#but anyways i suppose i have a connection to thor 2011.

[unityrain24]

claims to fame are so funny. like yeah my aunt's new husband's best friend is clark gregg. but what does that have to do with anything

[saintcarrionn]

what HAPPENED in the finale that makes everyone freak out like this?

OH BOY

prepare yourself

so basically: we have loki. a character beloved by fans since 2011, when he first appeared in Thor as the troubled, queer-coded, distinctly 'other' second prince in Asgard, a very very masculine, warrior-centric society. not only is loki more sensitive than Thor, the classic blond muscle guy who everyone loves, he also favours magic and sorcery as his preferred weapons - things that are thought to be lesser and cowardly in Asgard.

- side track to point out that thor here is arrogant and regularly talks about committing genocide on a race of giants called the Jotun -

then one day, after thor has been an idiot of even bigger than usual proportions, loki finds out that he's not Odin's real son. he's a Jotun, taken from his family by Odin after a great battle and raised as his son.

this obviously fucks him up, right? because odin says he wanted him to unite the realms, and THAT must be why he took him and raised him as his son, to be a political pawn.

so eventually he commits suicide. except he doesn't die, he falls through a wormhole and is captured by thanos, who tortures and brainwashes him and influences him with the mind stone.

he gets sent to earth with an army of chitauri to attack and take over midgard, all the while being influenced by the mind stone. what's interesting is that there are indications that he's actively working to sabotage the attack, by setting up a plan that is almost bound to fail, even though the mind stone's influence will not let him overtly stop

the avengers defeat him, and this is where the story diverges into the loki series.

so, to recap: we have one very traumatized prince who is famed for his intellect, cunning, and sorcery

you'd think this would make a great tv show wouldn't you. yknow, exploring his motivations and trauma

but no.

no, instead we get his entire character retconned, his mannerisms destroyed, and his motivations annihilated. he's confirmed to be bisexual in a show that actively works to humiliate him, treat him like a clown, and mock his character. it literally tells every single person who likes him that he's a dumb fucking fool with no bravery who betrays everyone he loves, WHEN THAT IS CANONICALLY UNTRUE.

and then we have the mess that is sylvie. sylvie is the real main character of the show, a loki variant who has no character apart from yelling and punching things, who has none of loki's finesse, is introduced badly, and who we have no emotional connection to. and we're supposed to prefer her!!! and you know I would actually like her if she had a character beyond being the literal female equivalent of thor!!

anyway.

the finale is an hour of exposition dumping culminating in a gross forced kiss between sylvie and Loki (who are literally THE SAME PERSON) and then apparently we're getting a season 2?

I do NOT want it

[okiedokievariantloki]

On Continuity, Plot, and Story: Each Thor Movie (including Loki on Disney+) Is Telling A Different Story...Part 1: Thor (2011)

One of the things I hear a lot in fandom is how a lot of characterization in the MCU is inconsistent throughout the movies.  This goes especially for a lot of the earlier Marvel movies (Iron Man, X-Men, 2000′s Spiderman) before MCU was even a thing, but all of the films to some extent fall prey to this.

First off, this is not going to be a ship-centric post, so please don’t take it as invalidating or supporting any relationship/romance/pairing. That’s not the point, so if you’re looking for that kind of content, I suggest you look elsewhere.

Secondly, I’m not a hardcore fan of the MCU. I’ve watched all the movies and shows I will be talking about today. In fact, I have watched them in order of release because my beloved is a big comic book fan and I support them even though I’m more of a fan of silver age DC comics, weird science, indie comics, and seinen manga.

Third, I’m not a *huge* fan of how a lot of superhero comic books have characters literally vomit paragraphs of extrapolation in speech bubbles, but I understand the reason for it, and I grew up in the 90′s, when a lot of superhero comics basically decided to fanboy all over Frank Miller’s Sin City aesthetic and so a lot of superhero comics were both super grimdark and really violent, which was not the kind of stories I preferred to read.  Add that to the time I watched that truly horrible Captain America movie from the 80′s or something on afternoon broadcast TV where he wears a motorcycle helmet and The Red Skull gave me nightmares for a week because their interpretation of the character is a guy whose face was just...glistening muscles and it was horrifying, and you can see why I might be a bit skeptical of the whole spandex-and-punching-baddies thing.

Anyway, let’s get started or this is going to be a rogue thesis paper.

You might laugh when I say this, but when I first heard about the Thor movies, it was on the back of Dr. Pepper cans.  They had cans with images of all the Thor characters on it, and I remember looking at Anthony Hopkins as Odin and wondering why he was such a round butterball.  The outfits *were* kind of ridiculous, but they also felt oddly overly shiny if that makes any sense.  Like they weren’t wearing clothing that actually made a lot of sense for battle.  It felt like they were trying to pull from the comics (which, to be fair, looks like someone decided to combine Conan The Barbarian with psychedelia, so I am fairly certain the costume department was doing their best), but also from the late 2000′s aesthetics popular at the time.  I remember there were short “making of” shows on TV, including interviews with the cast, and I was familiar with the director (he also made a film version of Hamlet that he starred as Hamlet in) so from that information alone, I could pretty much guarantee that this movie was going to be like Shakespeare on steroids with a good hint of self-congratulatory auteur nonsense.

And I was not disappointed!  The parts on Earth clashed terribly with the parts on Asgard, and I found it really funny because it was kind of like that meme where the detailed horse drawing gets more and more sketchy and terrible.

Like so: 

You could really tell that the director just wanted to make an entire movie on Asgard without Thor going to Earth at all.  The Earth parts were cringey and made me flash back to the early Iraq War Bush years (if you don’t know what I’m talking about it, it was a Whole Imperialistic Jingoistic Patriotic Bullshit Thing that I don’t want to go into).

The fight scenes were...ok...but they were also just...exhausting.  I find this to be pretty much the case in most early to mid 00′s superhero movie.  They are so obsessed with having The Big Fight To Make The Hero Look Really Powerful that the destruction ends up going on for so long that I get physically tired (I think I legitimately dozed off when Superman and Zod were fighting in the reboot film).  The character development was ok, but once again, every character wasn’t really a character, they were an archetype.

And so, I wanted to stop here for just a second and go into that a bit more.

Thor 1 wasn’t really written as a Thor movie.  Remember, the guy who had his fingers in this thing from day 1 is a Big Shakespeare Guy, and it shows. In plays like Hamlet, we don’t look at Hamlet and go “wow, I wanna headcanon Hamlet’s favorite breakfast and what he wears on Tuesdays.”  (Though, of course, you are welcome to do so if you like- friendly reminder that Hamlet is in the public domain so go out there and write about him all you want!).

Hamlet isn’t really a “person” so much as an assortment of plot archetypes (prince, coming home after time away, depressed, vengeful, intelligent, calculating) wearing funny shorts.  Nobody watches Hamlet because they want to know what Denmark was Like Back Then just like nobody thinks that Romeo And Juliet is a Very Accurate Depiction of Verona in Its Time, Actually. (Also, as an aside, for some reason, I always had this sneaking feeling that Shakespeare “borrowed” tropes from Oedipus and put it into Hamlet, but that’s an essay for another day).

In the movie, Thor isn’t meant to be a person. He’s a list of tropes because he is the Heroic Protagonist Archetype.  In a lot of ways Thor’s personality and character (his pride and hubris) are part of the traditional heroic storyline.  The hero has to have a fall before he can pick himself back up and reach the climax and resolution of the Hero’s Journey.  Having him thrown out of his element and humbled by making him “mortal” (I’m still not sure what that means, but it doesn’t matter! It’s a plot point that serves the story, not the other way around!)

I do think that one of the reasons Loki is set up as a brother instead of as an uncle or older character is because Loki is known in the comics, and the whole “neglected brother who backstabs his golden boy brother to take the throne” thing is definitely a plot point in Hamlet.

I could see where the director and his team were stymied by the rules thrust upon them by the property they were trying to use.  The story itself is a pretty standard heroic journey with other stuff sprinkled in.  Loki has to be at least slightly villain coded for most of the film to serve the story, and the audience must unquestioningly believe he is “sneaky and devious” because it serves the story of Thor going through the growth he needs in order to be a hero.

BUT ALSO, Loki can’t be made into an irredeemable villain because in the comics as well as movies, these characters have to be allowed to have enough open-ended characterization to allow for them to be slotted into other stories.  If Loki is a complete black-hearted monster, then the only part he can play in any heroic journey story is to die definitively at the end.  By pulling back before making him go too far, it does weaken the archetype a bit (as absolute evil is a lot more cathartic to dispatch once and for all), but it serves a specific narrative purpose.

Which brings me to character design and how the audience takes it.

I remember when LOTR was first coming out in theaters.  You had all the macho dudes going off when Gimley and Aragorn came on screen hacking and slashing, and then Legolas would show up and you’d hear a ton of screams  from the teen girls in the audience.  Feminine coded male characters are often really popular with with AFAB people, but they’re also popular with queer folks, especially villains due to queer-coding (villains often dress better and there’s a history of effeminate and queer Othering in media and society), so that’s definitely a Thing). 

One of the main reasons I think this might be is that most films with a main male lead tend to be really man-character-heavy in general.  If there’s a female character, she’s usually cast as the “cis-white-generically attractive love interest archetype” which literally exists specifically because the sausage fest of male friendships with close connection (in spandex) is very, very easy to turn into a gay romance.  There is a reason one of the first and enduring fanfic pairings is Spock/Kirk.

A few more archetypes:

Thor’s three friends are basically versions of god Thor:

- A glutton who likes to boast/tell stories

- A battle-lusting solder who refuses to speak while he’s killing.

- A womanizer/narcissist

There’s also Lady Sif, who plays the roll of The Girl, No Homo on Asgard.

Thor’s parents, who are supposed to be incredibly powerful and capable, are basically kneecapped for story purposes as well.

If you want to ask yourself “why is Thor 2011 so irritating” it’s because it’s trying to tell a story despite the characters.

Well, actually...I lied.

It’s trying to tell TWO stories.

Oh yeah, that’s right.  This is where the plot thickens.

You see, when this movie came out, people were highly derisive because it was an unknown property.  Most people are familiar with Captain America (even if it was only the nightmare fuel movie from the 80′s) and they know who Iron Man is.  Even the Hulk is pretty ubiquitous, though the main issues with Hulk are tied to the fact that pretty every superhero film that came out in the early ‘00′s appeared to be contractually obligated to include an hour long origin story because apparently nobody in the history of anyone is familiar with comic books other than a handful of [insert comic book nerd stereotype here] and in order to make a cash cow, the superhero genre needed to be attractive to South-Park-and-Jackass-watching-teens in the mainstream. If I can remember the movie posters and commercials correctly, most of it was being billed as a pure-action flick with clips of the fight scenes and manly men punching faces, because that’s basically the male power fantasy right there.

No think, just rage and beat because he good guy self insert, and that bad guy.

So basically, the whole Asgard part of the movie is a movie in and of itself that’s being rushed through to hit specific plot points- it’s an origin story, telling you who Thor and the Asgardians are so that when they tell the story about Thor on Earth, the entire theater of (and let’s not kid ourselves, this is for an America-centric audience) macho suburbanite young adults who take one look at Thor in his weird costume and weird speech don’t then start making up emasculating terms to refer to him and then walk right out of the theater because the movie is too lame and genuinely nerdy to be comprehended by the apparent dude-bro majority.

This was yet again another example of “We need to make this popular with the wrong demographic for money purposes so we need to spoon-feed them non-threatening hyper masculine narratives so that they don’t take one look at a property that is in effect a magic buff dude with long fabulous hair wearing very little and flying around with a hammer over a rainbow bridge and talking like Errol Flynn while he does it.“

I mean, they tried (insert gold star meme here) by making Jane a scientist (with all the PhDs, because more degree is more smart amirite guyz?), and the meet cutes where she keeps running him over with the car is funny enough, but in the end, she is still falls into the “OMG LOVE INTEREST AFTER LESS THAN 24 HOURS MY HERO” category and that is...annoying.

I mean, it’s better than Lady Sif, who...let’s face it, we don’t care about because she doesn’t matter and I literally had to look up those other guys’ names up on Wikipedia after watching them all get merked in the first five minutes of Ragnarok.

In any case, the movie doesn’t really even end in a satisfying manner because it’s trying to tell two different stories, and the stories themselves don’t really work well with one another.  The whole Frost Giant/Loki part of the movie is largely just meant to be a hamfisted way to villain-code him from the beginning (if the blatant feminine coding doesn’t give that away).  And the part at the end where he dies is, as far as I can tell, supposed to be a tragic end for Loki. 

Of course, though, we all know Loki comes back, and characters in comic books are quite well known for dying and coming back from the dead when conveniently needed for a plot anyway, but you could definitely feel a huge tonal shift from the begining (Asgard/Jotunheim) to the middle (Earth) to the end (Asgard).  It’s almost worse than having an Asgard origin story with a focus there and then moving to the superhero story and ending there, but they needed to have an excuse for Thor to be in the Avengers, so...there ya go.

Watching this movie is like watching one movie on one channel, flipping over to find another movie you like better, and then flipping back at the end of the second movie to find yourself in the last fifteen minutes of the first film.  It’s jarring and the tonal change reduces the impact of the climax of the film.

In the end, the stories being told here are warring with themselves, which means that there are way too many unanswered questions, and a lot of the characters you’re supposed to hate/dislike (from a dudebro spoonfed perspective) end up becoming interesting and easy to fill in the blanks for.  Loki is a prime example of this.  His character does have a fair amount of screentime and his backstory has to be at least somewhat developed because it’s a driving force for the story of Thor’s hero journey.  Loki provides some of the conflict that keeps the story from stagnating, and his character contrasts well with the hyper-macho, entitled Thor character by having more feminine characteristics, being thoughtful, cunning, and making plans.  In a lot of ways, the intense love/hate (but still love one another) relationship between the two (and the “it’s not incest because my sibling’s adopted” porn trope) is one reason why people ship them so hard.

Loki is popular with a lot of AFAB folks because he represents a lot of common AFAB experiences- being smart, trying hard, yet still treated condescendingly and less than worthy by authority figures, and never good enough as The Dude Who Just Showed Up. A lot of people deeply identify with the casually abusive and dismissive way that Loki is treated, as though he is a monster, despite him trying so hard to be accepted.  He falls into the abusive family trope under the Scapegoat archetype, but in the movie, there are explicit plot points that try to explain why he “deserves” to be scapegoated (thanks mainstream dude bro movie focus groups!). His character is often treated as sinister and suspicious long before he actually behaves in an antagonistic manner, which doesn’t help things. A lot of how Loki is treated in the film follows very closely to how a misogynist society treats AFAB folks. 

Even if we discount the comic books and mythological lore, the bottom line is that this movie is designed to tell a certain story, and in this story, a certain type of person is lauded and shown as the example of Who To Be, and a certain type of person is reviled and minimized and shown as an example of Be Afraid Of This And Don’t Be This Or You Are Evil Garbage. This mirrors how marginalized people are treated in society so heavily that it makes a lot of sense why Loki is so beloved by fandom despite not being the focal character of this film, and why people have often deeply identified with Loki or associated deeply personal things with his character in fanart, fanfiction, and headcanons.  A lot of people see his character as an excellent place to do introspective work and to work through personal traumas.  I have also seen a fair amount of people look at Loki as a Sad Pale White Boi Who Needs to be Saved, which isn’t exactly true from a canon point of view, but I can see how there’s plenty of reasons to write or imagine the character that way, or to place him in situations where he can be validated or find romantic fulfillment.

Beyond Loki’s role in this film, you can definitely see that most of the characters are victims of the story they find themselves in, and this story is a Shakesperian tragedy coupled with easily digestible Hit Bad Guys With Hammer action segments.  In a way, I would almost consider something like the Asgardian parts to have been better suited to a mini series, while the actual superhero movie part would be Thor being sent to Earth and then doing a Thing there. But that wasn’t really a thing back in 2011.

Thor is a very, very long, convoluted film because of the two stories that it is trying to tell while pretending that it’s only one. It’s so long that the novelization actually ends during the fight in the desert on Earth. And, speaking of long, this post is too, so I think I’ll post this now and if there’s interest, I’ll talk about Dark World and Ragnarok in subsequent posts. 

Feedback, as always, is appreciated.

[helplesslyfictional]

Loki Fanfiction - Remember the Old Ways, Chapter 7 - “Disorder”

Author’s Note: I apologize for the lateness of this chapter, since I've been trying to update every week. Since I haven't written in a considerable amount of time, I had difficulty with the structure of this and the subsequent chapters. Any input is always appreciated, since creators don't like to create in a vacuum!

Chapter Summary: Thor adjusts to meeting Sophia. As Loki's future weighs on him, he distracts himself. Pairings: None! These stories are focused on family relationships.

What characters, then?   Loki, Thor, Odin, Frigga, OCs [Sophia]

When? Pre-Thor 2011: From Asgard to Earth, will go through Thor 2011 Warnings: SPOILERS for Avengers Infinity War (under cut), mature themes, emotional trauma and abuse, swearing, anxiety, mentions of mental disorders, medication Taglist: @loki-the-fox; @i-am-loki-and-now-i-speak-up; @trickster-grrrl; @deviantredhead; @mylokabrennauniverse; @leanmeanand-green; @juliabohemian; @latent-thoughts; @lucianalight; @nox-th-lk-sf; @be-a-snake-stab-your-brother; Please let me know if you would like to be added/removed from tags and I’m more than happy to do so! If I added you it’s because I’ve been tracking your blog/work and have noticed you might be interested. :)

AO3 story link; Wattpad

tumblr: Chapter 1 / Chapter 2 / Chapter 3 / Chapter 4 / Chapter 5 / Chapter 6

Thor was breathing heavily as he assessed Sophia, his hand at the ready to summon Mjolnir from his side. Loki knew that Thor might call the guards if he didn’t explain quickly. Not taking his eyes off her, Thor asked tensely, “Is this who you were talking to?”

“Yes,” said Loki quickly, stepping toward Thor and placing a hand on his arm cautionarily. “She’s not a threat, Thor, she’s not even here.”

Thor looked at him sharply. “I felt her touch me.”

“Yes, well, I haven’t figured that part out yet.” After everything that had happened, Loki felt worn out. However, he wasn’t going to forget his manners. “Sophia, meet Thor, Crown Prince of Asgard.”

She looked at Loki with uncertainty, pursed her lips, then stiffened and gave a slight bow. “It’s a pleasure to meet you, your majesty.”

Loki was impressed with how easily she slipped into such decorum, particularly with their emotional, casual meetings, and made a mental note to ask about it later.

Thor looked Sophia up and down. She was wearing a simple grey shirt, black trousers, and socks. “What are you doing here? This is a private conversation.”

Loki stepped in front of Sophia. “It was actually our private conversation before you barged in,” he said defensively. “That was why I didn’t let you in the door.”

Crossing his arms, Thor gave a sly smile and drew in a breath. “Oh. I didn’t know you were pursuing a woman, you should have told me.”

Sophia’s eyes widened. “Hey!” Loki heard her say, before he grasped her arm to stop her retort. “You’re mistaken, brother, we were merely trying to understand the communication we’ve been having after Osk’s enchantment flared.”

“Has it been troubling you, Loki?”

“No, brother, it has been extraordinary.” As Loki explained what they had learned earlier, Sophia seemed to relax a little more. Thor’s stance also changed from one ready for combat to one of interest. Outside, the sky-shroud began to gather clouds, softening the noonday sun and spitting out a few snowflakes, which landed on the balcony and promptly melted.

“Why this Midgardian woman?” said Thor, stroking his beard. “Why did Osk connect the two of you?”

“Thor, we talked about the third child in the prophecy with Osk. I think that Sophia is - possibly…” Loki didn’t finish the sentence as he realized he hadn’t told Sophia about any of this. He wasn’t ready to tell her.

But if he only had eight years left, then they needed to find out quickly.

Thor’s eyes darted between them both. “Our sister? But...she is definitely not Asgardian.”

Sophia gave a start, uncrossing her arms. “What? Wait, what? What did you say?”

Loki opened his mouth to answer, but Thor was faster. “He didn’t tell you? A prophecy gives the possibility of us having a sibling.”

“No! Did you say sister?”

“Yes, we - “ Thor started, but Loki was finally able to speak over him.

“I didn’t tell you because we aren’t even sure ourselves,” he said, giving Thor a meaningful glance. Thor caught it and gave a little nod.

“Sure of what? There’s nothing to...look into.” She laughed in disbelief. “There’s absolutely no way that’s possible.”

“She did say she was born of her parents,” Loki said to Thor.

“Right! I mean, my mom has pictures of being pregnant with me. Pictures of me in the hospital as a baby, nail clippings, hair clippings, even, which is - admittedly - a little creepy, but hey, she keeps a baby book? She even tells me about my birth every birthday. Every birthday. Which gets weird, ‘cause I’m like 30 and tell her, just hold on, please, I really don’t want it, but she even does it over the phone…”

Loki snapped his fingers. “Sophia!”

She shook her head, saying, “Sorry. Sorry.”

“Maybe Osk got it wrong,” said Thor. “Since she was near death.” He absent-mindedly stroked his abdomen, a motion Loki hadn’t seen before from his brother. “If she could be wrong then perhaps I am as well.”

Loki sighed, rubbing his temples. “It just doesn’t seem like she would be wrong, Thor. The enchantment didn’t just form this connection, it made me...switch...souls, for lack of a better word. When you were sparring, with Sophia when she was...walking, I suppose.”

Thor closed his eyes. “So that’s what happened. It was disconcerting; I thought I was having another vision.”

“Yes. And while I was speaking with you, Sophia - Sophia swapped with me.”

Thor raised his eyebrows. “When?”

Sophia stirred. “I asked you about your second vision.”

Loki tapped his fingers against his leg as he wished he became impatient. “It’s signs like that which make me think that this is deeper than just...accidental communication.”

“How am I now able to see Sophia now?” asked Thor, frowning and moving closer to her. She stood straighter and raised her chin slightly.

“You’re asking me as though I’m an expert,” said Loki with an ironic laugh. “It seems like it was something Sophia did, to be honest, but I’m unsure.”

Sophia eyed Thor, whose height, similar to Loki’s, was comparatively significant. “I was feeling your emotions, seeing your vision...memory. I don’t understand it, but being around you is...strange.”

“I am very imposing,” Thor said, glancing up at Loki with a smile.

Loki snorted. “Depends on your definition of the word,” he said.

Sophia looked annoyed. “This is not a joke!” she said, going and sitting in a chair. The princes stiffened, and she got up quickly. “Sorry, I forgot about that etiquette. Good to know it’s the same between worlds.” She shook her head. “You are throwing around all these ideas, all these serious things, and I’ve been trying to just listen and absorb. But my body’s been taken over, I’ve been seeing things, and I’m here! On Asgard, meeting literal gods! For a few moments, I was even Loki himself - it’s hard to even comprehend.” She took a deep breath and closed her eyes. “Everything I’m feeling is so strange, but in some ways it just feels so - right.”

To Loki’s surprise, Thor nodded. “Though I do not know how to describe it,” he said.

Sophia closed her eyes. “It’s like when you are writing with pen and ink, scratching against the surface of the paper. Or the hum and fluctuation of a bow just after you release the arrow. The tactile clack of machinery or the resonance in your chest when listening to an actual instrument played. Things that just...feel right.”

Thor nodded, looking at Loki. “Like the vibration of a sword,” he said.

Loki considered what they were saying, and knew he’d felt this a few times. “Holding a healing stone,” he said in response, aware that Sophia wouldn’t know what he was talking about.

Sophia suddenly sat up, looking to the side. “I have to go,” she said in a worried tone, then vanished.

Thor gave a start, and Loki looked at him in confusion. “What is it?”

“I don’t know.” Thor gave a tired sigh. “These past few days have been difficult, particularly with these visions, that’s probably what it is. I hope that by...sharing them...it will help, somehow.”

Loki pursed his lips, the sadness from before coming forward as he imagined Thor’s vision. “Thank you, brother. Perhaps we can make the best of things before then.”

Thor smiled sadly. “I hope so. Until we find out more, can we make sure this stays between us?”

“As long as you don’t threaten me over it, I think that can be arranged.”

Thor nodded. “Thank you, brother,” he said seriously. With that, he walked to the balcony and flew off with Mjolnir, leaving Loki alone in his room with nothing but his creeping thoughts.

----------------------

After attending a concert in the afternoon, Loki retired once more to his room. Normally he would feel peaceful and relaxed being out of sight from his family and the public, but it felt odd, after the intensity of that morning, to be by himself.

Eight years. Thor’s proclamation hung in the back of his mind. Could his future be changed? It seemed that if it couldn’t, Time would not have attempted to balance out this ‘great wrong’ Thor predicted. There would be no reason to have visions, to be claimed as ‘Children of Time.’

Eight years. Eight years until he no longer existed in the universe. Until there was no Loki. Eight years, then, to try and prevent what Thor had seen.

Thor could see the future. Despite knowing about it for a few days and its dour tidings, the confirmation was exhilarating. Loki was himself a little jealous. Seeing the past would likely be useful, but seeing the future was far more prestigious. Even the Seers seemed to have been renowned for that ability. Knowing the past could come through study and careful observation. Thor generally seemed to get the best of everything anyways, but Loki knew he shouldn’t begrudge his brother such a invaluable gift. Even though it would have lent Loki some measure of usefulness if he were to be an advisor at his brother’s side, as he expected.

Although he couldn’t expect that any more. He and Thor would have to discuss what to do prior to the coronation, if they could. Thor was becoming more busy in preparation, and so was becoming more difficult to pin down.

As the evening set in, Loki became restless, trying to keep his mind off his demise. He kept coming back to the idea of visiting Sophia again, even though he felt it was too soon. They’d all done so much that morning.

But what could it hurt? The worst she could do was say no, or be in a situation where it wasn’t appropriate. Briefly, Loki wondered if Sophia had told her parents. Given her first inclinations that she was insane, he thought that she probably wouldn’t risk a similar reaction.

This time remembering to ward himself, even casting a circle to silence his noise, Loki closed his eyes and remembered what it was like to be with Sophia. Barely a second passed when he appeared next to the ragged, flowered sofa. Sophia was sitting on it, reading.

Loki didn’t want to surprise her. “Sophia,” he said softly.

She looked up and smiled, then grew serious. “I thought maybe you’d take some time to process what you learned.”

“Process?” asked Loki, sitting cautiously on the sofa, “I don’t want to think about it further right now, honestly.”

Sophia studied him, then closed the book, setting it on the coffee table. “I can understand that. Sometimes it’s better to wait until you’re a little more ready to do so.”

“I don’t know as I’ll ever be ready,” Loki said, leaning back. “Aren’t you worried about your parents?”

“They’re not home right now, otherwise I would be.” She turned and put both her legs on the couch, adjusting until she was comfortable. “You’re really just looking for something to do, aren’t you. For a prince, it seems like you should be more busy.”

“I’m the second son,” said Loki nonchalantly, “so I have considerably fewer obligations. Plus I’ve made sure I’m not available to be given commitments in the first place.” Sophia grinned. Loki looked around at the room, aware of how cramped and dark it was. “Why do you live here?” he asked.

“I wondered when I’d have to talk about this,” said Sophia. “I live with my parents because I have no money.” She looked at his eyes, seeming to check for judgment.

“Why are you worried about my reaction?” he asked point-blank.

She hesitated. “I suppose you’re from a different society. I don’t know what your culture values, but mine values wealth, hard work, and independence. All of which I’m not doing at an age when many people are ‘supposed’ to be independent.” She did a strange thing with her fingers when she said the word ‘supposed.’

Loki imitated the motion. “What’s this?” he said, unable to keep back a smile.

She laughed. “It’s used to…” she stopped and thought. “I’m trying to put it into terms for someone who doesn’t use our punctuation. It’s used to separate a word and indicate it’s a name for something that doesn’t fit.”

“Like sarcasm, then.”

“In some ways.”

Loki imitated the motion again, which made her snort with laughter. “Asgardian society prizes valor, strength, and bravery,” he said. “In many ways, I also fall short of those virtues when measured up.”

Sophia cocked her head, thinking. “I think it depends on your definitions of those values. Strength doesn’t have to be physical.”

Loki gave a wry laugh. “True, and hard work doesn’t have to mean labor. But if societies are to judge, it’ll be at face value.” He looked around at the room, somehow disturbed that it was the same as his previous visit. “Do your parents not like windows?”

“Ha, they do, which is why they live upstairs,” Sophia said sarcastically. “No, I chose to live down here so that I didn’t have to spend time in my old bedroom. It works out better anyways since I get my own bathroom down here.”

Loki recalled his experience earlier. “Did your bedroom have scalloped decorations on the walls?”

Sophia’s eyes widened. “Yes. How did you know that? Did you see it in my mind?”

“From when I was connecting with you this morning, yes. I think we may have - we may have had similar experiences as children.”

At this, Sophia shrunk back. “I certainly hope not,” she said softly. “What was it that you experienced?”

Loki shifted, suddenly uncomfortable. He didn’t mean to touch on something so deep. He began to worry he might bring up something that might make Sophia distraught. But he wasn’t going to lie about this. “When I was a child, I felt as though I couldn’t...express my emotions without either angering my father or...well, my mother…” He didn’t want to say it. “My mother seemed not to listen to me. So I would try and deal with my feelings alone, staring at scratches on my tiles.”

Sophia pursed her lips, tears glimmering in her eyes. “Yes,” she said softly, then cleared her throat. “I felt very much the same way. My father would get angry, too, and my mother seemed not to care. It was so frustrating, but if I showed my emotions, I was suddenly…”

“Considered too emotional,” finished Loki.

Sophia nodded. “I was told I was overreacting. So I went to my room instead and tried to figure out how to deal with it. That’s why I didn’t want to spend time in my old room. If I look too closely at that wallpaper, there’s just...too much emotion. It’s overwhelming.”

Loki nodded. “I’ve covered mine with a carpet, but I can never forget they are there.” For a moment they shared a look of understanding.

Sophia stirred. “Want to see outside these boring walls?” she asked, a false cheerfulness behind her voice.

“You mean there’s a world outside of here?” Loki asked acerbically. “I thought this was the entirety of Midgard!”

“Stop it!” Sophia said, laughing.

She led him up a set of stairs, where she slipped her sock-clad feet into a pair of oversized boots before grabbing a coat. “It’s the middle of winter here,” she said, then pulled open the door. A wave of cold air blew in as they stepped out into the evening.

The sun was already past the horizon, tinging the clouds and the snow below with pink. The house was surrounded by forest on a hill, with the road leading to further houses that disappeared into the trees.

Not the most spectacular view, but after the past few days, it was a welcome one.

“Welcome to Midgard,” said Sophia, breathless at the cold. “Not as pretty as Asgard, but hey, it’s got its charm.”

Loki gave a smile. “It’s lovely.” He looked up at the stars instinctively before reminding himself he couldn’t figure out his position as he could on Vanaheim.

“Are you cold?” asked Sophia. “I was wondering if you’d feel it.”

“I feel it, but it’s not a problem for me,” said Loki. “You’re about to ice over, I think.”

Sophia nodded, jumping up and down briskly. “I should’ve put on a hat and gloves!” With that they ran back inside.

As Loki moved back to the couch, Sophia stopped by a side table and took a pill. “I needed to do that before I forgot,” she said, grabbing a blanket and wrapping it around herself before sitting down. “Now I’m good.”

“What was that for?” Loki asked curiously. “Sustenance? Pleasure?” Seeing her reaction, he stopped. “I suppose I shouldn’t have asked,” he said, a stab of worry going through him.

She pursed her lips. “It’s medicine.”

He should have guessed that. “I apologize, I’d forgotten that mortals need such things.”

“Yes, of course, it’s just a trivial thing,” she said sarcastically, rolling her eyes, then hesitated. “Although, since you’re connected to my soul - or brain, or mind - you should probably know.”

“Know what?” Loki felt Sophia’s shame conflicting with fear.

“I don’t know if you can feel it or not, but my mind’s not like the majority of humans’. There’s several things going on, but the primary issue is an illness called bipolar disorder. It’s part of the reason I was having such an emotional time when I met you. It’ll take my mind from very, very dark states of mind to blissful ones.”

“I’m trying to understand,” said Loki, frowning. “As you’ve probably surmised, we don’t deal with this issue. I wasn’t even aware there could be illnesses of the brain. If I recall correctly, when you were feeling ill, you believed your mind was playing tricks on you. What you’re describing, however, seems different.”

“Yes, it is different. As you probably know, emotions are chemically created in the brain.” Loki nodded. “This disorder affects your emotions, which influence your thoughts. So even though I don’t want to, my illness makes me feel deep sadness, which can bring up emotional pain. At times though, it can make me feel...ecstatic and I make irrational decisions.”

Loki squinted, crossing his arms. “Interesting. Then the medication cures it?”

Sophia smiled wryly. “I wish. No, it’s supposed to help regulate my emotions. It’s not working, so I think I’ll have to ask my doctor to find a different medication. Each person is different, so we just have to search for what works.” She met Loki’s gaze. “I hope it doesn’t affect you, I’d hate for anyone to feel this way.”

“I’ve just been feeling the emotions,” said Loki, “but they don’t last. I don’t think our connection has changed my perceptions in any way, so I don’t think I’m acting differently.”

“Good,” she said with a sigh.

“Thank you for telling me, though,” said Loki, “It’s important to examine everything possible related to this phenomena.”

“Well, it wasn’t simply for observational purposes,” Sophia said wryly. “I did, you know, want to make sure you were alright.”

Loki pretended to gasp dramatically, clasping his heart. “You...actually care...about me?”

Sophia gave him a playful whack on his arm. While it certainly broke protocol, Loki didn’t care. It was nice to have someone around. “Of course, silly,” Sophia said, laughing.

It felt good to see and feel her brief joys, particularly when he was causing them. She wasn’t afraid to laugh, at least, not in his company, a stark contrast to the seriousness held around his position. The only other person he could really joke with was his brother.

Loki excused himself for a moment, bringing his focus momentarily to Asgard. It had already gotten dark, and he hadn’t lit any lights or braziers in the room, which was ominously stark and still. He wanted to get back to Sophia as quickly as possible, so he forewent lighting anything to grab a pitcher of wine and goblets.

When he returned his focus to her, she was looking at him, amused. “What is that?”

“Asgardian wine,” said Loki simply. “I thought you might enjoy trying it.” He set the goblets on the table and began pouring the rich red-purple liquid out.

“I technically shouldn’t because of my meds,” said Sophia with a sigh.

Loki looked up at her, wide-eyed. “You’re joking.”

“Just because I’m not supposed to doesn’t mean I won’t,” she said, reaching over and taking a goblet. “One can’t just ignore the few pleasures of life we get, especially if they’re pleasures from another world.”

“That’s the spirit,” Loki said jovially, sitting back and savoring the first sip.

He felt a flicker of surprise from Sophia as she looked at her cup. “This tastes different than a typical red wine!” she said, pausing as she rolled the wine in her mouth. “I didn’t start drinking until after I got my master’s, so I’m in no way experienced, but this is...rich? And definitely more alcoholic.”

“It seems you have a low opinion of Midgardian wines.”

“I think it’s more of a lack of experience with any good wine,” Sophia replied. “Even when I was a diplomat, they didn’t serve the expensive wines except at the most prestigious parties. I only got to attend one of those.”

Loki looked at Sophia in surprise. This woman was living in a cellar with no funds; he could barely imagine her in such a prestigious position. “I must’ve heard you wrong, did you say you were a diplomat?”

Sophia nodded and took another sip. “For four years, yes.” She squinted at Loki. “Does Asgard have diplomats?”

“We don’t have formal diplomatic positions,” Loki said, trying to envision Sophia as an envoy. “If you were a diplomat, what are you doing here, with...nothing?”

“I don’t know how diplomacy works in Asgard, but here we serve in appointed positions as a job. I lost my job after - “ she hesitated. A wave of her fear and sorrow coursed through Loki as Sophia looked at her wine. “After some bad experiences in my assignment, I developed a different disorder. I struggled to continue working for another couple years, then I - I gave up and came home to try and get better. It’s not been working, clearly.”

“I’m sorry to hear that,” said Loki. While he didn’t understand these illnesses and disorders, he could understand that the mind had a terrible, powerful sway over one’s experience. It certainly made his theory that she was their sibling more dubious. “A fall of status so significant must have been discouraging.”

Sophia looked at him in confusion. “No, no. Status doesn’t have anything to do with...anything. I don’t care about that. I don’t even really care about not working, or not having money.” She rolled the goblet in her hand, watching the wine shift inside. “I think what was most frustrating was not having the flexibility to keep my job while trying to manage my health. As a result, what was most discouraging was having to fight for myself while not having the strength.”

Loki looked down sadly. He knew too well what that was like, to fight, to lack the strength, to give up and give in to the demands of others. Remaining passive in an effort to preserve his sense of self. “I understand.”

“You do?” Sophia said bitterly. “You’re a prince of Asgard, the god of tricks and magic. With all of that at your disposal, how do you know what it’s like?”

“I fight for myself all the time,” said Loki, his anger rising. “I don’t know if you noticed I have a brother who chooses to do as he will and impose himself on others, and a father who demands what I cannot give. I learned long ago that if I was going to get what I wanted, I had to get it in other ways than asking for it from my family or even from others. I deceive and trick them because I otherwise don’t have respect or even love.” He caught himself before spilling anything further. Careful, Loki, don’t say too much. Information runs the court.

Sophia looked him up and down, undoubtedly feeling his response. “I - I didn’t realize. I’m sorry.”

Loki shook his head. “Don’t apologize, there’s nothing to apologize for. It makes you seem weak.” Immediately he chastised himself. You’re sounding like Father.

Finished, Sophia put the goblet down on the coffee table. “I’m still learning there’s a distinct difference from the stories I’ve heard and the person that you are. The same goes for your brother...and the rest of your family. I suppose I should have realized that earlier.”

As the evening waned onwards, discussed further the subject of the Odinsons’ findings regarding prophecies, Seers, and other topics of relevance. Sophia showed a keen curiosity and put ideas together quickly as he filled in the gaps of her knowledge.

Before long, their conversation was interrupted by the slam of the door and footsteps. Sophia shooed Loki off back to Asgard, where he slept more soundly than he expected that night.

[ethanalter]

Throwback Thors-day: How Eric Allan Kramer became the first live-action Thor

The Incredible Hulk (Lou Ferrigno) meets the Mighty Thor (Eric Allan Kramer) for the first time in live-action form in The Incredible Hulk Returns (Photo: Everett Collection)

As the mightiest members of the super-team uniting Earth’s mightiest heroes, Avengers Thor and the Incredible Hulk have long had a love-hate relationship. As in: they love fighting each other to prove their strength, and hate being the one to lose. Marvel Studios’ latest blockbuster, Thor: Ragnarok, gives the Asgardian warrior (Chris Hemsworth) and the mean, green smashing machine (Mark Ruffalo) by way of performance capture) one more chance to punch each other into oblivion with a centerpiece sequence set in an alien gladiatorial arena. We won’t spoil who wins, but suffice it to say it’s not an entirely clean victory, which means only one thing: Rematch!

Two decades before this current clash of champions, Hulk and Thor tangled on television in the 1988 TV movie, The Incredible Hulk Returns, the first of three sequels to the popular series starring Bill Bixby and Lou Ferrigno as scientist David Banner and his growling alter ego, respectively. Picking up two years after the events of the show, the plot brings Banner into contact with former student Donald Blake (Steve Levitt) who regales him with a whopper of a story: while on a fact-finding mission to Norway, the diminutive Blake came across an ancient hammer that awakened the Norse legend, the Mighty Thor, played by Eric Allan Kramer in his first big role. And Thor is none too happy about being stranded on Earth with only a nerdy researcher for company. In their first encounter, the Thunder God’s fury rouses the Hulk-ish side of Banner’s personality, leading to an epic wrestling match.

Thor vs. Hulk in Thor: Ragnarok (Photo: Marvel Studios)

In classic Marvel fashion, this fight eventually turns into a team-up, with Hulk and Thor uniting their powers to take down a crime syndicate. And as Kramer reveals to Yahoo Entertainment, that inaugural adventure was supposed to lead to more derring-do for Thor. “The Incredible Hulk Returns was really a backdoor pilot for a Thor series,” the now-55-year-old actor says, adding that it would have been more of an Odd Couple scenario than The Incredible Hulk, with his Thor and Levitt’s Blake working together to outsmart and outfight criminals. But those plans were scuttled in the wake of the famously lengthy 1988 Writers Guild of America strike that took a heavy toll on existing shows, as well as those still in the works. “Any chances for a series were shattered [by the strike],” Kramer remembers. “Obviously, you’re disappointed when it doesn’t go, but you come to learn fairly quickly that’s the business.”

It didn’t take Kramer long to find gainful employment outside of Marvel anyway. A working character actor for three decades now, he’s since graced such TV shows as Down Home, Good Luck Charlie and AMC’s upcoming series, Lodge 49, as well as feature films like Robin Hood: Men in Tights and American Wedding. (Contrary to IMDb rumors, though, he’s never made a return visit to Asgard. For a while, his filmography included a cameo in 2011’s Thor that Kramer confirms never happened. “I think the only people that didn’t realize I could have had a cameo in that movie were my agents,” he jokes.) This Thor-sday, we reminisced with Kramer about being the first live-action Thor (not counting Vincent D’Onofrio) and facing off against the muscled mountain that was Lou Ferrigno.

Yahoo Entertainment: How did the role of Thor come your way? Eric Allan Kramer: It was literally one of the first things I auditioned for when I first came to Los Angeles. I think it was as much as a surprise to my agent as it was to me when it all came around. I was completely green to the whole process of auditioning and castings so it was a great learning experience, on top of being very exciting. I was big into comic books growing up, and I was a huge Spider-Man fan. So I was well versed in that whole universe.

Since you were familiar with Thor from the comics, you clearly knew that the version of the character we see in The Incredible Hulk Returns looks substantially different. How did you feel about that as a comic book fan? I liked the idea of making the character a little more gritty, and a little more where he would actually be from. I also liked that the armor was pretty much real; there wasn’t anything plastic about it. Unfortunately for my stunt double, it led to a few stitches; he kept catching his chin on the chest plate. The helmet was also as heavy as anything. The big joke was that it kept sliding down the front of my head. In the running scenes, I was always fighting to keep that helmet up.

Was it heavier than the hammer you had to carry? I would say they were pretty close! The whole outfit was metal and leather; it was a serious costume.

Did you miss having a cape? I think a cape would have only added to my somewhat uncoordinated tendencies. As it was it, it was hard enough to move around in that thing; adding a cape would have been one obstacle too many.

Is that your real hair we see on camera or did you have a wig? My hair was actually fairly long at that time, and I was blond, but it was just too thin, so that was all wigs. And the wig actually made me realize that my hairline was receding! I went in to get it made, and the hairstylist made this skull cap as the base for the wig. A couple of producers were there, and she asked them, “Where do you want his hairline? Where it is now or where it used to be?” Then she said to me, “Would you like to see where your hairline used to be?” She took a red marker, had me scrunch my head up, and drew a line that I swear was about an inch below where my hairline was! You live with yourself every day, but that was the first real sign that things were changing on top of my head.

Kramer in a 2015 episode of Good Luck Charlie (Photo: Ron Tom/Disney Channel/Courtesy: Everett Collection)

Speaking to the gritty depiction of the character, your Thor doesn’t talk in the kind of flowerly Asgardian language present in the comics. I think that Nick [Corea, the screenwriter] wrote a character that loved life, and wanted to taste everything life had to offer after being locked away for so long. That was pretty much where the character was coming from. The idea was to make him accessible and trying to find that line of being from somewhere very magical and landing in the real world.

Unlike Bill Bixby and Lou Ferrigno, who were rarely in the same frame together, you frequently interacted with Thor’s alter ego, Donald Blake, played by Steve Levitt. What discussions did you have about dramatizing that relationship? They’re weirdly connected in the fact that they’re tied at the hip. Each character got to share something from the other character, and learn and grow and do all of that. Because everything came together so quickly, a lot of the play between Steve and I happened on set. We would certainly get together to talk things out and toss ideas back and forth. In fact, I remember when I tested with him; I’d already been cast and they were casting his role. Steve came in and went off-script, just throwing things at me that I threw back at him. It just worked.

Who did you film your first scenes with: the Hulk or David Banner? The first stuff we shot was in the lab, so it was pretty much everyone — Bill Bixby, Lou Ferrigno, and the whole crew. They were both great; Bill was exactly who you thought and wanted him to be — just one of the nicest, gracious, most giving people I’ve ever met on set. Lou was terrific. I believe he said that he was the biggest he’d ever been when he came back for that movie. He was just a mountain!

Did you feel any pressure to be as big as Ferrigno? I was in shape, but not certainly in shape by today’s standards, you know what I mean? This was 1988, and the superhero build had not come in yet. The minute you get a role like this where you know your shirt is going to be off, the first thing you do is get in the gym and try to cram years of body neglect into a couple of weeks, hitting it hard every day. One day, we were doing publicity stills for the movie and Lou walks in, looking phenomenal. He caught me drinking a Gatorade and gave me crap for it, because of all the salt that’s in it. So we’re standing together, and I was feeling okay about how I looked. Then Lou goes, “So… do you work out?” [Laughs] Like I had done nothing! I laughed and said, “I’m trying, Lou. I’m trying.”

Let’s talk about the Thor vs. Hulk fight scene. How was that choreographed? And did Ferrigno break character between takes or did he only grunt at you throughout shooting? [Laughs] He was on and off. Every once in awhile, he’d crack a joke about something. Those were some long days in armor being thrown around the set. Back in the days before CGI was common, we’d use the trick of blurring in and out of scenes. But we were going at it like a regular stage fight; it was all the real deal. The guy doubling Lou had to jump off the building. I forget how many stories up he was, but he had a huge fall down to the mat. The guy doubling me was hanging from helicopters and being thrown through windows and all the rest of it. He took some punishment. I was there for all the big moves, but I was taken out of the stuff that would have halted production if I had gotten hurt.

Did you also chug that whole glass of beer on camera when Thor and Donald go to the biker bar? I remember I drank a lot! I didn’t drink the whole thing, but I drank most of it. It was all near-beer, like O’Doul’s, which I’ve actually sort of grown to love over the years. That whole scene was just a blast to shoot. In fact, I used it on my demo reel for a good couple of years afterwards.

The other great beer-related gag is Thor stabbing cans of beer with a kitchen knife. Yeah, I think that sent waves of panic through most of the crew, who were thinking I was going to cut my fingers off. Me, too, actually. It wasn’t until you actually did it that you realize, “This was a really good idea in my head, but it that could have gone seriously wrong.” One slip, and it’s a whole different scene. We only did it the one time, because it just freaked everybody out.

Do you like to tell people that you were the first live-action Thor? I don’t know if I like to make it known, but I’m definitely proud of it. It was my first big thing, and it’s something that a lot of people really enjoyed. I’m glad I have a very small slice of the Marvel universe that I can call my own. It’s funny how often I still get recognized for that. I think it all depends on when it reruns. And, of course, when the movies start coming around, suddenly people get a little nostalgic and they go back and take a look.

Are you a fan of Chris Hemsworth’s take on the character? Oh my God, yes! He’s fantastic. He’s got the look, the sound and he’s funny. I see all of the Marvel movies, and I’m blown away by what movies can do now. It would have been nice to maybe get some CGI abs back in the day! [Laughs]

Thor: Ragnarok features another epic Hulk vs. Thor smackdown. Why do viewers like watching these two heroes fight? And did you advocate for your Thor to win a round? They’re perfect combatants. One is so completely primal, and the other is so mythological. But I was just a guest in his house, man. You want to pummel me, I’m fine with that!

Had the Hulk appeared on the Thor series, though, you would have won that fight. Yeah, if he’s on my turf, then maybe I get to win that one. [Laughs]

The Incredible Hulk Returns is available to rent or purchase on Amazon, Google Play, iTunes and Vudu. Thor: Ragnarok opens in theaters Friday.

Watch: Director Taika Waititi talks gratuitous shirtless Chris Hemsworth in ‘Thor: Ragnarok’:

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