#but they never really offered a vision of the path forward; to their detriment

[arbitrarygreay]

So @mimeparadox and I were discussing PoI S5/S4B's problems, as you do, and one of the things that stood out was the way so many of the strong developments of the last few eps weren't allowed to breathe. This synthesized with several other percolating ideas into "what if the core thrust of S5 wasn't bringing various things to a conclusion, but about the developing transhumanist love story between Shaw and TM!Root" Boom. Shot to the arm for plot, character, and themes, while still having the space for the show's procedural requirements. (As well as continuing my running gag that PoI is actually Nolan/Plageman's Angel fixfic)

[rainbow-scarab]

This is my take on Asgore (with a healthy side of Chara).

Obligatory disclaimer that you are free to have your own take, and I enjoy seeing other takes! In the end he's just a fictional character, and people have all sorts of life experiences that lead them to different interpretations.

Also warnings for discussions of difficult subjects found in Undertale, such as suicide, guilt, grief, psychological trauma, death, war, genocide, etc.

Asgore rates pretty low on my scale of UT character morality XD Though I find him an interesting character.

Asgore has both good and bad points as anyone in UT. He's a gentle soul at heart who likes bringing joy to others. But he is very reluctant to wield responsibility. And I believe this inaction is what's behind most of his other negative points, especially when it comes to making decisions.

When Chara came to the Underground, there was renewed hope. Asgore called them "the future of humans and monsters". For a time they all were a happy family, Asgore, Toriel, Asriel, and Chara. Or mostly. Chara was a very troubled child.....

Chara and Asgore were close, as were the rest of the Dreemurrs to Chara. But I don't think they quite knew how to help Chara. Chara must have had such a horrible life among humans to hate them so much...and then just decide to leave where they would never return. They found a loving family, and loved monsterkind. But they were still quite disturbed and probably had a lot of self-hate, both for being human and for their problem behavior. Being designated "the future of humans and monsters", they may have felt a lot of pressure.....and took what actions they thought would help monsters. Already hating humans, and humans being the cause of the monsters' imprisonment underground, on top of the self-hate, killing themselves and going on to kill six more humans in pursuit of monster freedom would feel like the best way they could contribute to a family, and species, that they loved so dearly.

Though I don't think being designated "the future of humans and monsters", a symbol of hope to the kingdom, ended up being healthy for Chara, I don't blame Asgore for this. The kingdom really needed that hope. And the Dreemurrs themselves would have been overjoyed both for that species-wide hope, and for the place Chara had in their family. It would be near impossible to be able to guess what Chara would ultimately do. It seems Chara did not open up about what had happened to them to Toriel and Asgore, and only partially to Asriel. But I think they would have been able to provide an environment of love and support to help Chara heal had they been there longer.

(Check out this post for a thorough analysis of Chara. It talks about and give evidence for Chara and Asgore's relationship. Also explains the "Chara is the narrator" theory I'll reference later)

But once Chara and Asriel took action, and both died.....Asgore became enraged. He declared war on humanity, completely reversing tone from before. Toriel left, and Asgore was alone.

In the years that followed, Asgore's declaration was followed. Monsters had great prejudice towards humans, and the royal guard kept a lookout for humans. Humans would either be killed by the guard, or Asgore himself.But at least by the time we get to him....he doesn't seem to be angry with humanity. He doesn't pretend that he will try to be friendly with Frisk the same as he does with other monsters, but...he wants to be. And he will give Frisk all the time they need before their fight. Doesn't even seem to care if it's years down the line. He just won't let Frisk pass in the end.

Once you fight and defeat him, he expresses how much he hates all the stuff about war, and just wishes for everyone to be happy and hopeful again. And perhaps...it could all just be over, and Frisk could leave the Underground with his soul. (More on this later)

To me, Asgore's big flaw....is not his declaration of war. Though that is definitely bad. One does not just declare their intention to not just kill humans to free monsters, but to destroy all of humanity, while in a position of power and influence...for that to be dismissed as nothing.

But....he was also very angry, for a very understandable reason. And....at some point....that anger subsided. And yet, he continued on the same path.

To me Asgore's biggest flaw is that he avoids responsibility and making decisions. The only time he ever is shown to make a significant decision...is his declaration of war, and it took extreme emotion for that to happen. But once back to more reasonable levels of emotion, he wouldn't even take action to reverse his own declaration. He felt duty-bound to kill humans, or else they would lose hope. Mmm...I'm not sure if that's just what he was telling himself to avoid decision, and perhaps the feared consequences of changing course were overblown. More on this in a minute.

In the past, it was Asgore and Toriel ruling together, even if Asgore seemed to the be official one in charge. As far as I can tell, they worked well together. Toriel on most of the details of running a kingdom, and Asgore, keeping up the spirits of monsterkind. Once Toriel was gone....no one really replaced her role.

(pic from Alarm Clock dialog)

Asgore did not develop the skills to run things well, and did not find anyone to help as far as I can tell. Undyne became head of the Royal Guard sometime after Toriel left (Undyne does not recognize her when they meet), though it's possible the Royal Guard itself appoints their own leadership. At the very least, Asgore appointed Alphys into the long-vacant position of Royal Scientist.

Though as seen by this bit of dialog from one of the neutral endings, merely having people in official positions doesn't mean his role as king is supposed to be over. Proper oversight would have certain made the amalgamate situation different anyways.

(There's the question of Sans possible working for Asgore. But since there's no hard evidence that I know of for this, I'm not really using this in my analysis)

Asgore still wants to get help. I think...to be unburdened from some or all of his responsibilities. Even if he doesn't know much about who he's asking help from. Like Frisk.

Ambassador is a huge responsibility to place on a young kid. Granted, there aren't other human choices, and even a child with no political skill would be a great symbol to bring humans and monsters together. And this child is the one who just saved everyone pretty much. Okay, I’ll grant him that.

Once defeated in a neutral run, he asks Frisk to take his soul and head to the surface. He would pass on the fate of monsters and humanity to someone he knows nothing about, not even their name, only that they came and defeated him in battle. But perhaps he just was...tiring of even trying anymore. Perhaps he was filled with guilt and grief and just...didn't want to live anymore. Okay. Spare him, and he entertains the thought of living a peaceful life together as a family, before Flowey kills him.

If you complete a neutral ending, then go back and defeat Asgore again on a neutral route, you get some special extra dialog. On choosing to spare him, Flowey doesn't come as quickly to kill him. He thinks again of life as a family, before dismissing it as fantasy. He identifies you with Chara (for having hope), with the prophecy of the angel, and then asks you to find a way to free monsters without really giving you a choice. ...again, he knows nothing about Frisk, their name, where they come from...only that they would give them mercy. And yet he is willing to make them in charge of the fate of all monsters. He kills himself, offering his soul up (before Flowey destroys this possibility).

(Side note...this or my analysis do not have the message that suicide is avoiding responsibility. I analyze his stated motives. It's quite possible that he had additional feelings of guilt and grief that led him to chose this. Even if not, it can't and shouldn't be generalized for other suicides)

Asgore is so reluctant to act...not even in genocide will he do anything special to save his people.

When you reach Asgore, clearly he has not heeded the warning and absorbed the human souls. I considered that perhaps Alphys did not call as she hates phone calls. But... there's a Queen Alphys ending, an aborted genocide ending. In it she pushes aside her fears and steps up, saving her people, implied that she hides them in the True Lab. I think this Alphys would have called.

He even gets a second warning here. But...he still tries to reason his way through, and speak with kindness. He is promptly killed.

In addition to his reluctance towards taking action, the other half of why Asgore wouldn't change...is that he was afraid that the people would lose hope.

...but I agree with Toriel. Through Asgore's lack of leadership, and continuation of the anti-human policies that came about when he was angry...the hope in the future that Asgore gave his people was dark.

In reality, though Asgore didn't want his people to lose hope...he himself had already lost hope. Perhaps that's why he couldn't bring true hope to his people.

In the Queen Toriel neutral ending, Asgore and the six human souls are gone. Toriel has instated a new policy to treat humans as friends. The people's hopes have taken a blow....but I don't think all is lost. It is possible to have a new vision and policy going forward, without Asgore or hoping for humanity's destruction.

In the King Papyrus ending, things are not quite as bright. There's a new policy to treat humans on a case by case basis. Papyrus tries to keep everyone working and fed. Sans does...a lot of paperwork. Productivity is up. But.....things are really hard. Papyrus is a great candidate to keep people's hopes up, kinda like Asgore (...Sans functions like Toriel too taking care of a lot of the details lol). But the Underground has lost many of their most beloved in this ending.

Yes.....I don't think Asgore, despite having lost hope, was only a detriment to monsterkind. His presence still brought some hope to the people, and his death was something to be mourned. But the loss of Asgore and his vision forward is just one factor in the outcome. Ultimately, I think Asgore's fears were not very true. If he changed course, away from his declaration of war...the people would adjust.

....Through all this.......

There was still one person still filled with Asgore's original hopes.

Chara never forgot Asgore's words as they lay dying. Even though they didn't heed these words....Asgore was an important figure to them in life.

Chara sticks by you the entire game, giving narration. In a few parts of the game, they share their memories with you, like when they fell into the Underground and were found by Asriel. And.....

When you die....they relay Asgore's own words to you. A message of hope to keep you going. A message that repeats to you the entire game, as many times as you need it upon death. Determination...the will to keep living...the resolve to change fate.

When you reach Asgore...he sees it. Maybe it doesn't mean anything special. A child may be full of hope for many reasons. I just kinda...want to believe that the same message of hope he gave to Chara...encouraged Frisk to make it this far, and it shines through on their face.

Through Frisk, Asgore's hopes come back to him. It's come full circle. He believes in a bright future again. A future with both humans and monsters.

You meet Asgore at the very end of the game. You've known him all of five minutes before Flowey shows up, and the final battle begins. Perhaps this is why he didn't have time to grow beyond this. Maybe, once on the surface, he'll work on himself further. Or not, I dunno, he stayed the same for a long time. We don't know.

Honestly....in the course of writing this my perspective on Asgore has changed. I expected to mostly write about his flaws, and why I thought of him poorly. But I didn't want to be unfair. And well...in Undertale.... When you dig a little deeper, you can find so much more about them than your assumptions and initial impressions. That the whole beauty of the game.

While I still think that Asgore is one of the most flawed people in the game...he has his good points too. And those actually turns out to be pretty important. Stay determined ❤

Screencaps from the Undertale Text Project (the work of squishing many textboxes in one image done by me)

P.S. One of the funnier lines in the game to me:

Thank you for reading!

[graeme-from-it]

The Trolling of The Scottish Resistance...

Posted on April 25th 2017 on the Scottish Resistance Facebook page - I’ll just leave this here :-) 

THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT BY NEIL MACKAY IS VERY IMPORTANT. THE YES MOVEMENT GROUPS HAVE BEEN INFILTRATED. THE SCOTTISH RESISTANCE IS UNDER CONSTANT ATTACK FROM AN INFILTRATOR WHO CLAIMED TO BE PART OF OUR GROUP BUT NEVER REALLY WAS BUT WE HAVE GATHERED LOTS OF INFO ON HIM AND SOON WE WILL RELEASE FULL DETAILS & EXPOSE HIM. PLEASE READ NEIL'S STATEMENT ABOUT ALL UNDER ONE BANNER.

The undernoted statement is from Neil Mackay Founder of All Under One Banner

The following statement is made by me in my role as the founder of All Under One Banner (AUOB), as the named organiser for the previous Six AUOB Independence Marches and as a current and ongoing AUOB group member. The statement made below I am compelled to make to inform the Independence movement and the general public of the background goings-on in respect of AUOB’s involvement with Core Security towards our 3rd June March for Independence. This statement is by me and me alone and is based upon my direct experience of events.

First let me set the background. On the 30th July last year Scotland had a highly successful and vibrantly peaceful 8,000 strong Independence March (number 6) as organised and made manifest by AUOB.

In the weeks after the March Glasgow City Council (GCC) called a de-brief meeting citing a number of concerns and issues as to the day’s proceedings- even though GCC were known to have turned off the George Square webcam as the mighty Procession entered the location.

Fundamentally GCC were and still are highly threatened by the Independence movement as currently the council is run by British (Scottish) Labour and as such they viewed the Impressive March as a direct ideological threat to them. As a result of this Political bias GCC sent me a letter stating that I had failed in my duties as named organiser and that should I submit a notification for a public procession again in the City of Glasgow it would be passed to a Committee which GCC argued would be advised to disallow a Procession organised by myself- even though there were never any arrests or offences committed by any participants and no anti- social behaviour committed whatsoever. Furthermore GCC put a restrictive Security condition against AUOB as an organisation stating that:

‘…..ALL STEWARDS will be accredited and sourced from professional stewarding companies’

Now for the greater good of the Independence cause in January of this Year I decided to sign off the active application that I had submitted for the 3rd June March (which was then set to be 29th April but subject to the availability of parks down the line the date was changed and changed for the better now as only 5 days before the General Election on 8th June) and one of the AUOB group came forward to be the named organiser for this next event. I made this decision solely so as to not give GCC what they wanted which was a long drawn out saga of an application with the Council delaying approval with their politically biased bureaucratic nonsense to the detriment of the movement.

Now not long before this development AUOB received a message from a person called Barbara McLaughlin, who purported to be an Independence supporter and who said she had a good friend who owned his own Security Company, this man is called Tony Hendry of Core Security. Even though we had circumvented the council with the first of their obstacles (me as named organiser) the discriminatory security condition as detailed above remained applicable to AUOB as an organisation regardless, so when I received this news and after discussing with the group I called Tony Hendry in December 2016 and we made an arrangement to meet up after the new year around mid-January.

Upon this meeting Tony presented his Solution to the problem, that he as a Professional Security trainer would train up the volunteers we would ingather and as such this would comply with the Councils strict condition. Tony said he was giving his time ‘Free of charge’ yet the cost of training each Volunteer would be £20 per head plus VAT meaning £24 billed to AUOB per person trained. Tony made it very clear several times that he was an Independence supporter, a statement that has been since put to the test and exposed as utter nonsense in the weeks that have followed. The plan was that we would have hundreds of Volunteers trained and led by Tony and some of Core’s professional Stewards we would be the best organised Procession ever etc etc etc.

Now, considering all options at the time this seemed a good proposal and as a group we rolled with it, viewing it as a solution to the main obstacle that GCC had put in our path. What followed was several weeks of Volunteers training at Core Security’s premises at Charing Cross on Wednesday evenings however within a couple of weeks of the sessions being underway Tony and Barbara (who was now involved as the Core Security admin helper- responding to emails on the AUOB email account as a delegated task) were getting significantly frustrated at the lack of Volunteers that were coming through the training program and the reason that has come to light for this is that it is now perceptible they had a big vision of making a lot of money out of the AUOB on and the Independence movement and even though classes were running weekly it just wasn’t enough for Tony, the pound signs spinning in his eyes driving him on to continually demand immediate action to increase numbers of volunteers. Over and above this AUOB was being invoiced by Core Security on a weekly basis, piling debt upon a grass-roots organisation with pressure to pay being a regular occurrence.

Meanwhile in reality, the Independence movement had come forward with a great number of volunteers however it was detectable to me that the reason the movement were not coming forward in their hundreds and hundreds was that the movement did not deeply support the strategy that we were taking which was full compliance with the council’s discriminatory condition and involving a Corporate Security Company; some of whose professional stewards were ‘Unionists’ and would be such on the day of the March. This was also proven by the fact that we launched a crowdfunder to raise funds to pay for the security costs of the event and although a great number of people donated the project flat-lined so I decided to cancel the crowdfunder half way into its term- and might I add not one penny was ever received by AUOB as it had to reach its target and didn’t manage to so no pledges were in the end taken or received.

Nevertheless we continued with the sessions until it equally became clear to me that Tony Hendry had a much more sinister agenda. Not only was he intent on making a lot of money out of the Independence movement but that he wanted ever increasing control and influence over AUOB as an organisation. Tony Hendry offered AUOB his premises to hold weekly group meetings which began to happen and even offered to lend AUOB a four figure sum of money to which I said we must refuse. All in all from my perspective the boundaries between who AUOB was and who Core Security was were becoming blurred and hazy, with both Tony and Barbara positioning themselves as active members not just of Core Security as the Sub-contracted Security company but as AUOB group members in their own right. Moreover Tony had made several attempts to apply media censorship to the AUOB Facebook page; trying to gain ever increasing influence over the media content of a very successful Indy page. This was a red flag to a bull for me and this was the alarm bell that made me smell a Rat.

As such I raised these serious concerns with my fellow group members and this culminated in a meeting being scheduled, at Cores premises. I knew I was walking into a Kangaroo court, a set-up, as Tony sat there with some of his members of Core security alongwith other members of the AUOB group also present. What followed was an attempt by Tony Hendry to completely discredit me in front of everyone concerned. His verbal assault was impressive and constant but I held my own and refuted his list of unsubstantiated allegations in his place of business power. Tony said he had ‘looked into me’ and that I was a ‘bad influence on the group’ and that I alone was to blame for the lack of volunteer stewards; that I have done ‘absolutely nothing’ towards the event and AUOB as an organisation, amongst many many other direct nasty comments aimed at eliminating me.

What followed next was that Tony told me to handover control of AUOB Social media over to the group (i.e. him) to which I steadfastly refused. Tony’s response to this was that if I had anything to do with AUOB then he would have nothing to do with it and would write a Letter to GCC terminating his company’s involvement towards the 3rd June March. The meeting ended as a stalemate in that I walked away rightfully not rescinding control to such a man, with in my mind clear Anti-Independence agenda, and Tony walking away stating that he would withdraw Core Security altogether.

What followed was a meeting with GCC two days later by the AUOB group including Tony as the security provider which he did not mention a word of this to the Council and said that all would be well on the day- even though I was and always will be clearly involved in AUOB which again looked strange to me in its contradiction compared to what he said only two days before.

However I had thereafter come to the conclusion that Tony Hendry and Core were definitely going to pull out of the vent at one point that was certain to me. What followed and what has happened in the last three weeks I will now reveal.

Barbara McLaughlin and Tony Hendry covertly set up a Facebook page called Indyfest and created a Fundraising event to raise funds to pay themselves. Now as I refused to publicise it on AUOB and as such the event was not being officially endorsed they decided to change strategy. Next they set up a Fake AUOB page. They took the official AUOB profile picture and cover graphic along-with the page description, website link etc and created a brand new page holding this page out to be All Under One Banner and they then made the fundraising ceilidh event an ‘AUOB’ event hoping that this would give it the endorsement they wanted it to have. I discovered all of this through a great many trusted friends that I have online and I was sent all evidence of this and who was behind it. All of this evidence was then passed on to the other members of the AUOB group who subsequently challenged Barbara and Tony at the next meeting that took place (last Wednesday), to which both of them categorically denied it was them. In the days that followed more evidence was amassed and passed onto the AUOB group until I received a text on Saturday informing me that Core Security have now pulled out of the event altogether; surprise surprise as they had been rumbled.

Since the weekend much information has come into my possession outlining the extent of the Core Security attempted takeover of AUOB, including that for the last couple of weeks Tony Hendry and Barbara McLaughlin have been constantly requesting that the AUOB Facebook page be deleted/taken down- to which the group categorically refused, even though the powers to do this rest only with myself and one other trusted admin who has been on the page since the 2014 beginning with me.

Moreover I have come to find out that Tony Hendry has written a big letter to GCC not only pulling Core Security out of the march but discrediting the entire event and the Independence movement to boot. He is also recorded as of saying he is going to go to the press and let the press know his (Negative Anti-Independence) story. Now at a time when Scotland is facing two important elections on the 4th May and 8th June respectively it must be questioned why someone who says personally he supports Independence would attempt to do such a hatchet job on his departure when if he really wanted to leave he would leave quietly? It must be asked why Tony and Barbara thought it acceptable to plagiarise AUOB? Or why they are posting on Social media in a smear campaign against me whilst discrediting the entire event and the movement in equal measure?

In my opinion Tony Hendry and Barbara McLaughlin etc are at the very least egotistical Money driven charlatans who saw an opening to get involved with AUOB to make lots of money from it and elevate their status, people who had a clear agenda to take over the group and the page and bring it under their ownership and when this wasn’t happening they set up a spoof page and tried to sabotage the official site by unsuccessfully persuading AUOB group members to delete it altogether. At the very worst Tony Hendry and Barbara McLaughlin are stooges, infiltrators sent in by the authorities in an attempt to get control over AUOB and to destroy the activist group so as to ensure the 3rd June Independence March and all consecutive AUOB Marches do not happen, with GCC placing a condition in place that gave an opening to such fraudsters who were wolves in sheep’s clothing as sent in with a job to do.

Common sense tells me it is the former money making takeover attempt which is applicable but I have an open mind and will not rule out the latter considering how important it is for the British state to keep Scotland locked within the UK, especially in such highly charged political times as we currently live in.

So fortunately no matter whom Tony Hendry, Barbara McLaughlin and Core security actually are they have not succeeded in taking over AUOB.

I want to give everyone my absolute assurance that no matter what transpires in the coming weeks from GCC the 3rd June March for Independence is going ahead. AUOB is a brilliant organisation full of dedicated and inspiring activists who will ensure that not only will we have more than enough Stewards and Security provisions in place for the March but that the event will run like clockwork and will be, as always, a Safe and peaceful family friendly event for young and old.

This Independence March and AUOB belongs to the People of Scotland and this is how they shall remain, and as such shall never be taken over by any group or individuals with ill intent toward the Cause and the people’s right to gather and take part in Public Processions in support of Scotland regaining Independence; this is the Peoples March.

I for one feel a lot better shedding light on what I have been carrying about with me for many weeks and I feel proud to have served the movement by holding firm and not handing AUOB over to a bunch of charlatans who would have one way or another destroyed the event and the credibility of the Independence movement for sure.

I want to thank everyone for their ongoing support in the coming weeks.

SORE ELBO