#but give them back in a platonic st*ncy way

[jonathanbyersphd]

Season 5 give them back to me 

[andiwriteordie]

First off, I wanna say I adore your take here. Killing Steve at this point would be dumb, and I am love loving your take on him realizing what he was looking for is familial love and comfort like el (!!!!!!!!!) cuz honestly steve in any kind of relationship at this point does not work for me whatsoever

though i do have a question, what do you mean by he's bones coded? context clues can tell me you think that means he's going to die, esp considering his original fate in s1, but which character are you comparing him to? (I'm assuming bones is a character)

hi hello!!!!! i just saw you replied back to my post about rambling about steve and i got so excited because i have too many thoughts lol. so i'll answer this out of order, then jump into my thoughts on it.

i wasn't referring to any characters here, just using that same phrase i think i saw either from who i rb'd from or from the og post! :) just i think there are a lot of arguments for why steve could die, and tbh i REALLY thought we were gonna lose him in s4, so i can definitely see why people think steve is like a for sure going to die in s5. i've seen a lot of people discuss it on here, just because of things such as the st*ncy relationship, how his relationship with dustin was a little sidelined this season, and how his arc is "complete" in a sense.

and i mean with this with so much love in my heart because to me, fandom is so much fun and the best part of it is that we're all allowed to have different thoughts/opinions/interpretations (with the caveat that these opinions shouldn't be harmful to people or people groups) of the media, but i STRONGLY disagree. and here's why.

i was thinking this morning about how interesting of a character steve harrington is when we meet him. he's the stereotypical jock, cool boyfriend for nancy's girl next door kind of trope. he's wealthy and popular and well-loved. on the surface, steve has everything you could want, right? outsider looking in sees a kid well taken care of (familial love), with lots of friends (platonic love), and a beautiful girlfriend (romantic love).

but that's just not the case. because we also learn that steve's parents don't really give a shit about him, and they're never around. we see that his popularity is surface level—that tommy and carol don't actually care about steve as a person and are just kind of existing, because they too are miserable in the overarching hawkins/small town sort of ideal. but then you have nancy wheeler, is is unabashedly herself, who went through basically hell to try and find her best friend, and who essentially kicked steve's ass into shape and showed him... hey, maybe i can be better. (which steve himself tells nancy in s4)

so i think personally, steve has projected his need for love and also the gratitude he feels from being afforded the opportunity and realization to change onto his romantic relationships—particularly his relationship with nancy.

let's rewind for a moment and talk about the other major love triangle in stranger things.

now, by no means whatsoever am i trying to say el and steve's backgrounds are comparable, because while steve does have an implied difficult relationship with his parents, this obviously can't compare to the abuse el endured. they are two characters with separate backgrounds, personalities, and story arcs, and i love them both so much for all those differences. but narrowing it down to how both steve and el are members of a love triangle with a wheeler and a byers kid, and how i believe both steve and el will end up as the member of the love triangle who remains single, i think there's something to be said here about the way parts of their arcs parallel each other.

with el's case, unlike steve, we're never given the facade that she's happy and should be happy. nope, we're introduced to her from the get go as someone who is lacking love of any kind in her life—so much so that she doesn't even know what a friend is. el has never ever experienced familial, platonic, or romantic love, but then she meets mike (and dustin and lucas). but it's mike she first connects with. mike who first shows her kindness and teaches her friendship. this, then quickly advances to something romantic, and isn't necessarily something el understands. but she "learns" it from her time in hopper's cabin by watching movies and tv shows.

similar to how steve has projected his need for love and also the gratitude he feels from how nancy helped him to change, el has projected her own need for love and gratitude for how mike showed her kindness onto their relationship. they stumble quickly into codependency in s2 and definitely in s3, and we see how that damages both of them by the time we hit s4.

so, we now have two characters who really don't have much in common except for the fact that they began their stories lacking in familial and platonic love (and romantic in el's case as well), found it early on in their story arcs, then proceeded to be 1/2 of what are two arguably toxic couples wherein neither one of the partners of these couples are having their needs met. both couples break up at some point. both then are rekindled, or have begun to be rekindled. both are left a bit open-ended by the time s4 ends.

now, let's talk about the other side of the story: the byers brothers. contrary to steve and to el, we meet jonathan and will, and we fairly quickly learn that they do have a support system. they do have familial love (through their mom and through each other), and in will's case, he also has platonic love through the party. the byers brothers begin in contrast to steve and el, because i think they have a better understanding then in that sense of what's familial vs platonic vs romantic. and because of this, their story arcs don't invlove them elevating this romantic love on a higher level than their platonic and familial relationships.

we see this evidenced in how both jonathan and will step aside and push their feelings away from their wheeler sibling in order to preserve their friendship with them as well as do what is best for nancy and mike. jonathan did it in s2, letting nancy believe that steve asked him to drop her home. will gives up his painting and confession and says el asked him to make it for mike. furthermore, we see that neither of them are trying to advance their relationships with nancy and mike further than a friendship. s2 jonathan actually sort of does the opposite and distances himself from nancy until she initiates, whereas s4 will really just shows us that he wants his best friend back.

two other characters, with similar backgrounds (makes sense, they are brothers) with similar understandings of the different types of loves they've grown up with and experienced, are introduced as a "third" member of two love triangle that are left unresolved by the end of the penultimate season.

so, then, to circle back to how this relates to steve, i say all of this to say: i believe both steve and el's story arcs will end with them having an understanding that their platonic and familial relationships and love they've gained are just as valid and fulfilling as the potential for romantic relationships. the other thing i didn't touch a whole lot on is the fact that throughout steve's arc and throughout el's arc, yes, we do see each of these characters gaining a romantic partner, but more than that? we see them gaining friends and family.

look me in the eye and tell me who's most associated with steve harrington. it's not nancy. it's dustin, or it's robin. steve's biggest character growth comes from how he befriends and mentors dustin and then how he befriends and learns from robin. he even makes the comment about 6 little nuggets and having experience because of the party members? and yeah, that right there tells me that steve's character is being developed and built around his familial/platonic relationships. his two most important relationships established in the show are not romantic.

(similarly, and i won't go into it as much because this post isn't about her, el is strongly associated with her relationships to hopper, the dad she finds who helps her heal from her abuser, and max, her best friend who helps her learn how to be el and pursue her own likes and dislikes. again, two of the most important relationships for this character are not necessarily romantic... though we all know my thoughts on how elmax/elumax should totally become canon lol.)

so, now we come back to s4, and it feels like one step forward two steps back for steve and for el. s4 is a season built on grief. on how to react in the midst of change and distance and separation from the people you love. it's a bit ironic that steve has his speech about crawling forwards/backwards because in trying to bring up and hold onto his flame with nancy, he is essentially taking a step backwards.

steve is still caught in this mindset and a lack of understanding the fact that he can be happy, and he can be whole and valued as a person without a romantic partner. it's something he's shown to want, but also? we see in his s3 interactions with dustin that so much of steve's dating life is motivated by his need to be liked and with someone "cool" (which is why, bless his heart, dustin tries to push steve towards robin). he gets frustrated by his lack of having a partner because he's dating and dating and dating, and it just isn't working—so he falls back into trying to recreate that s1 magical feeling of change and of getting to become a better person, which nancy helped to motivate.

anyways, when i look at steve's story, i just don't think it's done yet. i don't think he's learned that he can be happy on his own, and i think he has learned bits and pieces of this along the way as he's loved and helped dustin, as he and robin have loved and helped each other, and even as he and nancy have loved and helped each other. i don't think it's wrong for steve to want these dreams of a big, happy family that is the opposite of what he received growing up, but i just think that a satisfying end to steve's arc will be him realizing that he doesn't have to rush into that. that good things take time, and god, look how happy he is right now, surrounded by his child friends (who aren't children anymore? holy shit the kids he babysat are now 17-18 years old?) and by the friends his age (because robin duh, but also i am here for steve and nancy becoming friends and putting their romantic relationship in the past, and i am ALSO here for a steve and jonathan reconciliation since that has not been touched since their s1 fight). the found family he's gained throughout his story is enough, and he, like el, i believe is going to represent that form of familial and platonic love in the relationships he's part of.

stranger things is such a good story in that it covers familial relationships, platonic relationships, and romantic relationships, and i'm pretty confident the duffers are going to do both love triangles justice and slot them into their right places. because within both the older teen love triangle and the younger teen love triangle, there is a lot of love to be shared—just a bit of a mismatch as to what type of love goes where.

(also. this is not really part of the serious analysis, but i'm sorry. i think the dumbest, shittiest thing you can do in a show like this is complete a character's story arc and show how they've grown as a character, then just kill them off with no motivating reason. how would steve's death progress the plot forward? and if you're going to say it would give them all a reason to keep fighting, i'm gonna call bs on that because i think there are plenty of other reasons these people have to keep fighting. also their canonical main fighter, el, is not that close with steve. so. next.

i also didn't touch on how steve's death would impact both dustin and robin, and you know what, i'm also gonna be bold and say nancy. you wanna tell me they'd kill two brother figures in dustin's life? you wanna tell me they'd kill one of robin's first friends, the first one she opened up to with a secret she was so scared of telling? you wanna tell me that they'd cause nancy to lose another friend—the same friend who was there with her the night that nancy's upside down related trauma began with the loss of barb? NO. it would be such an injustice to steve's arc and to other characters' arcs, and i will die on that hill.)

[autistic-robin]

dynamics i would sell my soul to see in s5:

1. platonic madwheeler.

aside from the fact that these two are literally two sides of the same coin, i think their onscreen chemistry is a delight. they have so much in common and i feel like their repression issues are so similar. if they had one single heart-to-heart about max’s feelings for lucas you can bet your ass she’d help mike realize he’s in love with will. also— max’s perceptiveness (being in tune with/intuitively understanding other people) would really help mike beat the oblivious brain-full-of-rocks allegations. also i need them together for comedic reasons.

2. robin and jonathan + steve and argyle (with nancy supervising)

robin and jonathan’s dynamic has yet to be explored but they’re so similar that i feel like they would either be best friends or literally a hair away from ripping each other’s throats out and i need to see this onscreen for my mental stability. they’ve both got that lone-wolf, nobody-understands-me vibe and they also share the same class struggles that nancy can’t relate to or understand— i feel like even if they were enemies at first (you can’t be the dark brooding mousy-haired town pariah, that’s MY ROLE) they would warm up to each other super quickly. they’re also both really On It in terms of understanding situations/investigating shit, so. platonic dream team.

steve and argyle are also characters who’ve never been introduced and i feel like they would immediately love each other lol. they’re both himbos, both have strange homoerotic undertones in their scenes with jonathan, and they both toss their personal lives aside to be there for their friends. they also end up helping in unexpected, often unintentional ways, which is sexy of them. i feel like they would annoy the shit out of jonathan and robin and i want to see that play out. preferably while nancy glares at all of them like an exasperated mom.

3. platonic henderhop.

no thoughts just vibes with these two. all their little moments (“she’s our friend and she’s crazy!”; “teeth” *touches dustin’s teeth*; the scene in s3 where they reunite in starcourt) are precious and i wish their dynamic was more heavily explored. since they both recently lost their best friends (eddie and max) & both have survivor’s guilt, i feel like they should get a scene together talking through that pain. maybe reassuring each other that they aren’t to blame for any of it. idk man they make me emotional.

4. unhealthily codependent qpr stobin.

we simply did not get enough of them in season 4. st*ncy revival took up a good chunk of screentime that could have been dedicated to focusing on steve and robin’s friendship and i am and always will be furious about that. i think to rectify this they should make steve and robin attatched at the hip in s5. fiercely protective of one another in the way they should have been in s4, fighting tooth and nail back-to-back, saving one another. i just feel like steve’s arc needs to be about the platonic love he’s found after leaving tommy and carol in s1, and giving these two the attention they deserve would be a great way to show that to the audience.

5. joyce-hopper-murray polycule.

need i say more.

6. stonathan.

give them closure god damn it. let them talk everything out. maybe even give them a few questionable scenes like the ronance ones in s4… just. heavy implication. it’s what they deserve.

7. will and max.

platonic will and max are to platonic mike and el, which is why i feel like this duo would be unstoppable together. soft gentle secret badass + hard-edged fiery secret softie? that’s a five-star dynamic right there. they would kick ass together, they would bully mike together, they would fight the patriarchy together and i really believe that. also the fact that they’ve both been face-to-face with vecna and really experienced the horrors of the upside down could give them a deep understanding of one another and i think that’s something that deserves to be explored— especially since they’re also both abuse victims.

8. platonic elmike.

i want them to break up amicably and gently and lovingly. i want el offering mike the non-judgemental acceptance he desperately needs. i want mike apologizing profusely to el, and finally being able to love her without the hero-worship once he realizes he only loves her platonically. i want their connection to only be elevated and deepened by this understanding and closure. also i want el to softlaunch byler. that is all.

9. lucas and steve.

their mom stances are the same. steve came to lucas’ basketball games. they are both himbos. please give them screentime and further establish lucas as an important part of steve’s found family PLEASE!!!

10. nancy and mike.

what happened to their i-hate-you-but-i-would-kill-for-you sibling bond in s1? what happened to “no more secrets”? all i want is for nancy and mike to have a meaningful, in-depth conversation about their home lives, and hiding things, and not being able to love people the way they want to. and being scared to death of losing the people they do love. i want mike reassuring nancy that barb didn’t die because of her, and i want nancy reassuring mike that he won’t lose will. i also want them to glare pointedly at their dad together.

12. steve and el.

this dynamic is really unexplored and i feel like these two are paralleled so often that it would be criminal not to see them interact. a possible scenario i’d love to see: el post-finale going to steve for romantic advice (because that’s what all the kids do throughout the show) and confessing that mike hasn’t been able to tell her he loves her. steve assuring her that it’s okay, but that she should focus on being independent. that sometimes friendship and family can matter even more than a romantic relationship. that sometimes, people we think we love romantically are actually just people we really care about. and that being their friend instead of their partner doesn’t weaken that bond at all. and then el looking pensive, thanking him, and then immediately asking how he got his hair to grow out so long.

[digestionsack]

Thought Bubble

*Disclaimer: This is anti-St*ncy. I am in no way bashing St*ncy shippers (I will respect you regardless of what you ship provided you don’t go out of your way to be disrespectful), but proceed at your own risk.*

So I was kind of mulling over this whole St*ncy thing…we know that the life Steve wants—6 kids, Winnebago, sort of “white-picket-fence”—is not the type of life that Nancy feels would suit her. It’s giving Nuclear Family vibes, and Nancy, having seen the impact of trying to live that life in her parents’ misery, knows that this life would not be best for her (btw this is not me bashing Steve for wanting that life. Steve is obviously a much better person than Ted Wheeler and if Steve likes the Nuclear Family thing and it will make him happy then he should go for it).

But I feel like if I’m going to talk about St*ncy’s incompatibility as a whole, I need to talk about how Nancy isn’t the right person for Steve romantically just as Steve isn’t the right person for Nancy romantically. And to examine that, we need to go back to when they were actually dating—in S2. One scene that stands out to me in particular is the scene in Nancy’s car where she and Steve are going over Steve’s college essay. It’s clear that Nancy doesn’t think it’s very good (don’t get me wrong; I’m not saying she’s actively being an asshole about it or trying to be mean), and Steve sees this, so he gets really down on himself and starts acting exasperated (probably to evade and deflect his feelings of negative self-worth).

Now, Steve’s behavior in this scene could be shrugged off just a kid insecure about their essay, which would make sense, but the way he is portrayed as feeling inferior to Nancy when it comes to academic strength is something important to note. I find that to be a really interesting writing choice.

Because…Steve has been shown to have great platonic relationships with people who are academically stronger than him. Hell, his two main relationships are with Dustin and Robin. Dustin, who is a proud, self-proclaimed nerd and Robin, who is multilingual and casually cracks Russian codes. With Dustin and Robin, Steve never feels lesser-than. When Robin affectionately calls him a dingus, Steve rolls his eyes good-naturedly and comes back with a witty retort. When Dustin uses Sherlock Holmes quotes to tease Steve about being oblivious, Steve shrugs it off and the moment is used as comedic relief.

What’s more, Steve is shown to value his own strengths and qualities when he’s with Dustin and Robin. Because he knows that when they tease him about being a “dingus,” they aren’t actually intending to call him stupid (not that Nancy ever intended to insinuate that Steve is stupid, but again I say, it’s all about compatibility). When Steve isn’t focusing on his own insecurities, he finds things about himself that he feels confident in. Steve is the one who cracks the music portion of the Russian code, even when Dustin and Robin casually make fun of him. Steve prides himself on teaching Dustin hair care and how to talk to girls. What I find interesting is really one of the only times Steve verbally praised himself in a genuine manner when he was with Nancy was when they were broken up, and even then he was sort of self-deprecating.

“I may be a shitty boyfriend, but it turns out I’m actually a pretty damn good babysitter.”

He truly does not see himself as smart around Nancy, and although she tries, she can’t understand or really help him feel better about himself.

So no, I don’t think Steve and Nancy will get back together come S5. No hate to St*ncy shippers (you do you, I’m sure you guys are very nice), but I personally don’t want them back together. Steve needs a romantic partner who understands and can relate to him just the way he is, and who makes him feel confident in his own skills and qualities. Nancy needs someone for whom she doesn’t need to put a buffer on her ambition, who will not hold her back when she goes after what she wants. Steve and Nancy are great characters—just not with each other.

And like @there-was-a-hole-here-itsgonenow said in one of my previous thought bubbles about Steve, it would be so impactful for not only El to chose self-love, independence and platonic/familial relationships over romantic ones at the end of the show, but for Steve to also take a step back from romance—especially since he’s been shown to be constantly chasing girls since S1. Like @there-was-a-hole-here-itsgonenow said, having a young man who has been previously known as a “ladies man” of sorts ending up prioritizing platonic relationships over romantic ones would just be so great to see.