#but gregory is very sweet and the case is fun. i remember not being super invested in it while playing the fan translation but the official | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

nyxravessnow · 4 years ago

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Review 2021 Kuromyu – Namashitsuji Secrets of the Public School Arc

Disclaimer: This is not an unbiased review so please proceed knowing that it is heavily opinionated.

2nd Disclaimer: I have never seen the anime or read the manga of Black Butler. All of my thoughts are based on comparisons to previous musicals and comments from fans about how accurate their portrayal is. I understand this may turn some people off my review which is understandable but I think an important thing for shows is how accessible they can be for people who don’t know the source material.

FREE OF SPOILERS

Overall rating: 8/10

Acting – 8/10

Music – 8/10 (I took an average of my song scores)

Ease of understanding – 8/10

Direction – 7/10

Overall Summary:

I think the show was excellent and showed respect to the old shows but also did quite a few new things. All the scenes and songs had clear thought put into them and the acting showcased these things very well. It was not quite like what I expected it was going to be like but now that I’ve seen it, I can’t quite think of what I expected. I think if you like 2.5D or if you like Black Butler or the actors in this show then you will enjoy the show quite a lot. It is not exactly the same as before from every standpoint apart from it being Black Butler so I would say don’t go in expecting it to be just the same.

I will move to a spoiler review under the cut but plainly, this show is very good and I think all the actors did a great job.

As I normally do I am going to give my thoughts on story, acting, songs and directing, then mention some extra stuff that I might think of at the end. I am sorry if I bring up the fact that I’m British and went to boarding school like my parents too much.

Story: The story was mostly pretty easy for me to follow, especially as a British person who knows about Cricket and boarding schools. I haven’t seen Campania so the dolls confused me a little at first but that is completely on me for not having seen the previous show. When watching I was very confused about what was going on towards the end but looking back on it that was mainly because of my migraine and not because it wasn’t clear. Scenes were set out well and the camera work was done in a way to make it very easy to follow along. But omg the cricket made me a little upset. It was super fun and all. But it was so inaccurate XD. I guess I now know the pain of people who like tennis when they watch the Prince of Tennis.

Acting: I am going to go actor by actor and give a rough overview of what I thought of them

Tateishi Toshiki as Sebastian Michaelis

I felt like we didn’t get a terribly demonic Sebastian in this show but otherwise I loved Toshi as Sebastian. He felt very elegant and reserved most of the time which contrast well with the times in which he was annoyed at Ciel. He wasn’t terribly present in a lot of the show but I did really enjoy him when he was on stage. His singing voice is excellent and I loved hearing him sing, will go into more about it later during the song summaries.

Konishi Eito as Ciel Phantomhive

I thought Eito was amazing as Ciel and he is my favourite Ciel so far. He showed Ciel’s switch between cute and normal so well and it really made me think about how good of an actor Ciel is. I don’t know how he did what he did to his voice but he makes himself sound like a young child with a slightly higher and scrapey voice than normal and it really makes you think that he is very young. I know many people were worried that they were casting an adult as Ciel because they wanted to sexualise him and this was not the case at all. He only showed any skin in the very first scene when in the cage and he had the sheet/robe-thing showing his shoulder. His singing voice is quite a lot mature than the previous two Ciels, for obvious reasons, and I think it really helped me enjoy his songs.

Okayama Ryousuke as Soma Asman Kadar

While I would still say I prefer Sho’s Soma, mainly bc Sho is one of my fav actors and I am biased, I really liked Ryousuke’s Soma. He was super energetic and friendly and really gave off this air of innocence as he believes Ciel’s reasoning for him to join Weston. His cricket was also very fun. His singing was pretty okay. I think this was as his singing suffered when he was trying to sing in Soma’s voice.

Ueda Kandai as Undertaker

I was honestly quite surprised how good Kandai was as Undertaker. I think his Undertaker voice got better as the show went on so I assume the reason it was less good at first was nerves. He wasn’t in it too much but I thoroughly enjoyed him in every scene he was in. I think I would love it if he learnt to sing in his Undertaker voice more but I also understand that is quite difficult so understand why he’s not doing that.

Sana Hiroki as Edgar Redmond

I thought he was very good as Edgar and carried the emotion needed for the more serious scenes, like the flashback about Derek, very well. He definitely emphasised the queerness of Edgar and had some rather flirtatious moments with Maurice and Joanne. However, despite being flirty and not seeming to be very serious, I completely bought it when he became serious and he played the shift very well (such as in the Maurice reveal scene). His singing voice is good.

Tazuru Shogo as Herman Greenhill

I thought Shogo was really good as Herman, even if it did feel like him playing a slightly nicer version of Sanada – his character from Prince of tennis. He was my 2nd fav of the four and I always enjoyed watching him in his scenes. He played the emotion in the Derek flashback amazingly and you could really see the pain in his eyes when he realised what he had done. His voice was really perfect for Herman.

Satonaka Masamichi as Lawrence Bluewer

I really loved Masa as Lawrence. I don’t know how accurate it is as he didn’t seem very sweet from what I read on his wiki page, but his Lawrence seemed quite tsundere. I loved his bit in the Cricket match when he was talking about wanting to win in his very last year. He also just seemed quite cute. I really enjoyed his singing.

Goto Dai as Gregory Violet

I LOVED Dai as Gregory. He definitely gave off the aura of being weird but he also seemed very sweet to Cheslock and the two actors had really good chemistry. He was really cute in his Cricket gear. He was by far my favourite of the prefects. Despite seeming cute and sweet to Cheslock he definitely retained the aura of mystery and you could never tell what he was thinking. His singing voice is pretty good but he didn’t have many solo bits.

Furuya Yamato as Clayton

While at the beginning I did get an intelligent stuck up vibe from Yamato as Clayton that kinda died away as the show went on and he became much more of a dork. I dunno how much of this is in character but to me it felt slightly like Yamato playing himself. As I think Yamato is an excellent actor, I was a little bit disappointed to see his character change quite a bit but I don’t know how much was him and how much was the direction. Since Yamato is known for comedy and his adlibbing I wouldn’t be surprised if this was actually just direction and the route they decided to go down for this character, hence why they scouted Yamato. I know his singing voice may not appeal to everyone, but I really like it.

Nakajima Takuto as Edward Midford

Takuto was very good as Edward and I think he played his straightforwardness quite well. I love Takuto but I don’t think Edward had much to do apart from the cricket which Takuto did very well. His singing voice is excellent.

Warning: Tsukasa is my favourite actor, and I am very biased

Taguchi Tsukasa as Maurice Cole

Tsukasa was AMAZING as Maurice. He played the changes in his character so well and even though he’s not a very nice person I felt really bad for him during his breakdown as Tsukasa’s scream was heart wrenching. When he was pretending, he felt so light and sweet and then when he was being his normal self he dropped down his voice and even changed his accent slightly as well as changing the way he would stand and walk. Ngl I was not paying too much attention to other people when he was in the scene and I don’t know if it’s just because I’m biased or because his command of the stage is that good but I really felt his stage presence. I loved the way he repeated 2 O’clock to Edgar and the others and how he mirrored the way he did it with Ciel and all the subtleties to his acting were great. He didn’t get to sing very much but he sounded really good.

Fukuzawa Yu as Cheslock

Apart from Tsukasa I think Yu was my favourite in this show. He brought so much energy to Cheslock and I don’t mean making the character energetic, just that he always has so much power and feeling behind his lines and he was so good and cool! He had good command of the stage and worked so well with Dai to be the one the stands out and the one that fades into the shadows. He mostly rapped so I don’t remember his singing voice very much.

Uchino Fuuto as Joanne Harcourt

Fuuto didn’t really stand out to me very much and I don’t think he had very much to do. His singing voice was pretty good.

Hayakawa Iori as Macmillan

He served his part in the story well and was very cute and energetic which I liked. He kinda reminded me of doll a little. His singing voice was pretty good.

Yamaguchi Kooki as Derek Arden

He wasn’t in very much of the show but he played his part very well and even though we got so little of him being unpleasant the way he played it made me hate Derek immediately. I don’t think he got any solo singing bits?

Takahashi Shunichi as Johann Agares

He filled his role very well. The most impressive thing was his falling from the stairs, I was very worried he was going to hurt himself, so I was really glad he was okay as he went from pretty high considering there were lower stairs. His singing voice was good.

Songs: I really love Yu(vague) the composer of the show and he is my favourite music composer. I think he did a really good job with the songs on the whole. I think he did well making them seem different and new yet familiar.

Opening song – 7/10

I think this song was a good opener. I wasn’t too sure about it at first, but it got better as the song went on. Toshi’s voice didn’t sound to be working with the song at first but since he sounded fine later, I think it was just his voice wavering at first from nerves so I’m excited to see what he’s like in the last show. I like how they did short recaps of the previous shows from Lycoris to Campania so the fans are caught up on what has happened, especially since it becomes important when Undertaker comes back with the dolls at the end.

2nd song, I think it’s called ‘It’s perfect black’ – 8/10

I really like this song. I think it is a nice scene setter and is very well sung by everyone. The dance works well and kinda brings Druitt’s dancing to mind with some of it. The song features the full cast and is effectively the Pawn and Sword song of this show.

Welcome to Weston song – 10/10

My first 10/10 song. I really love this song and I already can sing along to it. I love the prefects singing and that the others sing the chorus for them. (Also partly love it for its reprise but I’ll get to that later) I love how rigid and together it sounds. By that I mean that everyone is singing their lines as quite cutting and the harmonies are very crisp. Everyone is perfectly in time and there is no deviation. The rigidness shows the formality and tradition of the school which is reinforced by the students marching around the stage to get to the places. This is the case for everyone except the prefects who have more flowy lines and they walk a lot more freely showing the school’s hierarchy. I also love the prefects pushing Ciel around and surrounding him which foreshadows how he his treated.

Only Prefect Four – 9/10

I might be slightly biased as a Mankai stage fan as this song sounds so like a Mankai stage song but I love it so much. It would be 10/10 but I think their harmonies at the end could be a bit tighter. I think the soft and flowery and upbeat music works really well after the last song. Kinda indicating that the prefects live in a different world to the rest of the school which kinda serves as storytelling so that later when they’re so surprised by Derek’s actions it makes sense as they feel kinda separate from everyone else and it makes sense that they wouldn’t know what was going on in the rest of the school. I also love how they each get their solo bits which tell you stuff about the characters. Edgar’s dance is really reminiscent of Druitt which I really love. Herman’s music is a lot less flowy with a base note and the dance, using cricket bats, really gives off an image of strength. Lawrence’s mixes classical music into the instrumental and it has a more traditional feel. The dance involves a lot of stepping and stopping showing a formulaic approach rather than being flowy or strong. Gregory’s music has a grand feeling to it and it goes lower. Gregory doesn’t move much while Cheslock is doing some hip-hop dancing next to him. And instead of singing a solo section he talks about how he wants to go to bed.

Yes, my lord – 10/10

My favourite song in this show. It shows Ciel being told to do things and him passing his chores to Sebastian and Sebastian getting more and more annoyed with him, even breaking and calling him a brat at one point. The upbeat tone is quite fun and it works really well as a montage song. I like how it goes from Ciel saying ‘Yes, Clayton-senpai’ (senpai is a polite suffix for names of people who are higher up than you) to dropping senpai to just saying yes then turning to Sebastian. It really showcases brat Ciel.

Soma’s song – 10/10

His song is all about being Ciel’s friend and it’s really cute and energetic. The outfits from Soma’s song in Circus and brought back and it has a similar instrumental to his song there. He messes around a lot more in this song, though. Even though he is now much older than Sho was when he played Soma through this song he feels far more youthful through the more relaxed choreography and the energetic music.

Ominous prefect song – 9/10

This song is so cool. I really like the sharp shapes being projected onto the back with lilac light and the softly ominous instrumentals. (it comes right after Edgar mentions ‘the secret of what happened that day’). The vice-principal walking around at the back is really interesting as it looks like he is monitoring them. And the other students walking around with lanterns gives the song an almost supernatural feel. And then Undertaker peeking out from the back at the end gives a more direct hint of what is going on.

Nightmare, opening reprise – 8/10

This is just a reprise of the 1st song but I like it a bit better because it is shorter and the choreography of the cultists surrounding Ciel’s bed is really nice.

The Headmaster’s decision – 10/10

I like the fast pace of this song as Ciel runs around to ask about Derek and keeps just being told it was the headmaster’s decision. The students moving and singing together, then encircling him reinforces Ciel’s feeling like there’s a secret that everyone knows but isn’t telling him. I also like the use of Derek’s actor walking around the stage, always just beyond their sight from where they are.

Cricket song, last song of Act 1 – 6/10

This song is good it’s just not super enthralling. I think it’s probably the weakest pre-interval song out of the Kuromyus. At the beginning Sebastian and Ciel’s mics got really quiet for some reason and the instrumental was a bit louder than them. It’s a nice gentle and weirdly happy and hopeful instrumental which is a bit at odds with the past two ominous songs and I can’t decide if I like that or not. Also, I think the harmonies are a bit off so hopefully that will be better by the final performance. A lot of the singers sound like they have tension in their voices so I think they were all pretty anxious for this song. I do like the song and it might go up a bit if they can get the harmonies in the final show because they got almost none of them in this show. (The one that they did get sounded really good though)

INTERVAL

Cricket tournament – 9/10

While the previous song was also more upbeat than the ominous songs I don’t think it worked due to being directly afterwards, as the first song of Act 2 I quite like that’s it’s more energetic as it gets you hyped for the 2nd Act. This is the song that some Tenimyu, Prince of tennis musical, fans are saying was inspired by Tenimyu. And I will say, it was 100% inspired by Tenimyu XD. Yana-sensei is a fan of Prince of tennis and Shogo, Herman’s actor, was cast in a role very similar to his Prince of tennis role then the Green Lion section literally has lines that are exactly the same as lines from the team Shogo was in. Also, the music during their bit is actually somewhat reminiscent of the music that team normally has.

[Yu(vague) is so good at changing types of music during songs ahh, the Green Lion to Scarlett Fox transition is just so good.]

Honestly, this song would be a 7 or 8 out of 10 without the Violet Wolf part bc omg that part slaps so hard. Gregory and Cheslock high-five and the music just switches to electronic disco music and they rap most of their bit. I love it so much.

Sapphire Owl’s bit is cool too.

Scarlett vs Sapphire Cricket match – 6/10

It’s pretty good. Solid song but isn’t too exciting. Soma’s solo bit is really cute. Main thing letting it down is the ‘It’s cricket’ refrain that is in all three match songs. I was already done with it after like 30 seconds in this song and this song doesn’t have anything else lifting it above like the others do.

Violet vs Green Cricket match – 8/10

Cricket match as a rap battle. I dunno why Violet House became a rap house but I love it and I love Cheslock rapping about his awesome pitch. Then he and Herman having a rap battle is just so fun. I don’t know if this is as fun to Black Butler fans who know the characters a lot better or whether it would be uncomfortable but I had a blast in this song.

Sapphire vs Green Cricket match – 7/10

I really like the beginning instrumental and the short song bit at the very beginning of the song but the refrain hit again so it couldn’t go above a 7 for me.

Victory song – 6/10

Not a bad song but I don’t think the harmonies were there for this one and so I’m excited to see it in the last show again and hear if they improve.

Weston Reprise – 10/10

Oh my god I love this reprise so much. At first it sounds very like the original song then as the prefects slightly lose it as they realise what they have done it becomes more out of sync and the music quietens and it sounds more acapella and they sound slightly like they’re losing it due to the horror of what has happened. And the scratchiness of Gregory’s voice making it sound like he’s going to cry really reinforces that they are just children and they cannot deal with something like this.

Fight song – 7/10

I love the Undertaker taking Ciel to the side and staring at him crazily and singing at him. Again, I could hear Toshi’s nerves and I hope that he can sing the song better in the final show. I really love the Undertaker and Sebastian’s duet though and I think their voices sound really good together and I love the blood refrain in the song.

Finale song – 7/10

A pretty short but solid refrain of ‘It’s Perfect Black’

Direction: I thought the direction overall was pretty solid. There wasn’t anything really innovative attempted I don’t think but I didn’t really feel like there was anything lacking.

Overall: I really loved this show and look forward to seeing the final show and I think this show set up the new cast well for future shows.

Do I recommend buying the stream and DVD?

If you are a fan of 2.5D, any of these actors or Black Butler I really recommend trying to see this show. (The final show with be on 4th April on theatre-complex.jp and you can buy a ticket with just a vpn) While it is very different I feel like it was fairly faithful to its roots but is also trying to grow into something new.

Lastly: If you have any questions about the show, any parts, any songs or about any of the actors feel free to drop me an ask and let’s talk about it!

#Kuromyu 2021 #kuromyu #Secret of the Boarding School #weston arc #stage review

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gaywatchpod · 6 years ago

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Episode 2: The Cheetah Girls

Voiceover: Now tuning into Earbud Media: Audio for everyone.

**Theme Music plays**

Charlotte:: Okay

Jenni: Hello everyone! Welcome to Gaywatch where we’re gay and we watch things.

C: This is our very first episode ever, yay!

J: Woo

C: And it is on –

C + J: The Cheetah Girls!

J: I’m not doing the cheetalicious thing

C: Cheetahlicious!

J: Okay

C: Okay, we had to say it.

J: We had to say it, it’s important.

C: It’s out, it’s out there.

J: Um, growl power.

C: Yeah, that’s the best term ever.

J: Yeah, that’s exactly how you say it, there’s no other way to say it

[laughter]

J [overpronouncing]: You have to say growl power.

C: Growl power.

J: Say that five times fast but please don’t

C: No thank you.

J: In case you guys didn’t listen to like our little introduction episode we published the other day,

C: Mhm

J: Who are we? What’s your name?

C: So, my name is Charlotte. Um, I use she/her pronouns and I’m queer so I’m on this podcast with my other queer friend Jenni

J: Hell yeah! Yeah, I’m Jenni.

C: Yay!

J: I use they/them pronouns. I’m queer in the gender and the sexuality way.

C: Yes.

J: I’m also, I use the word bisexual a lot.

C: Mhm, so do I.

J: Yeah, that’s where we are, we’re two bi bbs, um

C: Yes, that was good!

J: Just two bi beebs and that’s what we are.

C: Yeah

J: Yeah

C: Why are we doing this podcast, Jenni?

J: Well, so, I know we have like so much queer representation in the media

C: Mm, so much

J: Like, I know there’s like a lot to choose from, but like, sometimes I like to watch media that’s like not really queer from like when I was a kid.

C: Yes

J: But also from, like, current times and talk about, like, the implications it has.

C: Yeah

J: For me, for other people

C: And how it informs our queerness as people.

J: Yeah, so that’s what this podcast is and we’re gonna put a little spoiler warning in there now cause

C: Yeah

J: We’re obviously going to ruin the Cheetah Girls and if you haven’t watched the Cheetah Girls

C: Please stop listening and watch it immediately.

J: Yeah, why are you here?

C: Like, what are you doing?

J: Are you okay?

C: Literally what are you doing? Why are you not watching it right now?

J: Are you okay, it is 2 dollars on Amazon.

C: Yeah

J: Um, you can also do a deep Google search

C: Right

J: And maybe you’ll find it.

C: Yeah

J: Like, I don’t know.

C: Just so, yeah, spoiler warning, great.

J: Before we dive into the Cheetah Girls, how are you doing today? Like, how’s your day going?

C: *sighs* It’s going pretty well. I have like a little bit of a headache right now which sucks, but like what’s new in Char’s world, I guess?

J: Where, where on the head?

C: Um, like right in the front.

J: That’s the worst.

C: Like it feels like it’s right underneath my eyebrows.

J: Is it like a sinus one?

C: Yeah, cause I’m like a little sick.

J: Me too. I have that same headache right now.

C: Yeah

J: Yeah

C: So, um, but I got to sleep in today a little bit and I made myself breakfast which was amazing.

J: Ooh what’d you make?

C: I had eggs with cheese

J: Ooh

C: Turkey bacon, half of a pumpkin bagel, and coffee.

J: That, that was like really sexual right there.

C: Yeah

J: Oh my god, wow

C: I felt it. It was so good.

J: Like, that shit hurted.

[laughter]

C: Yeah, so, um, how’s your day going?

J: It’s, it’s fine you know, I’m a little sick.

C: Yeah

J: As we’ve previously discussed.

C: Yes

J: But like, I’m pretty hype right now, like, I’ve had two coffees.

C: Yeah

J: I had two lattes already today.

C: Lattes?

J: Yes, like

C: Flavor?

J: Um, first one was a golden latte with oat milk.

C: What does golden mean?

J: Um, so there’s turmeric in it, so it’s like a weird color

C: Oh

J: Well, not weird, it’s actually like a really pretty fall color, it’s like a golden color.

C: Gorgeous

J: Um, and I really like oat milk, like, we stan. And

C: Awesome

J: Yeah, it’s my favorite like non-dairy milk and and then, I had a soy latte. Very boring.

C: Yeah

J: I put honey in it cause my throat hurts.

C: Yeah

J: But I was like not committed enough to get tea.

C: Amazing

J: Cause I don’t like tea that much.

C: Yeah, I’m a coffee girl for sure.

J: Yeah, I like force myself to drink tea sometimes but like, I’m a coffee boi so.

C: Yeah

J: Yeah

C: The two genders

J: So, welcome to the two genders: coffee girl and coffee boi

[laughter]

J: Um,

C: That’s us

J: This is your daily reminder that gender is fake.

C: Totally

J: Um and that’s the end of Jenni’s gender corner.

C: And that’s a fact. Get with it or, don’t listen, I don’t know.

J: Like, yeah, please, uh, leave, but yeah so gender’s fake and we might use the words girl and boy but like

C: But that’s cause everyone else uses that and it’s really hard to do, talk about media

J: Yeah

C: And do queer readings of it

J: Cause we’re currently living in a society where like everything is so sorted by gender

C: Totally

J: That if we, in order to like fully engage with the media of the society, we have to sometimes use those terms.

C: Yeah

J: But just know that we know they’re all fake

C: Yeah

J: And that we’re gonna use them in satirical ways

C: Yeah

J: And in fun ways because gender’s fun and gender can be

C: It is fun

J: Whatever you want it to be

C: Totally

J: Yeah

C: Yay

J: Before the Cheetah Girls, we have one more check in to do. What media are you super into right now?

C: Oh, geez I didn’t think about this question.

J: I can go first if you want.

C: Okay, Jenni, go.

J: Um, I have two media things

C: Okay

J: So, um, your boi has gotten into Bandcamp.

C: What?

J: I know isn’t it weird? Cause I have Spotify so I like never listen to anything else

C: K

J: But my friend has a band, it’s called Pom Pom Squad. It’s really good. And their EP is only on Bandcamp, so I bought – not bought Bandcamp, I downloaded Bandcamp, bought the album, have been listening to it on repeat it’s very good.

C: Wow

J: The EP is called Hate it Here. I really love it and I’ve listened to it just so much, it’s very like feminist and like kinda yell-y

C: We love those two things

J: But there’s also some like really beautiful songs

C: Yeah

J: Like, my favorite track is Hate it Here

C: Yeah

J: Um, but like all of the songs are really good, there’s like four or five songs.

C: That’s awesome.

J: It’s really good.

C: Yeah, cool

J: If you feel like downloading Bandcamp, get it, it’s good.

C: Cool

J: Yeah. How about you?

C: Well, yesterday I started watching The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel on Amazon Prime

J: Ugh, so good

C: It’s such a charming and sweet and funny show.

J: Yeah it’s a very cute show.

C: It’s winning a shit ton of Emmys which is

J: Yeah

C: Why I was like, okay maybe I need to really get in there and like

J: It’s –

C: See what the show’s about and um

J: It’s for sure problematic

C: For sure, but it was like the 40s

J: It’s like, yeah, that’s, that’s people’s favorite excuse is to set it in a different time.

C: Oh, totally

J: But it’s very cute and it’s like uplifting. And easy.

C: And she’s a powerful female figure.

J: Yeah

C: Yeah

J: There are moments where there are like nods to feminism.

C: Yes

J: And, for sure

C: And there’s a queer character.

J: Yeah

C: So,

J: It’s very white, but ugh.

C: For sure.

J: Yeah

C: But

J: Yeah

C: But yeah, that’s what I’ve been watching.

J: Makes you feel happy. It’s a good one.

C: Yeah

J: So, now we’re gonna dive into our media for the day.

C: Oh my gosh.

J: Which is The Cheetah Girls.

C: I’m so excited

J: Yeah, basement flooded.

C: Totally

[laughter]

C: So, The Cheetah Girls

J: So excited

C: We just realized, came out in 2003 and

J: We were both 6

C: We were 6 years old. 6! Which is –

J: Wait, were you born in ‘97?

C: Yeah

J: Oh, I was 7.

C: Okay, so I was 6 years old and Jenni was 7 years old.

J: Yeah, we were children.

C: Literally children and like

J: And we definitely both watched it like when it first came out and

C: Yeah

J: So, what was your history with it, like when, do you remember first watching it? Like, any big memories attached to it?

C: I cannot recall the first time I ever watched it. But I know that we had it on VHS and I remember watching it like so much.

J: Yeah

C: On, like on that VHS and

J: We also had it on VHS

C: And, yeah,

J: Yeah, my mom and I were really into it.

C: That’s cute.

J: My mom loves Raven Symone, like she would

C: Who doesn’t? I mean, not now

J: I know but like we were, like I mean now we don’t

C: Right

J: But growing up we were both very into Cheetah Girls.

C: Yes

J: My mom used to watch That’s so Raven with me.

C: Yeah

J: And so we were just like super into it. I’ve seen them in concert twice. Once with –

C: That’s amazing!

J: Once with Raven and once without.

C: Okay, well, the Cheetah Girls without Raven I don’t really think are the Cheetah Girls. I’m just gonna say it.

J: I know, but I would just like everyone to know that I touched Sabrina’s hand.

C: That’s amazing.

J: Yeah, at the second concert I went to, my mom and I splurged for, they were $40 at the time, to get floor seats.

C: Wow

J: It was after the third movie, I believe.

C: Uh oh

J: Um, so they were like less popular.

C: Yeah

J: And Raven wasn’t there.

C: Yeah

J: So we got like, floor seats and there was this one part of the show where they like emerged from the middle of the floor instead of being on like the actual stage and they like walked past us and like I got a high five.

C: That’s iconic

J: And I felt very cool

C: Wow

J: Yes

C: Yeah and um we’ve talked about this, too but there’s a book series called The Cheetah Girls

J: Yes

C: Which the films is based on and the books were by Deborah Gregory.

J: Did you ever read them?

C: I, I had one of them, like I owned, I remember owning it but it was really overwhelming to me because it was a really thick, long book.

J: Yeah, and there were a lot of them

C: And the text was small

J: Yeah

C: And I think at my age I was like not really there yet, but my mom knew I was into that, so like I think I got the movie version of the book

J: Oh yeah

C: Later, do you know what I mean?

J: Yeah, I know exactly what you mean

C: Yeah, but so I remember having it on my bookshelf. I never read it. Had the VHS and then, like, I remember, I really do recall eating Reese’s pieces on my couch.

J: That’s so specific

C: Watching the movie. I think I watched it twice in a row. And my mom was like “you need to go do something else,” but I was incredibly obsessed with the Cheetah Girls, like, really really obsessed, like I wanted to look like them. I think every

J: Yeah

C: Every little girl —

J: Yeah, every little girl that watched that wanted to.

C: —wanted to. So, I remember we would like go to Kohl’s for back to school shopping and —

J: I love Kohl’s

C: we love Kohl’s! And —

J: Kohl’s is important.

[laughter]

C: And, I really just wanted like all the cheetah apparel that I could find.

J: Yeah

C: And I remember, I think I did eventually get a belt that had cheetah.

J: You had a belt?

C: Yeah

J: I had a jacket.

C: Yeah

J: It was like one of those jackets that like the sleeves were like a thick sweater material.

C: Yeah

J: That was like black and tight and then like the body part of it, like the vest part was furry cheetah print.

C: That is atrocious and I really wanna see it.

J: And my best friend and I got matching ones.

C: Wow

J: We were probably about 8.

C: Sisterhood.

J: Yeah, I —

[laughter]

J: So, it’s like, this movie was in both of our childhoods. It was like very present.

C: Very much so, I think it was like for sure my first thing I remember being like obsessed with.

J: Yeah

C: Like that feeling of like these people and this group and these songs like are so important to me as a person right now

J: Yeah

C: Like I didn’t really get that until after then, until like Miley Cyrus.

J: Oh, yeah

C: She was the next obsession and then they were all girls until the Jonas Brothers happened

J: Oh my god, I was never really into the Jonas Brothers.

C: Then, I felt sort of pressured, I think, like

J: Mm, yeah

C: To be obsessed with them

J: Yeah

C: And I needed to attach myself to some

J: Disney really wanted all of us to be obsessed with them

C: to be straight, yeah.

J: And to be into the Jonas Brothers

C: Yes and so, and I- I mean they did it well and they’re cute and I really did love them, but I think I just wanted to like attach myself to like a new boy, like icon.

J: Yeah

C: To like be normal.

J: I always used to like, the people I would decide were like my crushes when I was trying to like be straight, I would always pick like the prettiest boy.

C: Oh my god, like the most feminine

J: Yep

C: Sort of

J: Yeah

C: Yeah, for sure

J: For instance, in this movie the guy with like, Raven’s boy in this movie with like—

C: What’s his name?

J: I don’t know his name, but he has like long blond hair and he’s beautiful. He has like the most—

C: Derek

J: Derek! I loved him.

C: Yeah

J: And I like was always so into Derek

C: He’s gorgeous

J: Yeah and he’s so cute and he’s like pretty sweet in this movie and yeah, I was always really into him. Definitely tells me that I’m very bisexual.

C: Yeah

J: Cause like he’s got lots of gender stuff going on.

C: Yeah, he does

J: Which, like, is never acknowledged once.

C: And his eyes — oh my god

J: He’s so

C: He’s gorgeous

J: He’s gorgeous

C: So, speaking of favorites: which Cheetah Girl, Jenni, was your favorite and why?

J: I was always really into Dorinda.

C: Yeah

J: I think it’s because she’s like really queer.

C: Yeah

J: At least for me, I always —

C: Of the 4 of them, totally like the least feminine, yeah.

J: Yeah, she definitely to me, like, I think something I really like her voice.

C: Yeah

J: I really like her voice and like I think she’s always, she’s a really good dancer.

C: Yeah

J: And I was like really into that. I definitely watched her on Dancing with the Stars.

C: To — oh my god yes.

J: Yes. And was like really excited in the second movie when she got her own, like, B plotline.

C: Oh my god

J: Like

C: Like a love interest?

J: Where she got like the the love interest and —

C: And she got to dance in Spain?

J: — where there was like the dancing thing

C: Yeah

J: Yeah and I really loved all of that. I was just super into her. I also really have always loved her style.

C: Yeah, she’s cute.

J: Yeah she’s great.

C: Um, yeah Raven or Galleria I guess was her name, was definitely my favorite because I also loved Raven.

J: That’s fitting for you.

C: Yeah and I really identified with her, like she was so independent and I really like felt her like need to control things and like be in charge and from—

[laughter]

J: You’re such an Aries

C: Yes! And from like a, as a budding Aries

J: Oh my god

C: At whatever year this was in my life, I completely understood her passion and ambition and like, I admired that and I think because of that I also understand how she became sort of caught up in all the things she does during the movie and

J: Yeah

C: how she sort of becomes a diva, like, cause I sort of wanted that, you know?

J: Yeah, I definitely think, like, when I watched it I, I always usually really hated her character

C: Yeah

J: But I think part of the reason I hated her is because I like identified with it.

C: Yes

J: And I was like, I think I’m a little bit of a control freak

C: Yeah

J: And I remember, like, watching it and being like “oh my gosh, like that’s like if I went bad”

C: Yeah

J: Like that’s what could happen and so I -

C: Yeah

J: think that’s why I always hated her

C: Yeah

J: But, yea

C: I also think she just really embodied, like, the girl that you wanted to be, like,

J: Yeah, like

C: She was so powerful and like a really, but in a really deep, sweet way like

J: Yeah

C: Because in the movie like you really feel her feelings like a lot.

J: Yeah, a lot of, like all of her things - is very justified.

C: Exactly

J: Like everything she’s going through and

C: Right

J: You know she’s young and

C: Yeah

J: I think we forget that because she’s clearly not 16 in this movie

C: Right, mhm

J: And, so we’re definitely like viewing her through this lens of her like being older than she is and like

C: Yeah

J: having more knowledge about the music industry and things

C: Oh, yeah

J: And so I definitely think like that contributes to it, too.

C: Yeah and I think the way that she’s portrayed like as a friend and as a friend to other girls was really powerful to me because

J: Yeah

C: Cause I wanted

J: And

C: that friendship like so badly.

J: Yes, I like always was jealous of that like that solid group of friends.

C: Oh, yeah, like, and that’s such a myth, too, like thinking back to all the media and all the things that you saw of like female friendship, it was so, like, you have a group or you have, it’s like these 3 girls or these 4 girls and they’re inseparable.

J: Yeah

C: And we never know how they meet. Like, we never understand their origins at all.

J: Yeah they’re—their friendship doesn’t really make sense.

C: No

J: And we’re never given like

C: We’re just like, it’s so strong because - whatever!

J: Because we’re friends.

C: Yeah, like

J: And the other thing is, we, the, most of the characters are fleshed out so I kind of, like, can see especially like, you know in that scene where um you see uh, Adrienne Bailon, I don’t -

C: Chanel

J: The scene where you see Chanel

C: Yeah

J: Give Dorinda like the jacket

C: Yeah

J: You can see that like they’re caring and they really do care about each other

C: Yeah

J: Um, so, there are like moments of connection where you can see “oh, there might be a history behind this”, but

C: Yeah

J: It’s not apparent how they met.

C: Right

J: Other than like school.

C: Yeah

J: And like how they came to be this close

C: Yeah

J: And how they found out that they sing well together

C: Yeah

J: There really isn’t that much back story.

C: So it really gives, I think it gives audiences, especially young girls watching or like young people watching, this idea of like “You should have your people”. Like, you should find your best friends and if you don’t have these best friends, like what are you doing and who are you and you’re a loser.

J: Yeah!

C: Because that’s always what it was portrayed as and I think I was just, and I was completely nerdy and weird and like kind of a loser when I was younger

J: Yeah

C: And I really just wanted, but I was so obsessed with like this idea of stardom and fame and like singing and performing.

J: That’s so interesting cause I also was like that

C: Yeah

J: Like, as a kid I definitely like, I did theater and I always was like how can I like break through, become a star?

C: Right

J: Which is like so silly cause I like -

C: It’s, but, to be that young is like it’s not silly.

J: Yeah, you don’t, it doesn’t make sense to you.

C: Right

J: Like all the things that that takes and also like

C: Right

J: Now that I think back on it, I’m like, I wouldn’t like that.

C: Oh, yeah.

J: And it’s not like for me and...

C: I would like plan out backyard concerts like on notepads.

[laughter]

J: That’s so funny

C: And they would of course never happen, all were just entirely fake but.

J: I used to like, have shows in my bedroom.

C: Oh my god, yeah

J: For my parents

C: Yeah

J: And there was, I specifically remember this one time: so I had this like sparkly pink lava lamp.

C: Gorgeous

J: And I turned it on and I printed out on our computer, like, I was probably 8, maybe younger.

C: Yeah

J: Printed out like pictures of everyone in the Lion King

[laughter]

J: And tacked them all over my wall and turned off all the lights except the lava lamp and then I like blasted the Lion King soundtrack and just like apparently, I, in my head, thought I was doing this really cool dance routine that I had like created.

C: Yeah, mhm

J: I made my parents stand in my doorway and watch it cause I was like “this is my play”. And I did it and apparently I was literally just like jumping on the bed and then like going and tapping the wall

[laughter]

J: And like running around the, just like, a like zig-zag across my own little bedroom.

C: Yeah

J: Apparently, but that was like my show.

C: Yeah

J: And I used to that a lot. We have a lot of really funny family videos of that.

C: Yeah

J: But, yeah definitely wanted to get in on that fame and fortune and the Cheetah Girls was for sure part of that.

C: Right and I think it was the earliest thing I remember being obsessed emotionally invested in at all as a kid in terms of media. And I think the reason it’s so important to me now like as a feminist is like, is because it was so empowering to watch.

J: Yeah

C: And I didn’t, and I really like, you don’t, thinking back to all the media I watched like following the Cheetah Girls, I can’t identify really strong moments of like “oh, that made me feel seen and like empowered to be a girl” you know?

J: Yeah

C: And, I, and you never saw like friendship in the way that you see friendship in that movie until like later for me. So, it is a feminist movie.

J: Oh, it’s for sure feminist. I, I don’t think it was, I don’t know if it was intentionally feminist.

C: Yeah, I don’t either

J: But, um, it definitely sends a feminist message to have, well, we’ll have to actually talk about a bit more, we’re going to dig deep into the race in this movie cause it’s actually really interesting. And obviously before we dig into that I wanna like say that we are both white people.

C: Oh, yeah

J: So, we are not like experts on this.

C: And most opinions and/or commentary about race will be not, I mean obviously, based in lived experience at all.

J: Yeah, it’s based on -

C: But, based on mostly academic knowledge and we’re in no way claiming to-

J: We are in no way claiming to know everything about this.

C: Yeah

J: So, I wanna talk about race in this movie cause in this movie, Dorinda, played by Sabrina Bryan

C: Mhm

J: Um is the quote-on-quote “white character”

C: Yeah

J: Or like, the one that’s coded as white, um, there is a scene where she calls herself white. There’s also a scene where she says “I don’t know what I am” and

C: Because she’s adopted, yeah.

J: And Sabrina Bryan is actually not white.

C: Mhm

J: Uh

C: Which not a lot of people know

J: Yeah, most people don’t know cause she has her hair dyed, um, blonde.

C: Yeah and she’s very white passing.

J: She’s very, she has like a lighter skin tone.

C: Yeah

J: So like people think she’s white. She’s, I think her dad’s Mexican.

C: Mhm

J: Um, so, like she’s Latinx.

C: Yeah

J: But they make her the poor one.

C: Right

J: Which is an interesting choice

C: And it’s like the, she’s the only white/white-passing person of the 4 women.

J: Yeah, so that’s-

C: So that’s profound in itself for a movie coming out in 2003 that’s for kids.

J: That’s cool. That’s having 3 leads that are being explicitly women of color. Not, like, not that Sabrina’s not explicitly being a woman of color, but like, there are 3 characters that are like named woman of color, you know.

C: Right, and who, I mean that’s part, you can tell throughout the film like this is a part of their identity.

J: Yeah, they don’t hide it.

C: No

J: They for sure, like it’s very clear.

C: Right

J: That doesn’t mean there’s no stereotypes happening here.

C: Exactly.

J: There are for sure stereotypes. There’s the whole thing that the mom’s are very racialized in this movie.

C: Yeah, working on some like pretty racialized stereotypes like

J: Yeah

C: In terms of like maternal behavior.

J: So, the moms are definitely very racialized.

C: Right

J: Yeah, um, we have Dorinda’s mom is the adoptive — not the adoptive mother but she’s the

C: Foster mom

J: The foster mom. We don’t really see her that much.

C: We see her at...

J: A moment maybe?

C: Just a second when Chanel comes to visit.

J: Yeah, and then, is she there at the end?

C: And then she’s at the end when they’re all like having the little celebration, so we only, we-we really don’t know much about her.

J: Mhm

C: She’s sweet and nice for I think all we can tell

J: Yeah, we really don’t get to know her

C: But, the, I think it’s worth noting that the moment that you do see her for the first time she does sort of snap back and yell at all the kids in the house.

J: Yeah

C: In sort of that, like,

J: What’s that stereotype called? Um...

C: Um, like a mammy?

J: Yeah

C: Yeah, almost, so like

J: But we really only see her for a minute.

C: Exactly, right.

J: So it’s really hard to like, say that that’s what that is.

C: Right, mhm.

J: It’s, it could also just be like, we know she’s a foster parent

C: And that’s incredibly stressful.

J: It’s incredibly stressful and when you’re

C: In New York City and

J: And when you have however many — who knows how many foster children

C: right

J: - were there at that point

C: Right

J: You’re gonna have to yell at ‘em a little bit.

C: Yeah

J: And then we have Chanel’s mom who is the Latina mom that we have in this movie

C: Mhm

J: And she is kind of posited as the hypersexual mom.

C: Totally

J: She’s the mom that’s like fashionable.

C: Obsessed with fashion

J: And like shops all the time

C: And she’s skinny and young and like is constantly interacting

J: Yeah

C: With men and that’s sort of like her main

J: And that’s sort of like her whole, her whole character that’s all we get from her really

C: Exactly, mhm, and that’s sort of the source of frustration between her and Chanel is

J: Yeah

C: Is this guy and then of course we meet Luke in the second movie

J: Yes

C: Um, but, so then that’s fleshed out and it’s very sweet and they get engaged

J: Yeah, so -

C: But

J: They kind of -

C: They started on relying on stereotypes to -

J: Yeah, they definitely -

C: - develop her character

J: They definitely do kind of like have set up in the next movie, but

C: Right

J: We’re focusing on the first one, so

C: Yeah

J: It’s not great

C: Yeah

J: Another interesting thing, kind of going back to how Sabrina, the white-passing person is the only poorer character-

C: Mhm

J: That we really see and then when you look at like the opposite family that would probably be like Galleria’s family.

C: Yeah

J: Um, which is like the Black family and they’re, th- they’re rich. They’re well off.

C: Very, yeah, very much so.

J: Um, which is like an interesting class flip -

C: Right

J: From what, like, all of the stereotypes...Obviously we know that like there’s a whole stereotype that like people of color are poor.

C: Right

J: They’re kind of turning that on its head.

C: But also with her mom, but also with Galleria’s mom, you know, she’s like the overbearing, overprotective Black mother.

J: That’s true.

C: She literally is called Mama Cheetah by Jackal Johnson at some point

J: Yeah

C: And, you know, her style and her look is all very -

J: I don’t know how to describe it, it’s very much like -

C: Like professional, sophisticated

J: Yes

C: Like, fashionable

J: I feel like she’d be like turtleneck, pearls, like

C: Yes, very much, yeah

J: That kind of a thing. Some nice hoops, you know.

C: Oh, yeah.

J: And, so, going deeper into the class stuff: there was definitely. Oh, sorry

[Charlotte burps]

[laughter]

J: That’s for sure staying in.

C: Leave that in there.

J: I’m going to, um, so, that’s how I feel about capitalism is that burp.

C: Yeah

J: Um, yeah there was definitely lots of capitalism here even though they were trying turning class stereotypes on their head

C: Yeah

J: They were very, they were very much like focused on the brand -

C: Yeah and -

J: Of the Cheetah Girls

C: And fashion and like purchasing clothes

J: Yes, like their clothes in this -

C: Right

J: Iconic

C: Amazing

J: We really do love the fashion

C: But, like, that’s how to be a girl properly

J: Yeah

C: Is to be hyper feminine and to buy clothes

J: And to have -

C: And to have money to do that

J: But they do, they do address that

C: Right

J: With -

C: For sure

J: Um, with Dorinda having like, financial trouble and then Chanel gives her that jacket to wear.

C: Yeah

J: Which is like really cool but it also, a lot of it doesn’t make sense honestly

C: Right

J: Because like that one time- after they save Toto from -

C: Yeah

J: The, like, pit in the ground

C: Yeah

J: And they like, decide to have a concert, they’re all wearing the same outfit.

C: Oh, yeah that’s ridiculous

J: And they’re like -

C: We don’t know how that happened

J: Which is ridiculous

C: I think, you know, that should uhh go unquestioned because it’s incredible.

J: No, it is incredible and those are like really great outfits.

C: Yeah

J: Which one, which color outfit’s your favorite out of those 4?

C: Um, the pink one.

J: Oo, I like the blue.

C: Really, Aqua?

J: Yeah, yeah.

C: Oh that’s pretty.

J: I really think Aqua- Aqua’s underrated and doesn’t-

C: Totally, but she’s so underwritten

J: Yeah, she, she definitely, we don’t know anything about her. She’s from Texas.

C: We know she’s from Texas, she likes hot sauce.

J: Hot sauce. That’s it.

C: Um and she has rich parents, we’re assuming?

J: Yeah, we also, only character that we never see the parents.

C: Right. And we know she is smart because she takes classes at NYU.

J: Which is cool

C: And she doesn’t take the subway until the end.

J: Yeah

C: She hates the subway cause she thinks it’s gross.

J: So, it could definitely-

C: That’s all we know about her though.

J: It sounds like she could be a really interesting character but we don’t know enough.

C: But, she is the, like, sassy girl from the south.

J: That is definitely her character, yeah.

C: Yeah

J: She’s very much a caricature kind of

C: For sure, yeah

J: She’s the least fleshed out of the 4 girls.

C: Right

J: Now, I think we should move on and talk about, like, queerness and gender.

C: What’s going on with all that stuff?

J: What’s happening there? Cause it’s a lot of stuff!

C: Yeah, it’s a lot. Something I know that we’ve talked a lot about in terms of, especially with bisexuality and coming to terms with that and understanding what that means -

J: Mhm

C: Esp - is, especially in relationship to like girls and like feminine icons as like especially, um, when we were younger — not understanding, like having these sort of two feelings of I really, like, love them and I want to be them, I want to be this person.

J: Yes

C: Because they’re so amazing and beautiful and whatever and you like, that sort of over-identification with the character, with the actor whoever it was, but then at the same time it was like, okay well did, did I actually want to be them or like be with them?

J: Exactly

C: And it was such a hard feeling to deal with and I know we’re gonna talk about this in future episodes, but that was really hard for me to grapple with with Glee and Santana

J: Yeah

C: Because that was an insane obsession and anyone who knows me, like, knows that and it was a way for me to justify like my, you know, quote-on-quote “straightness” was that like, “no, I just wanna be her. She’s just perfect.” And of course that’s true.

J: Yeah

C: But, no I mean there’s a queer relationship there.

J: Yeah

C: And, um, I think I, and of course I was too young at the beginning to understand like I didn’t ever understand myself as queer until I would say, like, the beginning of my adolescence.

J: Mhm

C: Or sort of start thinking about that or questioning that, so, but definitely by the second movie with the Cheetah Girls, I was like “I think you’re all beautiful” and like that was just definitely a factor, so, but I think I used that justification of like “oh my god I wanna be them like I want their lives”

J: Yeah

C: You know

J: That’s really interesting.

C: I wanna be really good friends with them and that’s-

J: Yeah

C: That and there’s more to that.

J: I definitely — I don’t know, for me, I didn’t have that same identification of like “I want to be them”

C: Mhm

J: That - maybe it’s a gender thing.

C: Yeah, I’m probably-

J: For me-

C: Cause like, I’m a way more of a femme. Obiously.

J: I’ve always identified way more with like the straight male characters.

C: Mhm

J: Than with anyone else in-

C: Yeah

J: Film and television stuff, but like, in this move I think the way I justified it for myself was that I wanted that friend group.

C: For sure.

J: Which we kind of talked about a little bit earlier, but-

C: Yeah

J: Like, looking back on it now, I think it’s really interesting because this is like a queer kinship. This is like a, a sort of chosen family.

C: Yeah

J: They, they all do have their families but they all have their problems with their family, so-

C: Right

J: They’ve created this other family that they go to.

C: And it’s-

J: And -

C: Also like their families are friends and the moms are friends and-

J: Yeah

C: And they’re all relying- and it’s all women just relying on each other.

J: And it’s so -

C: For survival

J: I’m so sorry if y’all can hear my cough drop

[C chuckles]

J: But it’s so community-based like -

C: Yes

J: It’s very much like a community.

C: Like if we don’t have each other, I won’t be okay.

J: Yeah

C: Yeah

J: And it’s really, that’s really sweet and I definitely -

C: Yeah

J: -don’t think I understood it to this extent -

C: No

J: -when I watched it obviously, but now, looking back on it, I’m like, oh, like this is like a queer kinship and like a friend group that I looked up to and I think I’ve tried to create that for myself.

C: Yeah

J: Now and I definitely think our friend group is like that.

C: Yeah

J: That we’ve, like, created a family for ourselves because we’re all queer

C: Yeah

J: And we’re all apart from our families

C: Yeah

J: Cause we’re all at college

C: Mhm

J: So, we definitely have like created our own little queer family.

C: Right

J: Which is really sweet and cute.

C: It’s so nice and it’s, also I just love it because it, you let, you get to see, like, the movie lets you watch young teenage girls mess up, like, dream and mess up and then figure it out and then keep going.

J: Yeah, like, I love that and -

C: It’s beautiful

J: It would’ve been so easy for them to just paint Raven’s character as, like, an awful character, as the bitch and had them get her out of the group. They could’ve done that.

C: Right, yeah.

J: But they didn’t. They definitely, like, it’s very transformative justice-ish.

C: Yeah

J: They definitely, like, work through it and there are more problems, like, later in other movies, but in this movie in particular they come back together at the end they work through it and they’re like “yeah, you were kinda awful-

C: Right and they -

J: -but we’re gonna work through it”

C: And they like talk about it with each other, like they never go and like talk shit about each other to other people-

J: It’s not

C: to girls or other people

J: Yeah, it’s not catty at all.

C: It doesn’t become a catfight whatsoever even when-

J: And that’s great

C: That’s what everyone else is sort of pushing for that to happen.

J: Yeah, like, it would’ve been easy for them to do that.

C: Yeah

J: So, it’s very cool and, like, telling that -

C: Right

J: -they didn’t do that so that’s like choices that they made and I can’t believe we didn’t mention this until now, but, Whitney Houston produced this.

C: Yeah, thank you, Whitney! Rest in peace.

J: So, thank you Whitney Houston, yeah. Like, there were women involved in making this movie and you can tell.

C: Yeah, you can definitely tell.

J: It’s so obvious.

C: Yeah and I think just seeing like the agency that they all have is really important and it’s… yes, like, Galleria is a more central character and we see more of her life than other characters, but they’re all given some sort of story, some sort of back story.

J: Yeah

C: In a way

J: Yeah, I want more from\-

C: From Aqua

J: Aqua

C: For sure

J: But like, there is -

C: Yeah

J: They’re mostly fully fleshed out characters.

C: And we see them, like, we’re supposed to see them as full human people.

J: Yeah

C: With like a range of emotions

J: And with flaws

C: Yeah

J: And like they’re-

C: Who can like work things out and be okay.

J: Yeah and they, I mean, I think they make their, like, feminist agenda pretty clear.

C: Yeah.

J: Like in the songs like in “Cinderella”-

C: Oh my god

J: Like that’s a feminist anthem!

C: An anthem!

J: It’s so good, like, the lyrics to that song! Everyone should go listen to it right now. It’s so good. Okay-

C: Yeah, so “Cinderella” is amazing, um-

J: Would you please give us a dramatic reading of just like, just a few lines.

C: So, the chorus is “I don’t want to be Cinderella sitting in a dark, cold, dusty cellar waiting for somebody to come and set me free. I don’t wanna be like someone waiting for handsome prince to come and save me.”

J: Amazing!

C: Yes! “Oh, I will survive unless somebody’s on my side.”

J: Damn, like -

C: Wow.

J: That’s amazing. I definitely-

C: And they literally say in the song “I’d rather rescue myself.”

J: Like, that’s amazing

C: Oh my god

J: This was in 2003!

C: 3!

J: Yeah, like, obviously there are problems with this movie, but like -

C: Right

J: They got a lot accomplished.

C: That’s pretty huge.

J: That’s amazing.

C: Yeah and, like, and thinking about like every movie or musical movie that like followed that that was really popular like High School Musical and Camp Rock, they were never about female friendship. It was always just about like this hetero love story.

J: Yeah, like the center of this was not a straight love story.

C: No, not at all.

J: Like there is one, but -

C: But it’s so secondary.

J: It’s so secondary and there’s even that part where Galleria says “If he can’t respect my art,

C + J: he can’t have my heart.”

C: Goddamn!

J: Amazing!

C: Like, we all need that in a poster like on our, like in our room.

J: Like that’s so sweet.

C: It’s amazing. But I also, so on that note, I think it was interesting to look back and see the, like, how gender is constructed in terms of like heteronormativity in this -

J: Yeah

C: -film because the girls are all straight.

J: And of course there are men in this film.

C: Right.

J: Not as many. Most notable Jackal Johnson.

C: Ugh.

J: I would just like to say right now: Jackal Johnson is a meninist.

C: He is a meninist.

J: He’s also a furry.

C: Yeah, we know that.

J: That’s a fact because that scene where they all made us watch, like, four girls with like the -

C: That was, there’s things to unpack there.

J: Yeah there’s a lot there. They’re wearing like the animal masks, so there’s-

C: Its teenage girls and I think-

J: It’s so creepy.

C: It’s so creepy!

J: It is genuinely scary.

C: And I think, but, they, I think they purposefully paint him as like the creepy, manipulative, like, Dirtywood music exec person

J: Yeah, they’re definitely, that’s like a commentary on capitalism

C: Yeah, totally

J: That’s a commentary on like-

C: Men in power

J: The exotification of racialized bodies.

C: Oh, yeah.

J: There’s a lot going on there

C: Yeah

J: Very interesting

C: Right

J: And of course, like, they did, like they got all of that and they got put on Disney Channel.

C: Right

J: That’s amazing.

C: Yeah

J: I’m like so amazed that they got all that done.

C: But I think also with like the, I don’t know, the Galleria/Derek story, I think for me it was both an empowering and problematic depiction of boys and girls interacting like in a flirty way.

J: Yeah

C: Because it was very much like “he’s being mean to you because he likes you” which is -

J: Yes, which is the worst.

C: Terrible! And I remember being told that all the time.

J: Oh, me too.

C: Like even from my family. So, and that’s just not good and we just don’t want that grossness out there.

J: Yeah, like, like it’s just gross “boys will be boys”

C: Yeah, no that’s exactly what it felt like.

J: Like he punched you cause he loves you.

C: Right and then they literally like get in their face and are kind of harassing them in the movie like in the-

J: Oh, yes

C: -hallways at school

J: And the hallways and when they’re like at lunch they’re being weird.

C: Yeah, it’s incredibly creepy, but -

J: It is creepy.

C: Galleria was like so not there for it. She was not putting up with his shit.

J: Yeah, she was verbal, like, she was like “I don’t wanna do this”

C: And then she did not become preoccupied with it and she moved on and was like “I’m gonna become a diva and get annoying with my friends but I-I rather would’ve had like that happen than her be like “oh, I’m in love with Derek and like we need to date.”

J: Yeah, like, the distraction — not the distraction, but like, the problem in group didn’t come from -

C: Yeah

J: - a boy.

C: Right

J: It came from a conflation of an, of Galleria’s ego.

C: Exactly

J: Like it could’ve, they could’ve easily made it about the boy but they didn’t.

C: Yeah

J: So, that’s like a conscious choice that they made.

C: And like they do kiss at the end, but you don’t, I don’t think the movie ends and like you are left to just remember that kiss.

J: Yeah, you don’t leave thinking “wow, she found love.”

C: Right, like not at all.

J: That is not at all what you feel from that movie.

C: Yeah, like the end-

J: You leave with like -

C: - is them literally rejecting a man in power.

J: Yeah

C: And saying that the Cheetah Girls are unavailable.

[laughter]

J: That’s so good.

C: So, that’s like kind of powerful.

J: Like, the, it’s really important to me that she has that like huge flip phone

C: It’s so-

J: And then she says that into it and just closes it. It’s so good.

C: She closes it in like the most dramatic way you’ve ever seen anyone close their phone.

J: It’s a very good flip phone and yeah, it’s a great scene.

C: It’s amazing.

J: And something kind of interesting: lately, there was like a little resurfacing of Cheetah Girls -

C: Okay

J: -in pop culture. There was a Bustle article written recently about how the Cheetah Girls was the perfect introduction to intersectional feminism for 90s kids.

C: Right

J: It’s a very good article. You should go read it, I’ll put it in the show notes. And it’s like really interesting, talks about a lot of the stuff that we talked about today.

C: Yeah

J: And there’s also, kind of in addition to this, there was something, kind of a back-and-forth I saw on Twitter about this.

C: Yeah

J: Cause someone tweeted about this article and said, like, “the Cheetah Girls started us on intersectionality, it’s about like working moms, and, like, women of color, um, and kinship”. And then someone else quote-tweeted it and said that in the original book, all four like leading women -

C: Yeah

J: - were Black.

C: Mm

J: And they were critiquing the movie for having it not be four Black women.

C: Right

J: Now, as I said, we’re not experts on race, but I think that’s something interesting to think about cause that is a choice that they made.

C: Right, but it’s um, I mean they did still make a choice to make the characters women of color.

J: Yes, they didn’t whitewash this.

C: Right, which it would’ve been the easiest thing in the world to do.

J: Yes

C: Especially for Disney Channel in 2003, like that’s probably what everyone wanted.

J: It’s- yeah, like-

C: and we didn’t get that, so

J: Yeah, they didn’t do that at all. I’m, I would not be surprised if one of the reasons that we have a white-passing character is because Disney wanted a white person.

C: Oh, I’m sure yeah.

J: Cause I am sure they did that partly to get it, like, through.

C: Yeah

J: Through the execs because like Whitney Houston wanted to get this made.

C: Yeah

J: Yeah

C: And something they say on this Bustle article is that it acknowledged identity instead of leaning on erasure which I think is so important

J: Yeah

C: Because they all could’ve still been cast sort of as like white girls in that sense.

J: Yeah, it very easily could’ve been normalizing.

C: For sure

J: They could’ve been like “we’re just like you.”

C: Yeah

J: Like “we’re all the same.” But they didn’t do that. They literally say “our spots are different”

C+J: “Different colors!”

[laughter]

J: “we make up one big family though -

C+ J: “we don’t look the same”

J: They really do

C: Yeah

J: Kind of like-

C: And like that’s the core of their friendship and that, like, they’re literally...they’re friends and they find kinship over difference and through difference and-

J: Yeah

C: And that is what is -

J: So that’s-

C: -makes them so strong and together.

J: Yeah, so I-

C: Which is awesome.

J: -think that’s really powerful

C: Yeah

J: But it is definitely interesting to think about like that they did make that choice to change the races up.

C: Yeah

J: -from the book.

C: Right

J: Um

C: So, at the end of each episode on Gaywatch, we are going to give y’all our best and worst moments from the movie or media text.

J: Yeah, cause we’ll definitely, I know this was a movie and I’m sure we’ll do lots of movies.

C: Yeah

J: But, we also do wanna talk about TV shows and magazines and other kinds of media.

C: Yeah, we’re flexible

J: And whatever people bring us.

C: Yeah

J: Yeah

C: So, Jenni, what was to you the best part of The Cheetah Girls?

J: I, okay so, for me the best part because I think I completely forgot this happened.

[laughter]

J: And when it happened, I was very alarmed. Um, so, the dramatic climax of the Cheetah Girls when a fluffy white dog falls into a sewer.

C: We think? Question mark? It’s a hole in the ground.

J: It’s a hole in New York City. Is it a sewer?

C: We don’t know.

J: Probably. What is it? Is the clown in it? I don’t know. Probably.

[laughter]

C: Oh my god.

J: But, there is a scene where Toto falls down there.

C: Yeah.

J: First of all, shoutout to Africa, Toto’s best album.

C: Oh my god.

J: Sadly ignored in The Cheetah Girls.

C: Totally ignored

[laughter]

J: But anyways-

C: So your -

J: So my favorite scene -

C: Yeah

J: Mostly because it surprised me and I completely forgot that it existed.

C: Really? I think I never forget it because it’s so amazing when they sing him out of the hole.

J: Never forget.

C: Right.

J: Toto -

C: Yeah

J: -when he fell down into this hole

C: And it’s so-

J: -and then they sing him out!

C: They sing him out! Which is-

J: Which is so funny.

C: Powerful.

J: Okay, it is sad and it’s powerful.

C: That’s magic.

J: Like... I cried.

C: That’s feminist magic is what brought his ass out of that hole.

J: I wish I was kidding when I said I cried, but like we all cried.

C: Oh, I literally cried. We literally cried.

J: The two of us and our friend Cindy were watching it

C: Yeah

J: And it we literally all cried.

C: Shoutout to Cindy!

J: Shoutout to Cindy - we love her!

C: We love you!

[laughter]

J: We also love the Costco-sized Riesling we drank that night.

C: Yeah, that was really intense.

J: It was so good. It’s just a bottle of sugar.

C: It was beautiful.

J: It was beautiful, my stomach hurt so bad.

C: Yeah, totally.

J: But I was like crying partially from stomach pain, partially from Riesling -

C: Yeah

J: Partially from this beautiful, moving scene that I totally forgot existed.

C: Yeah, amazing.

J: What was your favorite scene?

C: So, my, I think the best parts, like, the parts that sort of go under the radar when you think about the movie is anytime Drinka is there.

J: That’s indie.

C: She is amazing!

J: Who’s Drinka?

C: Drinka is like -

J: I don’t remember her!

C: She’s like their, um, she’s a very like Whitney Houston-looking character.

J: Oh, yes! Like the, like the theater mom!

C: She’s like their theater mom.

J: Well, not the mom but like -

C: She was like an ex-superstar in some day.

J: The director - that’s always my favorite person.

C: Who is directing the talent show and she was just so-

J: Like I -

C: -moving in her mentorship to the girls I thought that was like really beautiful and she was just funny and like didn’t take shit from them and she did not take shit from Galleria.

J: She’s a great character.

C: Yeah, she’s good and it’s like, this is the importance of like women mentors in school.

J: Yes

C: And when girls are young. It like, that’s important.

J: Yes. I would like to give a shoutout to like ex-stars that are theater directors now.

C: Yeah, thank you for your work

J: Thank god. I had a savior in high school.

C: Yeah

J: Love Mrs. Sanders if you’re out there. We love you. We also love the woman in High School Musical.

[laughter]

C: Oh, Mrs. Darbis.

J: Yeah

C: She’s kind of a bitch, but...

J: Kind of, but still love her.

C: But we know -

J: But they’re always a lovable character.

C: Yeah

J: That’s like an important mentorship role that’s really - yeah.

C: Yeah. And I liked her and I think any moment that they say “cheetah-licious” is just iconic.

J: Yes

C: And I wish that in real life, like, we could do that and it not be weird, but unfortunately, we can’t.

J: I don’t wish that.

C: It’s been my dream, so don’t crush it.

J: Well, I’m sorry.

C: Yeah.

J: But, so-

C: What was your least favorite or worst moment of the movie?

J: My least favorite moment, something that haunts me to this day like when I wake up in cold sweats at night, it’s because I thought about the fact that Raven Simone said “ca-ching ca-ching ca-ching”

C+J [sing-songy]: Bling, bling, bling!

[laughter]

J: And it makes me very upset.

C: But it’s kind of iconic and I don’t think that that would ever be said -

J: I -

C: - in a year that was not 2003.

J: Yeah, that, those are only allowed to be back-to-back in 2003.

C: Yeah

J: Like we actually just, something bad just happened right now.

C: I also think the word-

J: We shouldn’t have put that into the universe.

C: Yeah, we shouldn’t’ve

J: Karma, bitch!

C: Yeah...I mean, I also think the word “bling” was like not alive until 2010.

J: Hotline Bling.

C: I know, but it’s not, it’s not-

J: Literally it was so recently!

C: It’s not bling in the sense of like [said with emphasis] bling.

J: Oh, it isn’t, like it’s not bling as in like dollar sign necklace.

C: Yeah

J: I, I feel you, but -

C: That was a very like, really of its time thing.

J: That like made me...when they said that in the film when we rewatched it.

C: Yeah

J: Like, I, like a shiver went down my spine.

C: I loved it.

J: It hurt me.

C: I fully loved it.

J: I like fully was in pain.

C: But that’s because, that, I saw myself in her and...

J: I think I just really hated who I was as an 8 year old.

C: Oh, yeah

J: And I like-

C: Who doesn’t?

J: Brings back something gross.

C: Yeah, I feel that.

J: Like, I just like immediately like felt like I had like things stitched into my pants

C: Yes

J: And I was wearing like one of those weird tie-over things that like ties over your boobs.

C: Oh god

J: That��s like so ugly.

C: So ugly.

J: Well, like why did we all own one?

C: We all owned one.

J: And why did we own ponchos?

C: Oh my god

J: Also -

C: We need to not talk about that, I also -

J: I am so sorry for bringing that up, that’s like traumatizing. Anyways-

C: Don’t bring up ponchos, don’t bring up gauchos. We’re not talking about that.

J: Okay, ponchos and gauchos don’t exist.

C: They’re gone. I-

J: They’re cancelled. We don’t like cancel culture, but we will cancel gauchos and -

C: We will cancel gauchos.

J: And ponchos

C: Yes.

J: And pauchos and ganchos.

C: Okay

[laughter]

C: Thank you so much for that.

J: You’re welcome. So, what was your worst moment for this movie?

C: I think along those lines of like the ca-ching business was when Raven was like just and like not to be a bad feminist, but she was just a bitch.

[laughter]

C: She was just the worst to her friends!

J: Okay

C: And it was so bad because she literally says to Dorinda...do you remember when she’s like “I don’t want you looking toe-up at the talent show.”

J: Yes!

C: And then Dorinda goes “torn up?”

[laughter]

C: Which is just an iconic moment of dialogue

J: Yes, so that is really-

C: Because no one says “torn up” anymore.

J: We don’t talk about it enough, but like the screenwriting!

C: Yeah

J: Is wonderful.

C: Beautiful.

J: The-the dialogue in this movie

C: Is amazing

J: So funny

C: Yeah

J: It’s very, it’s very of its time. It’s very 2003.

C: But it was like the, like, mm, Raven like you can’t, you can’t be -

J: It’s -

C: -doin’ that. She was just being like annoying and like-

J: Yeah.

C: The worst, like your worst nightmare.

J: She was just being a bad person for a m-

C: But I think we-

J: We’ve all had our moments.

C: But everything gets wrapped up in the end and she is forgiven and I think, like, that’s what’s important. And they work through it and then they’re like amazing.

J: Yeah

C: And they get

J: They get there, you know

C: Yeah and then they go to Spain

J: Yeah

C: That’s amazing.

J: Yeah

C: Great!

J: Wow! We did that.

C: Oh my god.

J: So-

C: Cheetahlicious!

J: Ca-ching, ca-ching, ca-ching

C+J: Bling, bling, bling!

[laughter]

C: We have to stop that immediately.

J: It’s never happening again.

C: Oh, okay!

J: So, to kinda like bring us back, close out this episode, we’re gonna do like a weird question.

C: We love a weird question.

J: We love a weird...I love a check-in question.

C: Okay, we do love check-ins.

J: We really do love check-ins questions.

C: Yeah

J: As you’ll learn, we’re both feminist theory students and we spend a lot of time in like circle practices.

C: Very much, yes.

J: And there’s always a check in and a check out, so we have to have a check out question.

C: Yes.

J: And Charlotte let me pick one th is week.

C: Mhm

J: Which was a mistake.

[laughter]

J: So, my question is my favorite question to ask people. If you could make a body part have a taste and a smell, what body part and what taste or smell?

C: So, I oddly came up with an answer very quickly.

J: I know, you did.

C: I would make fingers taste like lemon bars because how glorious would it be to every time like your finger went in your mouth which I hope it isn’t happening that often.

J: Yeah

C: But, if that’s a trait of the human body then maybe, more?

[laughter]

J: Yeah, well it could be for your enjoyment, for others’ enjoyment.

C: Yeah, oh yeah!

J: Like, yeah

C: Like instead of tasting weirdly salty and sweaty

J: Yes

C: You would taste like a lemon bar but only your fingers.

J: Yeah, it would, I feel like it’d be weird to make it your mouth because like then you couldn’t really eat, you know?

C: Oh, yeah, then everyone -

J: Cause my initial thought was like I want my mouth to taste like mint cause I just love fresh things.

C: Right

J: But that’s bad...I think I would want my finger. I would, I also think I… not fingers, you know, let’s do forearms.

C: Okay.

J: Easy place to like -

C: Yeah, it is

J: -stick your mouth, as you do. So, mine would definitely be forearms tasting like lime.

C: Okay

J: Like fresh lime juice. Like my palette cleanser, you know?

C: So, you could take tequila shots all the time.

J: Literally, like I-

C: You would just have to carry salt with you.

J: My one arm’s lime, one arm is salt.

C: Oh my god. That’s amazing.

J: And I’m just like prepared for a tequila shot but I’m also prepared for like, when you’re on the train and someone smells so bad and you can just kind of stick your face in your arm and you smell -

C: Oh, yeah that would be amazing.

J: That’d be nice.

C: Yeah

J: Yeah that’s what I’d do.

C: That’s a good question.

J: Thank you!

C: You’re welcome.

J: So, hey Char, what should everyone watch for our next episode?

C [sighs]: Oh my gosh you guys, it’s spooky season, so-

J: It is!

C: You are gonna w-

J: It’s libra season also!

C: It’s libra season.

J: I just want everyone to know. I’m very excited cause I’m a libra.

C: We know, yes.

J: I know you all figured that out already, but I am.

C: They’re a libra, we also, so we love libra season. Shoutout to all the libras and it’s also spooky season, so for your, for our next podcast, make sure and go watch Hocus Pocus!

J: A classic!

C: Cause we are gonna be talking about that.

J: Yes

C: Witches are amazing. Bette Midler is amazing. Sarah Jessica Parker weird, but in it.

J: I am so ready.

C: I love that movie it’s

J: And

C: Yeah

J: It’s an amazing film

C: Such a Halloween classic, so.

J: And if you’re living in the Chicago area, the Music Box theater is doing screenings of it.

C: Yes

J: So, you should, if you wanna go see it, go support your local theater.

C: Yeah

J: Go see it at the Music Box. Highly recommend the theater.

C: We’re gonna be there!

J: We’re gonna be there and if you pick the right date, maybe you’ll see us.

C: Yes

J: Woah

C: Oh my god

J: That’s wild!

C: We’re real human beings.

J: Woah, we exist?

C: I don’t think I do.

J: I, well, referencing our last episode, I am just a nose.

C: Oh, yeah

J: Actually cause I’m sick right now so my nose is like, I’m like nose-forward.

C: Yeah, mhm, you are very nose-forward.

[laughter]

J: Yeah, so thank you so much for listening. We’ll see ya in two weeks.

C: Yeah!

J: We’re gonna do every two weeks for now. That’s our plan. So, this has been an Earbud Media Production. Our theme music was produced by Eli Krauss and our artwork was done by myself.

C: Yay!

J: You can see more of my artwork at jenniholtz.xyz.

C: Beautiful.

J: We love that domain. And then, you can follow the podcast on Twitter and Instagram @gaywatchpod and you can also email us at [email protected].

C: Email us! Send us your things, send us your feedback, comments

J: Questions

C: What you wanna see.

J: Literally anything.

C: If you wanna be on the podcast

J: Yeah, if you think this is for you

C: Yeah, we want you!

J: We would love to.

C: Yes

J: Yeah. Charlotte, where can we find online?

C: You can find me on Instagram @charlottebyrd. Byrd is with a “y”. And on Twitter @babybyrd04.

J: Damn

C: Yes

J: You can find me on Twitter and Instagram @queerxoh.

C: Oh my gosh, queerxoh?

J: Yeah, queer x o!

C: Are you queer?

J: I mean, just a little.

C: Okay, just, but only a little? Yeah, okay just, that’s all I can handle.

J: Yeah.

C: Yes

J: Okay, bye!

C: Okay, bye!

[voiceover] You’ve been listening to Earbud Media Production. Earbud Media: Audio for Everyone.

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