#ca:cw discourse

[girlchomp]

captain america squashed that bug boy minor (mr peter parker) for the simple crime of being small (believing they should listen to the UN)

[musette22]

Hi Minnie! I don't mean send an ask that isn't stucky related so if it's one you don't want to answer I understand.

I made the mistake of going into the TeamIronman tag on ao3 yesterday. I wasn't in the fandom when Civil war came out so I watched the movie as a passive viewer and missed a lot of the teams conversation. But I was curious because I've always been staunchly TeamCap so I clicked on the tag and it shocked me. So many of the TeamIronman fics twist Steve to make him out to be the villain even when he so clearly isn't. I mean i understand disagreeing with him on the accords and his actions in the movie but to completely twist the character so completely that's he's basically unrecognisable is strange to me. They make up all sorts of things like it's Steve's fault that Tony had a bad relationship with his father which doesn't make any sense because Steve was in the ice during that time.

To me, it seemed like majority of the TeamIronman fics don't have a leg to stand on based on the facts given to us in the movie so they're twisting Steve and Bucky to make them the villains. Not all of them, but a majority of them seem to be convinced that Team Cap should beg for Tony's forgiveness and sign the accords anyway. I don't really get it and I was wondering if you have any idea where the animosity comes from? I could be wrong but I haven't seen this in the Team Cap fics that tend to treat Tony pretty fairly and say that he understandably angry when he sees the footage of his parents death.

Hi lovely! Don't worry, you're welcome to send me asks about whatever you like, as long as they're respectful, which this message seems to be!

This is a bit of a tricky subject, in the wider Marvel fandom context, but it's also an interesting one imo. I don't want to start (or revive, I guess) a big debate at all, I'm personally very happy to just enjoy my Stucky fics and the Team Cap fandom these days, and not worry or even think about the existence any other fandoms/ships that include our boys. What they do over there is their business, and ultimately, I just don't want to know the details. I also wasn't in the fandom during the Civil War days, so I was never involved in the debate at the time (though I would always have been Team Cap, there's no question about thay for me). But I will admit that I have in the past also noticed and wondered about the same things you're describing right now, so I understand where your confusion is coming from.

I think it might have something to do with the comics, like perhaps there's more going on there than there was in the MCU, and that's where some of the Team Iron Man support/anti Team Cap behaviour stems from? But maybe not, I don't actually know anything about the comics myself, so I may well be wrong about that.

But anyway, when considering the Civil War conflict as it was presented in the MCU, I just can't understand how people could side with Tony without any understanding for Steve's perspective, or how they could ever make Steve (and Bucky) out to be the villain(s). I think you'd have to spectacularly misunderstand Steve's character and the circumstances that led to Bucky becoming the Winter Soldier to do so. Steve being a thoroughly good man is the main reason why he even became a superhero in the first place, it's essential to his very existence. And as for the idea that Bucky is a villain rather than a victim... well, that just makes my blood boil, and always will.

I personally don't dislike Tony, I just think the MCU didn't do him any favours in those final movies, and I much prefer the more reasonable, inherently kind version of him we often see in Stucky / Team Cap fics. So no, I personally don't understand the need for such animosity either to be honest, nor where it comes from. (I have some ideas about why some people might idolise Tony and want to see him as the guy on the right side of history/the victor, and Steve as the opposite, but lets just say that I don't think I would see eye to eye with those people in real life either)

Anyway, this is all just my opinion, and I'm really not looking to antagonise anyone or start a big discussion. We're all entitled to our own fandom opinions, it's mostly just entertainment in the end, and as long as we don't harass others with our opinions or go looking for conflict, I think it's all fine. But I also don't think there's any harm in discussing questions like these within our own circles, so yeah, thanks for your message and I'm sorry I can't really shed more light on the situation for you!

[rbr-seb]

*breathes*

I CANNOT BELIEVE WE ARE STILL HAVING CAPTAIN AMERICA CIVIL WAR DISCOURSE IN THIS DAY AND AGE I MEAN NUMBER ONE THE NAME OF THE MOVIE GIVES IT AWAY ITS A CAPTAIN AMERICA MOVIE SO GUESS WHO THE HERO IS IF I HAVE TO READ ONE MORE oh but Steve hates the rules and Steve hates Tony and Bucky killed Tony’s parents! I WILL FUCKING COME FOR YOU YOU DO NOT DISRESPECT MY MAN IN HIS OWN MOVIE THE WHOLE POINT IS HOW THE GOVERNMENT USUALLY ONLY ACTS IN ITS OWN INTERESTS AND IS NOT AFRAID TO TAKE AWAY THE AUTONOMY OF OTHERS AND BUCKY WAS BRAINWASHED WHAT PART IS NOT CLEAR ISKDJAKDKAKKDKFKAKSXN

[aislingeach88]

We needed a moment in Endgame where Bucky saved Tony’s life. Even just a quick scene of Bucky sniping a bad guy right behind him. No smiles or quips, just a glance of acknowledgment between them. One last little bit of catharsis for them both to put the Civil War stuff behind them.

[kandisheek]

FIC REC WEEK 23 – POST-CA:CW

Over Sea, Under Stars by vorkosigan

Pairing: Steve/Tony Rating: T Words: 36,651 Tags: Depression, Fix-It, Texting

Summary: Tony gets the phone, but he never uses it and he never intends to. Or, he doesn’t until Steve starts texting him, asking strange questions about medication and mental health, which is when Tony gets worried. (A texting fix-it that grew beyond all proportion. Deals with depression and anxiety quite a lot. There is even some plot in there somewhere.)

Reasons why I love it: This fic makes me so goddamn emotional. They hurt each other so much, and the guilt floating around is so thick it feels like it's choking me. But when things get better, it's so rewarding and satisfying, it almost makes me cry. Also, if you read this, pay attention to all the time-stamp descriptions, because they're hilarious. This fic is wonderful and a brilliant fix-it to the whole mess that is Civil War, so if you haven't read it yet, I hope you give it a whirl.

Forms of Love by bear_bell

Pairing: Bucky/Tony Rating: E Words: 33,596 Tags: Civil War Team Ironman, Separate Personalities (Winter & Bucky), PTSD

Summary: Months after the Avengers' dispute in Germany, the team returns to the US and moves back into the tower. As always, everyone pretends that nothing happened. Tony is just fine with this. He's used to pretending, and he'll be damned if he lets any of them see him flinch. Tony's the bad guy, after all. He's used to it. He's fine with it. He's good at it. Only now, there's something far worse loitering around the tower - The Winter Soldier. No one notices the guy at first, but when they do, Tony figures that he should have the soldier's back. Birds of a feather should flock together, and the bad guys should start a book club.

Reasons why I love it: I gotta be honest, I'm not a big fan of CW discourse when a specific side is taken. So it says a lot that I enjoyed this fic regardless. Even though it clearly leans towards one side of the argument, it's handled in a way that feels respectful and understandable. The writing is amazing, and I ADORE the relationship that Tony has with both Winter and Bucky. Plus, the way Bucky slowly learns to stop fighting Winter and starts getting along with him instead is really beautiful. This fic is wonderful, and I highly encourage you to read it!

The Crying Game by fohatic

Pairing: Steve/Tony Rating: E Words: 36,416 Tags: Angry Sex, Dubious Consent, Power Play

Summary: Steve Rogers stared at the dimly glowing digital screen of the little burner phone, rereading the text message as if it might somehow give away something he missed the first dozen times he scrutinized it. His frown only deepened, though, brows drawing together with consternation as the 88 characters only left him with an even more ponderous sense of uncertainty. If you meant what you wrote, I'll be at the Swissotel Sarajevo, 4/18. Presidential Suite. 9pm. Come alone. Nearly a year after Steve and Tony's fallout—and only weeks after hearing press rumors that Tony and Pepper's engagement was inexplicably called off—Steve gets a message on the dedicated burner phone. Despite his instinctive reservations, he's compelled to answer the mysterious call.

Reasons why I love it: Oh, this one hurts SO GOOD!! I just want to take them both and shake them, god, the emotional conflict is so raw and awful, and I LOVE it! It's like that feeling of wanting to peel off a scab, and then you do it and it hurts, but the itching goes away so it's worth it. If that makes any sense at all. Point is, I love this fic to bits, and you should give it a read (if you can stomach some unpleasant emotions, that is).

[ext1nctanimals]

broke: steve rogers was right in civil war because he was simply defending bucky who did nothing wrong because he was brainwashed

woke: tony stark was right in civil war because he was focusing on the issue of regulation and superheroes need to be regulated because otherwise they pose a threat to the public

bespoke: the government, especially the american government, is too corrupt to be trusted managing the power that the avengers possessed.  by signing the accords, they would have become weapons of the american military industrial complex which is inherently evil as an institution, and Steve not wanting to sign the accords could have aligned him with a more anarchist and revolutionary perspective as he loses hope in the idea of the government liberating oppressed people and begins to trust the idea that people liberate themselves  

[portraitoftheoddity]

I just read your Civil War discourse post and, honestly, you get the biggest round of applause. I, by no means, hate Tony for the side he chose and I love him just as much as I do Steve, but Steve always gets a bad rap for his role in CW because everyone just wants to boil it down to him trying to protect Bucky. I think if most people had actually paid attention to that movie and what agenda the accords were hiding, no one would’ve signed them! Thanks for coming to my TED Talk. -🅱️

I also don’t hate Tony! I think he’s a complicated, fascinating character -- though I confess I am a little frustrated with the direction the writers took with his character by undoing a lot of his growth in Iron Man 3 (which I thought was a good movie) in order to shoehorn him into the center of AOU and CA:CW, though that’s my own personal peeve. But man, I remember watching Iron Man (2008) a gazillion times when it came out and loving it to bits! And I love the ways in which he is the model of an Aristotlean Tragic Hero Archetype. RDJ’s performance is spectacular to boot. 

And you’re spot on about people boiling things down -- inaccurately -- into being about Bucky. Part of the problem with the CA:CW discourse, I think, is the amount of focus on fandom around Stucky -- and this isn’t a criticism of Stucky! Just about how fandom distortions around ships can alter perceptions:

There’s this myth in fandom that 100% of everything Steve does and thinks is completely about Bucky all the time. And while Bucky is absolutely an important part of Steve’s life, they are both individuals with their own priorities and their own choices. Steve has a strong sense of right and wrong, and a lot of experiences with corrupt institutions outside of Bucky on which he bases his decisions. But the fandom echo chamber reframes everything as being Bucky-centered in CA:CW for the romance of it, when.... that isn’t really accurate. And so Team Iron Man folks who are also exposed to this fanon then frame Steve as acting irrationally and making everything all about Bucky, because that’s the exaggerated fandom shipping narrative dominant on tumblr, despite that not being what happens in canon. 

The thing about the Accords is -- I don’t think ANYONE thought that some kind of agreement for ensuring More Bad Shit didn’t happen was a bad idea. Steve makes it clear that the structure of this specific law -- which completely deprives the Avengers of any agency while putting dangerous amounts of power in the hands of a few countries’ governments (mainly the former-imperialist nations who have permanent seats on the UN Security Council) and denying human rights to Enhanced Individuals -- is not something he’s comfortable with. And then there’s no compromise available, because the thing is being railroaded through with no time for deliberation, amendment, discussion, or even a fucking lawyer to look it over. This is misrepresented by the other side as Steve refusing any kind of oversight ever. 

And part of the reason both sides end up talking past one another is that one side is arguing about whether or not the ideal of legislation like the Accords -- and what they are allegedly supposed to accomplish -- is right, and basing a pro-Accords argument on that, while the other is arguing against the reality of the Accords -- and the agenda Ross actually designed them to accomplish -- to point out that the actual implementation of the Sokovia Accords is an Authoritarian disaster. And those are two different conversations, and two positions that can be simultaneously right. The idea of some kind of legal framework that the Avengers should have to abide by in order to defend the rights of nations and individuals isn’t a bad one. The Accords are also not the right framework to make that happen. 

[fiovske]

man, i really wish the MCU hadn't abused the Accords as a petty trigger for a Tony vs Steve feud bc the Accords are a very serious issue and the MCU doesn't examine the pros and cons of the accords or deal with any consequences of it thereafter, it just sidelines the whole political issue of the accords for a certified big bad™ Thanos bc clearly the MCU doesn't have the nuance to tell an impartial story of the Accords without taking sides.

The Accords aren't necessarily a bad thing. There should be a legislature to keep this American private organisation in check! They run rampant on foreign soil and answer to nobody, that's vigilante work! and when someone comes into my own house, blows up my roof and says, "don't worry! this is for the greater good!" you bet i am going to be pissed bc idc what greater good! you just destroyed my own home! looking at Team Cap through the post-colonial perspective really rattles you, let me tell you that. People who are "superheroes" need to be held responsible for their actions.

Note: The Avengers don't even issue a public apology after Lagos, which should've been done pronto. Steve says "we can't save everyone" and it sounds dismissive bc yes even though you can't save everyone it doesn't really weigh on you that foreign civilians lost lives, on foreign soil bc you refused to involve some officials in the loop and evacuate the areas to avoid any collateral damage in the measure of lives. You should sign the Accords bc you owe it to the people you have sworn to protect!

On the other hand, Steve also has a point for not signing the Accords and i hate that the Russos make it more personal than political bc it is a political issue and should be examined as such! Steve's reasons for signing should've been more than just "the safest hands are still our own". As a non-American, that sentence terrifies me.

That being said, once they sign, a natural list of their names are made. And anytime lists are made the names on the lists stand as a threat, to others and to themselves as well. (this issue is very well explored in Agents Of Shield season 4 i think)

But the fact that you can't trust the people who are asking you to sign the Accords is also very telling. The militant agenda of "either sign the Accords or go to prison/retire" ...is messed up. But as Natasha's says, "one hand on the steering wheel and you can still drive". If you don't do it it'll be done to you anyway because 117 countries don't feel safe around you, pal!!!! that's messed up!!! if you wanna change some terms and shit, sign it! Get on board and work @ it from the inside. In cases like these stubborn headassery does not work! Plus, if you sign, you can have the Accords ammended, why give up that position of power that you may be able to hold if you just stop punching your way through things?

Also, we never see any consequences for people who sign, its just a passing ref of "The Accords". We don't see the red tape or the bureaucracy that goes into the agendas that Steve so vehemently detests, and fresh from the Winter Soldier plot, he has every right to. But then again, i hold a belief that TWS shouldn't have been a Captain America movie. At least not yet. We should've had a chance to explore Steve Rogers in the 21st century. He's a different man now from the one who went under 70 years ago. We should've had the chance to see him, his PTSD and his breaking and rising instead of him being used as a cardboard cutout of "Captain America: the concept". We don't get to explore the Steve Rogers story but that's a whole other post, anyway my point re: The Accords. You see when lists are made of people, there's a high chance of that list falling into wrong hands and being abused. Up and coming superheroes would have a hard time bc they are liable to being discovered. But they also need guidance and as bad as it sounds they are a threat to themselves as they are to the general population. But they are also people and its a very very tricky territory to deal in when you bring in the issue of enhanced humans etc. See, this is a very difficult issue and we should have actually had a nuanced movie that deals with the pros and cons of the Accords in equal measure.

Instead we get that the movie was basically to drive Tony and Steve into opposite camps so as the "break the Avengers apart" for angst value so when Thanos comes they're unable to fight back. Lame, that's a lame excuse.

What i'm saying is: The Accords shouldn't have been a Captain America movie in the first place. It's an issue that should have been examined more attentively for the complexity that it carries and independently of a bias that it is so inclined to bc of the damn title of the movie itself— at the end of the day it was a Captain America movie. And that itself explains why putting it a tailend movie in a titular trilogy was the wrong way to go about dealing with something of this magnitude.

[lokeanrampant]

These things always angered me for exactly these reasons.

Let’s talk about the Sokovia Accords!

Hoo boy! Let’s have a chitchat about the Sokovia Accords, shall we? I’ve seen a number of arguments for and against them, but let’s break them down.

Any enhanced individual who agrees to sign the accords must register with the united nations and provide biometric data such as fingerprint and DNA samples. 

LOL. Okay. So, let’s talk about this data bank and how dangerous it is. Let’s talk about who has access to this information and these samples, because this is a clone saga waiting to happen. 

At best, it gives the UN the ability to make an army. At worst, it gives the UN the ability to make an army.

Those with secret identities must reveal them to the UN. 

Cuz that goes well every time a hero is outed and doesn’t give their enemies license to go after their loved ones.

Those with innate powers must submit to a power analysis which will categorize their threat level and determine potential health risks. 

Uhm.

Whatcha gonna do if you feel their threat level is too high, UN? Who gets to decide that? How is it decided? 

Those with innate powers must wear a tracking bracelet at all times. 

Problem one: Who is tracking them? What if that tracking information lands in the wrong hands and suddenly Hydra is like “WOO! WE GOT LOCATIONS!” and all those people wearing tacking bracelets are suddenly murdered? 

Problem two: This stinks of a way to ID them to the public in the same way the Nazis used the Star of David before they started shipping Jews to camps. And no thank you.

Any enhanced individual who signs is prohibited from taking action in any country but their own, unless they are first given clearance by the UN or that country’s government. 

Hey! This one makes sense! Communication is great! 

Governments are prohibited from deploying enhanced individuals outside of their own national borders unless given the clearance stated above. The same rule also applies to non-government agencies, such as SHIELD, and the Avengers. 

Again! Totally fine. Talk to each other before you bust in.

“Yo! We think maybe there’s a thing happening! Government of foreign nation, are you cool with us coming and helping out?” 

“Yeah, dude! Haul that sweet ass over here!” 

Great!

Any enhanced individual who does not sign will not be permitted to take part in any police, military, or espionage activity or take part in any national or international conflict, even in their own country. They will not be allowed to take on missions run by private institutions such as SHIELD either.

…Eh…I mean…I see what you’re doing here, accords? But a number of things can happen that would be not so awesome surrounding this rule, including enhanced individuals being framed for breaking this rule, and governments ignoring this rule when the shit hits the fan and they need specific people’s help, accords or not.

Also, espionage is espionage for a reason. It’s a great cover.

Any enhanced individuals who break the law (including vigilanteism) or are otherwise deemed to be a threat to the safety of the general public may be detained indefinitely without trial.

Holy shit no. 

Again, I ask, who gets to decide whether an enhanced person is TOO POWERFUL?? And no trial? At all? Somebody get the ACLU on the fucking phone! This is some horse shit right here.

If an enhanced person violates the accords, or obstructs the enforcement of the accords they may likewise be arrested and detained without trial. 

Oh yeah? For how long? Who decides? They’re just tossed into the raft and forgotten about? Damn. Clint and Scott got fucking LUCKY with their plea deals! 

The use of technology to bestow individuals with innate superhuman abilities is strictly regulated, as is the use and distribution of highly advanced tech (Asgardian, Chita’ri).

Oh, regulated. Not banned outright. I see. Cuz Tony.

The creation of self aware artificial intelligence is strictly prohibited. 

Uhm.

This is so awkward. Are the Accords retroactive? Cuz…uh…Vision existed when they were created. And uh…also Tony still uses Friday. A lot. 

So awkward. 

The Avengers will no longer be a private organization and will operate under the UN.

Let me explain why this is bad: 

The UN is run by the world’s governments, which makes any Avenger who signs the accords beholden to their whims and at their beck and call no matter how the Avengers themselves might feel about it. 

If the team or a member or two disagree with what the UN is up to, the UN may just decide that those members, or the team as a whole, are “too powerful” and throw them in jail with no trial for however long they feel like, because the time frame isn’t spelled out anywhere.

Or, let’s look at the current world political climate: 

The United States has an administration that is…fucking terrible, and has pulled out of the UN for the most part. They’re storing innocent people in camps, they’re rolling back civil liberties for women and the LGBTQIA+ community, and they are destroying the environment because they like money more than anything else in the whole world and they wanna help their rich, racist buds.

Since the Avengers are, mostly, American citizens, there’s nothing stopping the US from doing a number things:

1. Taking their toys and going home, amending the accords so the US Avengers are at the beck and call of the US goverment.

2. Disbanding the Avengers altogether.

3. Again, claiming they are too powerful and throwing them in jail when they inevitably turn on the government and start liberating immigrant camps (They do, in fact, have a member who has personal experience in liberating prison and concentration camps, and he’d be the first one on the quinjet for that mission).

So there are literally two regulations in the above list (the only confirmed part of the accords we have as fans) that make any damn sense and don’t violate liberties, or make for some very dangerous situations that would cause some bad, bad things to come about.

TL;DR: The accords are a nightmare of potential “whoops all your DNA got out and now there is an army of clones with the spliced DNA of every single hero we had on file and they know where you are via your cute li’l bracelet so they’re coming after you,” and “LOL we don’t like you right now, so we’re putting you in jail for however long we feel like, bye, bitch!” 

Sing me another one.

[superhusbands-superfan]

Just re-watched Civil War

And had a very sad realization (shocking? Not a bit)

Mid-fight with Steve, FRIDAY says “You can’t beat him hand-to-hand,” and Tony replies, “Analyze his fight pattern.” And then we actually *see* FRIDAY run the analysis in real-time. I’m talking:

Analysis of Steve’s fighting form and the shield,

an in-depth scan of the suit, and finally

Analysis of the literal impact force of Steve’s hits. 

You could read into this in a lot of different ways. But I’ll tell you what it meant to me. 

It meant that in every interaction Tony could conceive of with Steve, in every contingency Tony ever thought through, in thousands of possibilities Tony Stark never once thought he’d have to fight Steve Rogers. Not seriously.

He didn’t have a plan for it. He didn’t have a preset protocol for FRIDAY to call up. Not even close.

Because ready-for-everything-always Tony Stark — the creator of the Iron Legion; the maker of Veronica and the Hulkbuster; the guy who installed an instant kill mode in Peter’s suit; the guy who slept with his suit at his beck and call every night for months; the guy who has been thinking about Thanos since before he could put a name to the imminent threat he foresaw; Tony my-middle-name-should-be-paranoid (with good reason) Stark — never once considered that he’d be up against Steve Rogers. 

I think that’s heartbreaking. And it says a hell of a lot. 

[sephiroths-stuff]

Not to be a Tony apologist on main but like.... One. Bruce was in on the whole thing with Ultron the whole time, but everyone always blames Tony and no one ever talks about how Bruce Banner is as intelligent and is often considered MORE intelligent than Tony and never really did much to curb this and actively was like fuck yeah lets do this shit boissss. Two. He had good intentions when he created ultron and spent the rest of his character arc in MCU atoning for this mistake. THREE?!!!!!???!? Civil war was deadass about this. This is why he was willing to do exactly what he hated doing in all of his prior movies: submit to the government. He realized being free range AND superpowered put people in danger. Collateral damage is something you rarely see discussed in these movies. No one ever talks about what happens when Thor smashes through a building with his power. Did you know canonically thor can move 100+ tons and rivals people like captain fucking marvel and THE HULK in raw power??? He wanted him and his team of friends to be accountable and for people (like y'know, the Maximoffs????) To never become friendly fire related casualties of their heroism again. And he realized that having so much power MEANT responsibility. It MEANT accountability to someone higher. And he was WILLING to say "hey. We can make alterations LATER if we think something is janky. But let's agree now and make compromises later as we go." but Steve didn't want that. Just saying. And like he had every RIGHT to be angry people kept the ID of his parents' killer from him and had the GALL to defend said person. He DIDNT KNOW bucky was brainwashed OR Cap's best friend for all we know. It's not discussed. ZEMO MANIPULATED THAT WHOLE THING. Both of them were in the wrong, but people are so far up Cap's ass and want to be so anti Tony about this and want to make HIM out to be the villain in this area it's ridiculous. Tony became an orphan as a seventeen year old, and never got closure. And when he finally found out what happened? Right after he had JUST STARTED TRUSTING CAP AGAIN??? cap turns around and basically says 'oh by the way imma side with the man who killed your family in cold blood with no context at all and I'm going to try to kill you for trying to get your revenge which you personally have justifiable desire for'.

Like what?????

[musette22]

The fact that the discourse over Tony/Bucky/Steve gets brought back every once a year at least. And it’s always because someone posts the scene of the fight and it goes viral.

Listen, it’s a testament to all three actors because it is truly one of the best fight scenes in the MCU and such a great scene overall, so I understand why everyone loses their marbles but if only it could be appreciated without the discourse, my lord!

Aaahhh if only... It is a fantastic scene, and while I am obviously firmly on Steve and Bucky's side and always will be, I am also able to take a step back and consider where Tony was coming from and what drove him to do what he did. If only those Tony stans who are so intent on blaming Bucky for everything were able to do the same, there'd be a lot less exhausting discourse and the Marvel fandom would be a much more more pleasant place. But tbh, I think some people just thrive on being argumentative little shit-stirrers lol, so I doubt it's ever going to change. The best we can do is just ignore all that, and enjoy doing our own thing imo!

[fancyfrogg]

The accords are stoopid because they wouldn’t even exist if Tony decided to get a second opinion from someone who is not a mad scientist.

[sialater18]

Nobody:

My dash recommendations:

My initial thought: cool cool, seems legit this is fine.

another part of my brain not 5 seconds later: Cap was right the entire time, the man didn’t feel like giving up his human rights nor allowing his peers to be subjected to the same law (it’s not like he witnessed Japanese-Americans being marched off into concentration camps or anything) Tony’s only motivation was him getting guilt tripped by a mother talking about her son’s death he didn’t even know about minutes before not to mention he then tried to guilt-trip the rest of the team into signing too.I don’t think kidnapping a child & not fully informing him why is a morally good thing either  Dude also attempted murder on a man he knew was innocent but just didn’t care & kept on going repeatedly for several minutes- 

[portraitoftheoddity]

Hey there! So, I found the post you did about Steve's seeing Wanda confined into the compound as related to the internment of japanese in America during WWII. And even though I wholeheartedly disagree with you about *this* topic in particular, by following the threat I read that you too relate the all too oblivious way Ross was intending (due to his history, actions, etc) in using the Avengers as an american imperialist tool (in the same way they would probably be see by other countries having+

+no oversight, etc) and honestly? Thats SO NICE to hear from someone from Team Cap!!!!! Mostly because american imperialism is all too real for us south americans, muslins and africans and the everlasting consequences of american intervention crosses decades, even centuries in our local history. So I would like to ask you something: since are pretty much agreed throughout the fandom that the Avengers do need oversight and the Accords, althought with good intentions are not a finished product (Tony even says that they need to discuss some things, put some others, etc) how would the Avengers, and going even further to Steve as their leader, could reach a reasonable middle ground with those 117 countries (either afraid of american intervention, either simply not wiling to trust the Avengers) and the act of Aveng-ing? If the UN is not an appropriate handler (by Steve's rightful mistrust of all governments, agencies, etc, etc, etc) and that stand-alone threaders (like North Korea) are simply terrible too, how to find this common ground? I'm so sorry if I sound too brash or invasive, but I do like the whole discussion you conducted about Steve's side of Wanda confinement and for me, as a south american, is very very very nice to see a Team Cap fan who do known the long history of consequences of American intervention without oversight in the name of "freedom". So yeah, thanks for reading this, and sorry about anything, I just got super excited about your post!!! So yeah, I wish you all the best!

(Oh god, that post is old and if I recall, I disabled notifications on it because there was so much really awful xenophobic wank in the comments on it... I’m sorry if I’m repeating anything I said there, because it’s been a while and I can’t look it up anymore!)

As a little historical sidenote and context: I think a lot of people mistakenly assume that Captain America represents a glorification of America, when very often, he serves as a rebuke of it, and a reminder of what we ought to be -- not what we are. In the comics, in the aftermath of the Vietnam War, Steve went up against President Nixon himself, and then was so disgusted with the US government, he dropped the shield and moniker of Captain America altogether for a time, instead going by “Nomad: the man without a country” as a very pointed condemnation of American politics. Being Team Cap and a Captain America fan does not mean being ‘Team America-fuck-yeah’. And it definitely doesn’t mean being team Imperialism. My country has a long history of stomping through and fucking up everyone else’s business and I’m not proud of it or happy about it either, and really want us to do and be better. :| And I love Cap, because he really wants America to do better too. 

Moving on to your question! --

Realistically, our world and our laws would never allow superheroes to exist and operate. So a perfectly realistic assessment would not allow for the existence and liberty of any of the Avengers, let along a feasible iterations of the Sokovia Accords. Too much realism, and it all falls apart. 

But with the suspension of disbelief required to accept a comic book universe in place:

I think a reasonable middle ground would have been a challenge, but could have been found, if the Accords had actually been created and intended in good faith. If they hadn’t been deliberately rushed, and if the Avengers and enhanced people had actually been invited to participate and play a role in their drafting as a negotiation process instead of being given an ultimatum, something amenable to all parties might have been reached. As it was, the Accords were never so much about reigning in the Avengers as they were about having total control over them; the dehumanization of enhanced people and view of them as weapons -- and specifically weapons to be possessed -- were pretty indicative of their actual intent, and ultimately the reason Steve refused to sign in Germany, after being darn close to acceding. 

[It’s worth noting that even before that, Cap doesn’t object to oversight just because it’s oversight; Cap objects to the idea of being reduced to a weapon in the arsenal of a potentially corrupt power, and being denied his moral autonomy by being made a pawn in other people’s agendas. It’s not ‘freedom’ as in ‘freedom to do whatever I want’ that he advocates for, but rather, ‘freedom to make a decision about the right thing when it comes to fighting a battle, instead of just doing what my government decides is optimal.’ This is why Cap has always been a terrible soldier, but a good man.]

An alternative set of Accords actually designed to regulate Avenge-ing cooperatively could have:

Focused more on enforcing the idea that enhanced individuals have to operate within local laws, rather than stripping the rights of enhanced individuals and shoving their existence outside the law altogether. And they would have clarified the rights and humanity of enhanced individuals to protect them from exactly the kind of abuses Ross is responsible for. 

Defined the Avengers’ jurisdiction more clearly -- for example, clarifying that they’d have free reign under certain exigent circumstances, such as alien invasions or imminent global destruction, but would need to communicate and cooperate with either national governments or the UN when confronting, say, terrorist threats such as Brock Rumlow; they’d also need to retain the ability to refuse involvement in certain conflicts, so as not to be forced to fight as soldiers in an unjust war.

Clarified the Avengers’ position as either an American-affiliated group (requiring a certain amount of cooperation with the State department) or as an independent entity outside any nation. This would be complex, and require more than two days for everyone to talk over and work out the legal logistics regarding Avengers’ citizenship, participation in the Geneva Convention, etc. etc. 

Required greater transparency, communication, and certain checks and balances, where the Avengers are not under any one government’s (or small coalition of governments’ -- cough-permanently-seated-members-of-the-UN-security-council-cough --) complete control, but where they would still be answerable in certain ways regarding collateral damage, and wouldn’t be able to say, set up an occupation or overthrow a state. 

Made it easier for nations to make contact and request the help of the Avengers in a crisis; if they are going to be an international superhero group, that means being on hand to help with a situation in Brazil, or India, or Kenya -- not just New York. 

At least -- that’s where I’d have started! But I guess Captain America: Thorough And Sensible Geo-Political Negotiations wouldn’t have been as exciting a movie. :)

I’m glad that you got something positive from my posts, and appreciate your reaching out to me! 

[dirigibleplumbing]

someone pls write the outsider POV fic where Thor and the Asgardians make it back to Earth without encountering Thanos and Thor uses his Dumb Jock routine to manipulate Steve and Tony into reconciling (and then fucking etc.)

After everything that happened in Ragnarok, imagine Thor hearing about Steve and Tony’s fight and being like “Really?! Thats why you all stopped working together?! Just get over it! I did! I’m still friends with Loki and he’s betrayed me three times since breakfast! This petty mortal shit is nothing!”