#but sansa and alicent in particular stand out as being in contrast to another character

[garnetislovegarnetislife]

[fortunatelylori]

JONSA: The infamous “undermine me” scene

About a week ago @jonsa101 posted a meta regarding the “undermine me” scene in season 7 (episode 1).

She discusses this particular exchange between Jon and Sansa:

Jon: You are my sister but I am king now.

Sansa: Will you start wearing a crown? (Sansa Snark is in the house, guys!)

Jon: When you question my decisions in front of the other lords and ladies, you undermine me.

 In the meta she identifies the “undermine me” line as a romantic trope that she’s seen play out in many different contexts. If you guys haven’t read the meta yet, please go and read it. @jonsa101 always has some very interesting interpretations and theories regarding the show and I really enjoy her meta work. 

 I was already planning on discussing this scene in detail as part of my upcoming series on all the Jonsa scenes but since she tagged me in the meta, I thought I’d discuss it now.

I have to say that after reading her post, I had a look at lists of romantic tropes as well as my favorite research source – youtube – in order to try and find similar examples of the “undermine me” line. I’m afraid I came out empty on this one.

 However, the more I thought about it, the more I realized that whether or not you identify this particular line as a trope, the whole exchange between them ticks a lot of romantic tropes off the list as I’ll show below.

 This is one of the things that always bothers me about people calling Jonsa shippers delusional. Even if Jonsa never becomes canon, it’s very much a fact that the writers are playing with romantic expectations in all of their scenes. You can’t swing a stick in the direction of these two without one trope or another hitting you smack in the face. So at the very least, Jonsa shippers are responding to these visual and storytelling devices. Hardly a delusion.

 For the interests of this meta I will focus strictly on the tropes used in this particular scene, which considering that it’s only 3 minutes long, I was shocked to find out is more than 1. For reference, I’m working off the list of romantic tropes found here as well as use the explanation they give for each of them. When you have the time, check it out. It’s like an Easter Egg Hunt for Jonsas.

 Like an Old Married Couple: These two people are very close and tend to bicker with each other.

 This is where I would actually place the “undermine me” line. In fact this is where I would put this entire exchange:

Jon: You are my sister but I am king now.

Sansa: Will you start wearing a crown?

Jon: When you question my decisions in front of the other lords and ladies, you undermine me.

Sansa: I can’t question your decisions anymore?

Jon: Of course you can but …

Sansa: Joffery never let anyone question his authority. Do you think he was a good king?

 Ahem … guys, I reeeally don’t think you’re fighting over what you think you’re fighting over. Also can you air your dirty married laundry in private? You’re making everyone uncomfortable!

 Now, Like an Old Married Couple is usually served with a generous helping of the Belligerent Sexual Tension and/or Unresolved Sexual Tension tropes on the side. Which would explain the seemingly random insert of Joffery in this whole conversation (there’s more to it than that but more on that later). I mean doesn’t every girl compare her brother to her ex-boyfriend? Isn’t that a thing that people do all the time?

 The thing that is very interesting here is the way these two are operating. There’s nothing really sibling-like about this interaction. This is two partners having a fight.

 But this is where it gets interesting. Because this exchange is followed by another trope:

 Aww, Look! They Really Do Love Each Other: No matter how much they fight, they really do care about each other very much.

Jon: You think I’m Joffery?

Sansa: You’re as far from Joffery as anyone I’ve ever met.

Jon: Thank you!

 Throughout my series on the Jon/D*ny romance (X) (X) (X) (X) (X), I kept talking about how Jon and Dany never seem to reach a consensus or resolve anything in any of their fights. Every Jonsa scene comes in direct contrast to that. It isn’t the absence of fighting that makes a couple work, it’s them being able to resolve and move on from a fight that does. And this is where this trope comes in. No matter how hard Jon and Sansa have a go at each other, you are never left in any doubt that they care about one another.

 But there’s more …

 Dismissing a Compliment: A character doesn't believe something nice their Love Interest tells them.

Sansa: You’re good at this, you know.

Jon: At what?

Sansa: At ruling.

Jon: No …

Sansa: You are. (beat) You are.

 Why don’t you say it again, Sans? I don’t think he heard you the last two times …

 Sansa: They respect you. They really do …

 Ok, ok. Sheesh! Are we also going to talk about how cute his hair looks today and how dreamy his eyes are?

 This is followed by the hyper-analyzed “but” lines:

 Sansa: … but you have to … Why are you laughing?

Jon: What did father used to say? Everything before the word but is horseshit.

 This may or may not have plot implications later on but for the purposes of what we’re analyzing here, the point I’m trying to make is that Jon is dismissing every nice thing Sansa has said about him and focuses only on the word “but”. Because he’s Jon Snow … You can’t pin a compliment on this guy to save your life.

Also …

 Laugh of Love: The tendency to laugh when in the presence of your Love Interest.

 (no idea who made this. sorry but thank you!)

As well as pretty much every other scene he has with her. Either Sansa is a proficient stand-up comedian or Jon is just really, really happy whenever he’s around her, even when he’s angry at her. Totally platonic, guys! Nothing to see here!

 Caught the Heart on His Sleeve: Ship Tease moment where one partner grabs the other partner's arm/sleeve.

(gif credit to @baelerion)

Complete with Jon looking down to see Sansa touching him either because his senses are overloaded or because he can’t feel anything through the thick sleeve of the jacket Sansa most likely made for him. Also notice that this is described as a ship tease. We’re teased all right …

 Sigh of Love: Sighing dreamily when in the presence of or thinking about your Love Interest.

And because Jon can’t let Sansa steal the spotlight on this one:

(gif credit to @baelerion​)

This is not a competition but if it were, Jon would win. Sorry, Sans! His is longer and deeper. Still love you though!

 And lastly ….

 Like Parent, Like Spouse: A character's Love Interest is similar to one of their parents, be it in looks or personality.

 In every god damn episode they have together and also here:

In conclusion, for those at home not keeping count, that’s 7 tropes used in a 3 minute scene. Is it any small wonder this might seem familiar to people? Either way you want to slice it, you have seen these visual and narrative cues in other stories. Tropes don’t become tropes because no one ever used them.

 Now I did title this meta “the infamous undermine me scene” for a reason. That’s because this scene, as almost all Jonsa scenes, has three layers that are all thrown at the audience simultaneously. Two of these layers are good, one of these layers is BAD. Let’s see if you guess which is which:

 What the characters are fighting about

 This is where the whole text vs. subtext analysis comes in. Ideally, any scene in any story you ever read or watch, should have both a surface level as well as subtext. Now and again you will get scenes, out of necessity, that are simply what they say on the tin but writers are actively dissuaded from doing this on the whole. It would be very boring and frankly poor storytelling if subtext was non-existent and people simply talked at each other, complete with an accurate, objective narrative on what they’re saying and why they’re saying it. To put it simply, it wouldn’t be a satisfying journey for the audience.

 So what is the surface level? Well, this is a direct follow-up to the preceding scene where Jon pardons Alice and Ned and Sansa argues against it. The argument got pretty heated between the two of them so now we’re given a scene where we can see the resolution of said argument.

 What you should keep in mind at this stage is how that argument ended:

Sansa: They died fighting for Ramsay. Give the castles to the families of the men who died fighting for you.

Jon: […] I will not punish a son for his father’s sins and I will not take a family home away from a family it has belonged to for centuries. That is my decision and my decision is final.

 Check-mate, as they say. Jon won that argument. He is the king and he made his decision. Case closed. On a purely surface level, that argument was finalized. We didn’t really need the “undermine me” scene unless we attempt to infer things that are no presented to us directly.

 Which brings us to …

 What the characters are really fighting about

Jon: You are my sister but I am king now.

Sansa: Will you start wearing a crown?

Jon: When you question my decisions in front of the other lords and ladies, you undermine me.

 The question here is why does Jon feel undermined? I think the answer is not because he doesn’t want Sansa questioning his decisions, as she seems to believe. Nor is it because he suspects some sort of nefarious ulterior motive (we’ll leave that for that pesky 3rd layer we’ll talk about shortly).

 We all know Jon values dialogue and collaboration. What we also know is that whatever Sansa says affects him very deeply. You can deduce this from their scenes but, for confirmation, we also have Kit saying that Sansa “twists” Jon. So we can assume that their argument hurts him in some way and even though he put his foot down during the meeting, he still feels the need to clarify the issue with her which is why they’re having the conversation.

 Now people have pointed out that, as one of his vassals, Sansa has every right to question him publicly. The problem is that’s not how Jon sees her. He very distinctly separates Sansa from the rest of his court. And since we already had the “we need to trust each other” scene at the end of season 6, I think it’s safe to assume that he sees the two of them as a unit that is supposed to be on the same page so the fact that Sansa speaks out against him in public, instead of privately, feels like a betrayal.

 There’s also his character and history to consider. Jon has never been the kind of person to take criticism very well, mostly because he’s felt unworthy and rejected all his life. And now he’s gone from the Bastard of Winterfell to King in the North in the span of a few months. That would leave just about anyone feeling uncertain of how much people truly trust their judgement.

 However, if there’s one thing you learn sooner or later, is that there are two sides to every story. That’s why it’s never a good idea to side with one party whenever couples fight.

 Because if we look at things from Sansa’s perspective, you can see how she might feel dismissed. The fact of the matter is Jon isn’t the world’s greatest communicator and failed to talk his decision over with Sansa before announcing it to the Council, which in turn makes Sansa feel sidelined, hence her aggressive snark and Joffrey digs. And we get an explanation of that here:

Sansa: He [Ned] was trying to protect us. He never wanted us to see how dirty the world really is but father couldn’t protect me and neither can you. So stop trying.

 Sansa is operating under a false assumption as well. Jon looks at their argument and feels undermined. Sansa looks at Jon avoiding her counsel and thinks that he does it because he sees her as his little sister that is in need of protection.

 Now Jon, bless his heart, does try to put Sansa in the little sister box at times but he fails at it miserably, partly because Sansa doesn’t let him and partly because what he needs from her is very far removed from what sisters usually provide.

 So there they are … two “siblings” stuck on a balcony having a lovers quarrel. Just another day at Winterfell.

 Which brings us to what I like to call …

 The “D&D screwing with us” layer

 Why do I say that the writers are screwing with us in this scene? Well, because of this:

Sansa: Joffery never let anyone question his authority. Do you think he was a good king?

 There is absolutely no reasonable explanation for why they felt the need to bring Joffery, one of the worst people this show has ever inflicted on us, in this conversation. Firstly, because there is no parallel to be drawn between Jon and Joffery in this situation. For one, if Joffrey was the king here, Alice and Ned’s heads would be decorating the walls. They would certainly not have been brought back into the fold which is what Jon has done for them. Secondly, since Jon is very much talking his head off to Sansa at the moment, it’s pretty obvious that he isn’t above explaining his reactions.

 What she says is, honestly, incredibly insulting which is why she backtracks out of it as quickly as the writers would allow:

Jon: Do you think I’m Joffrey?

Sansa: You’re as far from Joffrey as anyone I’ve ever met. (all the while looking extremely guilty)

 If the mention is here in order to clue us in on the fact that Sansa views Jon as something other than her brother, by comparing him to the only person she’s ever had romantic feelings for, there’s again no need for that. Seven romantic tropes in one 3-minute scene is more than enough to get that point across.

 So why do the writers have her say this? I would argue that this mention is in here in order to advance the “darkSansa” agenda, particularly since this is a scene where Jon says he feels undermined by her twice.

It doesn’t matter that Sansa backtracks on the Joffrey fiasco, it doesn’t matter that she tells him she doesn’t want to undermine him, while desperately sighing with loving eyes that she wants him to listen to her.  The “darkSansa” idea sticks.

 And that’s because the audience support is very much skewed  in  Jon’s favor. Being on tumblr, sometimes you forget that the Jonsa fam is very much the minority and that exclusive Sansa fans are the unicorns of this fandom (#love4unicorns). The vast majority of this audience will not look at Jon as an unreliable narrator, as every character in this show is, but as the ultimate authority on how this scene should be viewed.

 If he says he feels undermined, then it must be because he’s being undermined, which by extension means that Sansa will betray him. And her mentioning Joffery only helps to further antagonize the audience against her.

 Does that mean the Ds want us to hate Sansa for no particular reason? Not really. What they really, really want is to, yet again, beat the “Starkbowl” horse until it expires from exhaustion. And they’re willing to compromise emotional development and cut off the audience from essential POVs to achieve that.

 In season 6, when they first teased Starkbowl, they did it for emotional turmoil. They gave us that beautiful, heart breaking reunion scene only to immediately have Sansa start to be seemingly duplicitous. Because wouldn’t it be just so tragic that after Jon found new purpose in life through Sansa and she finally found safety and comfort with someone that actually cared for her, she would turn everything on its head and betray him?

 In season 7, they wanted to resurrect it because of the Littlefinger twist ending. This little “Joffrey” titbit and the “undermining” conversation helped plant the seeds for it so when Arya (another fan favorite) began accusing her of plotting against Jon, the audience would have this early scene to fall back on, despite the fact that Sansa continuously supports Jon’s policy while he’s away and constantly talks about him, to the point where she almost sounds like Sam talking about Gilly.

 What I’m trying to get at with this example is that the writers are not operating in good faith when telling this story. They will constantly throw things in to tease plot points that never come to pass. I don’t like this narrative choice at all, because it requires being cut off from certain characters POVs (Jon and Sansa are champions of this in season 7) which in turn puts distance between the audience and them, when the core of good storytelling to me is seeing characters wrestle with decisions and emotions not off-screen, but right before our eyes.

However, at the very least, what all of this should tell you, is that you should never simply relay on what the ‘explicit’ meaning of a scene is because there’s far more lurking beneath the surface.