#but so is siberian husky for mushing purposes

[beansnpeets]

Yesterday we took Rollei for a solo walk in the evening. In the yard he is selective about who he is okay with and who he would like to take a round out of, but outside the yard he is much more outgoing. Some of the same people he is cool with outside the yard he is NOT okay with in the yard. We stopped on the street to talk to our landlord and Rollei hopped right up into the bobcat he was doing some work in and was friendly and happily took some pets, but if our landlord came into our yard without us around he would be MAD. The other morning there were some hydro guys on the street and same thing, happy to take pets and they even gave him a treat they had in their truck. But on our walk yesterday there was a young family walking, the man was a big guy and obviously didn't really know how to approach a strange dog. Rollei did not like this guy's vibes at all and was immediately on the defensive. It seems to be whoever tries to get his attention the most he dislikes. Whenever someone makes eye contact with him before approaching or makes noises at him, he just hates that. The guy tried to pet him, but put his hand over his head and Rollei growled and when we backed away he did try snapping at the guy. But we already know how to give space and manage a dog with aggression, so this is honestly not a challenge for us anymore. Having Oscar for a first dog has been really helpful. He has been such a challenge that everything else feels easy in comparison.

I'm not mad about it, tbh. He's friendly enough that it's not an issue, like Oscar's aggression is, but he's aloof enough that I trust he would keep me safe from someone if I needed him to. And ngl I've learned that that's what I like in a dog. It definitely changes what breeds I think will fit in the future. It's kinda funny the trial and error in finding what works.

[darkwood-sleddog]

okay I'm not involved in the ~dog community~ (my own dog is a poorly trained shelter mutt), but I'm really interested in the topic of crossbreeding. Do you have any resources you would recommend for learning more about the topic? Or any crossbreeding projects you think are especially interesting? Thanks!

Crossbreeding is the act of breeding two different types of dogs together (note I say types here because this practice outdates the modern idea of breeds).

I can’t provide you with a neat list of links to follow because crossbreeding is incredibly varied, much like the breeding of any animal. And I am really tired after battling Covid this week.

But above all I support responsible dog breeding and this can be achieved by both purebred breeders and cross breeders equally. The definition of what is a “responsible breeder” also makes things difficult because the definition of such will vary person to person. For me a responsible breeder utilizes all scientific and behavioral avenues available to them to best breed dogs that are: healthy both physically and genetically and temperamentally and physically sound for what they are bred to do. A responsible breeder (for me) is also supportive of the dogs they produce for the lifetime of those dogs which may include: taking the dog back if needed, mentoring puppy buyers, being knowledgeable about their community. Both purebred breeders and cross breeders can hit those responsibility goals (and they also can fail to hit them too just as equally).

Being in the mushing world I am exposed to many, many incredible cross bred and purpose bred non purebred dogs every day. Non purebred dogs win iditarod each year. Non purebred dogs dominate this sport and people have been mushing with and breeding and keeping pedigrees of these non purebred dogs as long if not longer than my own breed, the Alaskan Malamute.

In the UK Luchers, a sighthounds cross breed, is super popular and functional. In the southern United States bully dogs are often crossed with herding dogs and other bulky breeds to create good hog dogs (hogs are invasive in the US). Neither of these are trying to be breeds and the people that love these crosses would not want it that way.

Crossbreeding can also help create new breeds and is much how new breeds have been created in the past. Golden Retrievers, Doberman, Dogo Argentino are just a few that took distinct dog types and molded them into a breed before closing their studbooks to new blood. German Shepherds, Border Collies, Siberian Huskies are breeds that stem from non purebred landrace dogs that just existed as a type of dog and were later molded into modern breeds.

Crossbreeding can also help mitigate health issues that occur in purebred dogs. A huge majority of purebred dogs have closed studbooks. This means that no new blood that is unregistered with the breed club can enter. Breeds do sometimes open this closed book (my own breed the Alaskan Malamute did this in the 1950s to increase genetic diversity). Crossbreeding to fix health issues is usually called ‘outcrossing’ because the crossing is not done widely, but in a more targeted manner. A great example of this is LUA Dalmatians (a single non Dalmatian dog used) and the Bobtailed Boxer Program (really interesting look at how quickly type can be brought back).

In reality I love both purebred dogs and crossbred dogs. I think both serve the needs of the human population as what we need dogs for can be so varied from person to person. I also believe it is bad for populations to keep closed studbooks and I think every breed club should have outcross programs in development, especially those that are circling the drain with incredible health issues such as the Doberman.

I think it’s in poor taste for purebred folk to viscously hate cross bred dogs and their breeders just because some are not breeding responsibly. Irresponsible breeding happens plenty in purebred dogs and people need to stop acting like cross breeders are holding purebred folk at gunpoint and forcing them to buy a doodle.

[grison-in-space]

So one of the things that gets me about this is also that... Alaskan huskies aren't just any dog that can haul a sled quickly? They aren't even the only modern racing mushing breed! Eurohounds also exist, and while you can certainly get dogs with intermediate traits, there's a definite difference in type that clearly differentiates the dogs and their respective niches. You also have racing Siberian Husky lines still as well as the Alaskans, which seem to be thriving based on a recent hunt for racing Sibe kennels I went on to show a lady on the dog DNA Reddit sub the other day.

Besides, Alaskan Huskies are as genetically identifiable as any other dog breed; they're just not necessarily selected for physical consistency in coat color, ear shape, or head shape. Even if you are allowing theoretically unlimited outcrossing, selection for dogs that perform at a specific level in a specific way means that initial-stage crosses tend to get fed into the breeding pool through back crossing to parent breeds, such that you get limited introgression of new genes into the population. In practice, even without formal regulations and institutional control over outcrossing, breeders generally don't outcross without a plan for the offspring, and if the F2s aren't competitive relative to the original lines.... usually they never make it into the mainline breeding pool.

Bluntly, breeders breed to supply markets for their dogs. If there's no one who wants to purchase your Alaskan Husky/Shar Pei crosses because they're terrible pets, bite everything in sight, and can't move for shit... well, you can probably find some suckers to saddle the first couple of litters onto, but eventually your supply of puppies is going to outstrip local demand and you're going to have a whole bunch of dogs in your house, the keeping of which is extremely expensive in time, money, and effort, and you'll probably stop doing it or become a hoarding situation that requires intervention at that point. From a genetics long-run perspective, almost none of those Shar Huskies is going to stay intact around other Alaskan Huskies long enough to produce offspring that are competitive enough that someone keeps the dogs in the breeding population.

No individual breeder, unless they have dogs that are collectively viewed as valuable and high performing enough to generate substantial sustained demand for the dogs, is going to be able to swamp the communal gene pool single handedly. And if their dogs are that desirable, they're also going to be able to distort the gene pool of a closed stud book breed just as effectively--that's why popular stud syndrome exists!

IDK. Humans typically seek out predictability when we go acquiring purpose bred puppies. I think that a lot of the arguments about closed vs open gene pools are arguments about how we hope to shape general demand for our dogs in the future, so that we can ensure there is a large enough market for the dogs that we like to see that some of them are available for us when we are next ready to acquire a dog.

So I guess... Jaz, I know Dobes are really important to you, and I know you routinely talk to folks who breed lots of different lines in the breed and who appreciate different things in their kennels. I know you're ambivalent but generally supportive of outcross projects, although you're worried about losing the essential Doberman without a conservational focus. What do you think is essential to be a Doberman?

I know that if it was me, I would be very worried about losing behavioral type and predictability in the wake of a loose definition of type and magically opened stud books. The pet market is inarguably the biggest dog market that exists these days, and everyone I know that does Stuff with dog breeds frets about bench-line dogs that have a very predictable and consistent physical type but tons of behavioral flaws when it comes to working or sport ability. And because humans are humans, and because our modern world has changed its expectations on dogs substantially in the past decade, Dobermans particularly have undergone severe and sometimes contradictory behavioral selection in recent decades. It's hard to quickly evaluate a dog's temperament, and the breed specific institutions for doing so are far from perfect. It's easy to define "looks like a Doberman," but much harder to define "acts like a Doberman," especially in the moment.

IDK, man. We want the dogs we want. I suppose I'm mostly wondering how the presence of a larger pool of... call 'em "appendix Dobermans" bred as part of outcross projects might both shape and respond to public demand in the Doberman space. After all, litter sizes aren't infrequently ten pups a litter in these dogs; the market's gotta absorb some of it.

My inclination is to go further than allowing outcrosses. Throw out any notion of bloodline preservation. An Alaskan husky is any dog that can do an Alaskan husky's job, regardless of pedigree. A DP's job is to look like a DP, be trainable, be a well-mannered companion at minimum and a protector with the right training, and make puppies that take after it if so wanted--yes? Any healthy dog that fulfills those requirements should have the option to be called a DP, even a mutt off the street.

If you do not understand a breed's purpose I don't think you should be telling other people how their breeds should work, to be quite honest.

[aprillikesthings]

Amedotbomb prompt: Snow Day

(I cheated a little--this is a continuation of the last one)

Amethyst and Peridot arrived at the top of the sledding hill to a Steven hopping from one foot to another with stars in his eyes, and there was a barrage of questions and comments, which Amethyst mostly dealt with:

“Are you girlfriends now??”

“Yes.”

“When did you start kissing??”

“New Year’s.”

“You’re so cute together!”

With a gentle laugh: “Thanks.”

“Have you told Pearl??”

With a sigh: “Not yet.”

“Can I?”

“Yeah, sure. She’ll figure it out sooner or later anyway.”

“When did you know you liked each other?” This was aimed at Peridot, who blushed.

“I don’t know exactly when I started liking Amethyst. I don’t think I really knew that I did until Amethyst kissed me, and then I realized I’d felt that way for a long time.”

Steven’s squeal of delight startled Peridot a little.

Amethyst said, “Aw, you never told me that,” and grabbed Peridot’s hand.

“Well, I mean, you didn’t ask.” Peridot’s face had gone a splotchy blue.

Steven turned towards Amethyst. “When did you know?!”

“Ah crud, I dunno. I think when Peridot yelled at Yellow Diamond? Maybe before that. But that’s when I started thinking about it. It kinda, I dunno, it kinda grew from there, I guess.” And now Amethyst’s face was darkening, her hair hiding half of her expression.

Steven looked nearly distraught. “But that was months and months ago! Why didn’t you say anything earlier?”

“We had a lot of other things going on! With the Cluster and the drill and then other stuff. And I wasn’t sure Peridot felt the same way, anyway.”

They’d forgotten about Lapis, standing next to the sled, until she said, “So are people going to keep sledding or what?”

“Yeah!” Steven said. “You should ride with me this time! Do you want to sit in front or back?”

Lapis looked unsure. “Behind you.”

“Okay! Let’s go!” Lapis sat behind Steven, leaving a slight gap between them, tucked her skirt around herself so it wouldn’t fly up in the wind, and gripped the sides.

“I’m ready!”

Steven reached out with one arm and pushed off, and down they both went, Steven shouting with glee. Lapis was more nervous than she let on, as her wings were out but mostly against her back, until near the bottom of the hill, when they moved out just enough to provide wind resistance and slow them down. Steven was clearly confused by the reduction in speed until he turned around. Peridot and Amethyst could hear them talking but couldn’t make out what they were saying, as Lapis lifted herself from the sled to take the nylon rope and pull Steven back up the hill.

Peridot spoke first, standing at the top of the hill and still holding Amethyst’s hand. “It’s okay you didn’t tell me or kiss me earlier. You’re right, there was a lot of other things going on, and I didn’t even know I liked you yet. I just…” Peridot frowned.

“You just what?” Amethyst turned towards her and grabbed her other hand.

“I just hate thinking about you...caring for me and not...not being able to say anything. That must have felt awful.” Peridot thought of what it would be like if she liked Amethyst as much as she did now, and hadn’t been able to say anything or kiss her or hold her hand, and it hurt. How did Amethyst bear it for all that time?

“Peri, it’s okay. I waited until things had calmed down some and I was more sure about how I felt and I thought you might feel the same, and then I asked you to come with me for New Year’s and I kissed you. And see, now I can kiss you all the time. Like this.” And Amethyst leaned forward just barely and gave Peridot the softest of kisses. Peridot smiled despite herself.

Amethyst pulled back with a smile of her own. “See, there you go. That’s better.”

“Oh my gosh, you guys are so cute!” Steven jumped out of the sled to throw his arms around both of them.

“I’m the only one here who hasn’t had a turn on the sled with you, y’know,” said Amethyst.

Steven said, “You’re right! C’mon, let’s go!” Amethyst sat behind Steven in the sled and pushed off.

Lapis landed in the snow next to Peridot. “I was pretty sure you both liked each other a while ago. Or at least, that you liked Amethyst--you talked about her so much. But I didn’t want to meddle.” She shrugged. “I knew you’d both figure it out eventually. And you did.”

“Yeah, we did.” Peridot looked down the hill. Amethyst had apparently made them tumble off the sled on purpose, and was pulling Steven out of a snowbank, both of them laughing so hard they could barely stand, before plopping him into the sled and shape-shifting into some kind of furry four-legged animal with pointy ears and a long tail. She grabbed the rope in her mouth and ran uphill with Steven yelling “Mush!”

Once they got to the top, Amethyst let go of the rope and ran around Lapis and Peridot several times with her tongue hanging out of her mouth, bumping against their legs.

“Hey. Pet me.”

“What are you supposed to be?” Peridot asked.

Steven rubbed Amethyst behind the ears and said, “She’s one of those big dogs that pulls sleds in Alaska!”

“Siberian husky.”

“Yeah, that. They’re not usually purple though. And they don’t talk.”

“Woof,” Amethyst said.

A strange noise came from Steven, and he looked at his stomach. “Uh, I think I should go home and eat lunch soon.”

Lapis said, “That’s a good idea, since it looks like it might start snowing again.”

Peridot looked up--it had become cloudy at some point.

“Did you all want to come back to the temple with me? It’s nice and warm!”

“We don’t feel cold, Steven,” replied Lapis.

“Yeah but it’s still cosy and stuff. We can watch a movie or play games or tell stories or something.”

Amethyst, still shape-shifted, said “Peridot and Steven can get in the sled and I can pull you back to the warp pad like this.”

Peridot rubbed Amethyst’s fur. “I’d love to go to the temple.”

Lapis said, “I dunno. Sounds like it might get kind of crowded. I think I’ll stay here at the barn. Keep an eye on the fish. Make sure they don’t freeze.”

The other three still made a funny little parade for the distance back to the warp pad: Steven and Peridot in the sled, a fluffy purple dog pulling them along. Amethyst shifted back just as they arrived at the warp pad and all stepped on, and in a flash of light were in the warm glow of the temple. Garnet and Pearl were in the kitchen and Pearl was pulling something out of the oven.

“Good timing. Garnet, you were down to the minute,” Pearl said. Garnet just smiled. “I’m glad you’re indoors; there’s going to be more snow.” She put the sweet-smelling baked good on a rack and closed the oven door and then looked up. “Oh! Peridot, nice to see you again.”

Steven ran into the kitchen. “Garnet! Pearl! Guess what?!” He didn’t give them any time to answer before nearly shouting, “Amethyst and Peridot are girlfriends! I saw them kissing!”

( @amedotbomb )

[darkwood-sleddog]

how does a musher choose the breed of dog they want to use for their team? how do they decide on the breeder that they want to get their dogs from? what qualifications do they look for? do certain breeds do better at different positions in the team (lead, wheel, etc)? thanks💖

I'd say this depends entirely on what type of mushing you want to do and how competitive you want to be in those venues.

Do you want to do competitive sprint on dryland? You're looking at Eurohounds and German Shorthaired Pointers from sprint lines.

Do you want to do competitive sprint on snow? You're looking at Eurohounds and sprint bred Alaskan Huskies (there's overlaps in these). Maybe sprint bred GSPs but they tend to have snowballing issues in the snow that dogs with more husky background tend not to have.

Do you want to do mid distance competitive racing? You're looking at mid-distance bred Alaskan Huskies, maybe race bred Siberians if you're okay being one of if not the slowest musher out there.

Do you want to do long distance competitive racing? You're looking at distance bred Alaskan Huskies. Dogs from kennels that have won Iditarod, Yukon Quest, Femundløpet etc. You can run Siberians here but you won't be competitive and you will be last unless....

You want to do long distance expeditions (non-competitive) and like survival situations then you'll want Greenland Dogs, Inuit Qimmiq, Malamutes and if you want to do fast expedition work, freight bred Alaskan Huskies such as the Hedlund, Denali, dogs from trapline mushers, even larger/hairier competitive long distance dogs like Brent Sass's current lines do well in this venue. Siberians are good too, they're just like...the all around sled dog.

You can run freighting breeds like Greenland Dogs, Qimmiq, Malamutes etc. in races and you will come in last no matter how high quality your dogs unless the race is specific to freight dog sledding like Polardistans.

If you are passionate about a specific breed and want to preserve its drive to work you just....run that breed competition be damned (most Samoyed and Malamute folk fall into this category, and as always Siberians).

If you want to run recreationally you can run literally any breed as long as the individual enjoys it. I've seen everything from toy to giant breeds enjoy dog powered sports recreationally with the right accommodation.

Some breeds are more suited to some positions because of the differences in their temperament and structure. You'll often see teams of purebreds mixed with various Alaskan Huskies because the drive to work and run in the Alaskan Husky is just THERE unlike many of the purebred dogs. It's never been quelled, or lessened because that is the entire purpose of the dog (as it is not actually a breed, rather a purpose bred mixed breed/general type of dog). Alaskans also tend to be a lot more biddable than the purebred and more primitive sled breeds and this makes them good lead dogs.

Freight breeds obviously do well in wheel because they are big, strong and bred specifically to haul heavy loads so their structure is made specifically to be good at doing so. What I do caution is that any team where the dogs are of mixed size or type is that you have to go only as fast as your slowest dog. For those mixing really fast Alaskans in with Malamutes for example this may mean your Alaskan runs much slower than they would like to go. This is why when we see mixed breed teams they are often of like type and size dogs. The most efficient dog team is the one that has dogs that are all nearly matched in size. This is because size affects the speed, stride and smoothness of that stride when the dog is in motion. A dog's structure will also determine its trotting speed and for maximum power you'll want to have dogs that can gallop, canter and trot at the same speed (ideally).

[darkwood-sleddog]

Hey, I think I remember you mentioning a while ago that there are titles that your dogs can earn for mushing or mushing related activities, just that they are breed specific. I wanted to know if there are mushing or mushing related titles that off breeds can earn? My border collie may not have been born to mush like a husky or a mal, but God does she absolutely live for it, and she's been taking pretty well to packing too! Titles aren't everything for sure, we'd still keep doing what we're doing regardless, but I think it would be a nice bonus if there were some out there that she could get.

A huge majority of sled dogs are mixed breed dogs such as the Alaskan Husky. Dog sledding in itself is pretty removed culturally from the kennel clubs so no, there are not titles available to off-breeds.

What mushers will typically do is list the races their individual dogs have competed in, placement etc. Again, this is a sport done mostly by people that don't have a lot of love for the kennel clubs, titling etc. so the closest thing you could do would be to actually compete and get your accolades that way.

The sledding titles amongst the different sledding breeds are each different from each other AND not eligible to other breeds because they cater to the specific working origins of that specific breed, they are not generalized titles with requirements the same across every breed.

For example, the Siberian Husky Club of America centers its requirements for it's titles around racing because the modern Siberian husky was developed as a race dog specifically whereas the Alaskan Malamute Club of America has both racing AND expedition (so non raced miles) as options for their title requirements as the Malamute is NOT a race dog.

Meanwhile, the Samoyed, a breed with a more varied purpose, has a generalized Working Samoyed title that can include proficiency in many activities such as mushing and herding and the German Shorthair Pointer, one of THE MOST popular breeds at the moment for dryland mushing, has zero option of mushing titles (but they do have a wide variety of other titles available to them that are a bit more aligned with their original purpose).

[darkwood-sleddog]

If you were going to design a freight based race/competition for malamutes, how would structure it and what do you feel you would have in the competition?

I feel like I would personally design it similar to Polardistans where each breed has its own specified freight weight per dog required to be carried in addition to musher & sled (for those not familiar Polardistans is only open to Malamute, Greenland Dog, Siberian Husky & Samoyed). Polardistans also includes long races for big teams and not as long, but still challenging races for smaller teams which for any freight race I would design would be included. The Greenland Dogs and Malamutes have very specific freight they need to carry whereas the samoyed and huskies not so much. It’s very much catered to the original intention of the dog.

There aren’t as many people with large teams of freight breeds anymore so accommodating those of us (like myself) with smaller teams without sacrificing the purpose of the dog is important to me. Too many appropriate length races here are sprint (meaning supplies carried is not much a thing & finishing speed matters) or if they are for small teams the distance is inadequate. For example at the normal New England races near me the Unlimited Class (typically 12 dogs) runs the same distance I do with a two dog team where as the 4 dog class, where I would be eligible to run, or 2-3 dog bike/scooter classes are an inadequate distance, usually around 3 miles (at which point my dogs are JUST getting warmed up).

For my own personal freight race I think that I would remove time as being the only motivating factor behind finishing. Further points for the condition of your dogs (or finishing with all dogs) should be awarded. The decline of the freight dog is hugely in part to speed trial dog sled races where having the team of fastest dogs was highly rewarded (and thus we saw the rise of the Siberian Husky and then later the Alaskan Husky & Eurohounds in this need for speed).

I also think having races for specific registered breeds catered to their original purposes as well as general freight races open to any type of dog would be crucial (could you imagine a Day 1 Sled test for Samoyed and Day 2 herding on snow test?? Bc I could). We both need to preserve the working heritage of our registered breeds AND promote freight as a valid and historic way of participating in dog mushing. I would also like to see different weight classes, kind of like weight pull, but for longer distances with a full dog team where pulling heavier freight at the next class could be an ongoing goal you work towards for your next season.

Overall I have a lot of thoughts on the matter, but never having raced myself I find it difficult to be 100% certain of what I would do. I only know that the races around here are not made for me and that certainly the other mushers would look at me odd or in the experience of other malamute mushers, be disdainful of my dogs due to their perceived biases about their “aggressive nature”. 

My dogs are too slow to be participating in the sprint races appropriate for 3-4 dog teams and there aren’t longer distance races for small teams and even if there were again, my dogs are slow traditional freight dogs so running them in a race ultimately not catered to the way malamutes should be mushed would be frustrating because really these are long distance, comfortable daily mileage, dependable, heavy pulling dogs that deserve a race catered to that style of mushing.

[darkwood-sleddog]

Hi! Out of curiosity, why have you chosen AM for mushing rather than a SH? I have always been told that AM are more so utility dogs and good for shorter distances and heavier goods thus making them slower. Is this false?

Why do people choose Siberians for mushing over Alaskan Huskies? Aren’t Siberians slower?

Why do people choose Alaskan Huskies for mushing over Pointers? Aren’t Pointers faster?

Slow does not = bad sled dog. Different sled breeds are used all around the world for different purposes. Sled races and the sport in general ranges from short sprint races, to mid distance, long distance and expedition work (yes dogs are still used this way). Different breeds excel at different kinds of sled work.

The Malamute is a freight breed used for heavy loads over both short and long distance. The Siberian is for faster, lighter loads. There are still competitive freight races being run in the mushing world.

I chose Alaskan Malamutes because the temperament fit me better overall than the Siberian Husky. I wanted to mush dogs, but I don’t feel the need to win with speed (or win at all actually, more interested in having a good time with my dogs and titling them on my own time atm, if we increase our dog numbers I might consider some races). I looked hard to find a breeder that was working her dogs in North America the way I wanted to work them and I’ve been very impressed by both dogs

But let’s not forget: Alaskan Malamutes have run the Iditarod (but so have poodles). Alaskan Malamutes were used to deliver mail by dog sled in during the Gold Rush, Native Peoples used these dogs to haul supplies over long distances, Malamutes were THE preferred dog breed during Antarctic expeditions in the 1920’s-30’s due to their heartiness, spirit, and ability to pull equipment on a sled. While the breed as a landrace existed far before Eva Seeley bred them with the intention of registering the Malamute as a breed, she did so with the intention of making SLED DOGS.

Malamutes also helped hunt for food, but so can Siberians. Chinooks, another sled breed which originated in New Hampshire is bred to be a companion & sledding dog, Samoyeds (many of which do still pull sleds) were also used for herding. ALL sled dog breeds are dual purpose, but to deny them their heritage of pulling a sled is something I cannot fathom doing.

There are a lot of kennels out there doing sled work with their Malamutes, It actually doesn’t take a lot of time to find breeders and people that work their dogs, and the dogs are having the time of their life.