#but the Tony standom is just asking for it at this point

[groovycrusadeperson]

@one-piece-of-harry

Because I’m exactly this petty and done with the Tony standom -

“1) So you just selectively fucking forgot that little morbid slideshow...”

That little morbid slideshow…where the Avengers stopped an alien invasion and then Hydra from killing what…2 million people? The slideshow where literally the only calamity that can be blamed on the Avengers is Ultron and that is squarely on Tony Stark and Bruce Banner? 

The slideshow that has literally nothing to do with the fact that Charlie Spencer’s mother held Tony Stark, and only Tony Sark, responsible for her son’s death but he went to the Avengers and blithely blamed them all for it as if they hadn’t told him that Ultron was a bad idea? As if the blame were equally distributed somehow for that boy’s death?

“2) ...Maybe if captain asshole actually shared his information instead of waiting until he was literally about to steal a plane...”

Tell me…what exactly was it about the airport that turned Tony’s brain to mush so that he was unable to listen to “Captain Assshole” at that point? What great stress was he undergoing here that he was unable to listen to reason? 

Because Natasha could. So why couldn’t Tony? And why couldn’t he, after he’d found out about the five WS, approach the UN instead of fucking off all on his own? If Ross was the UN sanctioned authority dealing with the Avengers then why did Tony, after harping about oversight and accountability, blatantly violate Ross’ orders by going to Siberia? Why didn’t he turn himself in to prove how accountable he is instead of concealing his crime afterwards? He was very willing to turn TeamCap in after all.

“3) Wow. Bucky straight up killed his fucking mom and you want to reduce that to “manpain”? seriously? Jesus” 

Wow…Tony, in his right mind,  straight up tried to kill Bucky and refused to stop at any point though he knew that Bucky was brainwashed and therefore innocent of Tony’s mother’s murder 25 years ago and you’re trying to defend that? Jesus.

“4)  IM SCREAMING what lethal weapon??  Holy shit are you for real??...”

…hey do you understand what a kill mode is? Do you understand that a weapon which has a kill-mode can in fact kill people and is therefore lethal? Do you understand that?  

“5)  Steve Rogers. - Never actually apologizes for not telling Tony about his parents... and considering that whole letter was basically steve jerking himself off to how great he is...”     

“I’m sorry I hurt you. I thought I was protecting you but now I see that I was only protecting myself” just means “I’m sorry for that action because it hurt you. I have actually no excuse because while I was fooling myself into thinking it was the right thing to do, turns out it was just selfish. No excuses” 

The rest of the letter is Steve telling Tony that as far as the Accords are concerned he understands where Tony is coming from and him trying to explain to Tony where he’s coming from.

All of this other bullshit your woobifier fandom just read into that letter all on your own because you love fapping to all the imagined slights and persecution your fave is facing.

And considering he just attempted to murder Steve’s closest friend, that letter was more than he deserved even if Steve had actually lied instead of just being in denial himself as is canon.

“Tony Starks entire fucking character revolves around responsibility...Can you watch a fucking Iron Man movie for once in your goddamn life? Just once?”

Have you ever tried watching anything after IM1-3 for once in your goddamn life? Just once? There are these three movies called Iron Man and Friends: AoU, Iron Man and Friends: CW and Iron Man and Child: SMH where all Tony Stark does is shirk responsibility.

They include such gems as – “that was never my life”, “how about I mess with this dangerous alien weapon I know nothing about and create AI”, “how about I sign these accords that in no way address the reparations due to Sokovia from me or hold me accountable for Ultron or literally anything because I have now retired”, “how about I kidnap this minor and smuggle him into a different continent to participate in a potentially dangerous situation”, “how about I go against the Accords and other existing laws in general and enter a country unauthorized”, “how about I never mention it to anyone” and also “how about I blatantly go against the law and invite this minor to be part of a special task force that he cannot legally consent to being part of”.  So much responsibility and accountability.

The only time he ever says “my fault” to the team is when he’s trying to manipulate someone into doing something or giving him something (first the team and then Sam). But he never really seems to do anything productive about things being his fault or change his behaviour.

“...one of the above urls is literally @teameveryonebutironman and you think that they have anything unbiased or worthy to say”

Do you really think that you, an especially rabid Tony stan from what I’ve seen of you so far, really have locus to dismiss anyone’s opinions on grounds of bias? Really?

Oh also, you know what’s actually gross? Refusing to listen when people are trying to tell you why shipping a pairing solely based on racist headcanons and stereotypes is shitty. And dismissing their concerns just because you so desperately want see your woobified fave get coddled and cossetted by a King who actually has better things to do and better people to give a shit about. That’s gross. Not someone shitting on your overexposed fave.      

[essayofthoughts]

I wanted to ask about your thoughts on tony stark? not sure if u refer to urself as an anti but id love to hear about ur thoughts on my fav boy. I recently reblogged ur post about how tony gets leeway and wanda gets hate and i sort of "reviewed" it but it was more like commentary. to me, it didnt seem like you hated tony but I just wanted to learn more about ur stance on him, if ur up for it :)

For reference, the meta mentioned can be found Here. I’m glad you found it interesting, it’s a personal favourite of the metas I’ve done. I’m afraid that I honestly cannot keep track of your commentary because of the lack of line breaks. It may be that I’m tired but the lack of paragraph separation and capitalisation mean it kind of blurs together for me.  I’m sorry.

As for Tony...

I don’t care. I’m not an anti (rather like standom I stay away from antidom as well) but I don’t find him interesting or engaging and I think the fandom has overhyped him and excused him for things he really shouldn’t be excused for, all while condemning other characters (Team Cap in general, Wanda and Steve in particular) for equal or far lesser things. Plus the way the fandom loves to villainise any character that isn’t Tony. The amount of nonsensical villainisation and just... pure bashing from Tony Stans I’ve seen in this fandom means that while I’ve tried to be neutral about Stark I did at one point come very close to hating him - a fictional damn character - before AIW came out and I decided I was pretty much done with Marvel and the MCU fandom. 

I’d like to make clear here and now that the reason I came close to hating him was less about the character as he is in the films and more about how completely obnoxious and at times utterly awful (there’s a reason I call them virulent) I found his fans to be.

Here’s my thoughts about Tony: he had the potential to be interesting but he’s never had a character arc so much as a roundabout; he resets every time. He also doesn’t really show lasting, meaningful remorse for things. He expresses guilt but then tries to find ways to fob it off on others (getting the Avengers to sign the Accords when he’s retired because he personally was blamed for something, not the Avengers as a whole), or to fob it off entirely (“This was never my life” he says to Wanda and Pietro who have suffered hugely due to what he uncaringly allowed to happen). When he does accept blame he often ends up making a bigger problem in his attempt to “fix” it, which inevitably leads to his character roundabout cycle.

He talks shit to children. He dismisses and demeans Peter’s efforts with his own initial suit. It takes not only a bomb going off and hitting him but also Yinsen’s own story for him to go “Oh no maybe selling weapons is bad” when he’s forty damn years old and maybe you can excuse some of that because he grew up in a weaponmaking family, but that he then decided that selling them was the evil and that it was fine if the weapons were in his hands -

He doesn’t see the illogic that if his judgement was so flawed in the past how on earth can he trust it’ll be good enough now to wield deadly weapons against civilians as a private citizen.

But oh well, he’s a cis white American guy he can do whatever the hell he likes, I guess. Fandom certainly seemed to think so.

The thing is, he could have been interesting. He could have been, if not good, at least a character playing with some fun questions. The idea of good-guy Tony Stark the fandom so loves has a lot of potential. I enjoy reading fic where Tony is characterised as the films seemed to intend him to be seen as (Infinite Coffee & Protection Detail by owlet does that very well) but the problem is, that isn’t the Tony we get in the films.

The Tony we get in the films is an unremitting arsehole and while he makes gestures of growth he never really changes. At the end of every film he basically resets - I’ve meta’d on Tony’s character roundabout before.

And I just don’t find that engaging. The obsessive hatred some of his fans have for any character they perceive as wronging Tony puts me off further. The outright hate some of them throw at characters I do like and I do find engaging such as Wanda makes me wonder what it is in people that like Tony that cause them to be … like that. To be hateful over fictional characters and bullies to fans of the same series as them.

I have to wonder if the way that Tony quips and insults his way through conversations with uncaring callousness makes them think that’s okay. If they relate to that, and to his lack of apologies, because they don’t want to give apologies or have to grow or change or reconsider themselves. 

A character being awful or an arsehole or a quippy clever bastard can be interesting. There are some great characters out there out there, both antagonists and protagonists. There are some straight up fantastically awful characters out there that I find engaging (Hannibal Lecter, Anna Ripley). There are complete dickwad characters out there that I find engaging (Blackadder. Hell, even Gilderoy Lockhart). There are quippy clever bastard characters out there that I find engaging (Percy de Rolo, Moist von Lipwig).

But Tony Stark isn’t one of them. Not to me. Tony Stark exists and that’s fine, but he doesn’t interest me and his fans have made me completely disinclined to watch any films he’s in, read any comics he’s in, or really engage in any areas of fandom where his stans are likely to be because it’s just. Boring and exhausting to me.

I love Wanda. I find other characters interesting. I don’t give a single solitary crap for Tony. 

Sorry dear. Probably not the answer you were hoping for!

[thehollowprince]

Another thing that destroys Tony is “Fem Coded” bs, is that Tony is a massive misogynist and shows a lot toxic masculine traits.

Oh, they know its bullshit. Everyone knows its bullshit. Its something they made up to try and claim some kind of imaginary "woke points" when asked why they like this character, rather than just admit they like the sarcastic asshole stereotype that's in most movies, or that they wanted to be dicked down by RDJ (🤮🤮🤮, but to each their own).

What's really insulting about the whole "female-coded" thing is that there are actual women in this franchise. Not a lot of them, but they're there! The whole point of coding a character is because the industry or studio or narrative doesn't allow for that specific sex/minority/religion/whatever in the story. That's the reason Disney has so many queer-coded villains, like Ursula, Jafar and Scar (and others), because the film industry wouldn't allow for any direct mention of LGBT+/QUEER characters, let alone in a positive light. Same idea applies here. We have actual female superheroes, some of whom who have gone through the mental, physical and sexual abuse they like to attribute to Tony to make him more sympathetic, but no care is given to those characters.

Issues with Carol Danvers/Captain Marvel aside, the Tony standom doesn't even give the inclination that they know she exists, which is odd because she's everything Tony is in terms of personality: cocky and arrogant and a part of a militaristic society that breaks away when she sees how wrong it is. And she is an actual woman so you'd think more of Tony's (majority female-led) fanbase would love her. Same with Nat or Wanda, both of whom underwent experimentation and trauma from a young age, but radio silence from the Tony stans unless they need a convenient villain to blame all of Tony's problems on.

I don't remember who said it, but the fact that the first IM movie was made back when Bush was still president is a large factor in his ongoing popularity. If that movie had been made today, there would have been mass protests against it. What's even more troubling is that so many of these Tony stans that I've encountered or who spout that "female-coded" rhetoric are either my age or younger, so Millenial to Gen Z. You go to their blogs and they're actively protesting against mega corporations or American imperialism or police brutality, but then they turn right around and worship a middle-aged billionaire war-profiteer with absolutely no sense of the irony in that.

And all of that's not even getting into how he treats women. Pepper is introduced as his maid/mother, having to throw out his one-night-stands and basically pick up after him like a child, all while practically running parts of the company because he couldn't be bothered. The remarks he made about the journalist in the second movie. The very first thing he does is google underwear photos of Natasha not even five minutes after meeting her.

There is so much wrong with the "Tony is secretly female-coded" argument and if we were to tackle everything, we'd be here for days.

[elcorhamletlive]

“mean/ungrateful avengers who leave tony despite everything tony provided for them!” is one of the top most annoying terrible tony standom discourses

like, even aside from the fact that that you can’t buy people’s affection and loyalty with material things, that’s not how friendship works, the biggest flaw with this argument is that it assumes that team cap choosing to not sign the accords is a PERSONAL betrayal AGAINST TONY, which makes literally no fucking sense. 

tony didn’t create the accords. he chose to sign them and then hoped/tried to get others to do the same, and when that failed, he felt hurt, yeah, but that’s not on the other avengers?? like, the accords are laws that are bound to affect enhanced individuals’ lives significantly (also, it significantly affects individuals who are actually enhanced like steve or wanda way more than it affects tony, who at this point, can just take off the armor and become a regular person). it affects every avenger on a personal level, and therefore, the way they respond to it is completely unrelated to any kind of friendship or loyalty towards tony.

like. there is something to be said about the way in which tony shows affection towards people with material gifts, about how this is his way to tell people he cares because he’s not good with his feelings or words. tony is lonely and he wants to be loved and he doesn’t know how to properly ask for that, so he shoves people with stuff, which showcases both his terrible people skills and his extreme generosity. that’s true. 

but it’s impossible to have a conversation about this legitimately interesting/tragic character trait if you base it on some bizarre debt system that basically states that anyone who got stuff from tony needs to agree with him 100% on every stance forever, otherwise they’re “snakes”. it makes no sense, it actually has no basis in canon (tony never partakes on this super petty and ridiculous attitude his stans apparently want him to have), and it weakens the entire narrative to “poor tony”, which is apparently the only conclusion every single meta on his character is ever allowed to come up with on this goddamn fandom.

[aion-rsa]

What If…? Episode 7 Ending Explained

https://ift.tt/eA8V8J

This article contains spoilers for Marvel’s What If…? episode 7.

With a couple exceptions (the Captain Carter and Dr. Strange episodes, to be specific), Marvel’s What If…? series has had a fairly consistent system to its endings. They would end the story on one note and then tack on a cliffhanger scene that would subvert it. T’Challa as Star-Lord ends on a happy note? Well, Peter Quill and Ego might bring the end of the universe. Loki rules Earth? Well, here are some heroes who say otherwise. Spider-Man hopes to save the world from the zombie apocalypse? Well, here’s Zombie Thanos waiting for him.

This week, we have the seventh episode of nine, “What If… Thor Were an Only Child?” After a four-episode streak of some of the darkest stuff the series could give us, we’re rewarded with some kind of unholy mix of a superhero adventure, a 1980s party comedy, and a Looney Tunes cartoon. In a universe where Loki wasn’t adopted by Odin, Thor becomes a party-obsessed god. It’s a lighthearted romp where even the threat of SHIELD dropping nukes is treated with levity.

In the final moments, Party Thor shows a different kind of humility by going to Jane Foster’s trailer and asking her out on a date. Uatu the Watcher looks on, narrating about how the two lived happily ever after, only to be cut off by something that surprises even him.

Infinity Ultron

A group of Ultron drones appears before Thor in the desert. They step aside to reveal the main Ultron, who not only has the face of Vision, but ALL SIX INFINITY STONES. Now, yes, that is enough to ruin any hero’s day, but what does that have to do with Party Thor?

This isn’t like the other cliffhangers. At this point, there’s nothing to suggest that Thor’s wacky exploits and the lack of a scheming Loki would lead to the creation of Ultron and the gathering of the Infinity Stones. That’s because this Ultron isn’t from Thor’s universe.

The initial promotional poster for What If…? revealed various characters from various episodes. Captain Carter, Marvel Zombies, Spider-Man with Dr. Strange’s cape, etc. One figure that caught the eye of some was a hybrid of Ultron and Vision with the six Infinity Stones. The indication was pretty straightforward: in the events of Avengers: Age of Ultron, Ultron would have succeeded in putting his consciousness into the red, vibranium body. There would be no Jarvis-minded Vision. There would be no more Avengers. Ultron would be victorious.

Now, this does bring into question how Ultron could obtain the Soul Stone. Perhaps he sacrifices Tony Stark, adding a disturbing layer to their already bizarre relationship and adding to the many deaths of Iron Man in the multiverse. Maybe he just lets someone else get it and steals it from them. Force Wanda to sacrifice Pietro and then overpower her.

Whatever the case is, this version of Ultron – whose story has yet to be told – is revealed to be more than a universal threat. He is now a multiversal threat, showing up to conquer Party Thor’s reality.

What this ending means is that we’re heading to the What If…? Endgame.

The Exiles

While downplayed a bit, the initial trailers and promotional footage suggested that at some point, there would be a big crossover. The iconic cinematic shot of the Avengers posing in a circle was intercut with some different heroes posing similarly in a devastated city. While the same trailer already established the T’Challa version of Star-Lord, the other three (Black Panther, Gamora, and Thor) were not as well-explained at the time.

There was also a quick moment of the sickly Strange Supreme meeting Captain Carter. If it wasn’t for the two literally sharing screentime in one shot, you could be forgiven for thinking it was two separate pieces of footage and dialogue slapped together.

The mid-season trailer showed more of the crossover, with it being apparent that the heroes of the multiverse are up against the Ultron army. It seems that there’s a representative from each episode involved:

Episode 1: Captain Carter.

Episode 2: T’Challa Star-Lord.

Episode 3: Black Widow.

Episode 4: Strange Supreme.

Episode 5: Marvel Zombies, presumably summoned by Strange to fight the Ultron drones.

Episode 6: Killmonger Black Panther.

Episode 7: Party Thor.

Episode 8: Gamora dressed as Thanos and wielding his two-sided blade.

Episode 9: Ultron Vision.

It should also be noted that the same trailer also includes a shot of Pepper Potts and Shuri running side-by-side, suggesting a follow-up of sorts to Killmonger’s storyline in the sixth episode.

What If…? Episode 8

As of right now, we don’t know for sure what the eighth episode is all about, but a Lego tie-in may have tipped us off months back. One of the What If…? Lego sets is based on Iron Man ending up on Sakaar, including figures for Tony Stark, Valkyrie, and the Watcher.

As the rumors go, supposedly the eighth episode will be based on Iron Man not making it through the portal during the climax of Marvel‘s Avengers. Instead, he drifts through space until finding himself on Sakaar. Somehow, this is supposed to give us an incarnation of Gamora who dresses and fights like Thanos.

Did Black Widow Really Die in Episode 3?

The least bizarre character to pop up in the upcoming crossover is Black Widow, who seems to be her normal self. She appears to be the version from “What If… the World Lost Its Mightiest Heroes?” where Hank Pym went around killing all the would-be Avengers. If you notice, all the other characters showing up are those who survived their episodes. Even Strange Supreme was alive, albeit the only thing existing in his universe.

The last we saw of Black Widow, she was being beaten up by Hank Pym. She was dragged into the darkness while trying to warn Nick Fury via phone call, but that was it. Afterwards, they treated it like she was dead and they showed a casket among the others in the epilogue.

At the same time, we never did see a body. Nor would we need one, considering Hulk went full Stay Puft Marshmallow Man and he got a casket.

My theory here is that Hank Pym didn’t actually kill her. Or at least, he thought he did, similar to how he thought his wife was dead. He could have shrunk Black Widow excessively, thinking that she was being reduced into nothingness. In actuality, she could be hanging out in the Quantum Realm, ready to be plucked away to fight the Ultrons. Maybe even capable of returning to her own Earth to help fight Loki.

The Source Material

Outside of Marvel Zombies, this season of What If…? has been nothing but original stories. They haven’t been trying to copy the comics until now. While the details are different, the finale appears to be based on a miniseries from 2014 called What If…? Age of Ultron.

As the Age of Ultron comic event featured Wolverine traveling through time, the What If…? miniseries showed that it caused dire ripples through the multiverse. Random people would die of aneurysms from Wolverine’s journeys and the stories would be based on those nexus events. Like how Captain America dying of an aneurysm while being frozen would have led to a world with Frank Castle taking up the mantle.

The first issue featured a world conquered by Ultron. The final issue had this version of Ultron go to war with heroes from the other stories. The most notable was an incarnation of Black Widow from a world where Thor died and she ended up having to lift Mjolnir to save Earth from the Midgard Serpent.

Could that be the payoff? In the movies, Black Widow politely declined trying to lift the hammer. There would be no enchantment on Party Thor’s hammer to stop the unworthy, but if this Black Widow can return to her home world alive, there is an enchanted Mjolnir just sitting there, waiting to be lifted.

You know, the mid-season trailer does show Black Widow wielding both Captain America’s shield and Hawkeye’s bow. Why not go for the trifecta?

If you want to dig deeper into What If…?, please consider subscribing to Marvel Standom on the Den of Geek YouTube channel, where we dish out weekly episodes on all the new Marvel TV series, trailers and movie releases. Can’t stand our faces? That’s fair! You can listen to Marvel Standom on Spotify and Apple, too.

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[tiredoftonkies-blog]

If I see one more fic where Tony's suffering's the focus and everyone else is protecting him from that inconsiderate lout Steve in the "Stony" tag, I'm gonna flip. They could have slapped on a "Not Steve Friendly" tag but no. They reiterate over and over that only Tony has a claim to suffering and the rest don't. And then the stans get upset that others are less than sympathetic to Tony's suffering, when they've been beyond cruel to Steve. I'm at a point that's "Tony can suck it, I'm done".

i’m curious, was this brought on by a certain fic, or are you more talking about tony standom’s general tendency to reiterate that sort of message?

i know exactly what you mean though; i know i have a lot of trouble feeling sympathetic toward tony if it feels like the other characters are being punished excessively in comparison and he’s ~the victim.~ i always end up skimming over his sadness and looking for anything to indicate the fic is more balanced than tony-sympathetic parts might seem, then i’ll go back and reread if it seems like it isn’t going to a tony woobiefest, but it’s still harder for me to muster strong feelings of sympathy toward tony. the endless ~poor tragic tony~ fics have left their mark lol

as ludicrous as the amount of “not steve friendly”-tagged fics in the goddamn stony tag are, i vastly prefer scrolling past that tag to finding a summary that sounds promising, reading the fic, and surprise! the fic is about how steve is the only character who needs to feel guilty and tony basically did nothing wrong!

honestly, i barely browse the stony tag anymore. there’s this one author in particular who seems to flood the tag with endless one-sided stony or past stony fics that are about tony getting together with some dude he’s never met in canon, and i got so sick of seeing that every time i looked through the tag on my phone. i came close to leaving an aggressive comment asking them to quit spamming the tag lol, and that was pretty much when i realized i’d probably be able to enjoy the pairing more if i didn’t look through the tag, since most people who post in the stony tag these days seem to be tony stans more than anything else

i only follow one stony blog now and i rarely browse the tag, i just stick to fic recs these days. i keep meaning to try some of the ao3 tricks to blacklist without using an extension, but then there are a lot of untagged stony fics that are biased against steve and it’s... so incredibly frustrating to stumble into one of those, ugh. especially if the author refuses to acknowledge their bias no matter how politely it may have been pointed out to them