liked just for the fun of it, just to prove he can have anything Caterina’s favorite has or wants. Not saying it happened every time butttttt it would add another interesting layer to their dynamic. And we know it’s likely Lucanis would have overlooked it since he’s got such little family left and man just wants to be loved.

[antivancathedral]

I can't stop thinking about when you find the Echo's well in the crossroads after you seal it in the Wetlands, and Spite remarks that it smells like Rook.

I'm haunted by the implications of this. This is an intelligent Despair demon that ruined an entire family by offering them hope and safety from the Blight and then snatching it away. It offered them salvation. For it to offer Rook to Spite, for Rook to be the best or even the only out that Spite can see...

Regardless of whether you romance Lucanis, and regardless of whether you believe Spite is or isn't a part of their relationship, this to me is yet more proof that Spite and Lucanis both love Rook very much. I haven't played a Minrathous route, so I can't speak on that much, but if you save Treviso it just seems so clear that Lucanis and Spite both come to depend heavily on Rook. For Rook to be the embodiment of hope for Spite and safety/comfort for Lucanis...

Idk. This is the stuff ships are made of or whatever the hell. I'm going crazy thinking about this tiny little interaction that's so easy to miss.

EDIT: GOD. "You opens doors, you don't close them" YEAH. OKAY.

[antivancathedral]

Crazy about the idea that Rook can tell who's touching them. Lucanis with his lithe and dexterous hands, fingers caught up in the curves and contours of Rook's body, worshipful and reverent, and Spite with his rough and clumsy grabbing, the greedy indentions of his jealous grip, like a starving dog who fears his food stolen.

[antivancathedral]

Y'all ever think about how much more clearly Spite speaks when in Lucanis's mindscape in comparison to having to take Lucanis over to speak. Short, punctuated words with little emotional inflection aside from anger and demands with Lucanis's voice vs. Full or nearly full sentences with sarcasm, dry impatience, calm description of emotion within the mindscape.

And only with Rook. When he faces the guards, the disjointedness returns, slowly but surely. Worse the further into Lucanis's mind you travel, worse when he faces Lucanis. A spirit learning to speak in our world is difficult, we know that...but less so when he's talking to Rook, which is what he's asked for since the beginning. It's so subtle but so important.

I imagine it feels similar to learning a second language, where you have a perfect imagining of what you WANT to say but can't articulate it in a way the person you're speaking to understands. And I think the fact that he speaks most clearly to Rook, who is one of the few people who seems to want to understand him, even above Lucanis for a certain length of time....

I could write a thesis.

[antivancathedral]

I don't even know how to word this in a way that makes sense and I think in an overall world building sense this is a major case of "Man I think it depends" but I actually don't think Spite is a "demon".

Spirits and Demons are essentially the same, yes, and I think there's much to be said about this in in parallel to a healthy person vs a deeply traumatized person, but to quote Neve, "one is more likely to manipulate you, or kill you," etc etc.

A demon is a spirit whose purpose has been twisted. And I don't think Spite's purpose has been twisted much at all.

Determination's purpose is "accomplish my goal (whatever that may be)". Spite (the emotion)'s purpose is exactly the same, with the added benefit of "especially against the wishes of others".

I think the demonic version of Determination would be "Ruthlessness", not Spite.

Spite (the guy) is not wholly consumed by his purpose like other "demons" are. He doesn't pursue his goals at the expense of his companions. He has several other interests even if they seem a little silly (learning what tastes good, or even new forms of combat like fire). And he tells us his purpose several times...it's his promise with Lucanis! Escape, kill, and live! This goal is one of determination and it has not changed by his becoming Spite. The goal is not warped in any way even with his joining to Lucanis.

Bellara speculates as to why Spite doesn't just take Lucanis over or turn him into a nasty mound of flesh. I want to argue that this is because Spite is a named spirit, not a demon.

What's more spiteful than not allowing your captors to change you? What says fuck you to people who would use you as a tool than self-determination? What's more spiteful than being determined to be free, to fight who would enslave you, to live?

My working theory is that Spite is not a demon in the same sense as, say, Wisdom being corrupted into Pride, which twists a desire to guide, teach, or navigate situations with care into a desire to be right and unchallenged.

I think Spite is to Determination as Eulogy is to Compassion.

[antivancathedral]

Thinking desperately about the difference between Lucanis's first attempted hit at Ghilan'nain, where his body is perfectly poised and straight like an arrow, even before he and Spite reconcile.

And on his second attempt, with Ghilan'nain having just foiled his attempt again, Harding or Davrin just lost, and Rook in her grasp, his attack is beautiful still, maybe even more so. But it's not acrobatic, not poised. Even when having reconciled with Spite, in the face of this loss, Lucanis leaps out of pain and desperation, and this time he strikes true.

And then he loses Rook anyway.

[antivancathedral]

Building off this post by @karissaeb

What an incredible catch. I've only played through the ending once so far and I think I was so busy taking everything in that I didn't notice, but wow. Spite using his own voice to tell Solas to fuck off. "You hurt Rook. You lie."

How does Spite see Solas? In lines with other characters who refer to Solas as Pride, Solas says that he prefers Wisdom. I talk a bit here about Spite vs Determination and even use Pride vs Wisdom as an example, but...we can all agree this point that Solas isn't wise, right? Clever, sure. Wise? A wise man would know when to call it quits. When yearning for the past becomes too detrimental to the future to be worth doing. When Solas calls him "Determination" and Spite corrects him, it serves several purposes.

1) Spite tells Rook that there are three kinds of people: Family, enemies, and contracts. Solas is an enemy. Friends or family are allowed to call him Determination if they feel so inclined (Rowan, Isabella) but Solas is not in this category, as Karissa mentions, and Spite wants (spitefully!) to let him know that.

2) It reminds Solas that what happens to you shapes you. The way you respond to those events shapes you. Determination? Pah. Spite is something sharper, something more vindicating, something angrier. Wisdom? Pah. Pride is manipulation towards your own goals instead of guidance. Pride is insistence in your own views with disregard to all others. Solas is changed and warped by trauma. Spite's correction is a reminder and a demand. Acknowledge what changed me, and what changed you.

And the delivery of this line! It's not sharp and abrupt, not curt like you'd expect of someone who doesn't want anything to do with this guy. "Spite," he says, and I almost felt like I could hear him smile and turn up his nose there, like he was flashing his teeth. He sounds pleased with his own identity and threatening all at once, the way Lucanis sounds when he says "The Crows send their regards."

And when Solas offers his help, that mask slips. Now those bared teeth sound gritted. Now there is an echo of something dark underneath his voice, and it's his voice.

This is the only time in the whole game that other people get to hear Spite's voice, aside from the time in Rook's mind prison and Emmrich's unique ability.

Referencing yet another of my posts, Spite speaks in slow chunks of sentences because he has to force his way to the surface of their body. He has to wrest control of Lucanis's mouth from him, and even after they reconcile and his speech improves a bit, it's clearly a struggle.

Spite is not a weak spirit, but speech through a mouth with two souls at the helm is difficult. You know how you become stronger when overcome with rage or panic? Perhaps it was easier because the Veil is thin here, with all the magic bullshit happening, but I can't help thinking it's a combination of the two. Solas has offered to rip Spite away from Lucanis, who I maintain that Spite loves, and he's hurt Spite's favorite person. Rook, who opens doors for him, who accompanied him steadfastly to Lucanis's mental inner sanctum. Rook, the only person to listen to him, to offer him a rope that would lead to his freedom. Rook, who is one of the very few people Spite can claim a relationship of any kind with.

Why should he trust Solas with Lucanis when Solas hurt Rook? When Lucanis and Spite where there when Solas sealed Rook away? When Rook vanished before their eyes? Can you imagine the thick, palpable, choking fury that would've overcome him, hearing that audacious offer?

This to me is the most blatant and tangible way Spite has shown his love throughout the game. The raw emotion in this single action is so, so potent. Fuck you, you lie. Know that all this love, and all the righteous anger that accompanies it, is mine.

[antivancathedral]

Okay I understand people feeling a little babied by being told what options are the romance options but personally as the most socially awkward most autistic motherfucker in the world, I'm very glad it did.

I already have trouble understanding how my own tone comes across to others in real life. I've often being accused of treating people like theyre stupid when teaching the something, even though to me I'm just trying to be as clear as possible so no misunderstandings are had. It's very difficult for me to tell the tone of how a character will say something, especially with nothing but a line of text that most often doesn't match the dialogue at all (which can't be helped, because most times the dialogue is too long to fit).

As someone who already replays conversations several times to find the most "in character" responses for my Rook, flavor indicators are crucial for me. I'm not here to play a Telltale "Glass him" game every time I talk to my companions.

I don't really see what the problem with this is either. The previous games used colors/icons to tell you what flavor of response each option is, yeah? Didn't only Origins give you the exact phrase you would say due to the protagonist not being voiced, thus eliminating the need for dialogue wheel icons?

I understand not wanting to be babied and I get poking fun at the het cis gamer dudes for needing to be told they're flirting with a man, but this is an accessibility feature. Maybe that's not something you need but other people (like me) very much do. And I don't think anyone who has ever talked to another person can say it's particularly comfortable to have someone think you're flirting with them when you really, truly and honestly were not.

[antivancathedral]

Surprise t'was I that asked the question! Major spoilers below.

I've been thinking on it again since I got the scene again for my second go around. It's kind of funny thinking about the near kiss from Spite's point of view. Thinking Lucanis would be pleased at having hurt or disappointed Rook is silly to a human person, sure, but for a demon who has spent the majority of his time on the mortal plane wanting revenge against his torturers?

I wish badly we could've seen the aftermath of that scene. This I think would've been Spite's first real clear indication of the categories Lucanis puts people into (that is, "family, enemies, or contracts"). Did Lucanis have to explain to him exactly which people fit into the first category? How did he frame it? Would he have had to say that the Venatori wouldn't want him to have anyone else at his side for Spite to get it? Or did he say that having Rook would make him happy, and that something he couldn't explain was denying him what he wanted?

I don't personally subscribe to the idea that the wings in the final romance scene was all Lucanis when he's denied having control of it before. I want to know how the progression from Spite's confusion at turning away from a kiss turned to shielding Rook's body after the Fade entrapment. I want to know about the progression from Spite's confusion to the explicit trust he showed Rook by pulling them into Lucanis's mind, to Rook being Spite's favorite.

What about just after Solas seals Rook away? Did Spite feel like something he considered his, the way Lucanis is his, got taken away from him? His favorite? When Lucanis calls for Rook as the gang pulls them out of the fade, is the lurch of his heart only his own?

I wish so much we could've seen more emotional displays from all the companions but especially something from Spite. I've said so before but I don't think Spirits can't feel things outside of their scope of emotion because it's just impossible for different kinds of emotions to not overlap and intersect, and I would've given anything to see Spite actually learn to recognize what Lucanis felt for Rook, and maybe even come to understand or even empathize with it.

[antivancathedral]

Finally starting my Rookanis fic

[antivancathedral]

One must consider the way Spite talks with disdain about Spirits of Compassion only to finally be able to properly bond with Lucanis because one single person showed him enough compassion to hear what he had to say