#but it also irks me when people see men's fashion they don't understand and go “oh that's women's clothing”

[madseance]

I keep seeing people suggest Crowley's presentation in 1827 was feminine, and listen—headcanon what you want, I'm not your mom. But the justification is that he's supposedly dressed in feminine, as opposed to masculine, clothing? He isn't. You're just looking at Regency fashion with 21st-century eyes.

Both Aziraphale and Crowley are exemplaries of well-dressed gentlemen of the early 19th century, just in different styles.

On the left, a many-caped greatcoat like the one Aziraphale is wearing; on the right, a coat with puffed sleeves and a narrow waist like the one Crowley is wearing. (Both images seem to originate from Journal des Dames et des Modes, 1811 and 1826, respectively.)

I also saw something about Crowley's fob watch actually being a chatelaine?

Again, I have to disagree. What Crowley's wearing just looks like a watch chain, which both men and women wore. What you can see is the chain and a charm at the end; the watch itself is tucked into a pocket (same as with Aziraphale's).

Watch chain (left; another plate from Journal des Dames et des Modes) vs. chatelaine (right, from here).

While a chatelaine could possibly refer to a decorative watch chain, the chatelaines specifically associated with women are the accessories worn by female heads of household or housekeepers (hence the name) to hold keys and other useful items. They could get quite elaborate. Crowley's doesn't look particularly like a chatelaine more than it looks like a watch chain, to me.

To sum up, there's not really anything I can see about Crowley's fashion choices in 1827 that specifically says "female presenting"; it all fits in with men's fashion of the time. You can headcanon whatever you want! But this particular era isn't one in which Crowley's wardrobe and styling definitively reads as feminine.

Note for a couple people with poor reading comprehension: TERFs are not welcome on this post. Fuck off.

[phoenix1966sbottom]

Hi Phoneix! Do you have any favorite fics discussing the more gloomy, realistic problems between Sam and Dean? Safiyabat's for example (just an example, it doesn't need to be something like that), but non-slash is fine with me. Preferably hurt Sam, and no fixing. Also, if you don't mind, I'm curious what's your idea on their dysfunctional relationship? Thank you! ( I understand this is a fic rec blog, please just ignore my question if you don't feel to answer :)

When I read your first sentence, I immediately thought of Safiyabat for their wincest and gen stories. I haven’t come across many that really focus on the dysfunctional nature of the family relationship as well as their stuff and stays close to canon (there are plenty of serial killer!AUs, etc., for example).

That being said, I have a couple of gloomy ones and ones that just focus on the broken, family dynamic. Hurt!Sam all the way. Heed the warnings where the stories are hosted as there are deathfics in this list, not to mention other disturbing content (also, John and/or Dean are not “good” guys in these stories):

Remember When…by darkroses on Ao3. Sam/Dean, Dean/John. Wincest. John is mysteriously back from the dead and Sam is happy about that until he walks in on his father and Dean. Sam is upset and jealous, so Dean reminds him of times in their past.Sam doesn’t want to think about those times. Dean thinks Sam is playing a game by shying away from him.

Don’t Let Me Know We’re Invisible by mimblexwimble on LiveJournal. Sam/Dean. Wincest. The sex is ambiguous. Sam just can’t cope with the hunting life.

Wild Men Who Caught and Sang the Sun by kroki-refur on adult-fanfiction.org. Sam/Dean. Wincest. Sam is Dean but Dean is not Sam.

What Doesn’t Kill Us by kroki-refur on LiveJournal. Sam/Dean, Sam/John. Wincest. Incest. Heed the warnings on this one! John and Dean use abusive methods to keep Sam in line. (this might be f-locked now)

Talk to Me by darkroses on Ao3. Sam/Dean. Wincest. John walked in on the unthinkable. He never wanted this to happen but he needed answers. He hoped this wasn’t true. He hoped there was another reason.

The Wolf At His Door by goandgetthegun on Ao3. Sam/Dean. Wincest.  Dean wants Sam in every way he shouldn’t, so when he gets an opportunity to have what he wants, he takes it.

The Virgin by darkroses on Ao3. Sam/John (non-con). Wincest. Sixteen year old Sam is on a hunt with his dad, brother, and Bobby. The thing is targeting virgins. John takes matters into his own hands to protect Sam.

And if I show you my dark side by ratherastory on LiveJournal. Sam/Dean. Wincest. Dean will never let Sam go, and Sam knows it. This changes nothing, but it changes everything.

These two are a/b/o by darkroses:

To Have Worth. Sam/Dean. Wincest AU. Dean claims Sam from a young age to be his omega. Sam wasn’t sure how he felt about that. His feelings changed with time. All he wanted was to be worth something. No matter what Sam offered, he could never have what he was searching for.

The Monster in the Shadows. Sam/John, Sam/Dean. Wincest AU. John comes to terms with how to treated Sam after he presented as an omega at the tender age of twelve. He only did what he thought he was right. He can never make up for what he did. He can never change what Sam thinks of him now.

And, finally, a gen one I really liked because it showed how Sam suffered for a decision Dean made (something the show, in my opinion, teases at but never fully resolves. e.g. Dean selling his soul and not really considering what hell he’s condemning his brother to in the process, allows an angel to possess him even though he knows Sam hated every moment of Meg and Lucifer). It goes AU after Dean knocks Sam unconscious and leaves him on the ground in 9X23.

How the Wild Things Start by foolscapper on Ao3. Gen. Sam-centric. "This is where it starts — the brightly lit ring, the screams, the glinting of knives, the baring of teeth. This, right here, is where it begins. Sam turns to Dean, Metatron just a hero’s walk away, and Dean slams his fist into the side of Sam’s face. It will bruise, but that’s not the point. Sam will not face Metatron’s blade and wrath, but that is not the point. The point is, Dean puts Sam’s hands on his chest, the action sickly sweet like perfume left on a tacky, bloated corpse — and then he walks away. He leaves Sam, dreaming black dreams on the ground, just outside of the impala. Baby does not protect him when one of Abaddon’s followers finds him. Baby does not scream for help or look for Dean when the demons drag Sam’s unconscious body away.When Dean leaves Metatron’s burnt-out husk, his bones screaming ecstasy from the kill, he finds Sam gone.“

As for my thoughts on dysfunctional wincest…I’ll put them below the cut so people can skip that if they want.

I started watching the show as it went on the air, so I have had 12 years to mull over all sorts of relationships, etc. Below are my thoughts on wincest in fanon. I am by no means saying it exists in canon or should exist in canon. These are simply my opinions. 

Wincest, to me, was there from the start. You’ve got the father (and one day I will sit down and write out my take on John) who raises his sons as soldiers (I know Sam described them as “warriors” in the pilot, but I suspect the word choice was intentional by the writers. There are rightfully all types of negative connotations to the phrase “child soldier”). Nevertheless, this is how they were raised.

The sons were never given the time or permission to form outside attachments with all the moving around John put the family through. They were taught at a young age to lie, and later to cheat and steal via credit card fraud and pool hustling at the very least (a reason the whitewashing of John’s character in these last few seasons irks me. “I raised you right” was John’s motto? Really? However, that is a discussion for another time)

Dean was given the heavy burden of raising his brother. John stripped him of his childhood and drilled into him to always “take care of Sammy” from a very young age. And that is where I see the seeds of wincest, with the older brother having proprietary feelings for his younger because John placed Sam (literally and figuratively) in Dean’s hands. And, at his end, John placed Sam’s life once more in Dean’s control by urging him to save or kill his younger brother while leaving Sam in the dark about what he knew.

John emphasized family first according to his rules and did not allow them to leave (except, of course, he was allowed to go off and not only father another son, but let that son have the life, including “normal” dad, Sam and Dean ached for). The price of leaving the family (and for college, not to run off to deal drugs, etc.)? Excommunication from the only family/support system Sam was allowed to have. Having made his sons so dependent on the family unit, I wonder if John secretly thought Sam would eventually cave and come crawling back to them (my speculation - nothing in the show overtlypointed to this).

For me, that sealed the deal that Sam and Dean were much like two people trapped on a deserted island, or like siblings trapped in an attic with a parent that was only sporadically present - ripe breeding ground for incestuous thoughts and feelings. No, I don’t for one second see it as a healthy relationship, because the boys were never allowed to know healthy.

Furthermore, Dean was always the controlling partner. I would say to the point of obsessiveness, which is understandable given the pressures that were placed on him by John. In the first season, we get to see Dean isolating Sam from the life he was building outside of the “family”. In “Skin”, he sort of mocks Sam for staying in touch with his friends, making him feel guilty that he is dishonest with them and agrees when Sam rather incredulously asks if he is supposed to just cut them out of his life. By the end of that episode, Sam is resigned to no longer really staying in touch. But Dean, like John, gets to live by different rules. We discover Dean did have a relationship with Cassie while Sam was away, going so far as to break that unspoken rule the family had about not revealing the hunting life to people they aren’t “saving”. That backfired on him, with her ending the relationship. When they meet up again in the first season, he promises to come back to her even though she doesn’t believe they have a chance. He never does return and even ignores Sam’s offer of staying there longer (Sam wanting Dean to have that life he himself had tried to fashion is once again echoed in the promise he extracts from Dean in Swan Song. Notice that when Dean returned from Purgatory [when he was thought dead], he harangued and punished Sam verbally and emotionally for trying for normal once again).

So, the show continued its slow reinforcement of the boys never having successful relationships outside of their tiny family. Sam “fails” at love when almost all his significant others die, and Dean “fails” at love when he is either rejected by them or he feels they are unsafe knowing him (in the latter, he makes one of his unilateral “I know what’s good for you even though this will take away some of your autonomy” decisions and has Lisa & Ben mindwiped. foolscapper did a dark fic au on how that choice played out in the end…ouch)

To me, there is so much fodder to play with in fanon for a twisted, unhealthy relationship with a dark, controlling Dean. Although I read very little written like that, it is my favorite wincest headcanon. This is not to say I don’t enjoy a romanticized version of wincest (because I do very much and it is usually my preferred reading), but, to me, the show enforces an unhealthy, push vs. pull relationship between the two that they will never completely resolve.

As an aside, I also find it almost humorous we all refer to them as “the boys” when they are men (if you take into account their age), as though we subconsciously acknowledge they have not grown up into adults in the conventional sense of the word and probably never will.

They truly are the lost boys doomed to never leave Neverland.

[thereallovebug]

Some really valid points here. I’ve watched a shit-ton of Regency and Victorian fiction, not to mention having a long fascination with vintage clothing, so yes, men did dress that way. Of course, this being Crowley, he found what passed for “edgy” in those days. Aziraphale looks more like Fezziwig lol. 😄

I keep seeing people suggest Crowley's presentation in 1827 was feminine, and listen—headcanon what you want, I'm not your mom. But the justification is that he's supposedly dressed in feminine, as opposed to masculine, clothing? He isn't. You're just looking at Regency fashion with 21st-century eyes.

Both Aziraphale and Crowley are exemplaries of well-dressed gentlemen of the early 19th century, just in different styles.

On the left, a many-caped greatcoat like the one Aziraphale is wearing; on the right, a coat with puffed sleeves and a narrow waist like the one Crowley is wearing. (Both images seem to originate from Journal des Dames et des Modes, 1811 and 1826, respectively.)

I also saw something about Crowley's fob watch actually being a chatelaine?

Again, I have to disagree. What Crowley's wearing just looks like a watch chain, which both men and women wore. What you can see is the chain and a charm at the end; the watch itself is tucked into a pocket (same as with Aziraphale's).

Watch chain (left; another plate from Journal des Dames et des Modes) vs. chatelaine (right, from here).

While a chatelaine could possibly refer to a decorative watch chain, the chatelaines specifically associated with women are the accessories worn by female heads of household or housekeepers (hence the name) to hold keys and other useful items. They could get quite elaborate. Crowley's doesn't look particularly like a chatelaine more than it looks like a watch chain, to me.

To sum up, there's not really anything I can see about Crowley's fashion choices in 1827 that specifically says "female presenting"; it all fits in with men's fashion of the time. You can headcanon whatever you want! But this particular era isn't one in which Crowley's wardrobe and styling definitively reads as feminine.