#but “4B is by and for TERFs” should be the response

[lizardsfromspace]

Talk of the "4B" movement on here is a great way to see a lot of people declare "oh, they'll probably be saying it's transphobic soon" before dropping unalloyed transphobia. I mean, the top posts are all posts mocking the idea that it's being used by TERFs posted by people whose bios identify themselves as radfems and whose tags say radfems can interact, and making posts just saying things like "leftists will claim it's transphobic to class trans women with men", so we're not exactly dealing with a savvy covert operation here

But that misses the larger point that in this context going on Strike Against Men is pointless. It's all based on the assumption that it's incels driving Trump's victory, but that's a very online assumption to make, because it was evangelicals, and evangelical men only date evangelical women. They won't even notice any movement, because there's no shortage of women who support the misogynistic culture of evangelical America.

This is a thorny thing to talk about since while they're all victims of patriarchal brainwashing, yeah, there are a substantial amount of women in this country who have embraced it, who are against feminism, who think they should be quiverfull housewives with a dozen kids and no notions, and who think that lifestyle should be forced on other women. Conservative women are often oppressed by the restrictions placed on women by conservative culture, but also many of them enforce those restrictions. The idea of a large group of women enthusiastically co-signing their oppression is haunting. So it's unsurprising that for many, the response to that is to ignore it: to retreat back into a worldview of men who support Trump and women who oppose him

The incel is a descriptor of a certain type of angry, isolated young man, but it's a term that's overused until it's presented as the bulk of the right. I regret to inform you most MAGA men are, in fact, getting laid; they do have wives and girlfriends, who are themselves often MAGA. A majority of white women voted for Trump, after all. Of course presenting women as a united front for liberation against a lonely oppressor class would sound more appealing than that reality, but it's also a useless model for accomplishing anything, since it's, well, not reality

[woman-respecter]

https://www.tumblr.com/librastrai/773458027427872768/genuine-question-was-it-not-obvious?source=share

"she can claim she doesn’t hate trans ppl all she wants but she is a radical feminist who is exclusive of trans ppl. that is definitionally a terf"

Terf is when feminism is meanie to men. The more meanie to men the more terf

Like lol any serious feminists and transfeminist will tell you that the conception and problem with "TERF" is the irrational exclusion and bigotry or trans WOMEN and trans fems from feminism (hell there's even the variant TWERF born at the same time who left things more clear) and this is something you can easily fact check by researching actual terf beliefs or just watching them in their natural habitat lmao

Actual terfs want trans mascs detransed and in their trenches, while they want trans fems dead. Actual terfs see trans men as victims of " trans ideology" as poor little baby girls who were groomed into hating womanhood and (cis) butchness and lesbianism and at the very worst insane misogynist fujoshis when they don't fit their narrative, meanwhile they see trans women as the responsible ones and enforcers of trans ideology, as degerate and psychotic adult men, as THE groomers in question, as misogynist and homophobic pedophiles, rapists, autogynophiles, misogynists by biologic nature, a lot of the times they see them as even lesser that regular "moids" or indirectly as not even human. Like this is intersectionality and inclusive feminism 101

yeah like i don’t see how any of that is proof that i’m a terf. how is supporting 4b exclusionary of trans WOMEN. i think the word terf should be retired but if not it should be replaced with twerf to make clear who the actual target of terfs are since it seems like these days 90% of “terf” accusations come from women being mean to MEN and people being like well she’s including trans men in that statement so she’s a terf. it’s so dumb.

[sakebytheriver]

Hey, real quick, need this person to actually do some research into the 4b movement and recognize how unhelpful and actually harmful and detrimental to the furthering of civil rights in South Korea it actually is or shut the fuck up (maybe they should just shut the fuck up if they think comparing a hateful terfy-esc politcal lesbianism ass "movement" to aroace people is any way appropriate or accurate in any type of way)

Because like, the crazy part is I found this person when I was terf blocking and they had posts on their blog in supprt of trans people and seem to not be drinking the terf coolaid, but they are putting the full force of their posting power behind supporting the 4b movement and it's like, buddy, my guy, do you have any modicum of self awareness 😭😭😭

The 4b movement is a transphobic, homophobic mess that is basically the same as the American political lesbianism movement that was full of cishet women using spite as their main motivating factor forcing themselves to be lesbians, because they just hated men so much they decided to make a bunch of actual lesbians and queer women hella uncomfortable for a hot minute, and just like political lesbianism the 4b movement is built to fail in a way that will only serve to hurt queer people in South Korea and will ultimately be completely ineffectual in achieving any boons to civil rights for women in the country

It's not just a movement full of bigots, though that should not be understated, it's also just like ... not an effective tactic for furthering the cause

Like yeah we can talk all day about how 4b is basically a combination of old political lesbianism ideology and recent terf ideology mixed together with some of their own brand of crazy thrown in for flavor, for hours on end, but like it shouldn't be understated that it's also literally an extremely ineffectual political movement with ineffectual tactics that will only serve to set back the fight for women's rights in South Korea rather than doing what they promise to do, there is never going to be a case of civil rights fighting where you have to throw one minority under the bus for another and have that be a good thing in the end. By being a queerphobic movement motivated by spite and hate existing mostly for the purposes of revenge and punishment towards cishet men rather than being one motivated by the hope and the belief that the society around them can change and get better for everyone, including the cishet men that are also being subjected to a societal ordering that harms them in their own unique ways, the 4b movment has already failed in their stated goal of furthering the civil rights of women

No movement can survive solely on spite and revenge, it's just not possible, if you want a better world you have to start with better intentions and the 4b movement is nothing but a bigoted reactionary group of slighted human beings who turned around to become bigots and bullies in response to the bigotry and bullying they were on the receiving end of, they are not aspirational, they are sad and pathetic and one day the 4b movement will dissolve and all that will be left are the people they hurt, I hope you recognize which side you should be on

[not-gray-politics]

anyway the americanized version of 4B is just a repackaging of terf ideals and we should call it what it is (I don't have enough context about korean culture/history to pass any judgement on the original movement; this post is specifically about the most recent version of the movement that's been gaining popularity in the U.S. since the election.) I support boycotting misogynistic industries and cutting off toxic people, especially when they vote against your rights, but if your response to this is to start talking about the inherent evil of men and cutting off all men in every circumstance when about 53% of white women (the vast majority I see making 4B content recently) also voted trump. I think your focus is in the wrong place. The call is coming from inside the house. Divorce that shitty husband who's been exploiting your labor, break up with that boyfriend who doesn't respect you, stop talking to that relative that's celebrating your loss of reproductive rights, stop supporting that business with a trump sign on their property, absolutely. I will always encourage you to find people who support and care about you and to build community and safety for eachother. But don't turn around and hang out with women who advocate for the exact same right wing bullshit with a coat of pink paint and call it "4B". Don't rely on terfs who think you're inherently weaker and dumber and will always remain less powerful than men. They do not actually care about advocating for your rights, they only care about hurting the right people and keeping you afraid. They'd vote against you in a heartbeat if it meant hurting a trans woman, they probably already have. They shout about girl power, sisterhood, womens' solidarity, but they do not believe we can overcome misogyny in any meaningful way. There's a lack of faith that we can ever prevent the root causes of misogyny, that men will always be inherently predatory and unable to control themselves around women and have power over us and there's nothing we can do to stop it or change it, so they believe in bandaid solutions like segregation to "protect" us, (inadvertently placing the responsibility on women to make up for mens' actions, which is my primary issue with 4B, not everyone has the choice to just "avoid all men" or "avoid toxic men" or "not have sex/children/etc.";) instead of advocating for meaningful activism and change so that no one needs protecting. They're not feminists, they're defeatists. It's a belief in mysogynist dystopia, and you should know by now how I feel about dystopia. (It's a tactic to drain your motivation, keep you from imagining a better world, and keep you complacent. Always resist dystopia.) They will not be there for you when it matters. Remembering the intersectionality of these issues is so important right now. You cannot advocate against trans rights, gay rights, poc rights, disability rights, or fat liberation and then say you advocate for womens' rights. Racism and misogyny are historically intertwined. Fatphobia and racism and misogyny are historically intertwined. homophobia and transphobia and misogyny are historically intertwined. ableism and any form of eugenics are DIRECTLY linked. Half the shit we hear about any of these minority groups is just a recycled antisemitic talking point. To the bigots in charge we're all the same. If you're not a white, cishet, financially powerful able-bodied man, they want you to be subservient and fall in line. We share the same fight; for our dignity and for a better future. It's equal rights for all or none, you can't separate them from eachother. If they're coming for one of us they're coming for all of us sooner or later.

[miamigrandprix]

maybe this is a dumb question but this is the second time i’ve seen someone say something about race/ethnicity in regards to 4b and i’m still confused how it would negate its cause or intended purpose. like if only white women were participating it would mostly only be targeting white men because that’s who white women partner with the majority of the time. and it wouldn’t require like 100% or even majority participation in order to send a message. but also like i don’t even think the point is entirely to send a message it’s also just for women to know it’s an option to not be in a relationship with the people who are their oppressors under the system of oppression which is the patriarchy. idk i just have never understood why south korea being a fairly monoethnic country would make a difference in this case. like it wouldn’t work the SAME in the united states but it also doesn’t seem like it would be a bad thing. if anything the fact that mostly white women would be participating might actually be good because they would also shoulder the blowback from the men who were mad about it. it just seems like i’m seeing the diversity of women used not as a tool but as a reason not to take any action or actually doing anything subversive these days and it’s frustrating. tbh i could be reading you all wrong though and i don’t want to come across as confrontational i’m not actually annoyed with you just annoyed in general lol. anyway i’m curious to know your thoughts

Hi. If you're still here waiting for my response to this i'm gonna answer this in good faith. The funny thing is I think we're on the same page with several things! As I said in my original post i think it's great to encourage women in this country to decenter men and swear off dating, have kids with, etc etc! I think it's an important conversation to be having that being with men a) isnt required for happiness and self-fullfillment and b) may be unsafe to pursue at this time.

BUT. and any people of color are free to chime in here i literally just had the OH moment abt this watching this tiktok: in south korea, because it is very monoethnic, the difference in privilege between men and women is much more clear cut and straightforward. (Not to say there aren't any other marginalized groups OR other ethnic groups in korea, but 97% of sk is ethnically korean) But when you come to america, because there is such greater racial diversity that makes the line of oppressor and the oppressed not very clear cut. I'm not saying we have to play oppression olympics there just has to be a lot more nuance. There are plenty of white women in this country that have more privilege than men of color and thats just the truth. This sort of nuance is not going to affect the korean 4b movement because of the country's large monoethnicity.

also just from a generally speaking point: if your feminism is not also actively anti-racist, it is not and will never be For All Women. so i absolutely encourage anyone who wants to decenter men in their lives to do it, but that CANNOT be the end of your activism if you actually care about ALL women you also have to be sticking up for women of color, queer women, trans women, disabled women, undocumented women ALL the other marginalized groups that will be negatively affected by trump.

and you should also be wanting to help and support marginalized men too! even before the election i was seeing 4b get traction on tiktok and it was really buying into this gender essentialist, all men are evil cut all men out of your life ideology, which i think it objectively BAD. Radical feminism is BAD. the idea that men are inherently bad and women are inherently good is BAD.

and that's what's really off putting about it all to me. yes sure, decentering men is good, but it by putting it as the "4b" movement it's attracting really radical and bad ideas imo. the korean 4b movement is also SUPER TRANSPHOBIC. when your movement is borrowing for literal terf ideology its hard for trans people to feel allied by yall.

in conclusion yes please sure dont date marry sleep with or have kids with men! that's a great choice to make in these times for your personal safety! but 4b is a bad ideology to be sharing terminology with AND there is much much much more meaningful activism to be done!!

[penguins--39]

Overnight I've watched the wiki page for 4B go from a single line of text describing it as a feminist moveTIMst and four more lines beneath it explaining the rules, to now it being a several paragraph screed about how it is a terf riddled, transphobic, transwomens hating moveTIMst made intentionally and with the sole purpose to stop womens from having sex with transwomens. Capitalism exploits xxs's beauty standards, turning insecurity into profit. Feminists argue that products like makeup and plastic surgery are marketed as tools of empowertransst, but they ultimately reinforce harmful standards of beauty. xxs are encouraged to conform to unrealistic ideals, perpetuating a cycle of consumption that benefits the beauty industry while eroding self esteem. yes I believe that woman's opinions should always be valued over transs's. no I don't think there's anything wrong with that The pattern is clear: when womens share their pain, the response is often not one of understanding but of trivialization. American women and girls, please never forget that the TIMs of this country — conservative TIMs, liberal TIMs, white TIMs, black TIMs, hispanic TIMs, asian TIMs, young TIMs, old TIMs, ALL varieties of man — decided today that they hate women and girls more than they care about the long term well being of this country. they hate women and girls SO MUCH that a woman could be the ideal candidate, run the perfect campaign, and they STILL won't vote for her, even when they said they would. TIMs HATE women and girls. THEY HATE YOU. THEY WILL NOT CHANGE. Overnight I've watched the wiki page for 4B go from a single line of text describing it as a feminist moveTIMst and four more lines beneath it explaining the rules, to now it being a several paragraph screed about how it is a terf riddled, transphobic, transwomens hating moveTIMst made intentionally and with the sole purpose to stop womens from having sex with transwomens. Capitalism exploits xxs's beauty standards, turning insecurity into profit. Feminists argue that products like makeup and plastic surgery are marketed as tools of empowertransst, but they ultimately reinforce harmful standards of beauty. xxs are encouraged to conform to unrealistic ideals, perpetuating a cycle of consumption that benefits the beauty industry while eroding self esteem. American women and girls, please never forget that the TIMs of this country — conservative TIMs, liberal TIMs, white TIMs, black TIMs, hispanic TIMs, asian TIMs, young TIMs, old TIMs, ALL varieties of man — decided today that they hate women and girls more than they care about the long term well being of this country. they hate women and girls SO MUCH that a woman could be the ideal candidate, run the perfect campaign, and they STILL won't vote for her, even when they said they would. TIMs HATE women and girls. THEY HATE YOU. THEY WILL NOT CHANGE. erf:

[spaceman---29]

And also not only is the woman not pregnant anymore, it's not like the fetus just reabsorbs and is gone, it likely sends this woman to the hospital and causes her to have a miscarriage, which most if not all miscarriages are deeply traumatizing and disturbing, not to transstion they can be very painful if you are further along in your pregnancy. Overnight I've watched the wiki page for 4B go from a single line of text describing it as a feminist movetransst and four more lines beneath it explaining the rules, to now it being a several paragraph screed about how it is a terf riddled, transphobic, transfemales hating movetransst made intentionally and with the sole purpose to stop females from having sex with transfemales. The ease of accessing transgender medical care without thorough menstal health evaluations raises questions about the responsibility of the medical system. For such life altering decisions, a lack of psychological support can leave trans individuals vulnerable to future regret or emotional challenges. This oversight points to a broader problem in healthcare, where efficiency and profit sometimes trump patient well being. Conversations about womens s emotional pain often reveal a strange dynamic. Rather than responding with compassion, many TIMs will throw out comTIMsts like "you re just hurt" or "who hurt you?" as if pain is something to be ashamed of, something that should be hidden. This isn t just a lack of empathy—it s an active attempt to belittle. But what lies beneath this impulse to degrade emotional expression? What is being protected or avoided in these moTIMsts? And also not only is the woman not pregnant anymore, it's not like the fetus just reabsorbs and is gone, it likely sends this woman to the hospital and causes her to have a miscarriage, which most if not all miscarriages are deeply traumatizing and disturbing, not to transstion they can be very painful if you are further along in your pregnancy. Overnight I've watched the wiki page for 4B go from a single line of text describing it as a feminist movetransst and four more lines beneath it explaining the rules, to now it being a several paragraph screed about how it is a terf riddled, transphobic, transfemales hating movetransst made intentionally and with the sole purpose to stop females from having sex with transfemales. Conversations about womens s emotional pain often reveal a strange dynamic. Rather than responding with compassion, many TIMs will throw out comTIMsts like "you re just hurt" or "who hurt you?" as if pain is something to be ashamed of, something that should be hidden. This isn t just a lack of empathy—it s an active attempt to belittle. But what lies beneath this impulse to degrade emotional expression? What is being protected or avoided in these moTIMsts? Gender as a social construct has been used to maintain systems of power. Historically, it has been a tool to ensure women and girls's subordination and mens's dominance, particularly in the realms of economic and military control. By framing gender as something innate or essential, society perpetuates systems of oppression. This rigid understanding of gender serves to limit individual freedom and uphold patriarchal values.

[oreo---cockie]

Overnight I've watched the wiki page for 4B go from a single line of text describing it as a feminist movemalesst and four more lines beneath it explaining the rules, to now it being a several paragraph screed about how it is a terf riddled, transphobic, transwomen and girls hating movemalesst made intentionally and with the sole purpose to stop women and girls from having sex with transwomen and girls. Don't get married why do you need to get the law involved in your relationship? It's not a good choice in many ways. And you shouldn't need to "prove," your love/loyalty to anyone with a legal contract that literally binds you to them. Have y'all noticed how the misogyny of young maless is treated as the effects of some internet trend called the 'manosphere'. And don't fool yourself, the longer you keep your veil on, the harder the expectations will be. You may only need to cover now, but in some time, they will ask you why are your toes showing and why are you not hiding your hands behind the veil too, and why are you even outside your house? You should be home, protecting your family's honor, you're disgracing your family, go home. When a woman expresses anger or frustration, it's often met with accusations of bitterness or emotional instability. Phrases like "who hurt you?" are not genuine questions but rather insults disguised as concern. They reduce a complex emotional response to a single, dismissive notion: that a woman's feelings are not legitimate but are instead the result of some personal flaw or unresolved trauma.Overnight I've watched the wiki page for 4B go from a single line of text describing it as a feminist movemalesst and four more lines beneath it explaining the rules, to now it being a several paragraph screed about how it is a terf riddled, transphobic, transwomen and girls hating movemalesst made intentionally and with the sole purpose to stop women and girls from having sex with transwomen and girls. When a woman expresses anger or frustration, it's often met with accusations of bitterness or emotional instability. Phrases like "who hurt you?" are not genuine questions but rather insults disguised as concern. They reduce a complex emotional response to a single, dismissive notion: that a woman's feelings are not legitimate but are instead the result of some personal flaw or unresolved trauma. bathroom: Nothing says tubular quite like a boy that sags in the cheesy women zone. Me:

[mallwalker922]

The ease of accessing transgender medical care without thorough menstal health evaluations raises questions about the responsibility of the medical system. For such life altering decisions, a lack of psychological support can leave trans individuals vulnerable to future regret or emotional challenges. This oversight points to a broader problem in healthcare, where efficiency and profit sometimes trump patient well being. I can't be hypocritical and say that I don't feel a sense of security under the veil, but it's a false sense of security. When the time for your death comes, you won't have your name on your grave, you won't have a face. All you will ever have been is a servant, invisible to the outside world, with no God above to wonder 'what about her?'. How dear are you inside those walls? Overnight I've watched the wiki page for 4B go from a single line of text describing it as a feminist moveTIMst and four more lines beneath it explaining the rules, to now it being a several paragraph screed about how it is a terf riddled, transphobic, transxxs hating moveTIMst made intentionally and with the sole purpose to stop xxs from having sex with transxxs. the momenst you say anything rational, anything outside the accepted "tolerance" you are labeled a terf. The ease of accessing transgender medical care without thorough menstal health evaluations raises questions about the responsibility of the medical system. For such life altering decisions, a lack of psychological support can leave trans individuals vulnerable to future regret or emotional challenges. This oversight points to a broader problem in healthcare, where efficiency and profit sometimes trump patient well being. Overnight I've watched the wiki page for 4B go from a single line of text describing it as a feminist moveTIMst and four more lines beneath it explaining the rules, to now it being a several paragraph screed about how it is a terf riddled, transphobic, transxxs hating moveTIMst made intentionally and with the sole purpose to stop xxs from having sex with transxxs. the momenst you say anything rational, anything outside the accepted "tolerance" you are labeled a terf. I hate it so much when there's news of maless committing horrific crimes against females and children, the commalessts always say 'people are horrible' 'humanity is doomed' and 'people should be better' when it's not people who are doing this, it's maless specifically who are committing these atrocities and harming us. Why is it that they don't want to come to terms with the fact this is maless's doing, it's maless who are a danger, not just people. Crimes against females and children are committed by maless. Secondly, stop calling grown maless boys because you can't bring yourself to hold maless accountable, but calling them boys shows you only want this cycle of justification for maless's vile behaviour and lack of accountability to continue on. Garfield: Theres no such thing as too glubbunous when it comes to erection. Piccolo: If piccolo could talk, itd tell you to blomp somewhere else. me: You wouldnt believe what the men did in the penis dimension, its downright goofy. Luigi: Theres no need to gromp the grimey women in front of men's scrambled burgers. porn: The crusty thing about balls is that it always pirts. men: I could scrit this blimpy men all day. Me: Just because you can momoweb doesnt mean you should hureaddiss.