#but trying to learn tumblr demographics

[m-a-salter]

You all are killing me with your endless "reblog for sample size." Your curiosity is to be commended. As is your urge to do science. I, too, love science.

BUT. You cannot manufacture statistical significance by increasing the sample size if the sampling method is biased in unknown ways, as a convenience sample of an unknown population is bound to be. If your question is, "What do my mutuals and their mutuals think about X?", then a Tumblr poll can perhaps give you an approximate sense. But if your question is "What does the entire population of Tumblr think about X?", no amount of reblogging of that poll is going to get you meaningful, interpretable information, unless you can get all 135 million of us to answer.

[theriverbeyond]

how do we know in the books that john is indigenous? can you say more about how his indigeneity is important to his story?

hello! so there is a word of god post on race (doesn't mention John but mentions that Gideon is "mixed Maori"), BUT I frankly don't think word of god statements are worth any weight without actual in-text support (see: the "dumbledore is gay" situation). SO!

Specific evidence that John Gaius is Maori, as revealed in Nona the Ninth:

When he is listing his education, John mentions having gone to Dilworth School (John 20:8). Dilworth is an all boys boarding school in Auckland and accepts students based on financial need instead of academic or sporting achievements. Demographics appear to be about 70% low income Maori boys, indicating that it is highly likely that John is Maori

John reports that P- said he looked like a "Maori-TV pink panther" (John 15:23) when his eyes turned gold. Maori TV is a TV station that is focused primarily on Maori culture & language revitalization, with presumably all or mostly Maori hosts, and tbh I don't see why P- would say this unless John was himself Maori

John uses a te reo Māori phrase ("kia kaha, kia māia") (John 5:20) when he is saying goodbye to the corpses in the cryo lab before the power is shut off. Though it is possible he said this as a non-Maori kiwi, but in combination with the previous two points of evidence I think this all very strongly points to him being Maori

He also renames his daughter Kiriona Gaia, "Kiriona" being just literally the name "Gideon" in te reo Māori

TLT is not a series that hands you anything on a silver platter but to ME this is all pretty solid proof

Why is this relevant to The Locked Tomb?

In Nona the Ninth, we learn that before he completed apotheosis and ate the solar system, John was basically trying to save the earth from capitalism-caused climate change. Climate justice and the rights of indigenous people over their own land are deeply tied together, in the same way that climate catastrophe and capitalism/ imperialism/ colonialism are linked. disclaimer that this is NOT my area of study and others have definitely said it better; this is just the basic gist as I understand it, but on quick search I found some sources here and here if you want to do some reading.

TLT is not a series that hands you anything on a silver platter, but i don't think it is a stretch to see John as an indigenous man trying to save the earth and getting ignored and shut down at every turn by primarily western colonial powers (PanEuro, the USA) who declare him a terrorist and then as a reader thematically connecting that to the experience of indigenous climate activists IRL

there are absolutely TLT meta posts that have discussed this before me; tumblr search is nonfunctional and I have been looking for an hour and a half and cannot find anything specific even though i KNOW i reblogged multiple posts about this in the first few weeks following NTN's release. sad & I am sorry

I think that by the time the books take place, John is 10k years removed from the cultural context he grew up in, with the Nine Houses having become a genocidal colonial power in their own right (with more parallels to be made between John's forever war for the resources of literal life energy and like, oil wars), but I also think that John Gaius is a fictional character who can represent and symbolize multiple different things in service of telling a story. (not to mention the potential thematic parallels being made to how oppressed people sometimes are pressed into replicating the power dynamics of their oppressors and continuing the cycle--now that is a tumblr post i KNOW i read last year and definitely cannot find right now, once again sad & I am sorry)

How Radical Was John Gaius, Really is a forum thread that was locked by the moderators after 234534645674564 pages of heated debate

[jiraisupportgroup]

˗ˋˏ ♡ Jirai Kei Survey Results ♡ ˎˊ˗

(NOTE!! I re-opened it because I saw some people saying they were sad they didn’t respond!! It’s open again! You can take it here)

Hi hi!!! First of all, I'm so sorry that this took me like an entire month to make, and second of all thank you to everyone who participated in the survey I posted a while ago! It got 89 total responses which is awesome!! So many more than I was expecting, you guys are awesome ˚ʚ♡ɞ˚

I've got a spreadsheet of all the answers given in October 2024 here if you want to go view them for yourself ^-^ (I have redacted pronouns and location for privacy sake)

I also went through and read everyone's answers and pulled some of the main points / focuses people had to make into little graphics for simplification and comparison's sake (This is a huge part of why it took so long because I didn't want to misrepresent anyone's points so I went person by person and considered all of their answers and overall vibe before pulling the main points just to make sure I wasn't accidentally changing or misunderstanding their points).

Please keep in mind: 89 people is NOT a large enough sample size to extrapolate this to the entirety of the Jirai Kei community - this is really just an exploration of the people who answered the survey - it does not represent the feelings of the community as a whole. This survey is derived from the western community as the survey is in English and was posted in primarily English-speaking areas.

Also just as a note I messed up when making the selections for the ages and put 18-21 and then 21-25 so people of the age of 21 could have picked either - this isn't ideal but since I messed it up in the original choice options I'm keeping it listed as that because I think changing 21-25 to 22-25 would be disingenuous.

I'm going to go question by question and kind of break it down if you're interested! I'm also going to try and remain mostly neutral and not really put my personal opinions in here. My main goal is to kind of break down what was said in the survey.

Demographics:

It's a pretty good mix of people. Also, hi!!! So many of you are from so far away!!!! That was really exciting to see. To be honest, it was super cool to see how this community encompasses people from all over the world!!! (Also, as a note here, there was one person who answered the survey who was over 40. I included their answers in the 26-30 range just for simplicity sake.)

I also did not make a graphic for the pronouns: primarily she / her, followed by they / them or any / all, followed by he / him or he / they pronouns just in case you were curious. I also took the pronouns out of the original answers document since I know quite a few people use neo-pronouns which are quite unique and I didn't want anyone to see those and connect that person to their answers, I wanted it to remain as anonymous as possible. I redacted the locations for the same reason.

I did not make a graphic for the languages either but those are included in the original answers spreadsheet that I have linked above. Many people speak Japanese, Russian, German, Spanish, and French. Those were the main answers besides English.

I don't have too much to say about the social medias to be honest. Discord, Youtube, and Twitch are likely under-represented in this since they were write-ins and not part of the general selection.

How did you first hear about Jirai Kei?

I don't have a graphic for this one either. It looks like most people learned about it because they already had an interest in j-fashion. A decent number of people mentioned Needy Streamer Overload. Lots of people came from Pinterest, Instagram, TikTok, and Tumblr. Many people also said they were into Menhera and came from there.

How would you describe Jirai Kei to someone who hasn't heard of it before?

Again, no graphic for this one - highly reccommend to go read some of the answers on the linked sheet above. It was pretty split between people talking about the aesthetics & fashion vs people talking about the mental health community. A lot of people mentioned that if they were talking to someone they didn't know very well or who didn't have any knowledge of j-fashion they would say it's a style and move on, while if they were talking to a friend or someone who did know a little more about j-fashion they would talk more about the mental health aspects and history of the subculture.

A few quotes (I'm trying to get a good mixture of opinions in here, please note these are mostly smaller parts of larger answers - this goes for all the quotes added in this post): ♡ "Usually it's easier for me to just send the wikipedia link to people though honestly" ♡ "a subculture of mostly young women with mental illness who share certain interests in jfashion etc..." ♡ "...a lot of ppl often tell me it just sounds like the jp version of emo." ♡ "A subculture for mentally ill people who can’t, won’t, or don’t want to recover" ♡ "depending on my knowledge on their opinions on mental health, i'd either go with a basic explanation of the fashion if they dont seem like the type to be sympathetic of ppl with mental health issues, but if they seem like the sympathetic type, i'd go more into detail of the origins and lifestyle associated with the subculture." ♡ "Being cute despite your mental illness! Also a bit of consumerism and idol worship..." ♡ "It's mainly a stereotype" ♡ "I would recommend watching cybr.grls video on jirai kei " ♡ "It’s an alternative japanese fashion style with frilly, lacey, and dark garments! The main colors it will be are very muted pinks, blacks, grays, whites, or even reds or purples (albeit rare)" ♡ "Jirai Kei is the term used to describe the fashion style related to Jirais / Landmines , which was a derogatory term used to describe mentally ill girls who had an “explosive” personality , wearing cute clothing to distract / hide men from their personality. It usually consists of frills , ribbons and lace , blouses and skirts , with a colour palette of black and muted colour varients like pink and blue , and white. "

To your understanding where does Jirai Kei come from? What's it's history?

Again, no graphic for this one (T-T these are just too complex for me to comfortably break down into bite-size pieces). Most people talked about the Toyoko kids, a bit less talked about host / hostess clubs, and quite a few vague nods to Kabukicho in general. About a fifth of the people just talked about overall mental health in Japan. Interesting mixture of answers - different people seem to latch on to different parts of the origins, which is likely based on what they relate with the most. I was surprised that only a few people mentioned the "Jirai Kei" makeup trend of 2019/2020 - I honestly thought that would be talked about a little bit more ngl. Interesting read for sure.

A few quotes: ♡ "jirai kei became seen as clothes worn by dangerous or unstable women, hence the trend " ♡ "the history between jirai kei && the toyoko kids sometimes get mixed together because of their resemblances , but it's important to note the two are different . jirai kei define an instable person who will explode at some point like a bomb , but you don't know when ( landmine ) . initially , it was mostly used to refer to girls who threaten their boyfriend to kill him or themselves if the boy left them . since jirais are disordered or mentally ill , they often engage in unhealthy behaviours . the toyoko kids on the other hand are teens who ran away from home to live in the streets instead . most of them suffered from abuse && causally have disorders or illnesses . this is where the two subcultures came together to form one : the jirai kei we know now..." ♡ " The clothing style that is most typically seen on social media stems from the fact that these clothes where cute but cheap to come by. " ♡ "Jirai kei as a term originated from misogynistic men calling mentally ill women “explosive.” The style came from poor (unfortunately, often sex workers) youth in Japan. It how we’ve became popularized and somewhat mainstream there after a while." ♡ "then in 2020 people started dressing up in stereotypical "toyoko kid/jirai woman style" to make fun of them before brands saw how popular this trend became and decided to start selling clothes based off this idea. the original style is known as dark girly kei which uses elements from both dark girly and girly kei the latter being a style that was popular with 2010s gyaru and evolved to incorporate french girly and dark girly motifs making it what it is today. other styles such as subcul and suna kei are also extremely popular with jirai to the point of being synonymous with the style." ♡ "...Thus, the fashion style was associate with "Jirai Onna" and became "Jirai Kei". The fashion style extended beyond Kabukicho and many girls and women wear the style in Japan due to the kawaii look and the popularity of the style within many fashion brands. Another demographic that has popularised Jirai Kei is idol fangirls who wore girly kei and jirai kei fashion. The style was also given the term "ryousangata" meaning "mass produced" an insult basically calling the girls who wear the style "basic"."

What do you think differentiates Jirai Kei from other subcultures?

Okay since this is the first type of this graphic we're seeing let me explain what you're looking at. I took key points or words and quantified how many people mentioned it as a larger part of their explanation. There were a LOT of other things mentioned these were just the ones that came up repeatedly.

Many people were confused by this question and said there are too many differences to even describe, which is completely fair. There were two main types of answers to this question. The first is that fashion is what makes it different because it's a fashion-based subculture or if not fashion-based, fashion is a big part of it. The other is that it's a community based around mental health primarily unlike other subcultures which are based on fashion or music. A lot of people who mentioned this went on to say that the thing that differentiates it from Menhera specifically (because menhera is also based in mental and physical health) was the idea that Menhera is very recovery, resource, and awareness focused, while Jirai Kei isn't focused on those things at all and is more so just people looking for a sense of community.

A few quotes: ‪♡ "menhera is art and advocacy focused, jirai is community focused. menhera also is more recovery focused often, whereas jirai places no emphasis on that at all" ‪♡ "Dawg idk how to tell you this… there’s too many examples and they’re all so different" ♡ "For starters, its background story, the clothing doesn't look the same either.... Jirai culture is not really focused on getting better mentally, much on the contrary... being mentally ill is praised, spending an insane amount of money on clothes you don't exactly need is praised...." ‪♡ "I’ve seen jp jirais say that jirai kei is whatever a jirai girl chooses to wear, it can literally be anything. However, at the moment it visually is a combination of menhera and dark girly kei. Because it’s new though, it’s already having subsets form and change that." ♡ "i think jirai is unique in its rejection of the “just get better” culture a lot of places have. Most people think of inability or unwillingness to improve a moral failing. " ‪♡ "Jirai Kei has a distinct history and recognisable style" ♡ "menhera is about finding a community that wishes to accept you and want to encourage you to get better jirai kei is not about wanting to get better thats a very important distinction" ♡ " - idk how to explain??? It’s like asking what differenciates gyaru and goth lol" ♡ "the subcul is definitely viewed in an extremely negative way compared to other subculs, even menhera. I also think that other subculs like Emo, Anime, and Idol culture revolve a lot around the fashion aspect. While jirai is best known for the Dark Girly fashion, i think that jirai in itself, as mentioned before, is more about the lifestyle that we life, our mental health, and the struggles we go through either on purpose or not" ‪♡ "for many i'd say the fashion is what differenciates them. while they can overlap with common traits under the other subcultures, it's still quite different." ♡ "i do believe that the associated fashions (again, not just dark girly, but also tenshi kaiwai, subcul, etc.) are necessary to set a landmine apart from these cultures. the fashions is a huge part of the subculture and sets it apart from these other mental-health based subcultures. that is why i personally believe that a landmine must at least wear the associated fashions OCCASIONALLY to be considered part of the subculture."

What kind of Jirai Kei content do you engage with the most?

This one again, no graphic. Top answer was outfit / coord posts (82%), second most common was vent posts (67.4%), third was dark humour (58.2%)

Are you interested in the fashions associated with Jirai Kei? Which ones?

Again, not too much to say overall about this.

One thing to note is that some of these answers could technically be lumped in with other ones, like "all of them" could be counted towards Dark Girly Kei, Girly Kei, Tenshi Kaiwai, etc but I kept it separate. Same with "Jirai IS the fashion" which could be lumped into Dark Girly Kei but again I kept it separate unless they mentioned it in their answer.

The one that isn't like that is "No Interest" because if someone was of the mind that the fashion is called Jirai Kei and said they weren't interested in the other fashions they're in the "Jirai IS the fashion" count, while the people in the "No Interest" count were of the idea that the name of the fashion is not Jirai Kei and is rather Dark Girly Kei so they have their own count.

What role do you think the asssociated fashions play in Jirai Kei? Do you need to wear them to be considered "Jirai" or part of the community?

Again, this has been vastly simplified but I tried really hard not to misunderstand or misrepresent anyone's points. The categories names are a bit strange so let me explain what I mean by them:

‪♡ "No, it's a lifestyle" - This person believes that you do not have to wear the associated fashions to be part of the Jirai Kei community because it is first and foremost a subculture based around mental health and finding people who relate to you that you can talk to about these things. They also tend to believe "Jirai Kei" is the not proper name for the fashion, and that to be part of the Jirai Kei community you must be either mentally ill or at least open and understanding about mental illness. ‪♡ "No, it's both a lifestyle and a fashion" - This person believes that you do not have to wear the associated fashions to be part of the Jirai Kei community. They tend to believe that Jirai Kei is both a lifestyle and a fashion, and you can participate in either the overarching mental health community based around Jirai Kei or the fashion side of things and be accepted either way. This kind of answer tended to imply that both the people looking for a mental health-related safe space and people who just like the fashion are welcome. ‪♡ "Yes, it's both a lifestyle and a fashion" - This person believes you do have to wear the associated fashions to be part of the Jirai Kei community. They tend to believe that Jirai Kei is the proper title for both the mental health subculture and the overarching fashion and you have to participate in both to be considered part of the Jirai Kei community. ‪♡ "Yes, it's a fashion" - This person believes Jirai Kei is a fashion style, if you wear it, you are welcome in the Jirai Kei community.

A few quotes: ‪♡ "the fashion has almost taken over the community, and overshadows its origins." ‪♡ "I don‘t think the Fashion is the central aspect, but it brings people in. It’s historically speaking a part of Jirai Kei, but not the most inportant thing. You can be Jirai and not dress like it." ‪♡ "Yes to be considered Jirai one should wear the clothing of the subculture they are trying to claim. I don’t think you have to branch out into any jirai substyles though if it’s not your vibe." ‪♡ "No if you're a lifestyle jirai, yes if you're a fashion jirai. If you're a lifestyle jirai I think just wanting to be jirai is enough" ‪♡ "i definitely do think that people who dont wear the fashion can be considered jirai, as thats how the word originally got its meaning, though nowadays its definitely more recognized as a fashion style." ‪♡ "It's just a part of the stereotype because a lot of us happen to wear it not because we need to." ‪♡ "it’s such an enormous part of the subculture that leaving out the fashion aspect makes your “landmineness” indistinguishable from a thousand other subcultures." ‪♡ "i think the fashion gave way to helping people who are mentally unwell or don’t feel good find and outlet to feel better, wether it be makeup, or the clothes for me it makes me feel pretty and distracts from the fact i’m depressed. i think just wearing “jirai” as a fashion or style doesn’t necessarily mean you are unwell though, you can participate and be okay in the head lmao, and ofc be in the community. i think the problem lies within the title of jirai. " ‪♡ "i don't think you necessarily NEED to wear them to be jirai, but i think that an interest in them is pretty important because the fashion and aesthetics are closely intertwined with the subculture " ‪♡ "I actually think the biggest thing to a Jirai look is Jirai makeup. I think as long as you have that, then you are Jirai enough. " ‪♡ "While I don't think you have to wear the fashion to be jirai, the fashion does play a big part in the subculture and people need to acknowledge that. " ‪♡ "to an extent, yes you do, but it's more important just to have an interest in them. nobody needs to wear them 24/7 and if you can't afford clothes then it is what it is, but you can't really call yourself jirai if you have no interest in one of the main aspects of the subculture (the aesthetics)" ‪♡ "nah, as long as u wear alternative fashion and know ur shit and participate in the culture ur fine."

Can non-Japanese people be "Jirai"? Why or why not?

Most people said yes (which is kind of to be expected since this is in English and most of the people who answered are not Japanese so I will note this is biased), but a lot of people brought up different points.

Some of the "yes" pool are people who believe Jirai Kei is just a fashion and brought that up as their point. Some of the "yes" pool are people who are more into the mental health side of things and talked about how people in different countries still experience mental struggles and that's something everyone can relate to in their own way.

The "Yes but it's different" pool is mostly comprised of people talking about the mental health aspects of the community and mentioning that although foreigners can be part of the Jirai Kei community, it is important to understand that the things that many Japanese "Jirai"s go through are things that we will not experience due to the differences in our mental health care resources / infrastructure and the infrastructure of the Japanese sex-work industry. Essentially, we can go through really similar things but the overall cultures make it quite different.

Some Quotes: ‪♡ "yes, especially when a trend originally comes from sex work in which non-japanese people living in japan are overrepresented." ‪♡ "Yes, I’ve seen from the pov’s of Japanese landmines and they are open to it because we’re all supposed to be there for each other because nobody else is" ♡ ‪"Yeah, I think they can be, BUT they shouldn't go around acting like they are the template for what a landmine is, or demanding changes to the culture, just because they wear the fashion and/or are mentally ill. It's roots lie in Japan, so the "originals" are still Japanese Jirais" ‪♡ "of course they can ! never did the term refer to exclusively japanese people . even when the initial term " merged " with the toyoko kids , it didn't make it an exclusively japanese term . as long as you fit the " criterias " , you can be a jirai if you choose to label yourself as one ! ♡" ‪♡ "Nowadays I'd like to consider it a fashion style and fashion styles travel all around the world as long as u don't claim to be japanese cause you are wearing jirai you are good. You should also respect and learn the story of the style before u decide to wear it since it's more troubling than other styles." ‪♡ "Very unlikely. There are many factors that would eliminate most people to be "true Jirai kei" ie. experiencing homelessness as well as involved with sex work and host club addiction. Emily from the suburbs who lives with her family and has depression could not be Jirai kei but can partake in the cool fashion. Calling themselves Jirai would not be up to par with the real meaning of it." ‪♡ "Yes. The Japanese jirais don’t seem to disagree so I’m not sure why I would." ‪♡ "yes of course, its important to say that non japanese people often have different issues as japanese people but that doesnt make them less valid meaning they can still use the style as representation of their own issues" ‪♡ "yes and no. if you disregard the fashion and makeup or frame jirai kei as a "menhera" community when its not then you dont really deserve to call yourself a jirai onna. acknowledging that your generally live a better life because of your privilege of being outside of japan. though i can understand calling yourself a jirai onna if you suffer extremely similar problems to that of toyoko kids especially if you suffer from BPD." ‪♡ "Ofc it's clothes" ‪♡ "Yes, of course! Jirai kei is for anyone and I don't see a reason why people can't participate/ want to gatekeep it. I just think it's important to learn about the history and not be a jerk to those who participate in only the lifestyle or only the fashion part."

What does "Jirai Kei" mean to you personally? Why do you associate with the subculture?

I chose to make a word map for this to kind of point towards some of the most repeated words throughout the answers. A lot of these answers are very sad to read (just a heads up before you start going through them), but that is kind of to be expected. Most people mention mental illness and personal struggles with things like EDs, SH, alcoholism, other unhealthy coping mechanisms, or relationship issues. The thing that really stood out to me was that a majority of the people who are of the idea that "Jirai Kei" is the name of the fashion still brought up how the community feels comforting to them because they struggle with mental illnesses and relationship issues. Very few people just said "I like the clothes", most people also mentioned mental struggles in their answers.

I think that's an important thing to note. It really highlights the fact that you never know what someone is going through behind the screen. You only know what they choose to post, and many people choose to post cute outfit photos and things of that nature, but they still can be hurting behind all of that.

A few quotes: ‪♡ "it’s comforting to identify as one and feel like there’s a subculture out there of people who feel similarly to me. everyone connects with the label in different ways" "I like being able to relate with people and have somewhere to post my vents and get things off my chest without judgment" ‪♡ " i was paranoid for not being mentally ill enough for the community, i was absolutely terrified of making jirais mad at me and being rejected. to this day i am terrified of the day when they decide i did not suffer enough to be a jirai. but such a thought is twisted in and of itself, right?" ‪♡ " I love dressing up as fashion is a major coping mechanism for me and I feel delighted at being able to express myself through clothes: it is an art form. Dressing in the subculture's fashions has allowed me to express myself and come to terms with my experiences and who they made me today." ‪♡ "Funny enough my mom calls me a jirai girl (in a derogatory way since she has a typical older japanese person mindset) but i don't mind saying that i am one without shame. especially because i don't believe that my mental illness is something that should be stigmatized and judged. calling myself jirai feels liberating in a way..." ‪♡ "I feel like because I cannot wear the style (not enough money + sizing is difficult) I cannot call myself Jirai kei but I notice others who don’t wear the style call themselves Jirai, which is comforting. I’ve always struggled with mental health for most of my life and I’ve always loved Jfashion subcultures, so obviously I was drawn to Jirai." ‪♡ " i do think people who just wear dark girly kei should be careful when using the term jirai kei if they aren't in the subculture though. i see people say they're jirai and then mock the mentally ill people like?? you aren't jirai you WEAR jirai kei 💀💀 there is a difference!!" ‪♡ "i am also transgender - my girlhood is very important and nostalgic to me but it is also inseparable from dysphoria and sickness, and i think dark girly/jirai fashion helps me to express that." ‪♡ "I found I appreciated the relaxed attitude towards mental health struggles, nightlife activities and a visual indicator that someone might be a little “dangerous” or someone that likes to party." ‪♡ "when I first started, "I want to become cute!" was a big theme I was seeing. I can be cute even though I'm ugly and have bad mental health and it's ok. the style of the clothes is the biggest appeal." ‪♡ "I honeslty really only associate myself with the fashion aspect of it, since it’s something I really love. So instead of calling myself “Jirai”, I like to say I “dress in Jirai” instead." ‪♡ "To me, it's just the clothes. I don't call myself Jirai by itself because it's insulting"

What would you say the pre-requisites to being part of the Jirai Kei community are?

40% of people mentioned mental illness or struggles as a main part of the subculture. There were different approaches to the way that they mentioned it though. Some people were saying "you should be mentally ill since 'Jirai' is an insult used against mentally ill people and the explosive nature is part of the subculture" and others were saying "If you are mentally healthy you should stay away from Jirai Kei to protect yourself because you're going to see triggering things".

Many people said you don't have to be mentally ill to be part of the community, but you should understand that you are going to be interacting with people who are mentally ill and not bully people for venting. Some people said you have to be mentally ill and not wanting or willing to recover to be part of the community (although this was only 3% of people).

On the other hand, about 16% of people said that the only thing you need to do to be part of the community is wear the clothing.

People who mentioned both mental illness and clothing in their answers were divided into 4 different categories: ‪♡ "Mental illness" - they mention the fashion but state is it not a requirement for the community ‪♡ "Wear the fashion" - they may or may not mention mental illness, but do not think it is a requirement for the community ‪♡ "Wear the clothes AND be mentally ill" - they mention both and think both are required for the community ‪♡ "Wear the clothes OR be mentally ill" - they mention both and think you can either participate in the fashion side of things or the mental health side of things, but you don't have to participate in both.

Many people also mentioned doing the makeup as a big part of it. Some of the people who mentioned makeup as a requirement said that even if you don't wear the clothes as long as you do the makeup you're good.

A lot of people also said if you like the clothes or the community or whatever you're all good, so long as you don't bully anyone. Their general vibe was that anyone is welcome to hang out so long as they aren't mean to others. (Many people counted in the "don't be mean to 'fashion' onlys are also counted in the "don't be mean to 'lifestyle' onlys category as well. And as a note a lot of them didn't use those terms specifically I just used them to shorten "people who only wear the clothing" and "people who only participate in the mental health community" because those are looooooooong titles)

There isn't an overarching general consensus. It is very split and debated. (Which we all know). A lot of people were very passionate about their definitions though, which is to be expected. Mental health is a very touchy and personal topic for a lot of people, so people on both sides have really passionate emotions about it.

A few quotes: ‪♡ "i think people who are mentally healthy should stay away from the community; both so they don’t judge those whose thoughts they don’t understand but also for their own protection and comfort. the topics talked about in jirai spaces are triggering and disturbing. i don’t blame, nor judge jirais forthe abusive behavior neurotypicals could accuse them of — it is often not their fault and a mentally healthy person could easily harm a jirai as well. i think such interactions would end up with mutual suffering on each side." ‪♡ " to call yourself a jirai you need to wear the makeup, the clothes, and suffer from some sort of mental illness especially if your livelihood is often threatened by the fact you have these conditions. and its OKAY to not cal yourself a jirai its NOT A GOOD THING to want to be a jirai mentally ill people who call themselves jirai onna are mentally ill and just find comfort in some form by the title." ‪♡ ". i do feel like these are two separate communities with some overlap, especially with the recent western discourse. i don't like these terms as i feel they are a bit harsh but there is a difference between "fashion only jirai" and "lifestyle jirai". of course anyone can appreciate cool clothes but the landmine side of the community deserves a safe space to talk about their issues and relate to each ‪other without uneducated jirai kei wearers bashing them" ‪♡ "i wouldnt say you necessarily have to be struggling mentally to be considered jirai kei, but i dont personally like the way some fashion only jirais negatively talk about the more lifestyle jirais at times. i also however dont think lifestyle jirais should be actively trying to call people out for being a fashion only jirai. it could end up being quite harmful, as you never really know what people are going through." ‪♡ "You may have a mental illness such as BPD which directly links to the “Explosive Landmine” personality. Otherwise it’s fine to just call yourself a Fashion Landmine and only wear Jirai Kei without “being Jirai”." ‪♡ "It really depends on if someone likes the fashion only, identifies as a jirai (landmine person), or both. Someone who likes the fashion may just say they dress in jirai kei clothes. Also, just because someone identifies themselves as a stereotypical jirai and calls themselves just landmine doesn't always mean they wear the fashion either; although it's more common for someone to do both and straight-up call themselves jirai." ‪♡ "being mentally ill (and i mean... cmon a little more than just depression and anxiety because like all of gen z struggles with that((this isn't the mental illness olympics but this is meant to be a safe space for people struggling with more severe illnesses))) and owning like a few coords that isn't that one DML coord that everyone has and wearing the damn makeup" ‪♡ "I think just respecting the community. You don't have to be "mentally ill enough" to join but you do need to respect people no matter their problems and coping mechanisms." ‪♡ "Hot take but if you’re not a Jirai in Japan you’re not a true Jirai and I don’t mean the fashion I’m talking about life choices . You can wear the fashion without having to call yourself a landmine" ‪♡ "there's no requirement, anyone can wear the fashion. it's just clothes."

Do you feel like there is a difference between "Jirai Kei" and "Landmine Kei"?

Most people said no, which is the kind of idea that I had but I wanted to ask because I have seen people use them in different ways. Most of the people who said yes said that in English-speaking circles Landmine is used more to talk about the mental health aspects of things while Jirai is used more when talking about the fashion or overall community. Which I think is interesting. It seems to me that separating Landmine and Jirai is another way that people try to separate the clothing from the mental health community like the distinction people make between Jirai Kei and Dark Girly Kei fashions. (Anything else I have to say here would go into my own opinions so I'm going to leave it at that - it's an interesting thing to think about).

A few quotes: ♡ "i believe there is a difference between simply wearing jirai kei and being a landmine. people in the english speaking community generally use landmine kei to describe the mentally ill side of the community even though jirai literally means landmine. i only see landmine kei used in context of like the fashion mine vs lifestyle mine debate." ♡ "From my experience, I have seen many English speakers misinterpret the term 'Jirai Kei' and water it down to fashion but, of course, that shouldn't represent all of the English-speakers partaking in the discussion." ♡ "Anywho considering Jirai is a direct translation to Landmine, I don’t see how they could be any different." ♡ "I think Landmine Kei is more dressing up as the stereotype and Jirai Kei is the lifestyle that predates the stereotype." ♡ "I feel like calling it landmine kei does alert people more to the mental health side of the subculture"

What is your favourite part of the Jirai Kei Subculture?

This was a combined question "What is your favourite and least-favourite part of the subculture" and most people skipped the favourites part and started just talking about what they hate which did make me a little bit sad. I really liked reading about what people liked in the community.

Most people said the fashion was their favourite part. Both people who said that Jirai Kei is a mental health-based community and people who said Jirai Kei is a fashion-based community brought up fashion as a favourite part of theirs.

"Community" is a very vague thing - in this context, it mostly means they were talking about how they share a lot in common with people in the community whether that be fashion, idols, music, aesthetics, mental health, etc. However, most of the people who mentioned mental health as a main part of why they love the community are counted in "Safe Space" instead.

A few quotes: ♡ "I have dealt with a ton of ableism and med shaming before irl and in other places online, but never in the jirai community. So it makes me happy that I can vent without people treating me like I'm "crazy" or trying to force dramatic changes onto me." ♡ "I love the clothes so much of course so the aesthetic of the fashion is my favorite." ♡ "The clothes of course, I really loved visiting the clothes shops in Japan. People in Japan are really nice about my clothing and often compliment me when I wear Jirai Kei, plus all of the shopgirls are really kind." ♡ "my fav part is the super cute clothes and how u can meet so many other ppl who not only have the same fashion style, but also similiar/same issues/experiences as you, so you can share pretty much anything with no judging at all!!! ^_^" ♡ "I like having a place where I can be open about the reality of my mental illnesses without being bombarded with “solutions”." ♡ "i love wearing cute outfits, seeing other people's codes and seeing other landmines experiences ." ♡ "the fact that people actually understand how i think / feel most of the time , and that i won't get weird looks / i won't be judged for things" ♡ "Most favourite: people identifying each other and bonding over shared experiences (and of course, the fashion)" ♡ "I love the community as a space for people on all lines of recovery to come together and exist without judgement" ♡ "My favorite part of the subculture is blogs, the fact that the people in the community get to share their thoughts & be related to & validated makes me really happy" ♡ "I love how empowering Jirai Kei makes me feel."

What is your least favourite part of the Jirai Kei subculture?

NOTE BECAUSE SOME OF THEM GOT CUT OFF: ‪♡ "People who say you have to be..." is "People who say you have to be mentally ill" ‪♡ "People who use mental illness as an..." is "people who use mental illness as an excuse to be mean" ‪♡ "People who say you have to buy" is "people who say you have to buy certain brands"

The top answer was fashion Jirais. This is a combination of people who specifically said the term "Fashion Jirai" and people who said things like "people who only wear the clothes" or "people who think the community is just cute clothes and ignore the mental illness aspect of it". I combined those into the same count.

"Anti-recovery" as a category is more than just people talking about how recovery isn't front and centre like Menhera, or people talking about venting - it is specifically people who talked about people who say you cannot be in recovery if you are part of the Jirai Kei community.

"Glamorization of Sh/Ed" also is more than just people talking about posts that talk about those things, it is people who specifically said it is over-romanticized / glamourized. And as a note this is different from "lifestyle Jirais" since that category includes people that are just talking about vent posts or mention "lifestyle jirai"s by name.

"Lifestyle Jirais" and "People who don't wear the clothes" are also two different categories, lifestyle jirais is either people who said that by name or were talking about people who vent or think the community is mental-health based, and "people who don't wear the clothes" is just that, it's the people who specifically called that out.

I don't have too much to add here since I can't really add anything here without stating my personal opinions which isn't what I'm trying to do right now. I did find it comforting that most other people are sick of the discourse, and it's both people who think Jirai Kei is fashion-based and people who think Jirai Kei is mental health-based that were saying this.

A few quotes: ♡ "But there are legit people on here who act like you're 'fake' if you aren't attempting suicide every hour or something lmao" ♡ "i'm sick of sharing my safe space with people who think it's just a pink blouse and some short skirts and a bow." ♡ "putting a label on jirai that you have to act a certain way seems wrong. some rules and bashing on other girls wanting to wear the fashion is very wrong too." ♡ "i’m simply utterly terrified of rejection." ♡ "My least favorite would probably have to be those who promote self harm or say you have to engage in some sort of dangerous stuff to be a part of the subculture. While many of us do struggle with these things, it's super unnecessary to push people (mostly the fashion only jirai keis) to harm themselves." ♡ "least fav is that there are a lot of gatekeepers who want you to prove that you're actually mentally ill or they turn it into a competition of who's suffering the most. I also don't like how many jirai are anti recovery if someone chooses to recover (not forced, but their own choice). and I don't like that there are some really young kids in the community, like 13 and under" ♡ "I hate the people who slap a random pink shirt on and a black mini skirt and call it jirai because it’s not. Jirai is so much more than pink and black." ♡ "least fav is probably the fact how some ppl will say the most vile shit ever and use the fact that theyre a jirai as an excuse (it can always be a reason for said behavior, but never an excuse!! 😭😭)" ♡ "fashion "jirais". i don't like discourse at all , but i really wish people would understand the whole point of jirai kei before calling themselves a landmine :(" ♡ "the least, however, are the people who say you "dont need to be mentally ill to call yourself jirai" which is just ridiculous" ♡ "I don't like the narrative that we have to buy from the original designer or it's not Jirai, that's just buying into what the fashion industry wants you to think. A fashion is a style, not a designer brand. Quite frankly I just don't like being limited to certain brands." ♡ "Constant discourse (assuming that people can't resonate with the subcul just because they're not as vocal about their experiences as the others PLUS the bullying of actual people who struggle for venting when that is the core of this subcul)" ♡ "i wish it was more mature because many jirai people are in their early teens (12-14) and i feel the need to act as a role model in spaces that include minors, rather than speaking freely as i would normally among people closer to my age" ♡ "least favourite: weird gatekeeping (eg. "you can't wear jirai kei because you're not mentally ill""), shaming peoples looks and fatshaming in general" ♡ "My least favorite is the ones who say you have to be anti-recovery to be jirai. It's okay to be tired of hurting." ♡ "i detest the infighting, and the way that it's rapidly growing is kind of pissing me off because im more comfortable in smaller communities" ♡ "As for least favourite, glorification of ED and SH (I must note, glorification, not just the fact people discuss/have it in the community) as well as the fatphobia and such"

Overall very interesting read and very mixed responses, but also not actually as mixed as I thought they would be. Most people landed somewhere in the middle where they considered both fashion and mental health to be parts of the subculture and just had different levels of importance for those two things. Most people also did mention mental health being part of their reasoning for being here, whether they engage more in the fashion side of things or the mental health side of things.

If there are any clarifying questions about what the titles of things in these graphs really mean or why I chose to break things down in the way that I did I am more than happy to provide clarification to that! I'll try to respond to any comments like that as soon as I can. I won't be engaging in discourse or defending any points or anything (at least not here) - this is more about the answers to the survey and not my personal opinions so pls understand T-T.

If you read all that mess thank you! Took me a while to actually get all of this compiled. If you didn't thank you regardless! Especially if you responded in the survey to begin with ♡

Also if anyone is uncomfortable with their answer being posted in the answers document please contact me either on Tumblr @jiraisupportgroup or on Reddit @ Mara-melody (DMs should be open on both) with the details about which response was yours and I will delete it from the publicly available document! Thank you!!

[phoenixyfriend]

The groupings are not based on trying to ensure equal demographics in each, but by proximity to and impact of the Bering Strait Land Bridge theory or other relation to prehistoric colonization of the Americas.

I wasn't sure how to group Oceania and the Polynesian/Micronesian/Melanesian folks given the overall histories, so you get your own bunch. I can't remember if those theories about Polynesians reaching the Americas for trade on occasion, prior to written records, are legitimate/supported or just a thing I heard once. Either way, I think that history of 'discovering unpopulated lands by heading east from large landmasses' is similar enough that maybe it comes up for overlapping histories? IDK! You get your own buttons.

Also wasn't sure if it would make sense to include SEAsia with East Asia or lump it in with the rest, buuuut I think upon reviewing the maps that it looks like the Strait is a lot less geographically/politically related to most of East Asia than I thought, so there's less of a difference between EAsia and SEAsia than I thought, enough that marking them out separately from Russia but not each other probably works.

I initially wrote out a less America-Specific description of primary/secondary or elementary/middle/high but honestly? It took up too much space. Appropriate disambiguation made the title so long that people wouldn't have read it. So. You get K-12 or equivalent.

I'm including Mexico with Central America for two reasons: 1. Most Mexicans I've seen talking on the topic recently, at least on tumblr, prefer to be divided in that direction for cultural reasons. 2. Geographically much more distant from the Bering Strait than its northern neighbors.

Also, please reblog! I want this to go past my primarily anglophone-countries circle if possible.

[doberbutts]

it sounds like the anon who sent the ask about the intersex fanfic character is wanting to write a story “about being intersex” i.e. about the personal experiences of being intersex, given they mentioned wanting to write about “how it affects his life” and “what happens if people find out” (both phrased in a way that seems to presume negativity and difficulty). I think you gave good advice from a worldbuilding perspective but I would add to that that overall the prevailing advice for writers is not to write about the ~great personal struggle~ of being [x minority] if you’re portraying a character with an identity you yourself don’t share; and (to the asker) if you are really determined to do that anyway as a perisex person, you should consider doing more research than sending a tumblr ask. read a few books or something. (i think if they go with your very wise worldbuilding advice this would no longer apply, the wording simply gave me pause.)

I understand that that is the prevailing advice, however I disagree to a certain extent.

I think that if you are not [marginalized demographic here] and you are trying to write about the experiences of said demographic, including any sort of personal struggle, then you have a duty to ensure that you do your research to present the best representation of said demographic you possibly can, and that you should be open to advice if someone from said demographic tells you that you are falling into dangerous tropes or stereotypes.

However, I do not think that only [demographic] should write [demographic]. This is for a few reasons:

In writing a demographic different from your own, and doing research to ensure that you are doing it well, you as the author will learn a great deal about what you have to unpack and unlearn about said demographic, including things you were not even aware of before. This, to me, is a positive thing. It is one more ally in the struggle for freedom.

I'm thinking specifically of Tamora Pierce and her books which include multiple races, ethnicities, sexualities, and genders that Pierce herself has voiced that she avoided on purpose because she was afraid that she'd fuck them up. And how she felt her world get a little wider, when she got over that fear and started making sure to include these demographics because she felt that it was important to her to understand them.

But also, your readers are predominately going to be your demographic, which means that you have the power and potential to spread this same learning over a much wider net. Harper Lee and Louis Sachar are nonblack, however To Kill A Mockingbird and Holes are widely read in schools to learn about antiblack racism and are frequently used as a baseline to teach children of all demographics. Yes, schools should also be using books by actual black people, but I do not think either of these titles are necessarily bad choices. Miles Morales of Spiderverse fame was initially created by an entire team of nonblack people, and yet the movies touch heavily on the subject of racism being a constant background in his life. I have not yet read the comics, and don't know that I ever will since I'm not a comics kind of guy, so I cannot speak to those.

Anyway the last reason that I disagree that only [demographic] should write [demographic] is because then that turns into overall less representation and less diversity. I'm a big fantasy fan. I'm so happy when I see a black character in fantasy, and even moreso when that black character is outside of the Bad Guys Only races. And I think that if we only let black people make black characters, we will see overall less black characters, because black people are often willfully excluded from the writers room and production staff. I'd rather an all-white team do their due diligence to ensure good representation, than no black characters at all because black writers can't even get in the door. Of course, the solution is More Black Writers, but this is a multifaceted problem worsened by racist society, so the baby steps are what we have to work with.

I do agree that anon does need to do more research. However, intersex books that are actually written by the community, rather than medical journals treating us as an oddity, are fairly few and far between. Asking a random blog is not enough research, no. But it may help them get started on where to look.

[olderthannetfic]

As someone who's college age: yeah, there's a TON of people my age who don't know how things work and don't try to learn. Can't unzip a zip file, want to know where to download anime but haven't tried looking it up, ask things on subreddits a Google search or quick search on the wiki would answer, ask questions answered in FAQs or by professors or in the syllabus, say they can't download and install a new browser or app or program because they don't know how and they never think to look up how to do so, go months without logging into their student email because no one explained to them how to do so and they never thought to ask anyone how to do it, go months without washing their laundry because they don't know how and they also don't know how to look up instructions on how to do it, don't know how to cook and can't Google a recipe so they throw things in a pan and pray it works out, don't understand how to back up files, don't know how to attach a pdf to an email to send to a professor, cannot manage to put stuff on a USB drive + go to the library + print it off of the library computer, etc.

I spent most of freshman year teaching people things. The year after, my patience got more frayed and "Google it" started coming out of my mouth a lot more. This last year I gave up and now if people fuck themselves over, that's their decision. I'm not going to stand there begging people to do basic things they should already know how to do.

It was really funny when someone from Career Services came to talk to us about resumes and said we didn't need to put down 'can use Microsoft Excel' on there because everyone knew that and all but three people said actually no, they didn't. People who are 40+ really think we're all good at tech by default, like we fall out of the womb clutching a little phone already making spreadsheets in Excel or coding computers or whatever.

Meanwhile in reality you see a ton of people posting on tumblr going, "How do I post fic on tumblr?" whose blogs proudly state that they're under 18. The thought that you could just type into a Word doc and then copy and paste onto here never hits. And it's not going to.

I hate to break it to millennials and older people but yeah, actually, my generation does in fact have morons. We're not a moron-free demographic. I'm pretty sure moron-free demographics don't exist, tbh.

--

It infuriates me that my father (in his 80s) is always saying to me that he needs to find a 12-year-old to explain his tech to him. I (40s) keep telling him it's more like a bell curve or something. We had a blip of people being taught in school or having their asses kicked about technology. But then it went away again.

I think we made computers and then phones much more accessible, which is great, but we forgot we still need to teach people things. I know not everyone got explicit instruction in school even in my era, but it seems like the US, at least, phased some of that out as we started assuming The Youth automatically knew it all.

That said... in my day, college freshmen were also terrible about doing their laundry, so some things never change.

[hostilemuppet]

you guys say thus every fucking time a "bad" movie or tv show comes out and you never learn that their source of income is not going to be a bunch of 20 somethings who grew up watching yogscast buying tickets "for the bit". it is going to be parents taking their kids who play minecraft pocket edition on their phones. when will you guys learn that the main demographic of kids movies is in fact children. the minecraft movie is probably gonna make a buttload of money because it is the minecraft movie and children love minecraft and will beg their parents to take them. you posting on tumblr "dont hatewatch" isnt going to do anything, the same way posting it about velma or big mouth or whatever wasnt gonna do anything bc their main demographics are grown adults with jobs putting it to halfwatch after work over dinner which is why they got insanely good ratings. you arent going to fucking do anthing by saying "dont hatewatch" bc hatewatchers probably account for 5% of views MAXIMUM please stop trying oh my god oh my god oh my god

[historicity-was-already-taken]

Welcome New Followers Post xiv

gonna make this bullet points of Things to Know because deadlines, but hi! welcome!

-this is not a jewish identity or a jumblr blog. i am a jewish person and a holocaust historian, so my content often overlaps with those realms of tumblr

-this is first and foremost a public history blog. public history and public historians do history for the public. we're passionate about transmitting complex historical topics from the academe to the people, and we're in constant (one-sided lmao) conversation with entities such as: film writers and producers, textbook writers, government bodies, journalists, etc regarding the construction of public memory, and the responsibilities that entails

-you don't have to ask if something is ok to reblog. I appreciate the thought, but unless I turn off reblogs or specifically ask people not to engage in certain ways, you're fine, that said:

-I do see and read all tags, replies, and rbs. I consider them public, and I often respond to them as new posts. If you want to engage with me and don't want others to see, then send me an ask which includes the words "please respond privately"

-You can should disagree with me and tell me when you think I'm wrong! Now, I won't lie, years of existing as a young-appearing hyper feminine (i like skirts and bows and sparkly shoes it is what it is) female, Jewish historian have made me defensive and bitey af, and I often misread neutral tones as "coming for me" tones and respond in kind. I apologize for when/if that happens to you, and I assure that, once I realize you're not coming at me in bad faith, I will feel horribly guilty.

-There is a learning curve here. I don't have any desire to gatekeep my blog (it's the opposite tbh), but I do use high level terms which can have multiple meanings in different contexts. I actively try to avoid using impenetrable academic jargon in this space, but sometimes that jargon is the only appropriate phrasing available. In those cases, I urge you to do some research and poke around and then, if you still don't understand what I mean, DM me.

-I am a white, American woman. I am actively anti-racist, and anti-bigotry in general, but there will be times when I do or say something clueless or privileged. If you see that and you have the energy, please tell me! I want this blog to be a welcome place for all,* and I appreciate call-outs as an opportunity for (un)learning.

-Building on that, this is an anti-bigotry space which I'd like people of all demographics and identities to feel comfortable engaging with.* That said, I don't play nice when some random corner of tumblr rolls up in here and barfs their shit all over my posts.

-I am a cringe millennial. I started this blog in 2011, when I was 21, had just finished college, before I'd heard back from any graduate schools, and before I had much resembling a career. I am currently 34. It's fine. But a lot of you are in your teens and 20s and are just starting on your careers, so like, please don't negatively compare yourselves to me or get self-deprecating when/if you want to contact me. We all learn and achieve at different paces and that's ok.

-My book, The Girl Bandits of the Warsaw Ghetto, will be released in Fall 2025. Trust me I will be screaming from the rooftops and you will not miss the announcements lmao.

-If I don't reply to an ask or a DM, it's not because I hate you. There are 800 reasons why I may not reply, and none of them are personal.

and finally

-I am not your Good Leftist Anti-Zionist Jew. I am not here as a rhetorical cudgel for left-wing anti-Semites who seek out Jews with politics similar to mine to then use as a weapon against other Jewish folks. Don't fucking do it.

*That does not mean that everything I post here will make you feel comfortable. History isn't supposed to make you feel comfortable. Sometimes, it can and should make you feel actively uncomfortable, because that discomfort/cognitive dissonance means you're learning (keep your cognitive dissonance temper tantrums tf away from me, tho). It does mean that I, as an individual, want you all to feel that this is a space where you are welcome to learn and ask questions.

i tried to use bullet points to keep this short, and i failed miserably. on brand.

[birdyverdie]

I don't give a fuck about Hazbin Hotel but the amount of vitriol this site leaves on fans of the show is genuinely fucked up. I'll be reading some tags on some stray Hazbin post on my dash and it's some of the most dehumanizing comments I have ever seen. And I was Homestuck fan. I've SEEN cruelty. I've experienced it being 13 years old and walking through a con with my Feferi cosplay on as groups of teens sling insults at me.

Does Tumblr ever learn? Is Tumblr doomed to repeat its same mistakes over and over again?

Yall better calm the fuck down with the way yall talk to other people, can't believe I gotta pull out the golden rule and say: act the way you wanna be treated!

Who the fuck cares about the bullshit someone consumes? Moral puritanism only hurts the expression of creativity, you're literally falling into the capitalistic dogma of trying to copy+paste whatever appeals to the broadest family-friendly demographic. We gotta cut out this purity culture I swear to goddd, if this continues all of us are gonna be watching Little Einsteins and STILL find a way to bash on each other about the show. Everything is problematic baby!! It's reality!!

Be fan of whatever you want! Consume that problematic media! Life is too harsh and too short to give a fuck. Normal society sees all us fandom-enjoyers as freaks anyways.

This is some of the stupidest infighting I see here. Literally who cares. Who the fuck cares about the shit someone else watches. Scroll away! Close the app! Block the poster! Stop leaving hate comments on people just living their lives.

[gingerylangylang1979]

Male identity: Carmy and Richie

I’m finding that a certain demographic of fans have a much harder time relating to Carmy but very much relate to Richie. Granted, a lot of this has to do with what fandom platform you observe. I actually kind of hate The Bear subreddit but continue to browse it periodically because it’s super interesting to hear what “the others” are talking about. I rarely engage anymore because it’s mostly nonsense and a totally different vibe than Tumblr. The contingent is definitely very anti-Carmy x Sydney and seems to hate Sydney. I’ve also noticed that while there is a lot of love for Carmy there is even more love for Richie. I’m very intrigued by this perspective. 

This season Richie was definitely a standout. I think Ebon is an amazing actor and am glad he is finally getting nominated for his role. I thought he got robbed with the non-Emmy nominations. But even before S2 I noticed that Richie was the most favored character among the Reddit demo and perhaps a big part of the general audience. That’s fine, people can favor who they like. I know that doesn’t represent everyone but I do think that speaks for what I consider general audience and makes sense considering how society still views manhood despite social progress. This season even a lot of the reviews were kind of meh about Carmy. I get it, I initially was writing him off too, was pissed, and thought he had the worst arc. Then once thoughts settled he went back to being my hero. Deeply flawed, but I just relate to him so much and he’s fascinating to watch. I’m a woman, so maybe that helps my empathy. I also don’t think The Bear would work with Richie as the lead as some have suggested. 

The thing is Carmy is a more difficult character because he has multiple layers of trauma, his work is so specialized and niche, he is a sensitive soul, he’s artistic, and he doesn’t fit the mold of the working class male models he was surrounded by. Your typical man can’t relate to him. And most likely your typical conservative leaning woman can’t either. At the Christmas party he was appalled at how the other guys were talking about Claire. And this is a woman he had a crush on and is present day attracted to. He could have easily been superficial and macho and laughed at the jokes as expected. He didn’t let Richie get away with calling Syd sweetheart. Richie says he’s “woke”. He employs a woman in a leadership role. He’s built different. 

He is struggling in many ways that are hidden and he also lashes out. The hidden ways and the lashing out are interpreted as whiny and annoying by people that can’t relate. He’s been cited as not growing but people can’t acknowledge that his healing won’t be linear. But how can it be when his trauma was collected in overlapping seasons for most of his life? The pain didn’t develop in a linear path. He had a stutter when he was young. There are hints that there is a learning issue of some sort (I’m not going to try and diagnose). He was always the “different” one in the family. The other guys call him “weird”. His father was absent. His mom has mental health issues and is an alcoholic. He witnessed the traumatic incident at Christmas and I’m sure it wasn’t the only such incident. His brother was an addict that pushed him away, then killed himself. He went into a chaotic, highly demanding field that required him to isolate to excel. He is shy and has trouble forming close bonds. He had a mentally abusive boss. He was always super competitive. He comes back to own The Beef and it’s problem after problem. How are people expecting him to be “fun” and have an easy comeback like Richie? 

Richie has issues, too. Stagnant in mid-life, spent years devoted to an addict, failed marriage, feeling disillusioned and displaced, also an absent father. But when we meet Richie he’s not as wounded as Carmy. Carmy is literally sleep cooking, almost starting fires, dissociating, having panic attacks. Richie is sad but it mostly manifests as him being kind of nasty and grumpy. He’s like a sour old man with dated and offensive jokes. His behavior is dismissed because he’s grieving. Which yes, he deserves a pass. But why does he deserve a bigger pass than Carmy who is dealing with so much more or Sydney who seemed to bear the biggest brunt of his outrage and was also struggling? Carmy is literally on the verge of a breakdown and has the weight of trying to keep the staff, the business, and himself afloat. Despite all this Richie gets a lot of indulgences for his bad behavior that Carmy isn’t. 

Richie is easier for a lot of people to digest because he’s funny, he’s the working class representative, he’s tall (yes people have height bias, especially with men). Carmy is viewed as the pompous prodigal son that’s trying to ruin Richie’s delicate ecosystem by gentrifying and kicking out “the working man”. There are people posting in disgust that he dare change The Beef despite it being a hell hole money pit. 

It’s just so interesting that in reality we are dealing with an unprecedented numbers of men who report extreme loneliness, depression, hopelessness. Richie and Carmy both fit that profile. Yet, a man like Richie is broadly understood and accepted and a man like Carmy isn’t. It goes back IMO to the continual coding of masculine/good vs feminine/bad. Richie is the stereotypical red blooded American male. He wants the stripper’s panties. He has a gun. He needs to be alpha. He views anything outside the norm as a threat. He wants to preserve tradition at all costs. Carmy is his foil. Carmy is viewed as feminine. 

I see it even on Tumblr with the persistent identification of Carmy as somehow feminine. Like he can’t be soft and traumatized and just be a man. So what does that say when even people who would probably consider themselves progressive still classify a man in feminine terms if he isn’t a MAN? We accept all types of gender identities but still struggle with a man not fitting the correct paradigm. Society still has issues accepting that men can be vulnerable and struggling without being feminized. People also make assumptions about Carmy’s gender identity and sexuality based on his trauma. Like, of course he has to be XYZ because well, look at him, he’s sad an pathetic. What does that say about men’s sexuality and identity? Are only queer men accepted as sad? Carmy could be a queer character, cool, representation matters. But I just find the semi-automatic equation of queerness with an atypical male to be odd and a bit regressive. 

Edited to add on above: I hope what I’m saying doesn’t get interpreted as dismissing queer people who identify with Carmy. I get it, I support it. What I’m speaking to is the insistence that canon Carmy is queer because of his interests, aesthetic, and mental health as if that is the only identity option. Granted, he could be bi. I also think some people are insistent on this, just as they are on Syd not being into men, as a way to negate the possibility of them being romantic. Again, I’m saying some people. Also, proximity and shared struggle doesn’t equal identity. This makes me think of once when a white gay male bestie claimed we are the same because I’m a black women. I had to kindly correct. We share the same haters, we are both marginalized, but he will never know my experience just like I will never know his. We can bond on the commonalities but we aren’t exactly the same. IMO, it would be a disservice to both of us to claim different.

I’m really rambling, but just thought I would share my thoughts and open a conversation about this. 

[goncharov-propaganda-factory]

Mishapocalypse: what the-

Hey, former redditors! Welcome to the hellsite, we're all glad that you're here (especially you 196 folk you warm my dead, frozen heart). While on the whole you seem to be adapting AMAZINGLY fast to site culture, if any of you are confused over one of our founding myths this may help.

(or if you're a veteran tumblrina and just want to read an essay that's fine too)

(others key parts of our national identity to learn about if you're curious include Goncharov, I Love You, Color of the Sky, My Three Girlfriends, and many more)

also if you don't want to read my entire fucking essay take this and run

but if you want to know the deal with this man, read on!

Mishorigins

Supernatural is a 2000s-ass TV series that ran on the CW from 2005 to 2020. It's about two brothers, Sam and Dean Winchester, who are "hunters" that protect people from various supernatural entities. The show was originally planned to last five seasons, with an angel character named Castiel (this is important) slated to be revealed as God in the finale. Castiel (nicknamed Cass by the CW and Cas by objectively correct people) was introduced in S4.

left: Castiel, the gay angel of our collective dreams. right: Misha Collins.

The Man Behind the Mish

Misha Collins is a straight man who was forced by a cruel and uncaring god to play a heavily queer coded angel on a TV series intended for any demographic BUT gay teens (which is what it became). His performance as Castiel, and the large queer teen fanbase he drew, were a driving force behind a show would ultimately continue for three times longer its original plan.

I don't have anywhere else to put these facts so they go here

he was an intern in the Clinton administration during the Lewinsky scandal

he knows Tibetan throat singing

he was arrested for climbing onto a bank roof (he was trying to... read a book? 👀👀👀)

he probably made Jensen Ackles (the guy who played Dean less homophobic? Maybe?

he held a scavenger hunt called GISHWHES several times for his charity, Random Acts

cool guy

he later played Harvey Dent on Gotham Knights this very year (2023)

there's icebergs of this shit

he farted on an airplane once

Mishion: Impossible

April 1st, 2013 is a date that will live in mishinfamy. Tumblr a main hub of the SuperWhoLock fandom (a mega-fandom amalgamating Supernatural, Sherlock BBC, and Doctor Who), was the only place the Mishapocalypse could happen.

For boring deets I'll redirect you to the KnowYourMeme page but these images should sum it up.

left: a list of Tumblr users, circa 2013. right: a fine example of Misha culture

There are two takeaways here:

You cannot outrun Misha.

You will become him.

On April 1, 2013, a significant portion of Tumblr changed their avatar to the now-iconic Mishapocalypse photo and their handle to "Misha Collins", followed by similar waves of Mish across other social media sites.

above: the modern Prometheus

This beautiful event was emblematic of pre-Dashcon Tumblr, an era as far away from us now as 1200 AD was from 1208 AD. You'll be pleased to know that the Mishapocalypse returns every April 1st to grace these ancient halls, a small group of pilgrims tracing new paths on the well-worn floor of the Church of Misha.

(this isn't to say the Supernatural fandom is dead, it's just somewhat diminished from it's glory days.

Thanks for reading! Reblog if you liked. I'll leave you with a bunch of Mishimages of my own that I posted for Mishapocalypse 23 (the 10th anniversary). Shameless self-promotion!!!

in clockwise order:

The Mona Misha

Mishius

Misha's extra hour in the ball pit

The Mishian (with Mish Damon)

Future ideas include Salvator Misha. Feel free to ask any questions you have, and I hope you enjoy Tumblr.

Happy Mishing!

ps I have not actually watched supernatural you just learn all of this via osmosis

[thegodthief]

THIRTEEN YEARS AGO... bloody hell... I've been on this hellsite for thirteen years?!

(Fucking metal, eh.)

Anyways, thirteen years ago, I got on Tumblr because some folks in witchblr had gotten ahold of a shitpost on my personal blog, took it seriously, and was passing it around like it was The Rules of Witchdom™. Some of the folks I contacted were surprised to find that what their bestie had posted as absolute truth was in fact, a poorly written parody. Some of the folks were angry with me and demanded that I apologize for tricking them. And a few folks even tried to say that my shit post was copying them because they were true witches and a true witch never shitposts.

But quite a few more had fun with the shitpost and added to it in the same jovial spirit that it started with. And that was how my conversations with other Tumblrites started.

If I was only now coming to Tumblr, I don't think my entrance would be that open. I don't think I could even get a toehold. Too many folk are gone. Too many folk have passed. Too many folk have pulled away from open social media because too many folk have carved out territories and kingdoms and by the power of ego, exposure to other opinions and worldviews will not be tolerated.

It feels like before I can step into any outer court, I have to make penance and apologize for coming from the wrong demographic and level of ignorance. Like there is no such thing as a honest seeker trying to learn about the world. For a long time, I thought I was extending my childhood traumas into the present, but no, it's not just me.

I realize this has me defensive of any "surprise" interaction. I catch myself being just as suspicious of something new as the people that I'm bitching about. I sit and wonder if the contact is benign or if I'm being set up to be the butt of someone else's jokes. I still catch myself apologizing for being sucked into a personality cult for a few years, even though no one is publicly calling me out for it anymore. I keep wondering if I'm blacklisted, still blacklisted, or only discarded.

My life has changed since I first got on Tumblr. The world has changed since I first got on Tumblr. I'm trying to learn how the two will interact.

[wet-paws]

-----------🌿MAKING FRIENDS 🌿-----------

I often see and hear many forms of inquiry and advice surrounding this subject, and you can't go a posts throw away without finding someone who in some way may hold difficulty, discomfort or uncertainty in this avenue of development, so I thought I'd come to offer the best I've read:

Circulate

Find spaces that bring you peace, particularly public ones. Library, Book Store, Aquarium, Museums, Parks, Community areas,. Frequent them, give the space a chance one day a week, make it the same one and consistently show up.

Others will come and go and after a while, as much as you take notice to the regulars of that day, many will take notice of you and your new placement. Your presence in a space they've previously held unknown to you and most of the time, you don't even need to be the first one to speak., they'll approach and even if you don't know what to say, you're already relating by doing the same things on the same days as a shared activity of interest. Lead with that topic and go from there., gradually books lead to ownership of copies, adventures, places you read, if you like coffee or tea or whatever else..

I'd like to say I have advice for the ones at-home, I suppose much along the same lines, you frequent familiar or friendly web pages. Tumblr, this..that. wherever you feel you can comfortably hold a presence. Show up, be consistent.. give some of yourself to the world to be seen. We often times forget online instances are without tone in many cases apart from what's taken into assumption of whats written in those tones, which can be a bit messy.

I utilize feeding my blog with related imagery, interests, passions, and definitely the occasional thought, feeling, or posts like these because it helps me think, breathe, and help others do the same. When people recognize a bit about you from your established interests, passions, and demographics, they tend to find grounds they can relate to, if not hold specific interest in how you wear it. Write it. Feel it.

Circulate.

Be a presence. Make yourself known. Be honest and genuine with YOURSELF,. I know that's scary. As a girl who is all of what I am, I GET that,. But you have needs, and those should be met if not with some of the passionate effort you can dedicate to courage you find over time above the fear it won't work, then the kind input of those who hear you, recognize you in your energies, efforts and determination.

Don't give up on yourself. You deserve this. Friends. Consistency. Connection. A fair and healthy bond of balance and peace for your mind and spirit in confirmation from them and of you, you are both equally accepted and welcome in that space. Ready and open-minded to learn.

About yourself and about others.

Circulate. ♻️

[Friendly reminder that this tag 📖 in my tags list will ALWAYS lead you to Positivity. Self Health, Internal Growth And Development, Truthful Reassurance, Tools to learn HOW to Fish and not just more fish in the now.. it is not monitored who shares or uses these posts. These ones I write myself just for all of you. It's for all of us. Share it. Use it. Recycle it. Chew it like ginger gum. For an intrinsic boost of wellness.]

[Please try to keep my tags intact to see this circulates with the benefit it's intended. These ones are for EVERYONE 🤍]

[spiderfreedom]

idk if it's just me but I have never experienced the whole "guy tries to be your friend just to have sex with you thing." I tried to date a male friend once and he was not interested. I 100% believe it happens to others, but I guess I've been blessed. I have male friends who have been honest, reliable people in my life. My closest friends are female, but I'm happy to have the friends I do in general.

I'm actually sad that online spaces have become more gender polarized in general. I used to go on fan forums as a kid and while they were usually majority male, there was always a substantial female contingent. Some were 50-50 or even majority female. I feel like most fandoms I try to interact with nowadays are gender segregated - go on tumblr to talk to female and trans people, go on reddit for the rest. On Twitter people self-segregate with different follow lists. There's little overlap.

I had many positive experiences on these forums - I got to learn and understand the perspectives of people quite unlike myself. And I like to imagine they got to learn something from me. I enjoy being in all-female and majority female spaces. But I miss the small, gender-mixed spaces where I felt safe expressing my opinions, regardless of demographic differences. That seems to have entirely disappeared.

I suspect this is because of algorithmic engines funneling people who are likeminded together, and the general largeness of the internet now. Back in the day if you wanted to discuss [small property], there would probably be one or two forums you could join, and you had to coexist with whoever was there. It's much easier now to just leave and find people like you - to "curate your experience", as we're fond of saying on Tumblr. The post Gamergate/manosphere climate has also made gender politics in general much more insufferable and hostile.

If I don't actively fight it and seek out new spaces, I can tell that I end up in a bubble. My friends have only gotten more radicalized over time in whatever positions they previously had. If I don't do something about it, to try to join different communities, I can feel the same thing happening to me. All my friends who are not like me (different race, male, different political background, etc.) come from high school, where you mix with the general population. Everyone I've befriended since is someone from a similar class, politic, race, etc. to me. I find it weird. I don't want to be in a bubble. But it's very hard to break out when you're no longer in an environment that forces different people together. And the internet is no longer a help in befriending people who aren't like you.

[olderthannetfic]

https://www.tumblr.com/olderthannetfic/730572795212398592/what-is-up-with-all-the-trans-men-on-this-hellsite?source=share

As a trans man, I might have some insight into this one. I'm a lot older than the standard uwu sparkle anti, but I was in my mid twenties for the first wave of weirdness about trans boys on Tumblr about a decade ago, so I was just too old for it then, and I saw a lot of guys my age and a little younger get swept up in it.

OTNF rightly points out that young trans men are a particularily vulnerable demographic. This is part of it, but we're also a demographic that doesn't sit comfortably with our identites (gender identities or otherwise) and are told by everyone (on every side) that we are Doing It Wrong, that our existence harms others, and that we must be this specific way to be good people.

I'm sure you've seen the "trans men are better than real cis men" rhetoric. It's meant to be inclusive and to reassure us that we're not bad people just because of our gender, but it also denies us our entire gender identity.

So basically, you've got a bunch of young guys, most of whom were socialised like girls and learned to never be too assertive, many of whom are straight up suffering from dysphoria and stress, being told by people both within and outside of their communities that the are Wrong and Bad and Harmful just for existing. It makes sense that a lot of them would would find a movement based on moral posturing that will accept them if they perform correctly and will use their real name and pronouns. That's what Antis are; they say "use this vocabulary, send hate mail to that person, put these terms in your DNI, don't be caught reading that story", and, unlike other groups that police people's tastes and performance that hard, they're not overtly hostile to trans identities. So you can spout the right rhetoric, use the right tumblr icon, and they will actually accept you (on the surface, for a time, but we're talking about young and desperate people who aren't looking at the long game).

Helping them harass those badwrong horrible NOTP shippers or aces or middle aged women or some random artist who got caught drawing the wrong age gap or whoever is the fashionable target will prove that you aren't a horrible monster for being a man, you're moral and upright and correct.

And yes a lot of it is internalised misandry (that word has a lot of dumb baggage, but how else can I describe a boy who hates himself for being a boy?), or self-loathing born of dysphoria and just plain having to live in a world that's hostile to trans people.

Being an anti is a way out. It's a way to manufacture acceptence. And they're too young and too hurt to realise that that acceptance is as temporary and hostile as the people who accept them only if they pretend to be girls; the antis will turn on them the moment they start acting a little too manly or if they're caught liking the wrong ship.

(I've seen something similar happen to young cis queer guys and trans girls, too, but it isn't as pronounced since being raised as a boy means you probably already learned that standing up for yourself is ok sometimes)

--

I'm sure it also doesn't help that tumblr is absolutely full of BL/slash fandom. There's certainly plenty of gender diversity in these spaces, but it's inescapable that the majority of participants are women. So for a young, insecure guy trying to assert that he is a guy, it's easy to fall prey to "Waaaah, I need to reclaim my hobby for me!" gatekeepy nonsense.

Sure, it's going to be turned on nbs even harder than on cis women and will be used to misgender other trans men in the end and misogyny isn't cool anyway, but that's not what your average traumatized young fool is thinking when they first join up. They're thinking "I hurt."

TBH, though, probably the largest component is that all of us—all of us—have a mental image of a default human for a given context. It's rarely a trans man. And so anything a trans man does stands out and is A Thing Trans Men Do.

This is true even if you are trans. It is true even if you are not a transphobic dickhead. Unlearning the 'why girls are bad at math' xkcd strip is extraordinarily hard because recognizing patterns and having mental defaults is just how human brains work.

There are shittons of cis women who become antis, but they're just not notable in the same way.

Are trans men more vulnerable to becoming antis? It's possible, and the reasons you outlined above are likely why. I think it's an interesting question to discuss if we are specifically discussing why the trans men who do become antis do so.

But we don't actually have any hard facts to support that they are more prone to it than anybody else. My guess would be that vulnerable people are more likely to become antis, so any cis woman with a strong source of vulnerability like a shittastic home life is similarly vulnerable to a young trans man with no support network, but who knows.

Maybe only 5% of trans men on tumblr are antis and 50% of cis women. Maybe it's 90% of trans men and 20% of cis women. Maybe it's 1% and 1% and they're just all very loud.

We have no data. We just don't know.

And we will never be able to trust our own brains on this until trans vs. cis is such a nonissue that we don't even notice it.

[stripedtabbycat]

normally i feel like i can't relate to most posts about reading books you were way too young for as a kid/teen because despite being a Reader from a young age i never really actively sought out books that were above my age level. i just kind of assumed as a kid that i wouldn't be interested in Adult Books because they were only appealing to grown-ups and that was that. i did read the occasional ya book while below the target demographic - i don't think my mom knew the princess diaries books were actually for teenagers when i was reading them at age 9-10 lol. i don't remember how i acquired them but i owned the first 3 and did not understand half of what they were talking about until we learned what sex was in fifth grade health class. (this may sound like i was a very sheltered child but i really wasn't, i just didn't go outside of what i assumed was appropriate for me very much. my parents rarely actively forbade me from reading anything, but that might have been because i wasn't as adventurous a reader as i could have been, despite my high reading level according to my teachers.)

that said i did recently remember that i read one flew over the cuckoo's nest by ken kesey when i was 14-15 and fucking loved it. this was right around the age when i was in fact starting to read more classic books on my own, so not that out of the way for my age, but still kind of a swing for a high school freshman. i think somehow my mom and i starting watching clips from the movie on youtube, and she said it was a really great film but i was interested in reading the book first, so we bought a copy online, a really nice 50-year anniversary edition, and i devoured it that summer. i watched the movie afterwards but because i was so invested in the book i ended up a little disappointed that it was pretty different in a lot of ways.

i also recently rewatched the movie and reread the book. still thinking about the experience of the latter; i realized it had been a while since i last read it.

under a cut for discussion of sensitive topics and also - shocker - this got long.

for someone who was just starting to get into the kind of very zealous tumblr-style social justice at the time i had a remarkable tolerance for "problematic" content in older literature. nowadays i don't think that "well it was a different time, we can't judge older works by modern standards" or "how dare you try to CANCEL the Classics" are any more productive modes of engaging with criticism than "wow this old book is super problematic, we should never read it ever again". so i don't know what young me made of the way this book uses gender and race as themes. it's from 1962 so it's really not that old in comparison to works of classic literature that get talked about like that, which i guess makes it less excusable to some. since i wasn't reading it for class or consciously analyzing it at the time i probably didn't think about it too hard. now reading it again i can.

although the book's mental institution setting is reflective of what psychiatric hospitals were like at the time - the author was working the night shift at a veterans' hospital psych ward when he started writing it - it's also clearly meant to be a metaphor for broader society, while also being a place to either "fix" the people who don't fit into that society or keep them hidden away from it. and it's also pretty clear about what it means that in this hospital in particular, all the patients are men and the head oppressive authority is a woman. the system is explicitly described as a "matriarchy", her means of oppression is basically described as emasculation, there's a very uncomfortable conversation between two men where they basically say that the only real power men have over women is sexual - although the man saying this is all but stated to be gay and the guy he's talking to, who's been in jail for statutory rape, seems put off by the idea and never seriously considers it. there's layers, i guess. but the way the oppressive female antagonist is taken down is in an attack that leaves her blouse torn open and her breasts exposed, and part of the reason she no longer commands as much authority after that is because now everyone has seen her in that state which proves she is in fact a woman. not subtle, really. not every female character is antagonistic, but it feels like a classic case of "woman + power = evil", right?

there's a lot you could say about how this is one of the few situations at the time in which a woman genuinely would have power over men and how it's just that the kinds of people drawn to those kinds of positions of authority over vulnerable people are the kinds who would abuse it - see the modern "mean girl to nurse" pipeline. but is the book asserting that? it's very hard to tell because of how often books written by men will use women (or a woman) as representative of an antagonistic force and seem to genuinely believe that women are "really" the ones in charge in society, so what can i say?

then there's the racial element, also pretty hard to ignore; ratched's orderlies are all black, and the novel makes a point of saying that she deliberately hires that way - she clearly has absolute power over them as a white woman with authority, but they're also antagonists without much sympathy or humanization afforded to them and the narration can get pretty pointed in the way it describes them, always referring to them as "the black boys", and mcmurphy outright dropping slurs in heated moments that don't get questioned or even commented on by anyone. sure you could say this is all intentional as part of the way marginalized people are pitted against other marginalized people and encouraged to take out their anger on whoever's below them in the hierarchy, but...is it?

on the other hand, the main character - or, well, the narrator, it's one of those books where the narrator and the "main character" are supposed to be different people but i never quite got that concept when i was younger and i figure if we spend enough of the book inside one character's head they deserve to be considered A main character, you know? - is native american and the author is a lot more respectful and empathetic towards indigenous characters than you'd expect from a white writer at the time, even if it's probably not strictly accurate. we never do learn bromden's real first name, since the other patients and employees at the hospital only ever call him by the racist nickname "chief", but maybe this is part of how he's been kept in these oppressive institutions for long enough that he doesn't even remember his own name, only being left with his white mother's surname that was bestowed on him to further distance him from his father's culture - but i could be being too generous again. still, the book is definitely concerned with the real-life oppression of indigenous tribes by the us government and paralleling it with the oppression faced by bromden and the other patients in the institution, so it's not like kesey is unaware of the existence of racialized power dynamics in the world "outside". i don't know!

you might wonder what i did like and still do like about this book and it's easy for me to tell what the appeal was when i first read it: i was a neurodivergent kid in public high school who was in fact diagnosed but that didn't make things any easier for me because it just meant i had more scrutiny on me at all times, from condescending adults who didn't offer any meaningful help. and obviously my situation was nowhere near as bad as anything in the book - i've never been institutionalized, thank god - but i felt a lot of it on a deeper level. you know. i wasn't offended by the misogyny in some parts because i wasn't seeing myself as A Woman, i was seeing myself as an autistic person, because i faced ableism irl way more often than sexism and i just knew if i had lived back then i would have been in an asylum. subjected to electroshock "therapy", maybe even lobotomized when they couldn't figure out what else to do with me.

(i mean, i probably wouldn't have been. but when i was 14 i sure thought so. it's easy to be dramatic when you're 14-15 years old. i was also much more privileged than a lot of other neurodivergent kids, and in many ways was treated much better than other autistic kids in different demographics would ever be, but it's also easy not to think about people other than yourself when you're 14-15 years old.)

anyway i think this book also appealed to me because the narrator was genuinely mentally ill and that's a fact. the movie's more grounded approach probably wouldn't have worked with all the novel's literally hallucinatory scenes but i do feel like a big part of what was missing was the film shifting it over to almost solely mcmurphy's pov. aside from putting the focus back on a white guy it also makes the film feel like yet another "wrongfully incarcerated perfectly sane man" story, which is what so many asylum-based narratives get criticized for; the sympathetic/pov characters aren't allowed to be actually mentally ill, and anything they suffer in the asylum is wrong only because it's happening to a sane/neurotypical person who doesn't "deserve" it. there's some anti-psychiatry stuff in the book, which is a topic that definitely requires a lot of nuance today, but i think it comes down harder on the psychiatric abuse parts and it makes it clear that most of the characters in the hospital are there because they do have legit mental problems that society hasn't figured out how to adequately deal with yet. (well, i don't know if harding checked himself in because of homosexuality still being considered a mental illness that a lot of gay people at the time were trying to cure themselves of, or more for some kind of general anxiety thing; it's probably the former, but i don't think the book agrees that it's something unnatural and aberrant. i don't think?)

maybe the reason i connected with this book in particular is because i felt like most asylum-set stories focused on women also went hard on the "we're not really mentally ill, we're just too independent for our time and they don't like that so they brand us insane" themes. which i could never relate to. i never felt like i was being forced to fit a narrow standard of femininity as a girl, but i sure was acutely aware of my identity as an autistic person and how i was treated based on that. (while i definitely don't think one's own identity should be based on how much you're oppressed for it - that line of thinking leads down some very dangerous paths - i do think looking back this was kind of an "i'm probably nonbinary but i have homework to do so idrc about that right now" situation. or i could just be one of those cis women who doesn't really identify that strongly with womanhood. not that important to me tbh.) honestly if i wanted an early 60s novel about mental health and how the psych system failed people maybe i should have read the bell jar - alongside this one, not instead of it.

i guess what i'm trying to say here is that people connect with art for all sorts of reasons, and sometimes you find yourself loving a flawed piece of art because it was important to you at some time. you don't have to be able to relate to a story to appreciate it (obviously!) but it certainly can help when you're young and looking for something that resonates with your own experience. or even when you're not actively looking for it. also that it’s normal to feel insane when you’re a teenager.

i wouldn’t have expended this many words on this book if i didn’t still like it so much. would i recommend it? with caveats but honestly if you’re only familiar with the movie you should read it. the film does tone down a lot of the more troublesome elements discussed above; if anyone is turned off or actively dislikes the book because of those elements i would completely understand tbh. it’s why i also was inspired to write something justifying my fondness for it. not something you can enjoy uncritically but that’s okay. few things are.

now another inspiration for this post was me deciding to give the soundtrack of love in hate nation a listen right when i was in the middle of rereading cuckoo’s nest, but that’s another post entirely.