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bigskydreaming · 5 years ago

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remypix said: So. How do we get you to become the main writer for Dick at D.C.?

LOL! I appreciate the flattery, but tbh, I don’t really see that ever happening. Its something I’ve thought about a LOT, to be honest, and went back and forth on for years before I ultimately arrived at the conclusions I did and figured out what it was that I really want and what matters the most to me as a writer.

So the following ramble is just my train of thought on all of that, in case its of interest to anyone else for whatever reason. LOL, no scraps of meta to be gleaned from this particular wordvomit-bomb, so don’t feel you’re missing out on anything by skipping past it, its pretty much just how I went about working through my own personal priorities in terms of career goals as a writer, before settling on what path I want to take ultimately, and what paths I’m not really interested in working towards.

But yeah....although I absolutely invested a LOT of time and dream real estate in envisioning my future writing for DC or Marvel someday, came up with entire Giant Size lineups of my own X-Men characters I couldn’t wait to make canon and actually wrote out honest to god To-Do lists for things I wanted to do with certain characters once I got my grimy little hands on them before anyone else had a chance to realize what a mistake that’d been to allow.....

Now, tbh, I don’t really see that as ever being likely....largely because its no longer a career goal I have any real interest in pursuing.

Not because I don’t aim to write professionally - I’ve made a living at it before, and expect I should be able to manage to again once I’m out the other side of my living situation of the past few years where my body only tolerates my attempts to get it to like, function, for a few hours at a time. Writing professionally is a hustler’s game, lol, its not enough to just do the writing, you have to be prepared and able to follow up on any opportunities that come your way quickly and that’s just not in the cards right now.

But I know how to do it, have done it before, I know how to network and while there’s no such thing as guarantees, there is such a thing as my single-mindedness and refusal to quit even when I probably should, so with that thrown in and all other factors considered, I do think I COULD potentially work my way up to at least a trial writing gig at either Marvel or DC someday, if I focused my efforts on that career direction specifically. Like its possible, I think my skills are at the requisite level, I’ve got the drive, etc, etc.....

But I just don’t see myself likely to set myself on that course ever, at least not any time soon. Not as something I’d need to commit to for a considerable period of time in order to break in and land the right opportunity, because the one thing I know myself well enough to know I lack completely and totally.....is my willingness to ‘play the game.’ The politics that go along with working in a corporate creative environment like Marvel or DC, particularly at the very bottom rungs of those corporate ladders, where I’d inevitably start out and need to kiss a lot of asses to have any chance of someday working my way far enough up the ladder to have any real kind of creative control over what I was writing.

*Shrugs*

Part of the problem is, as much as I love the characters DC has to play with, I do not love the structure that playground is formulated around. Like I’ve talked about a fair amount recently.....for years now, a huge creative problem with DC’s content is how disparate and isolated the various characters and franchises are kept from each other.......and while I know I COULD come up with stories that worked within those kinds of limiting parameters, I wouldn’t really WANT to, you know?

Like as much as I love the idea of writing Dick professionally, making canon stories for him.....in all likelihood, I wouldn’t even have the option of bringing in most of the other characters I’d want to draw upon as supporting elements in those stories. Dick is my favorite member of the Batfam, granted, but like I;ve said before, I do actually like all of them, when written well. I don’t WANT to write a Dick Grayson who’s kept isolated and solitary by editorial mandate, and at most allowed a guest appearance by one or two other Batfam members, as long as its kept brief and nothing significant enough to potentially impact their own storylines occurs in those appearances.

And you just can’t really write a family like that, at least not well. Not without being severely hampered, to such a degree that even if I did find workarounds to allow me some pagetime with the characters I needed/wanted to include, figuring out a way to make that work creatively within whatever limitations are put forth, like, that would no doubt be stressful and exhausting and the complete opposite of the entire POINT of creative endeavors in my opinion.

There’s not really a whole lot about that scenario that I’d enjoy, that would make the experience worth the time and effort it’d take to get to a point where its even a possibility......and chances are, it’d be more likely to sour me on the whole creative process of dreaming up and writing stories about this character I love so much, and potentially even leak into my ability to enjoy him, just because of how much personal negativity I now associated with it.

And then the other aspect of things is just.....there’s a degree of game-playing that’s expected and even required of working as a writer for major companies like Marvel or DC, where you’re one little cog in a very big machine that quite frankly, doesn’t give a damn about your opinions beyond thinking you should be really careful about not expressing any that potentially reflect badly on them or any of their content....not if you want to KEEP working for them for any length of time. Trust me, I’ve known writers and artists who’ve worked for both companies, even known some pretty well, and I wasn’t kidding about the ass-kissing that falls under the heading “job requirement” thanks to a lot of the egos that sit very high up on the creative ladders there, and in key, critical positions that mean you can’t afford to piss them off or seem overly critical of them or their own content or work.

And that’s just....not me. Not anymore, anyway. Don’t get me wrong, I’m more than capable of holding my tongue when necessary, and doing and saying the right things to advance in those kinds of environments. Like I said, I’ve done it before, and quite well, and for years. Hell, forget the writing for a second, just in my acting career alone....working as an actor is nothing BUT networking, and to get and keep any kind of jobs at all you have to be just as good at that side of things as you are at actual acting, if not better, and well, I worked pretty steadily. I know how to network, how to keep my mouth shut, how to DO it and just focus on my end goal and where all that networking is hopefully going to lead me to.....

I just don’t WANT to, anymore.

Because it really is exhausting. And more than a little soul-crushing. I absolutely LOVE acting, as in the actual craft, just like I love writing, and creating in all kinds of forms. But the hierarchies of bullshit and egos and completely unnecessary power plays that go hand in hand with a lot of the professional work in those fields, is just......really, really draining.

I’m not someone who likes keeping my mouth shut when I feel I have something to say.....having things to say is for me a huge, integral part of what draws me to story-telling in its various forms in the first place. And for me, that doesn’t begin and end just with what I write and act in myself, it also applies to the atmospheres and environments AROUND what I write and act in and where I write it and act in it. I love big, immersive shared universes like DC and Marvel because of their scope, their potential, the inter-connectivity of it all, and just how BIG it all is, and how big it allows stories to be, how big it allows various characters and their impact to be. But to actually be a PART of one of those myself, on any level, to be one of the pieces that make up its whole, my work a representation of it and thus all of it, to some degree, a representation of me....it wouldn’t be enough for me, to just be proud of what I create in that environment, I’d want to be able to also be proud of what my work is a part of, the other pieces surrounding that.

And the reality is just.....for all that I like about Marvel and DC, there’s a shit ton I don’t like, and most of that falls under the header of specific tropes and trends and MINDSETS. And I don’t need things to be perfect, or ideal, or exactly as I want them to be personally, I really truly don’t.....because nothing is perfect, and unlikely to ever be perfected within any person’s lifetime. I know that. I understand that. But a lack of perfection doesn’t mean that things can’t constantly be worked on, improved upon, made BETTER, at least heading in that DIRECTION.....and the thing is, I don’t bitch about the various things and trends and mindsets I dislike in my fandoms, in the media I consume and enjoy, like, just to do it. Just to be negative. For me, criticism exists in order to point out existing flaws or areas where something is lacking or could be improved upon.....so that at least the OPTION of improving upon those things even exists.

If you truly think there’s a flaw in something, something that makes a story or character or creative work less than it could be, holds it back, limits or detracts from its enjoyability at least in some small ways.....the one and only guarantee that exists, is that there’s not even a chance of those things being worked upon, tried a different way, being CONSIDERED by their creators or even just given more thought when creating along similar lines in the first place.....if like, nobody who has a problem with it as is ever like, MENTIONS having that problem with it, or seeing it as being lacking, or less than it could be, in these specific ways. To improve upon a thing, one must first be looking at what could stand to be improved upon, and SEEING it as something to potentially make better or do in a better way, instead of just....exactly the way it was already made.

Criticism is integral to making things better, stronger, MORE than what they already are, and I honestly think the truly great writers and artists of all kinds are the ones who are not just open to criticism, but who THRIVE on it. Who see it not as a judgment, but an opportunity. Who take whatever they can get from it and know how to leave behind the parts that have nothing useful or productive for them.

And Marvel and DC are just....not environments that I see as being all that open to hearing criticism, whether from outside or inside. In fact, I think that’s a huge part of the problem both have, something that’s stagnated them considerably......they’re never really improving upon any of the many areas they’re criticized for, because they refuse to hear that criticism, regard it as having any validity, and when you won’t even LOOK at something that needs improving upon as something that you acknowledge as needing improvement, FOCUS on improving, make that criticized flaw something you focus on rather than ignore, so you can LEARN from its mistakes rather than deny any mistakes exist at all....

Then the only way anything ever gets better at all, whether a little bit or a lot, is by pure blind chance, by just happening to not make the same mistakes next time out or because you focused on a new direction and were lucky enough to avoid stumbling into any particular pitfalls.

And that’s just....not appealing to me at all, even a little bit. Not something I care to be a part of, and I think its a waste of my time or energies, to work for a company that has a lot of problems that I see very specific areas that could be made better and not just for the sake of pointing out flaws, but because I also see various ways they could do things differently and potentially improve upon things......but working for a place who churns out content I think has a lot of flaws, or that I see and hear other people pointing out and commenting on those same flaws and others I didn’t see myself at first but saw after they were pointed out.....and yet knowing that company more than likely wouldn’t be receptive to hearing any mention of existing flaws, but would rather I just keep my mouth shut and just focus on my own story, no matter how I worded any criticism of the broader universe or directions or went about trying to raise said criticism or float it out there even as a hypothetical to consider......

Nah. No thanks. Not for me.

I know how to play these kinds of games because I was raised playing them and surrounded most of my early life by nothing but game-players, people who played games with everything from the truth, to peoples’ lives, to social issues and politics, all of it was the same and they played games with it all just because they COULD. And I was tired of it a loooooong time ago, and at this point in my life, especially looking back on the last several years that I can’t help but view as largely wasted, because I flat out didn’t even have the OPTION of doing any of the things I wanted to do, was so consumed by day to day survival to such a massive degree that there literally wasn’t even the possibility of trying to work towards the longterm or do anything to advance any of my various career paths or goals.....like, that’s over three years now, going on four, that have just come and gone with nothing to show for them in terms of things I really want for myself and my career, things I actually want to do, things I want to say, stories I want to tell, NEED to tell....and in light of that in particular, like, I honestly can’t stand the thought of wasting potentially years more of my life keeping my mouth shut about things I see problems with purely for the sake of towing the company line, when literally NOBODY benefits from allowing problems to exist unacknowledged and just fester and grow and become entrenched.....not even the company itself.

*Shrugs* It just seems wasteful to me, and I’m already chafing at the bit as is to get back to a level of health and energy and focus, not to mention financial security/stability enough that I can even START moving forward with my actual careers again, working on selling and putting out there the kind of stuff I really want to put out there, put my name to.....it honestly just makes me shudder, thinking about the likelihood of wasting years more of my life in service to priorities that aren’t mine and that I don’t agree with, for the sake of egos I have no stake in, just because the company in question is full of people who are perfectly content with everything they create as is, who don’t aspire to ever be any better than they already are, are okay with already having PEAKED......just so long as it means they don’t have to listen to anyone insinuate or outright state something that everyone already claims to already be aware of and thus shouldn’t actually be all that hard to hear: that perfection doesn’t exist, its unattainable for everyone, and thus the things they’ve created and are working on right now....aren’t....perfect. Meaning, by extension.....they could be made better. Improved upon. Grown or evolved or honed into something that reaches MORE people, resonates MORE strongly, touches MORE hearts, changes MORE minds.

Why don’t people, artists, want that for themselves? For their work, that they put so much of themselves into, expend so much time and effort to make? I’ll never understand. Can’t relate.

And the real kicker for me, the thing that ultimately helped me make up my mind on this awhile back, and more than that, make my PEACE with the possibility of never getting to work professionally on these characters who mean so much to me already, even though I think theoretically I’m capable of it, could potentially make that a reality....

Its that....I don’t HAVE to waste that time, catering to those other peoples’ priorities, just to tell the stories I want to tell. Aiming for that particular path, constraining myself in ways I’m not really comfortable for the sake of people I don’t really like and messages I don’t actually agree with.....its not actually anything I need, and doesn’t actually offer me anything.

I do love Dick Grayson and other existing characters, and want to write them the way I truly see them, and immerse them and surround them with other characters I like as well and think SHOULD be around them, supporting them, their narratives entwined with them......and I already can do that with fanfic. *Shrugs* I can write the stories those existing characters inspire in me, that I really want to tell, and not worry about the oversight or by-committee mandates or approval of uncreative DC higher-ups holding me back or limiting me or telling me I can only use certain characters and only to certain degrees or in certain ways. I can scratch that itch, I can put those out there without DC, and an audience exists for them, and always has and always will. Yeah, its a limited audience, compared to the platform DC has and the greater number of committed fans their Brand Name and existing properties help direct to every new writer who works for them or new story or new characters....no fanfic I write will ever reach the number of eyes Tom King’s or Scott Lobdell’s stories get in front of.....but honestly? I’d MUCH rather have a limited audience, than be limited in the stories I can tell.

And as for reaching wider audiences, getting my content, my stories out there in front of more eyes.....I have my original content for that, and I’m fully comfortable and confident in my ability to create characters and build immersive worlds that can be just as compelling as anything existing, whether that’s actually self-confidence or hubris, lol, who knows and who cares. Point is, I love DC’s characters but I don’t NEED them in order to have characters to play with, and I don’t need to try and break into a playground that honestly seems full of a ton of crap for every square foot I’m ACTUALLY interested in and there for.

I can make my own, and have, and will continue to do so. I’ve got my own superhero universe called The Ellis Eighteen that I’ve been building most of my life and might not have the history or scope of DC’s decades of existing content and hundreds of creators, but its still more than enough content to keep me busy for the rest of my life, even just that one universe of mine alone, and when my problem with that particular project is not having enough time or energy as is to write all the stories I already want to write there with just my own characters and universe and narratives........there’s absolutely no reason for me to settle elsewhere.

Because similar to what I was saying about why I’m okay with writing just fanfic for Dick, even if that puts a ceiling on how far I can ever go with that......its about personal priorities and everyone ultimately needing to figure out what matters most to them in terms of personal ambitions and longterm goals, and in a world where nobody can ever get everything they want all the time, exactly on their terms.....figuring out where you’re most willing to cut losses and what you most strongly feel you need to do your way.

My own original superhero universe could be the best thing anyone’s ever seen and leaps and bounds above anything DC or Marvel create, and it doesn’t matter - the mere limitations inherent in creating new characters and universes in an already saturated market, the struggle to compete with household names and give people a reason to direct even a second glance towards characters they’ve never heard of when there are four different titles out this week containing even just one of the characters they already know and love and have been reading for decades, the basic math of one individual creator’s content never in a million years ever going to have the real estate or reach that even the least popular and worst written of DC’s titles enjoys just because association with all their other established and proven content gives them an automatic boost that I’ll never be able to match or replicate on my own with original characters....all of that is real, and a factor and things I’ve considered and accepted.

Because at the end of the day, I decided the most important thing for me is bottom line, I like telling stories. But I like telling MY stories, the ones that only exist because I came up with them and thus will never exist for anyone else unless I write them the way they read to me in my head, the stories that CAN’T exist without me to tell them. And I like to tell my stories my way, in the sense that they may not be perfect and they might have areas of their own in which they’re flawed or lacking or could stand to be improved upon, but they at least don’t make the mistakes I see as mistakes in others’ work, and they prioritize the things that are important to me, and tell the messages I want to tell.

And with all that in mind, I would much rather devote myself towards walking a much longer, much harder road with absolutely no guarantees of ever gaining the kind of audience I might have if I worked for Marvel or DC......as long as it means that for all its drawbacks, every step I take on that road, I get to take while telling MY stories, MY way, the way I think they were meant to be told and without people I don’t respect or agree with backseat driving as I tell them, trying to give me directions as if they know how to get to where I want to go with my stories better than I do myself.

Compared to having a (comparatively) shorter even if no less difficult road to GET to a place where Marvel or DC hired me to write for them....at which case they’d shuttle me off in whatever direction they wanted to send me on a shortcut that admittedly gets me to a much wider audience in a much shorter time, and with far more guarantees of profit and thus a smoother ride.....but every step I take on THAT road, I ONLY ever get to tell the stories they allow me to tell, the ones that they like personally, and only after I’ve run them by them for approval first, and reshaped it into the form THEY want it to have and read the way they want it to sound, before ever reaching a single other person’s ears, with that vast audience only ever getting to read those versions of the stories I came up with....rather than the versions that read the way I originally wanted them to, that tell the stories I REALLY wanted to tell.

Again - its not about not being willing to compromise or settle or an insistence on things being the way you want them to be and no other way.

Its about the fact that everyone has to decide for themselves what they’re willing to compromise and what they aren’t - because it is OKAY to have things you’re not willing to budge on, you’re not rigid or unreasonable for having SOME things exist as dealbreakers for you, that make or break whether you head in a certain direction when a multitude of other directions are open and available to you.

And similarly, its up to the individual to figure out for themselves WHERE they’re willing to settle and in what ways....and where and in what ways they have to stand firm because settling there means sacrificing too much of what’s most important to them.

Like I said, for me, personally? The journey and the destination are the same thing. Whether I’m acting or writing, I view it as just different forms of story-telling. THAT’S the career I secretly dreamed of even as a child.....it was never that important what medium I told the stories through or logistics or superficial elements....the important part was the story, that was the point, that was the endgoal. *Shrugs* That’s all that’s really most important to me, priority uno at the end of the day: finding ways to go through life maximizing my ability, my freedom to spend my time telling stories, MY stories, the ones only I can tell because I’m the one that came up with them and they don’t exist outside my head, and telling them the way I truly want to tell them, the way they seem to me are MEANT to be told - because there’s only so far and only certain ways you can deviate from a story as you initially conceive it before it becomes actually a different story, that says something other than what you actually meant for it to say.

Big audiences and large royalty checks and movie deals and getting to use characters that others created but I fell in love with and see myself in all the same - all of that is great and has its place. But to me, the stories themselves are the point, they’re what any story-telling skills or talents I have seem FOR....

And if I’m going to bust my ass telling as many of the stories that pop into my head as I can, to the best of my ability, in hopes of them reaching the most people in ways I WANT them to reach people, resonate with them, speak to them, always trying to become better with each story I tell, each criticism I’m given, not out of some expectation I’ll ever actually craft a ‘perfect’ story or some sense of moral superiority, but rather just because stories IMO are meant to be enjoyed, and the better each story is, the more people are likely to enjoy it and what else is even the point of story-telling if you ask me personally...

Well. I’m just saying. If I’m gonna put in the best work I can either way, put in the time either way, and basically spend the majority of my effort, time and life telling stories one way or another.....

I’m sure as fuck only doing all of that so I can tell MY stories. Not someone else’s stories.

Because when writing for DC, even for the chance to write characters I’ve loved for most of my life....also means having to shove each story I want to tell through a woodchipper that shaves it down according to someone else’s priorities, expectations and rules for how and in what ways I’m allowed to use which characters and to what ends or what degree - or worse yet, a whole COMMITTEE of someone elses - when all of that is going to whittle away whatever story I WANTED to tell, to such an extent that by the time it actually ends up in front of readers, it stands as much chance of being the story one or more of them actually wanted out there as it does of still being or saying anything I actually wanted or intended.....

Then as much as I used to dream about writing the X-Men or Green Lantern or Nightwing as a kid.....now, I’m more than comfortable saying nah, hard pass. I’ll go my own way with my own characters in terms of professional content and output, even if it never gets me as far as working for Marvel or DC might. And it costs me absolutely nothing to do so. I lose nothing in making that choice.

Because for me, its the alternative that would actually feel like settling.

And if any writers out there prioritize differently or choose differently or see all this differently and writing Dick or Bruce or Jason or some other existing character is still the dream, and the goal they still focus on working towards....there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that, as long as its what works for you, and aligns to what YOU prioritize as most important for your career, art, goals and how you want to spend your time and effort as a writer.

#long post #but when are they not #honestly

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incoherentbabblings · 6 years ago

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As someone who loves the timsteph relationship i hate what new 52 robbed us of. Tim had previously been a dick to Steph by telling her to never be a hero again and Steph had been a dick to Tim by faking her death and lying to him but they still obviously cared about each other and i feel like they would have gotten back together if new 52 hadnt happened

Oh for sure!

I’ve always been on the fence with their interactions when Steph came back because on the one hand it’s just plain bad writing in that, Steph had no reason to follow through on Batman’s bizarre plan to make Tim a better Robin. She had nothing to prove to Bruce since she’d survived being tortured for god know’s how long and still came back to help people once she’d healed. She even asks Bruce if she’s welcome back and Bruce affirms yes ‘if you want it’. And then she notices straight away that Tim is acting and behaving far more coldly and assigns herself her the mission of basically bringing joy back into his life.

So even though ‘she was hiding in Africa and lied to everyone about it’ there were ways round it where you could address it but also remember that the poor girl had been through a lot and I wouldn’t blame her for wanting to disappear. The fact that she realised she wouldn’t ever be able to stop helping people and she needed to go back to Gotham I feel is really important to her character and something her and Tim (and the batfam in general) have in common, like a chronic need to protect people. It’s an important part of her character which people tend to ignore for wanting to spite her dad or Bruce or any of the people who doubted her.

Tim’s behaviour is also really cold and annoying to read but I think it’s just showing that he was shutting down emotionally and just that he was terrified for Steph. I wish they’d more of a big deal of why Tim was a bit shifty around Bruce after War Games, after all Bruce didn’t let Stephanie and Tim talk to each other while she was Robin, he hid that Stephanie had been kidnapped as long as he could and he stopped Tim from being with her when she was dying (EVEN THOUGH she was asking after him. She was terrified he hated her and yes Bruce reassures her that Tim adores her always has always will she should have had a moment with Tim, to hear it from him. She just deserved better. Every part of those arcs. She deserved better). Bruce massively bungled how much the two were reliant on each other but dead dad and dead best friend meant she got lost in the shuffle and was just one of many dead loved ones. Which is bad writing and bad editorial for a character that was fridged to make Bruce and Tim sad. But we all know that.

Moving to when she came back, their conversation on the rooftop after Battle for the Cowl has Tim inform Steph that a) he’s leaving Gotham b) he wants her to stop wearing the costume because c) he’s scared for her and of her actions. So it’s pretty ‘this is us done for real’. And yet they are drawn doing this

Which is part of why they had such an interesting dynamic because their body language is always having them stand close together with lots of hand holding and face smushing. Which you normally don’t do with an ex or someone you don’t trust. One of the first posts I made about these two was showing how often they are drawn with their hands reaching out to the other during their batgirl and red robin run. It’s near constant in the batgirl issue and crops up a few times in red robin too.

Also all throughout his RR solo Tim’s gutted that he feels like he can’t trust her anymore until he grows up a little and is like yeah I was wrong actually she’s doing so well and meanwhile she’s doing her own thing trying to cement down why she can’t ever stop doing what she does and it’s not to spite her dad anymore and it’s not so she can maybe on the off chance run across Tim anymore. At the same time, I think Miller wrote during their crossover that Tim and Steph’s relationship is one which he describes as “comfort and familiarity” hence why Steph stopped them getting back together at that moment. She was in a transition stage in her life and needed to focus on grounding herself before she could ‘fall back in’ with Tim, and I think Tim understood that. Also he was dating Tam so he shouldn’t have tried it in the first place but Tim is forever dating Ariana/Zo/Tam/Cassie and then smooching Steph and realising oh no that one that one I like that one more and usually Steph is like lol ok sure I like you too.

By the end of their respective runs you have Steph in a very good place whereas Tim’s work at building himself back from the ground up is shaken in that final issue with him essentially trying to murder his father’s murderer, and Bruce’s response to his actions makes Tim sort of… shut down again, after everything he put himself through to convince others that Bruce wasn’t dead. Tim’s growth came mostly from re-connecting with Dick and Cass, Stephanie, and the Titans.

So I guess if I’d had my way what would have been the best way for these two to find their way back to each other would have been post Bat Inc when Steph gets back from England and Tim has a proper sit down with Bruce and Dick and is like ‘the past two years have been really hard and I think I’m getting there but need a bit more help’ and like… put himself together first. I kinda like to read Steph and Tim’s final interactions during their crossover as a sort of ‘wait for me a bit longer okay?’ line of thought. Steph doesn’t say ‘I’m not doing this with you anymore’, she says ‘This isn’t good for me right now’ which just goes to show how emotionally intelligent she is, especially regarding herself by the mid point of her batgirl run. Tim needed to work on his own crap first before they could meet halfway.

Anyway I really recommend Sorry I Bruced You by quipquipquip which is how I headcanon them growing back together. Steph did a lot of hard work looking at why and how she was going to be a hero after being physically and emotionally wrecked by her torture. Tim had started to do so but stumbled at the end of Red Robin, and I think he needed to do a bit more work on himself. Ultimately it wasn’t Stephanie’s job to make him a lighter person. It would have been nice for them reuniting to be a ‘look how far we’ve come apart and yet I still at the end of the day want to sit and talk with you on your mum’s old couch because you’re warm, safe, gentle and alive’.

But HEY thanks reboot for dropping all that and wiping Steph from existence and breaking Tim away from what made him that gentle boy in the first place. Don’t get me wrong I actually really love the way Tynion wrote them together but to like properly love it you have to read it with all of their pre-War Games interactions in mind which is an understandable but still not great cut off point. I’ve always wanted Tim and Stephanie to be the one couple of the batfam who just kind of do their own thing and live in their own bubble and get on with their own lives whilst the rest of the batfam romantic relationships are more than welcome to be full blown melodrama any given day of the week. And I think DC sees it that way? The number of hints in other universes where Tim pops up in the future tend to imply Steph is a presence too (Batman Beyond, Nightwing New Order, Tom King’s Batman Annual… the exception is the original Batman of Tomorrow Arcs, where Steph was dead and LOOK HOW THAT TURNED OUT FOR EVERYONE and in even in Tynion’s run where she isn’t dead in the future BatTim is like…haunted by her disapproval, she really is his anchor when given the chance to be) and this has gone on long enough look what you’ve done anon(!!!)

#anonymous #ask and i'll babble #timsteph #tim drake #stephanie brown #timsteph meta

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aion-rsa · 5 years ago

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How Batman Evolved During Tom King's Run

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Bruce Wayne's adoptive father is the key to Tom King's conclusion to his run on Batman.

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This Batman article contains spoilers.

Tom King did the impossible. In a comics industry founded on the bedrock principle that only the appearance of growth should ever be shown, he’s told a massive, three-year, 85-issue story that has Bruce Wayne actually develop as a character.

With Alfred’s death earlier in the final story arc, "City of Bane," many would have expected Bruce to shun his supporting cast and dedicate himself to revenge, leaving Gotham littered with shattered criminals as he pushed his grief through his fists and his enemies’ faces. But that’s not what happened.

We got a chance to talk with King about character growth, how his epic tale developed, and what’s next for Batman, Catwoman, and King himself in the DCU.

Den of Geek: You talk about Vision, Omega Men, and Sheriff of Babylon being a thematic trilogy, right?

Tom King: Yeah.

Can we look at Mister Miracle, Heroes in Crisis, and Batman the same way?

Oh yeah, 100% yeah. That's what I think of it. Yeah. I'm glad someone noticed.

It's about heroes managing trauma, right?

It is. I call it the Trauma Trilogy. That's just too easy, maybe. I feel like the first story about my war experience and [the main characters of each book] were all someone naively going into a situation and finding it much more complicated than they thought. And then these three were all about, I’ve said this publicly a billion times, about this nervous first-season-of-the-Sopranos breakdown I had in 2016 when I first started on Batman, and sort of how I recovered from that. And I sort of wrote it three different ways. Yeah, it's like some fancy dish, you know. The Trauma Trilogy.

Read More: How Batman Will Change in 2020

So the breakdown in 2016 happened after you had already started on Batman. How far is what ended up on the page drifted from what you initially conceived it to be?

I mean it's pretty close. There's some stuff that didn't quite pan out. Batman isn’t like a series like Mister Miracle or our upcoming Strange Adventures that we're doing. You have to write Batman with some degree of compromise because it's a much bigger platform and overlaps a lot of other books. You have a lot more eyes on it in terms of editorial control. And so yeah, it wasn't entirely a straight line, but considering it was 85 issues of DC's best-selling comic, I think it was a lot straighter than I thought it would be in terms of going from one spot to another.

It was always supposed to be about a love story and that was there from day one. I remember talking about that with my first editor, Mark Doyle...being like, “What is this book about?” And me literally just searching and searching until I found an old clip of the Batman ‘66 TV show. It was just like, “Oh man, I love this." The Catwoman, Batman dynamic.

And it hadn't been in the books in a long time. Not since, like, Judd Winnick, New 52 stuff. So that part about it, the fact that it was just one big love story. That was the same and Bane was supposed to be the main bad guy. But the stuff with Flashpoint, Batman evolved as we went along. I'd say that's the thing that's evolved the most.

We talked that second arc, I think, about Bane, Catwoman, and Batman being three sides of the same shitty coin. But now with Thomas included in there, it feels like it's kind of four points on a graph, labeling each axis. You've got like Batman who had privilege but lost everything at a young age. You have Thomas on the other end who had everything for most of his life and then lost everything. You've got Catwoman, who was born into nothing and kind of hangs on to everything but keeps it at arms length. And you've got Bane, who kind of grabs whatever he can and crushes it to death. As Thomas evolved into this, does that sound like what you were thinking at all?

Yeah, I do think they all represent this idea of who's top of the mountain in their own way. I guess you could say who does Gotham belong to? Bane sees Gotham as a prize that he has to win. Thomas sees Gotham as a burden. For Catwoman, Gotham is just who she is and she's sort of queen of that city. And then for Batman, it's ... I mean that's what the whole question is. What does he mean to Gotham?

With Alfred's death, was it kind of a backdoor way of you taking a look at Bruce's origins? You know, using the death of a father figure to kind of shock him out of being Batman the way that he was shocked into being Batman?

Yeah, but it was also a way to show what the difference is between Bruce losing his parents when he was young and connected to them, and Bruce losing Alfred having been raised by Alfred. To me that was a tribute to sort of Alfred's parentage of Bruce for all these years and him guiding him through that trauma. Because you expect Batman in that moment to bury himself in anger and go insane and do all the things that drove him to be Batman in the first place. But instead of that, he hears Alfred's voice and he composes himself. To me it's sort of about the maturing of the character and maturing of it through the love of Alfred. I know I said this in the book, there are no good deaths. There's a nobility to death if you've treated your children right.

Read More: Batman and Catwoman Face Thomas Wayne in Final Tom King Issue

Well, I would quibble with that only because I think you could have killed Batman at any point in the last 85 issues and whatever was happening would have been a hell of a way to go. Right? Like he has a heart attack on a ferris wheel with Superman. That's a pretty okay way to do it.

Wait I did kill Batman! I killed him in annual number two.

Oh yeah! Yeah.

I gave him my ideal death. He dies instead as an old man surrounded by his family.

And that's the good death.

That's a good one. That's as best as you can do with no other choices.

After 85, it feels like that's kind of the direction, right? Batman for so long has been that traumatized little boy, to the point where it's almost a parody, and many of your predecessors have done something interesting with that. But it always feels like the traumatized little boy has been the dominant perception of him, at least in my adult life. Is this your way of kind of trying to push him through it?

The story of Batman is unending conflict. I'm sure whoever comes after me will embrace the Batman of their own and I bless him for doing it. I know James [Tynion IV, the writer taking over Batman with #86]’s stuff is going to be, from what I've seen, amazing. Batman's not a story that I have the power to end. I just kind of come in and take the reins for a while and then pass it onto someone else as brilliant as James and Tony [Daniel, the artist on the first arc].

But I can sort of, I don't know, tell my story. I don’t know, maybe I'm too old to write Batman. Frank was 29 when he wrote The Dark Knight Returns. I'm 41. But it seems like as you get older and you actually see your parents pass, you see your loved ones pass, you realize that everyone has to go through that trauma. Right? You sort of realize that it can become part of you and something you're proud of as well. The grief never leaves you. It never leaves Batman. It's a wonderful metaphor. But also there's a certain joy to that grief because it sort of unites you with your lost ones.

So hopefully, as you go on, you sort of mature into that. I hate to say that the greatest hero America's ever created, which is Batman, never got a chance to mature into it like the rest of us hopefully get to do. Yeah, I mean that's what that's about. He says, when I was a child, I did childish things and now it's time to grow up a little bit.

Read More: Why Tom King Is Leaving Batman

So the action sequences have been phenomenal through the whole thing. There have been some stellar fight sequences, especially Jorge [Fornes'] last ten issues. Every time he comes in it's incredible.

He’s ridiculous.

They've been phenomenal. When I think back on the run, what I think is going to jump out at me are going to be the quiet moments. The double date, 12 Angry Batmen, Bruce and Selina grabbing a beer and watching football at a bar. What do you think was about those quiet moments that let you make them sing?

I mean, the first thing is the art. All three of those things you mentioned, you've got Lee Weeks...there's not a lot of people who can draw a dynamic room with just 12 people talking. Clay Mann doing the double date. Just him elevating himself and becoming the best artist in comics while I was watching. And then Mikel [Janin]. I've been with Mikel for five years now since Grayson. He did the first Batman I did and he’s doing the last.

It's really hard. I mean, as dumb as it sounds, it's probably easier to draw a dynamic fight scene than a dynamic quiet scene. So those guys are doing the heavy lifting.

As far as the other stuff goes. You know, it's ... DC Fontana died yesterday, right? The Star Trek author, and she's famous for saying, “Star Trek is not about objects. It's about characters.” Like, that's her thing. If you're writing an episode of Star Trek, don't make it about the thing. Make it about the people's relationships. So I think that that's what those moments are about is we've had a lot of conflicts. Fantastic, amazing conflicts about things. But I try to make my conflicts about the characters. Just trying to follow what she told me to do. What she said. Not that I ever met her but I remember what she said to do.

So looking back, is there an issue that stands out in your mind as something that you just absolutely nailed? Like, it's the Batman/Elmer Fudd issue, right?

No, I hate it. [laughs] I love that issue, but there's two typos in it. It still drives me crazy. I'll never manage to get them to fix those. When I first got the comp finished, I threw in the trash I was so pissed. "Oh, I ruined this one. Oh well. I'll try again next time." And then I won awards for it, it was ridiculous.

All three of the annuals I really like. I like the dog story that David Finch and I did in the first annual, which was suggested by my daughter when she was like five.

And I liked the second annual, which has sort of the first dates and the beginning of the end of the Catwoman/Batman relationship. That annual's the jumping off point for the whole Batman/Catwoman series. So that's how much I like it, I'm trying to copy it.

And I like the fourth annual I did with Jorge, which was just sort of like a chance for me to do a thesis statement on what Batman is. And there was seven days of Batman in seven different genres and then it continued sort of forever. I like those three.

Read More: Why Tom King's Batman #86-106 Would Have Been About

Similarly, is there an issue that you wish you could get another crack at?

Oh man, there's a ton of issues I wish I could ... I mean, I look at the dialogue and I’m like, "Oh, I could have done that better."

It took me a while to learn how to work with Joelle Jones, who's one of the most talented artists out there right now. And I think, I feel like I did a Wonder Woman issue with her and I feel like I wasted two of them first of all, because the story I wrote turned out to be very similar to a story that Joe Kelly had done. I hadn't read the story but I was very...I would have changed it if I had known. I sort of understood how to write for [Joelle] by Batman #44, which I think is really nice, but I think it's 39 and 40, the two Joelle Jones issues, I wish I could have another shot at doing well.

I really liked those.

TK: They're beautiful! They're drawn beautifully, but I don't know, we could have done something...it was really fine, but I feel like it could have transcended. I missed it.

I guess. The Justice League flirting between the two of them in the cartoon is high on my list of preferred pairings. So like the way that you played with that made me happy. Is there a character you feel particular ownership of now? Like if somebody comes in and changes Kite Man, are you going to throw the issue across the room and scream, "Fuck no, that's not how this is supposed to be done."

No, I think that's kind of silly. It's kind of like when you sign up for this gig, that's part of the agreement and coming into comics is realizing that this is a medium that extends to other people and no one has benefited more from that than me, who's twisted the work of Jack Kirby and Marv Wolfman and Bob Kane and Bill Finger for my own benefits. I feel like denying that to others would be hypocritical.

Gotham Girl's named after my daughter Claire. Claire Clover is her name. So I do like her. Like I have in my daughter's room a David Finch piece or a page that he did and a page that Clay Mann did they gave to me for her. So I like her because she's named after my daughter.

Wow. That's got to be pretty sweet.

I know. I try to tell her brag, brag to your friends! But does she brag?

Read More: Why Batman Still Matters

She'll get there. As soon as she shows up in a movie, everyone's going to be like, "Oh, you're so cool." Would you do it again? Marvel comes to you tomorrow and says, “We want a hundred issues of Spider-Man. Do whatever the hell you want.” Do you jump at or do you run screaming?

I don't remember anyone ever saying, do whatever you want with Batman.

Well, fair.

It never happened. Would I do it again? I mean I have no regrets about doing it. On many levels, I feel like I'm artistically satisfied with what happened. I feel like I made my career and made my life and I had fun.

But it's that second thing you said, the control of it. As I move forward, I kind of want to do, I don't know, like, I want to do super ambitious stuff and it's hard to do super ambitious stuff in that environment.

I feel like I got as close as I could get with [Batman]. I had a brilliant editor in Jamie Rich, huge support from Dan DiDio, but I don't know if I'll ever get that much again. Going forward, we'll see. But I just want to do something, I don't know, big and ambitious and literary and I don't know if that's possible anymore. If it is, I'll go.

You did the Sheriff and Omega Men and Vision Trilogy. You did the Heroes in Crisis Trilogy, or the Trauma Trilogy. Where are we going next?

Yeah, something new. I'm trying to move on. I'm trying to move on from fat middle aged men looking out windows, thinking about their lives. I think it'll be like another trilogy of books. It will be Strange Adventures, [Batman/Catwoman], and another book that hasn't been announced yet.

And all of this will be these 12-issue miniseries, like these little novels and they'll all be focused on a new, bigger theme. The way things develop when you're writing, you can write it one way where you're like, "I'm going to write about this theme," then you go write it. But when I do that, it just turns out shitty.

The best way I think to do it is just to write straight through so your unconscious mind brings it to the surface while you fight doing the same thing over and over again. So I'm not 100 percent sure these things are still forming as they form, but it's going to be a lot about all the shit that's in the news every single day.

As much as Mister Miracle was about sort of the trauma of looking around our current environment, thinking, "My God, this can't be real. I feel like I'm trapped here," Strange Adventures will be about how do we fight back this pernicious stuff that seems to surround us. And I think that's what Batman/Catwoman will sort of be about too.

Read More: The Actors Who Have Played Batman

So hopeful.

Hopeful is the wrong word because some of them are dead dark books. I don't feel hopeful right now. But I feel like, I don't know, it feels like we're in the middle of the war and you don't feel hopeful in the middle of the war, but you still feel like you'd have to fight. You know?

Yeah.

It's more about that feeling, not the feeling that, "Oh God, we're going to win." But the feeling of, "Oh God, we can't lose or else."

And Strange Adventures, I've read the first one and it's ... I couldn't love it more. It's 28 pages. Doc [Shaner] and Mitch [Gerads] are doing crazy new stuff you haven't seen in comics before, which I think is cool in terms of mixing the two arts together. The two, I don't know, styles or whatever.

I couldn't be more proud of it. I remember Garth Ennis famously saying that with The Boys, you out-Preacher Preacher. So we're going to try to out-Mister Miracle Mister Miracle, to steal from Garth.

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Feature Jim Dandy

Dec 18, 2019

DC Entertainment

Tom King

Batman

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sometimesrosy · 6 years ago

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The 100 s5 rewatch: Pandora’s Box

This is my longest one this season. 2500 words or so. I end up doing a bit of editorializing and i noticed a few things in regards to plot and themes and such.

I also do a bit of NOT shipping murven, so beware murven fans, I do express why I don’t ship them romantically but I see why you do. And I’m a little pissy at Raven. I love her, but I’m not going to pretend that she doesn’t have real flaws because of it. I am REALLY waiting for her character development next season. I think this season they gave the focus to Murphy, so next season will be Raven.

@alightinadarkland @irisouy @noodlesthehedgehog @emmyisgrey @ezraewrites @starboybellamy @jeanie205 @kickthatassgirl @levivlio @kizo2703 @captainwilldameron

Let’s begin with Kane in the gladiator pit. Octavia as icy as can be. Their code of strength, unity and honor. Now they’ll honor death before the fight. All of me for all of us. Kane is glaring at Octavia while the others fight, no he picks up a shield and is knocked to the ground. One dude is impaled. The other is wailing on him and all he has is the shield but the other dude kills the chick and now Kane has to fight the big guy. While Jackson asks where Abby is and Abby’s pleading, saying he doesn’t deserve to die and it was her.

Kane is sliced by his gladiator and grabs an axe. Wow. Just eviscerates him.And wails on him. And the audience turns on him. I’m still not sure why, if the only rule is to survive, why it matters if Blodreina thinks he has earned his freedom or if the crowd is happy with it. And now she says he fights again tomorrow and the crowd cheers. I don’t get it.

Cut to Bellamy, threats and negotiations. Shaw confirms his story. As long as they can make a deal. McCreary of course wants to kill him now. But Bellamy wants them to open the bunker. Split the valley, coexist. McCreary chuckles.

Clarke! She turns to see Bellamy and doesn’t look like she believes it’s him. She can’t even sit up. He helps her. WOW that music changes. Hopeful, romantic, dreamy. Clarke you saved us all. And now you’re home. And they hug.

Okay. This scene is so short. It is literally 1 minute before they pull back to the hall, and Clarke remembers where she is. But it’s so close. So soft. And so intimate. There’s not much dialogue, either. Mostly touching and looking and soft gasps. Then it pulls back to this symmetrical hall shot, all arrowing down on the two of them in the doorway. Actually on her. She’s the center. And he doesn’t really pull back from her.

Bellamy made a deal with Diyoza to open the bunker and it’s like the light appears. There’s Raven, breaking into the files to find out about Diyoza, the war hero, who became a terrorist. Of note. She bombed DC. AKA TonDC. She was terrorizing the ancestors of Trikru. I never noticed. Metro suicide bombings. Like IN the tunnels that we’ve seen them take shelter in. Wow. And now they’re worried about facing the most wanted criminal of her time. It’s so funny. Murphy will literally take her down with a thrown rock. But they don’t know that yet. They just think she’s the biggest badass. They forgot who they are.

Bellamy calls. Murphy says “we’re not bad people” because Diyoza is listening, and Bellamy is like, Raven if Diyoza does ANYTHING outside of the agreement, kill all her people. BUT someone wants to say hello.

Raven’s face when she hears Clarke’s voice is heartbroken, “I don’t believe it.”. Murphy’’s is happy, as if he knew it all along, ‘and they call me the cockroach.” Raven thanks her for saving their lives. And Clarke says she misses them both. That is their last contact until near the end. :(

McCreary calls Shaw “the Girl Scout.” McCreary doesn’t trust Diyoza so she explains that she has plans to kill the hostage taker and his girlfriend and take the doctor. McCreary is kinda dumb. Diyoza is not. Shaw isn’t either. He heard that plan.

Wonkru. Trigedasleng singer got a spot in the bunker. Octavia tells Kane that he lost the crowd when he showed weakness. I still don’t understand, because that has nothing to do with keeping them together. No. It’s the drama. The gladiator thing. The show. Grounders always liked the show.

She says she’s giving him a second chance. Give up the drug thief, because she knows he didn’t do it, but she’s not there for a philosophy lesson. He doesn’t really care. “You lost your way. We all have. I’ve been quiet too long. You think the arena delivers justice.

“I know it does.”

“Your mother was floated for having a second child for having you. I was a party to that and so much more. We have a chance to do so much better here and we’re throwing it away. Please Octavia. Strength without mercy is nothing. It’s nothing. Bu you can end it. You can save us. It’s not too late.”

“Tell me who stole the medicine Kane…. So be it.”

Remember in season 3 when Kane gave up on Bellamy as his student because he disappointed him? Because he was doing it for Octavia not because it was right? But the lessons TOOK with Bellamy. He’s the one with mercy AND strength. Octavia refused the lessons, and she’s gone so much farther down into the darkness than Bellamy ever did in season 3. With Bellamy it was only a few weeks, with Octavia it’s been 6 years of getting darker and darker.

Indra won’t talk him out of it, but she brings him to Abby and tries to get her to do it. Because he’s refusing to fight. Abby confesses. She’s an addict. She doesn’t want him to die because of what she did. And Indra is like, he was right to have you locked up. “The only way to save you both is to have him win. Talk to him.” Indra knew about Abby I think. Or she suspected.

“Abby what have we done?”

“What we had to do to survive.”

“That’s what we say to justify the horror we inflict upon each other.”

That’s super important. That is THE POINT of this whole show. Or one of them. The lesson. That’s why Bellamy’s famous words, “who we are and what we do to survive are not the same thing” (or whatever it was) are not supposed to be taken as WISDOM. They’re supposed to be taken as the starting point for how they ALL pardon themselves for their crimes, in the name of survival. What they’ll do for their people. Because Bellamy does not believe that anymore. He believes you have to make the right choices now. BE the good guy.

“I lost myself.” Kane says. I think Kane is the personified representation of humanity, in a way similar to Octavia. But Kane is the father-humanity and Octavia is the child-humanity. Kane is where they came from and Octavia is the result. And he wants to refuse to fight, to stop it, but the momentum of the actions set in place before he was born are too much for him. He can’t stop it.

He also tries to make sure Abby doesn’t confess after he’s gone because then his sacrifice is worth nothing. A lot of them have this concept. That their sacrifices have to have a pay off. Bellamy had that with Clarke, in praimfaya. Kane here with Abby. Later we’ll see it with Octavia who thinks they DESERVE Eden because they sacrificed themselves, or SHE sacrificed herself to be blodreina, and the gladiator pits and the dark year. How does it go from, I have to do this to make her sacrifice worth it, to I DESERVE this because I sacrificed? And Abby says she’ll give up the pills, but come on, not really.

Eligius. Soccer ball. We’ll see that later. Murphy is trying to lighten things up joking about their possible genocide and Raven is not amused. She does not like being in the position that Clarke and Bellamy were once in. She’s discovered the Eligius files. But we don’t know what Eligius 3 did. ENCRYPTED and even she can’t get into it. Oh but Shaw is hacking. Murphy wants to pull the plug. These are the rules. If they break the rules, they’re supposed to pull the plug. Murphy wants to tell Bellamy. Murphy is following the rules. And Raven stops him. She says she’s got this. “I got this.”

Murphy’s not so sure. And he’s not talking about the technical ability or genius. “Look Raven I understand not wanting to kill 300 people in their sleep but—“ (oh interesting. Isn’t that what people say happened with Hakeldama? It’s not, not really, they had watches and defenses and were armed warriors and they woke up, but that’s interesting.)

“I said I can do this. Ok? So why don’t you just go play with your ball and I’ll do the rest like always.” And that HURT him. It wasn’t cute or justified or funny. He was right.

Y’all really need to stop acting like Raven is some sweet cupcake. This is the girl who was ok with torture. Okay with blowing grounders up. Figures out what people’s biggest insecurities are and uses them to HURT them and get them to do what she wants. She’s done it to Clarke, to Bellamy and now to Murphy. We already know he feels useless. Worthless. We’ve had this discussion. SHE’S had the discussion with him. When she calls him cockroach, it’s not in admiration. It’s not pride in his survivor’s nature. It’s because she’s calling him trash. Sorry, murven fans. I get their chemistry, and I can see it happening down the line maybe if they develop more. But I can’t ship this. I don’t think being mean is love. I would never let someone treat me like that. And Murphy doesn’t have enough self esteem to stand up for himself, so he’s just going to turn it inwards and believe her. And her self esteem? It’s overcompensation for her own insecurity. She DID NOT get them back to earth. She did NOT do her job. And that hurts her but she won’t admit it.

Sorry, I love Raven, I do, and I want to see her grow as a person, and I think she will, but I’m not going to say she’s a cupcake or has never done anything wrong, and I feel like we act like that too much. With whoever our favorites are.

Well onto Wonkru. Octavia sentencing Kane to fight. Weird freaky death cult. He’s not going to fight either and the crowd is angry. The guy tries to force him to fight and Kane— “I will not fight this man. Somehow we allowed justice to become vengeance and vengeance to become sport and I allowed that that darkness to rise, but my complicity ends today.”

“You are wonkru or you are the enemy of wonkru. Choose.” Octavia

“I already have.” He says. Octavia grabs a sword and kicks him to the ground

“Come on Kane, where are your survival instincts”

“Saving my people is about more than keeping them alive. It’s not too late.”

“For you it is.”

AND THERE GOES THE CEILING.

AND HERE COMES THE LIGHT.

Octavia wants to fight the light. Light? No.

ITS BELLAMY!!!!!!

First person he sees is Octavia coming out of the darkness jumping into his arm. “I knew you’d come.” Down comes Clarke and Octavia…. Greets her as a comrade, not a friend. The lovely music becomes ominous as Clarke and Bellamy look around at the crowd.

Eligius come down. “Who are they?”

“We’re here to rescue you.”

Bellamy says they have an understanding and Clarke wants to see abby. Bellamy introduces Diyoza and Octavia. “Love the warpaint, by the way.” Diyoza says she’ll take them out two at a time and they don’t move until Octavia tells them to. Bellamy is worried. Diyoza is too.

Bellamy thinks it’s 1200 people, and Octavia says 814.

Shaw is still locked out. “Whoever this girl is, she’s good.” She sends him a Raven. Flipping the bird. “Real cute.”

Murphy’s hanging out with the cryosleepers. He makes a joke “what are you doing here? Coming to hang out with all the people you might have to kill?” She doesn’t like that and gets upset. And Murphy smacks himself in the head. Raven apologizes for being a bitch before. You were babe. Glad you noticed. She was just afraid she won’t be able to pull the plug.

And Murphy tells her thats ‘why he’s gonna do it. He thought he was staying behind to impress Emori, but now that he thinks about it…”I mean why do you always have to be the one to sacrifice.” I get why people would ship this. But I don’t like their relationship yet. As friends yes, there’s room for the spikiness. As a romance, no. Not my thing.

Indra brings Clarke to Abby. Indra gives Abby a chance to get Marcus away from Octavia. “I’ll get him to the ground, after that, it’s up to you.”

Octavia rises into the air and Gaia says weird cult things. “From the ashes we will rise.” The weird cult repeats. Now they’re chanting it. That’s some weird shit and Bellamy, Diyoza and McCreary all agree.

Octavia sees the destruction of Polis. And the Eligius ship. Rubble everywhere.

Bellamy brings Miller up out of the hole, and they hug. Miller thanks him, Bellamy gives him a big smile and finds the gun. Tells Octavia no weapons and she says she never made that deal.

“Blodreina, the red queen. Tell me about the fighting pit. How did that happen? Because it looks like someone read Ovid too much.”

Kane hugs Clarke. Indra gives him the key and tells him to wait for night. Second Abby and Clarke hug and there’s Diyoza watching her doctor.

“Snug as criminally insane bugs in hermetically sealed rugs.” Diyoza pulls a Clarke and has Shaw open the docking bay doors.

Raven and Murphy playing soccer. They’re cute. Oh that’s over. Alarms. Raven says pull the plug. Murphy pulls a counter Clarke. And he opens the cry pods so that they would survive. Murphy wins.

Diyoza calls Raven Shaw’s friend, and a coward. Shaw says, “a live coward.”

Polis. Night. McCreepy is watching Clarke.

Clarke is trying to take Kane and Abby away, Abby says they can’t talk to Octavia and Clarke says that’s tomorrow’s problem. Diyoza booms the fountain, Bellamy comes in and is like “hey now…” But Raven and Murphy are taken. The deal is off.

Octavia figures out that Diyoza wants Abby. Abby’s like— Yes. Take me. Only with Kane, though.

“I see where your daughter gets it.”

Clarke is like WTH mom? Diyoza takes the valley. She’s got Raven and Murphy as insurance.

One idiot who wanted to fight Diyoza shoots at Octavia but her cultists jump in front of her. Now they’re at war. Diyoza says they have to end it now and kill all the people. Shaw is like. There are 1500 people left on earth. We need people. And then he puts in an invalid launch code. Blames Raven for it. We knew it was you. And McCreepy shoots the guy who shot the rocket. Also the one who wanted to stage a coup against diyoza, coincidentally.

Now Octavia blames BELLAMY for what Diyoza’s people. Seriously child. What is WRONG with you?

#the 100 #liveblog #the 100 liveblog #rewatch #the 100 rewatch #season 5 #pandora's box

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bigskydreaming · 5 years ago

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1) Hi! It’s a strange question, I know, but I’m curious: how much do you take what happens behind the scenes into account in your analysis of a character or a storyline? To make an example, the push and pull of Dick’s filial status in the narrative is a consistent and frustrating thread in the comics, but has probably roots in the fact that Dick’s arrangement made sense in the 40s in a way that it didn’t anymore by the 80s.

Its a good question, without a good answer. Best I can say is it varies and I kinda take things on a case by case basis. Sometimes behind the scenes stuff doesn’t really change much about what’s on the page one way or another, and sometimes its extremely relevant.

For instance, your example of Dick’s status as ward vs adopted...I think its very much something where real world context and factors have a ton to do with it. I’d definitely agree that Dick as Bruce’s ward made total sense in the writers’ eyes and didn’t need changing or addressing until the 80s, which culturally is when adoption and blended families became a lot more....it feels weird to say mainstream in regards to that, but it kinda fits because the concept as a whole became more popularized and normalized and likely to have a presence in media in the 80s in ways it never really had before.

Personally, I don’t think there’s really any issue with Dick not being adopted before then, and think it has more to do with the zeitgeist of those times rather than in character choices about Bruce not wanting to adopt Dick for whatever reason. So my own approach to this particular matter is for me, it only became an issue when an additional variable was added...Jason and his adoption....as especially once Dick himself was written asking Bruce why he never adopted him...even though the most relevant answer up until that point was likely just that it had never been a culturally significant issue for their characters to have until now......once writers DID introduce Dick’s own view/question on the matter into the canon, THAT’S when I personally view it was being more of an issue that Bruce waited so long after THAT point before actually adopting Dick.

So for my own take...whether in meta and discussions of canon or my own fic stuff....I don’t really put much emphasis or even focus any real attention on Bruce not adopting Dick before that point in canon stories OR the concurrent position in the timeline....by that I mean, the approximate age I think Dick was when he first asked Bruce about that, eighteen or nineteen. I think there are certainly stories that can be written that involve Bruce adopting Dick or raising the matter for discussion earlier in Dick’s life like when he was fourteen or fifteen....but I don’t personally feel much of an urge to write things with a negative slant towards Bruce not adopting Dick earlier than that because I AM aware that in terms of canon, it wasn’t really an option before that point due to the writers’ own cultural norms informing their character choices.

But once the writing introduced that angle and element...it became fair game in my opinion to question why Bruce would wait so long before acting on Dick’s pretty clearly expressed desire there...and yeah, I think its fair to have a bit of a judgmental eye towards Bruce character wise for still waiting so long when it could have changed so much for the better between them and spared Dick at least a few years of angsting and uncertainty about it.

All that said, when talking about fanfic deviations specifically, I think its entirely fair to consider character choices within the context of the fanfic as much as the original canon. So if a fic is already making significant departures from the canon events of Dick’s early years in order to write the author’s own take on Dick and Bruce’s early relationship....then in THAT context, specifically, regardless of what canon had to say about it and the behind the scenes reasons for that, its still valid IMO for characters or readers to wonder why in light of how much our cultural norms have shifted by now, why a fic about that time but written in the context of the modern day....like, IMO there Bruce doesn’t really have the same justification canon has for him not touching on Dick’s status as ward vs son earlier in Dick’s life.

If that makes sense?

Similarly in terms of recent years and canon, I think a TON of flip flopping and uncertainty in regards to how the Batboys’ relationships to Bruce are described or referenced is because DC or the various writers and editors just don’t like committing to the idea of Bruce Wayne: father of five (or six, depending on how one views Duke’s positioning in the family).

Like, I’ve long had the sense that a lot of the powers that be over at DC just flat out don’t LIKE Dick, Jason, Tim and Cassandra’s legal adopted status and wish none of them had ever happened as they for whatever reason think it takes something away from Bruce’s character or premise and they’d rather Damian be the sole actual son and heir. Hence having not only Damian emphasize the blood son thing but also having the other kids like, when talking to Damian refer to Bruce as YOUR father (which is a little thing that bugs the SHIT out of me, lmao)....as well as being as vague and ambivalent as possible when having Dick, Jason, Tim and Cass reference Bruce to others or address him and put as little focus on them using an actual label for their relationships to him as possible. And its not just New 52 I mean here, I think this was an issue still well before Flashpoint.

I’m almost certain if some of DC’s editors and writers had their way, those other adoptions would never have happened and their official status would just be wards/foster kids/proteges. Which is annoying not just because I’m a fan of the family being a FAMILY, like, purely on a personal fannish level....but also just in terms of narrative....I think its fucking stupid to try and play fast and loose with those relationships when everyone knows damn well that each of those kids being Bruce’s KIDS has nevertheless very much been a thing that happened and exists in most fans’ minds. Like, that’s not a genie you can ever put back in the bottle. There’s no realistic chance of getting readers to just en masse forget that any of those characters were ever officially and legally Bruce’s children at some point. Like, you did that, or at least writers before you did that, just accept it and USE IT instead of pointlessly muddying the waters to obscure relationships most of us view as father/child regardless of what canon has to say about it now.

So for example, in THAT case, I fully believe the confusion about the kids’ various legal status and their view of Bruce and his view of them...like, I honestly believe the ambiguity of that at various times in canon is deliberate. And also, dumb. Thus I don’t feel any need to take canon’s current vagueness into account because I feel there the behind the scenes motivations are extremely relevant...and thus I’m completely content to just ignore them and keep them all as Bruce’s children in legality and heart, via whatever story context makes the most sense for my purposes.

Another example of when I personally feel behind the scenes motivations are hugely relevant and should be kept in perspective...is Jason’s death. Because I’ve read a ton of stories and meta that sometimes victim blames Jason and treats it like his fault he died, sometimes makes it Dick’s fault for not being closer with him and someone Jason feasibly could have turned to instead of going to Ethiopia on his own, and sometimes Bruce’s fault for the division his judgment after the Garzonas case had forged between him and Jason and with that basically driving Jason to go to Ethiopia in the first place.

And like, I personally hate each and every one of those takes because I think its never going to lead anywhere good, upholding Jason himself or either of his immediate family members as being in any way at FAULT for his death and everything he went through after it....but also I don’t like emphasizing narrative or character blame on any or multiple of those characters because IMO it disregards the MOST crucial factor in Jason’s death: editorial mandate.

Like, they held a freaking phone poll for whether he should live or die. Jason’s fate was decided by call-in votes, NOT by ANY character’s actual choices or actions or even lack thereof. There was no way any of those characters could have been written making different choices that avoided Jason dying, because they were deliberately written making choices that smoothed the way to Jason dying because it was going to happen not because it was where the STORY inevitably led, or any of their choices inevitably led there....but because the editors WANTED it led there and to end up where it ultimately ended up.

IMO its pointless to point fingers at character choices when we KNOW for a FACT, like oftentimes we have to guess at writer motivations in order to have an opinion on that variable at all, but this is one of the rare occasions where we inarguably KNOW....it was going to happen one way or another because editorial decreed it had to happen. So I think its pretty pointless even in terms of meta analysis of the story and character motivations to ultimately point a finger at any of the character choices and assign blame for Jason’s death...when there was literally no chance of them ever being written making choices that allowed Jason to avoid dying.

Especially when you consider that literally the only narrative change that even needed to be made to avoid Jason dying, regardless of everything that led up to that point...is simply not having him die in the explosion. Come up with literally any explanation for a last minute save, escape or rescue. Like so many comics have managed so many other times.

Like, there are no rules with fanfic so obviously you can write fic of Jason’s death in any way, and make it the end result of any character choices you want and make it some character’s fault or not according to your own preferences and narrative choices....but in terms of canon events and choices, I think that’s one of the very rare stories where its both impossible and pointless to examine it on any level, without taking the behind the scenes context into consideration as well.

So like I said, it really just varies from story to story, depending on how much or how little writer or editor motivation, decisions or bias were likely to be a factor in any given story. *Shrugs* Thus for me, I don’t really see any way to go about that other than taking each story on a case by case basis.

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