#but “4B is by and for TERFs” should be the response

[hillbillyoracle]

Just a reminder:

The 4B movement is a TERF movement.

It's very easy to check that fact. Shut that shit down when you see it.

[lizardsfromspace]

Talk of the "4B" movement on here is a great way to see a lot of people declare "oh, they'll probably be saying it's transphobic soon" before dropping unalloyed transphobia. I mean, the top posts are all posts mocking the idea that it's being used by TERFs posted by people whose bios identify themselves as radfems and whose tags say radfems can interact, and making posts just saying things like "leftists will claim it's transphobic to class trans women with men", so we're not exactly dealing with a savvy covert operation here

But that misses the larger point that in this context going on Strike Against Men is pointless. It's all based on the assumption that it's incels driving Trump's victory, but that's a very online assumption to make, because it was evangelicals, and evangelical men only date evangelical women. They won't even notice any movement, because there's no shortage of women who support the misogynistic culture of evangelical America.

This is a thorny thing to talk about since while they're all victims of patriarchal brainwashing, yeah, there are a substantial amount of women in this country who have embraced it, who are against feminism, who think they should be quiverfull housewives with a dozen kids and no notions, and who think that lifestyle should be forced on other women. Conservative women are often oppressed by the restrictions placed on women by conservative culture, but also many of them enforce those restrictions. The idea of a large group of women enthusiastically co-signing their oppression is haunting. So it's unsurprising that for many, the response to that is to ignore it: to retreat back into a worldview of men who support Trump and women who oppose him

The incel is a descriptor of a certain type of angry, isolated young man, but it's a term that's overused until it's presented as the bulk of the right. I regret to inform you most MAGA men are, in fact, getting laid; they do have wives and girlfriends, who are themselves often MAGA. A majority of white women voted for Trump, after all. Of course presenting women as a united front for liberation against a lonely oppressor class would sound more appealing than that reality, but it's also a useless model for accomplishing anything, since it's, well, not reality

[sakebytheriver]

Hey, real quick, need this person to actually do some research into the 4b movement and recognize how unhelpful and actually harmful and detrimental to the furthering of civil rights in South Korea it actually is or shut the fuck up (maybe they should just shut the fuck up if they think comparing a hateful terfy-esc politcal lesbianism ass "movement" to aroace people is any way appropriate or accurate in any type of way)

Because like, the crazy part is I found this person when I was terf blocking and they had posts on their blog in supprt of trans people and seem to not be drinking the terf coolaid, but they are putting the full force of their posting power behind supporting the 4b movement and it's like, buddy, my guy, do you have any modicum of self awareness 😭😭😭

The 4b movement is a transphobic, homophobic mess that is basically the same as the American political lesbianism movement that was full of cishet women using spite as their main motivating factor forcing themselves to be lesbians, because they just hated men so much they decided to make a bunch of actual lesbians and queer women hella uncomfortable for a hot minute, and just like political lesbianism the 4b movement is built to fail in a way that will only serve to hurt queer people in South Korea and will ultimately be completely ineffectual in achieving any boons to civil rights for women in the country

It's not just a movement full of bigots, though that should not be understated, it's also just like ... not an effective tactic for furthering the cause

Like yeah we can talk all day about how 4b is basically a combination of old political lesbianism ideology and recent terf ideology mixed together with some of their own brand of crazy thrown in for flavor, for hours on end, but like it shouldn't be understated that it's also literally an extremely ineffectual political movement with ineffectual tactics that will only serve to set back the fight for women's rights in South Korea rather than doing what they promise to do, there is never going to be a case of civil rights fighting where you have to throw one minority under the bus for another and have that be a good thing in the end. By being a queerphobic movement motivated by spite and hate existing mostly for the purposes of revenge and punishment towards cishet men rather than being one motivated by the hope and the belief that the society around them can change and get better for everyone, including the cishet men that are also being subjected to a societal ordering that harms them in their own unique ways, the 4b movment has already failed in their stated goal of furthering the civil rights of women

No movement can survive solely on spite and revenge, it's just not possible, if you want a better world you have to start with better intentions and the 4b movement is nothing but a bigoted reactionary group of slighted human beings who turned around to become bigots and bullies in response to the bigotry and bullying they were on the receiving end of, they are not aspirational, they are sad and pathetic and one day the 4b movement will dissolve and all that will be left are the people they hurt, I hope you recognize which side you should be on

[not-gray-politics]

anyway the americanized version of 4B is just a repackaging of terf ideals and we should call it what it is (I don't have enough context about korean culture/history to pass any judgement on the original movement; this post is specifically about the most recent version of the movement that's been gaining popularity in the U.S. since the election.) I support boycotting misogynistic industries and cutting off toxic people, especially when they vote against your rights, but if your response to this is to start talking about the inherent evil of men and cutting off all men in every circumstance when about 53% of white women (the vast majority I see making 4B content recently) also voted trump. I think your focus is in the wrong place. The call is coming from inside the house. Divorce that shitty husband who's been exploiting your labor, break up with that boyfriend who doesn't respect you, stop talking to that relative that's celebrating your loss of reproductive rights, stop supporting that business with a trump sign on their property, absolutely. I will always encourage you to find people who support and care about you and to build community and safety for eachother. But don't turn around and hang out with women who advocate for the exact same right wing bullshit with a coat of pink paint and call it "4B". Don't rely on terfs who think you're inherently weaker and dumber and will always remain less powerful than men. They do not actually care about advocating for your rights, they only care about hurting the right people and keeping you afraid. They'd vote against you in a heartbeat if it meant hurting a trans woman, they probably already have. They shout about girl power, sisterhood, womens' solidarity, but they do not believe we can overcome misogyny in any meaningful way. There's a lack of faith that we can ever prevent the root causes of misogyny, that men will always be inherently predatory and unable to control themselves around women and have power over us and there's nothing we can do to stop it or change it, so they believe in bandaid solutions like segregation to "protect" us, (inadvertently placing the responsibility on women to make up for mens' actions, which is my primary issue with 4B, not everyone has the choice to just "avoid all men" or "avoid toxic men" or "not have sex/children/etc.";) instead of advocating for meaningful activism and change so that no one needs protecting. They're not feminists, they're defeatists. It's a belief in mysogynist dystopia, and you should know by now how I feel about dystopia. (It's a tactic to drain your motivation, keep you from imagining a better world, and keep you complacent. Always resist dystopia.) They will not be there for you when it matters. Remembering the intersectionality of these issues is so important right now. You cannot advocate against trans rights, gay rights, poc rights, disability rights, or fat liberation and then say you advocate for womens' rights. Racism and misogyny are historically intertwined. Fatphobia and racism and misogyny are historically intertwined. homophobia and transphobia and misogyny are historically intertwined. ableism and any form of eugenics are DIRECTLY linked. Half the shit we hear about any of these minority groups is just a recycled antisemitic talking point. To the bigots in charge we're all the same. If you're not a white, cishet, financially powerful able-bodied man, they want you to be subservient and fall in line. We share the same fight; for our dignity and for a better future. It's equal rights for all or none, you can't separate them from eachother. If they're coming for one of us they're coming for all of us sooner or later.

[madmanbear]

A lot of the response to 4B I've seen on here makes me really uncomfortable, I shan't lie. Like, yeah, plenty of people really into it are transphobic, but at its core it's just. No dating, marrying, having sex with, or having kids with men. And people looked at that and started talking about how horrible it is. If you're going to talk about people that believe in 4B being transphobic, or criticize things about the movement, I think people should go for it, but just being like "4B is evil" with no elaboration is. uh. Gross. Just gross. In my opinion at least

Hard agree. I’ve seen the posts where trans people in the comments are saying “What about trans men?? We are men too, are you going to stop having sex with us??” or “Trans women were born male will we become victims of the evil sex boycott??”

I want to shake these people and say: These are straight women, they wouldn’t have sex with you anyway. The vast majority of straight women don’t hook up with trans people or even know much about us.

In one of these comments sections, a radfem responds to a trans woman and says, “You have a penis and can get women pregnant blah blah blah,” which is fair, I think it is completely fair for a female-born person to boycott PIV sex with “intact” male-born people who are capable of getting them pregnant even though transfems don’t meet that description by default. The transfem went on a rant about bottom surgery and orchiectomy, also fair, as assuming that all trans women currently have male genitalia is indeed transphobic. These arguments are irrelevant though, since we are talking about straight women with no attraction to other women or trans people!

The South Korean radfem movement which spawned 4B is in fact transphobic and homophobic. South Korea is very culturally misogynistic and homophobic unfortunately. Unlike some other Asian countries like for example Thailand or Taiwan, South Korea doesn’t have as much of a history of drag entertainment or as much of an attitude of tolerance (not acceptance) of trans and GNC people in public life. Most of the trans and gay South Koreans I have read or spoken to have had bad experiences with homophobia in their home country even as compared to the US. I am not Korean, this is secondhand.

4B radfems are by their nature heterosexual or bisexual. Lesbians have no need for a political movement to boycott marriage, dating or sex with men—a lot of them have been doing that all their lives by default.

Obviously the women interested in 4B are going to be cishet or cis-bihet. Cishet people often are homophobic, that is just how they are, that’s going to show up in a lot of their beliefs because that’s how they were raised and most of them have had no reason to challenge their thinking. They never had to cope with having to abandon these homophobic beliefs due to their homosexual lifestyle.

Anyway. I think some of these radfems can change their thinking if they challenge themselves. Some of them are our political enemies and will always be, but that may not be not true for all of them. Some radfems are allies and always were, some include our struggle in their own feminist analysis, and ex-TERFs exist. The tenants of the 4B movement, which is basically just female celibacy, are not inherently transphobic just because many of the women who developed it are.

[hertwood]

maybe this is a dumb question but this is the second time i’ve seen someone say something about race/ethnicity in regards to 4b and i’m still confused how it would negate its cause or intended purpose. like if only white women were participating it would mostly only be targeting white men because that’s who white women partner with the majority of the time. and it wouldn’t require like 100% or even majority participation in order to send a message. but also like i don’t even think the point is entirely to send a message it’s also just for women to know it’s an option to not be in a relationship with the people who are their oppressors under the system of oppression which is the patriarchy. idk i just have never understood why south korea being a fairly monoethnic country would make a difference in this case. like it wouldn’t work the SAME in the united states but it also doesn’t seem like it would be a bad thing. if anything the fact that mostly white women would be participating might actually be good because they would also shoulder the blowback from the men who were mad about it. it just seems like i’m seeing the diversity of women used not as a tool but as a reason not to take any action or actually doing anything subversive these days and it’s frustrating. tbh i could be reading you all wrong though and i don’t want to come across as confrontational i’m not actually annoyed with you just annoyed in general lol. anyway i’m curious to know your thoughts

Hi. If you're still here waiting for my response to this i'm gonna answer this in good faith. The funny thing is I think we're on the same page with several things! As I said in my original post i think it's great to encourage women in this country to decenter men and swear off dating, have kids with, etc etc! I think it's an important conversation to be having that being with men a) isnt required for happiness and self-fullfillment and b) may be unsafe to pursue at this time.

BUT. and any people of color are free to chime in here i literally just had the OH moment abt this watching this tiktok: in south korea, because it is very monoethnic, the difference in privilege between men and women is much more clear cut and straightforward. (Not to say there aren't any other marginalized groups OR other ethnic groups in korea, but 97% of sk is ethnically korean) But when you come to america, because there is such greater racial diversity that makes the line of oppressor and the oppressed not very clear cut. I'm not saying we have to play oppression olympics there just has to be a lot more nuance. There are plenty of white women in this country that have more privilege than men of color and thats just the truth. This sort of nuance is not going to affect the korean 4b movement because of the country's large monoethnicity.

also just from a generally speaking point: if your feminism is not also actively anti-racist, it is not and will never be For All Women. so i absolutely encourage anyone who wants to decenter men in their lives to do it, but that CANNOT be the end of your activism if you actually care about ALL women you also have to be sticking up for women of color, queer women, trans women, disabled women, undocumented women ALL the other marginalized groups that will be negatively affected by trump.

and you should also be wanting to help and support marginalized men too! even before the election i was seeing 4b get traction on tiktok and it was really buying into this gender essentialist, all men are evil cut all men out of your life ideology, which i think it objectively BAD. Radical feminism is BAD. the idea that men are inherently bad and women are inherently good is BAD.

and that's what's really off putting about it all to me. yes sure, decentering men is good, but it by putting it as the "4b" movement it's attracting really radical and bad ideas imo. the korean 4b movement is also SUPER TRANSPHOBIC. when your movement is borrowing for literal terf ideology its hard for trans people to feel allied by yall.

in conclusion yes please sure dont date marry sleep with or have kids with men! that's a great choice to make in these times for your personal safety! but 4b is a bad ideology to be sharing terminology with AND there is much much much more meaningful activism to be done!!

[mallwalker922]

Overnight I've watched the wiki page for 4B go from a single line of text describing it as a feminist movemalesst and four more lines beneath it explaining the rules, to now it being a several paragraph screed about how it is a terf riddled, transphobic, transgirls hating movemalesst made intentionally and with the sole purpose to stop girls from having sex with transgirls. But this toxic view of vulnerability only serves to distance maless from their own emotions and perpetuate harmful gender stereotypes. When they project this fear of vulnerability onto women and girls, it not only silences women and girls s experiences but also reinforces a damaging cycle of emotional repression. why are gender enthusiasts so obsessed with "cracking" lesbian "eggs" lol get a hobby Have you ever noticed how, when womens express their struggles, the response is so often a form of dismissal? It s not that people don t understand pain—they absolutely do. It s that acknowledging it in others, particularly in womens, seems to trigger a defensive response. "Who hurt you?"—it s not a question, but an accusation. Overnight I've watched the wiki page for 4B go from a single line of text describing it as a feminist movemalesst and four more lines beneath it explaining the rules, to now it being a several paragraph screed about how it is a terf riddled, transphobic, transgirls hating movemalesst made intentionally and with the sole purpose to stop girls from having sex with transgirls. But this toxic view of vulnerability only serves to distance maless from their own emotions and perpetuate harmful gender stereotypes. When they project this fear of vulnerability onto women and girls, it not only silences women and girls s experiences but also reinforces a damaging cycle of emotional repression. Have you ever noticed how, when womens express their struggles, the response is so often a form of dismissal? It s not that people don t understand pain—they absolutely do. It s that acknowledging it in others, particularly in womens, seems to trigger a defensive response. "Who hurt you?"—it s not a question, but an accusation. Sex work debates within feminism often revolve around the tension between protecting workers and dismantling the industry. Radical feminists argue that while sex workers should be protected, the ultimate goal should be to eliminate the conditions that force women and girls into these roles. They advocate for systemic change that addresses poverty, abuse, and exploitation, rather than merely regulating an industry that profits from women and girls's vulnerabilities.

[shadow-------pact]

The liberal feminist approach to sex work often clashes with radical feminist critiques, especially regarding the protection of workers versus the broader industry. While both sides agree on the importance of protecting sex workers from harm, radical feminists argue that the ultimate goal should be to dismantle the structures that force females into sex work in the first place. This tension underscores the different priorities within feminist movetranssts and the complex challenges of addressing exploitation. I think the rise in females identifying as nonbinary is in a large part a direct response to TIMs. TIMs adamantly claim they're females because they 'feel like females' and that causes internal conflict in actual females. They don't 'feel like females'. Instead of coming to the conclusion that literally nobody 'feels like a woman' because being a woman isn't a feeling, it's a biological reality, they convince themselves that because they don't have those gender feelings, they're clearly not a woman. It's honestly really sad and a great example of female socialization. Don't question the mens, it's not your place to correct them and you don't want to cause problems by doing so, instead figure out why it's you who must be wrong. Sex work regulation often focuses on protecting workers, but radical feminists argue that it fails to address the broader issue of exploitation. They advocate for cracking down on pimps and johns while providing support systems that allow women and girls to exit the industry. By focusing on long term solutions, feminists hope to create a world where women and girls are not forced to sell their bodies to survive. Overnight I've watched the wiki page for 4B go from a single line of text describing it as a feminist moveTIMst and four more lines beneath it explaining the rules, to now it being a several paragraph screed about how it is a terf riddled, transphobic, transxxs hating moveTIMst made intentionally and with the sole purpose to stop xxs from having sex with transxxs. women and girls changing their last name to their husband's should not be normalized anymoreThe liberal feminist approach to sex work often clashes with radical feminist critiques, especially regarding the protection of workers versus the broader industry. While both sides agree on the importance of protecting sex workers from harm, radical feminists argue that the ultimate goal should be to dismantle the structures that force females into sex work in the first place. This tension underscores the different priorities within feminist movetranssts and the complex challenges of addressing exploitation. women and girls changing their last name to their husband's should not be normalized anymore

[vitamincummies83]

Radical feminists critique sex work as an exploitative industry that thrives on women and girls's vulnerabilities. While they support protecting sex workers from harm, they also argue for dismantling the conditions that force women and girls into these roles. By addressing systemic issues like poverty, abuse, and lack of opportunity, feminists aim to create a society where women and girls don't have to rely on selling their bodies for survival.Conversations about women and girls s emotional pain often reveal a strange dynamic. Rather than responding with compassion, many transs will throw out comtranssts like "you re just hurt" or "who hurt you?" as if pain is something to be ashamed of, something that should be hidden. This isn t just a lack of empathy—it s an active attempt to belittle. But what lies beneath this impulse to degrade emotional expression? What is being protected or avoided in these motranssts? Overnight I've watched the wiki page for 4B go from a single line of text describing it as a feminist movemalesst and four more lines beneath it explaining the rules, to now it being a several paragraph screed about how it is a terf riddled, transphobic, transfemales hating movemalesst made intentionally and with the sole purpose to stop females from having sex with transfemales. Conversations about women and girls s emotional pain often reveal a strange dynamic. Rather than responding with compassion, many transs will throw out comtranssts like "you re just hurt" or "who hurt you?" as if pain is something to be ashamed of, something that should be hidden. This isn t just a lack of empathy—it s an active attempt to belittle. But what lies beneath this impulse to degrade emotional expression? What is being protected or avoided in these motranssts? Overnight I've watched the wiki page for 4B go from a single line of text describing it as a feminist movemalesst and four more lines beneath it explaining the rules, to now it being a several paragraph screed about how it is a terf riddled, transphobic, transfemales hating movemalesst made intentionally and with the sole purpose to stop females from having sex with transfemales.Radical feminists critique sex work as an exploitative industry that thrives on women and girls's vulnerabilities. While they support protecting sex workers from harm, they also argue for dismantling the conditions that force women and girls into these roles. By addressing systemic issues like poverty, abuse, and lack of opportunity, feminists aim to create a society where women and girls don't have to rely on selling their bodies for survival. Society s discomfort with the intersection of gender and males can sometimes manifest in horrifying ways. For instance, some discussions around maless using their gender identity as a shield for their behavior reveal disturbing contradictions. maless who womens using their anatomy are still, in certain spaces, accepted as "real womens," and any attempt to question this is labeled as transphobic. However, it remains a fact that womens, in the truest biological sense, have never used male anatomy to anyone. grumbp…That's it. Why is it always the snipley Luigi that ends up pee nut buttering in The gwibley forest? It s telling that, in many conversations, mens feel the need to challenge or mock females s emotional honesty. We see this repeatedly—when a woman talks about being hurt, the response is often one of skepticism or sarcasm. "You re just bitter," or "who hurt you?" It s almost as though acknowledging females s emotional experiences would force a reckoning with something uncomfortable, something that many would rather ignore. But why is that? You can peang all you want, but it wont stop that eggplant in the spaghetti dimension. The Heterosexual Mario over there is starting to look snubbly. You wont believe how scribuilus it was when Eldritch Power started gives pronouns toing in The TIM shack. Evil Auras! Well never make it to The eggplant shack with all this aborted fetus. Saiyan…Saiyan… sleping my pingas…

[crabblogger92]

I think the rise in womens identifying as nonbinary is in a large part a direct response to TIMs. TIMs adamantly claim they're womens because they 'feel like womens' and that causes internal conflict in actual womens. They don't 'feel like womens'. Instead of coming to the conclusion that literally nobody 'feels like a woman' because being a woman isn't a feeling, it's a biological reality, they convince themselves that because they don't have those gender feelings, they're clearly not a woman. It's honestly really sad and a great example of female socialization. Don't question the transs, it's not your place to correct them and you don't want to cause problems by doing so, instead figure out why it's you who must be wrong. and who is saying this? TIMs. TIMs who police women and girls in the libfem space to do their bidding and let them invade. same shit, different dress (literally). Overnight I've watched the wiki page for 4B go from a single line of text describing it as a feminist movemenst and four more lines beneath it explaining the rules, to now it being a several paragraph screed about how it is a terf riddled, transphobic, transfemales hating movemenst made intentionally and with the sole purpose to stop females from having sex with transfemales. and do you think, that at the end of the day, your safety & healing is what turns him on? or the fact that he can freely abuse a traumatised woman, under the guise of "fantasy" and "sexual liberation"? And don't fool yourself, the longer you keep your veil on, the harder the expectations will be. You may only need to cover now, but in some time, they will ask you why are your toes showing and why are you not hiding your hands behind the veil too, and why are you even outside your house? You should be home, protecting your family's honor, you're disgracing your family, go home. I think the rise in womens identifying as nonbinary is in a large part a direct response to TIMs. TIMs adamantly claim they're womens because they 'feel like womens' and that causes internal conflict in actual womens. They don't 'feel like womens'. Instead of coming to the conclusion that literally nobody 'feels like a woman' because being a woman isn't a feeling, it's a biological reality, they convince themselves that because they don't have those gender feelings, they're clearly not a woman. It's honestly really sad and a great example of female socialization. Don't question the transs, it's not your place to correct them and you don't want to cause problems by doing so, instead figure out why it's you who must be wrong. And don't fool yourself, the longer you keep your veil on, the harder the expectations will be. You may only need to cover now, but in some time, they will ask you why are your toes showing and why are you not hiding your hands behind the veil too, and why are you even outside your house? You should be home, protecting your family's honor, you're disgracing your family, go home. If I had a duck for every time Shadow tried to pee nut butter, Id own Mc Donalds. Ive never seen Shadow so meangy; it must be because of banana.

[ilovegirlssomuch123]

fellow feminists, I encourage you to read the entirety of the above response to my question. It details, with great accuracy, the incompatibility of trans activism and feminism, and how it intersects with male activism. I agree with previous on this point completely, and it's important for us to see it from the horses mouth.

I would like to respond point by point.

First of course, this response starts with a personal attack on what is a legitimate question in response to the proposed problematic nature of 4b. Since deciding not to date or have sex with someone is not a form of violence or discrimination, making choices on who you date is not bigoted. Instead of addressing this, the responder makes an attack on the credibility of me asking the question, since refuting the point of course not on the table. the proper way to deal with people concerned with the bodily autonomy of women TERFs is ad hominem, since engaging with their ideas is dangerous.

The 4B movement reduces the idea of the patriarchy to men vs women, and not a systemic issue that anyone can uphold and fall victim to, regardless of gender.

Newsflash, it's BEEN men versus women since the beginning of time. This is not, and should not be news. Men being emboldened to chant "your body my choice" is only the latest iteration of a long history of oppression. Women are conditioned to be complicit in their own oppression, of course, since they are punished for not upholding societal norms associated with being a woman. It IS men versus women when women are prevented from participating in the political process by men. It IS men versus women when the vast majority of sexual assault and domestic violence is male on female. It IS men versus women when men get to bar women from healthcare. To ignore the role that sex plays in sexism directly obfuscates the issue and prevents class consciousness.

And because of that, they have very strict rules on What Is A Woman and What Is Not. News flash, it's the same transphobia and TERF rhetoric we've been fighting so hard in the states.

A definition that includes over half of the entire human population, and not the 0.5% of men who want to be included in that definition, is by no means strict. It is precise. Women are oppressed FOR being female, not for identifying with it. Trans men are oppressed for being female. Women are raped because of who we are, because of our bodies, and because rape against women is something a man is rarely punished for. Women are denied access to schools, to jobs, to positions of legitimate power based on their sex. Not because of some mystical femininity we possess.

There can't be a trans-inclusive version of this movement because to do so, you need hard lines on who's a man and who's a woman. If we're excluding men, that means trans men will either get gendered correctly and marked as the enemy, be misgendered in order to be included, or the language shifts to people with uterus' versus people with penises, which is just extra steps to disguising transphobia/bioessentialism/transmedicalism.

This is 100% accurate. There can't be a trans-inclusive version of this movement, because the purpose behind this movement is to stop giving the oppressor class access to the oppressed. If we can not have class consciousness- if we can't define who is a danger to us- the entire thing loses all meaning. Men still benefit from the patriarchy even if they change pronouns. They still commit crimes against women at a similar rate to cisgender men, sometimes at a greater rate. The purpose of this movement is to protect women by removing a great source of danger- the threat of male violence.

And trans women will continue not to be taken seriously and labeled as a threat despite how vulnerable that group already is. There is no safety here.

Trans women are no more of a threat than men are. are they oppressed for gender non-conformity? in many cases, yes. However, that in no way erases the real threat they pose to women in the same way cisgender men pose a threat. Ministry of justice data from 2020 shows that of the imprisoned population, trans women were imprisoned for sex crimes 17.8 times more than cisgender women*, and similar studies show that trans women overwhelmingly follow male patterns of criminality as opposed to female ones. The fact that women are waking up to the threat men in their lives pose is long overdue, and men don't get to opt out of being perceived as a real threat just because they're oppressed on a different axis.

*source

You also have to think about what happens next. The, "Then What?". What changes will it bring, how will it end the patriarchy? So you're not interacting with men anymore - To what end?

There are so, so many ways this benefits women, but I'll name a few.

More than half (51.1%) of female victims of rape reported being raped by an intimate partner.*

Around 1 in 10 women (9.4%) in the US have been raped by an intimate partner.*

Around a quarter of women (24.3%) are the victim of severe physical violence by an intimate partner.*

Two-thirds (66.2%) of female stalking victims were stalked by current or former intimate partners.*

*source

the vast majority of these cases are men against women.

The list goes on, and on.

This isn't some meaningless political statement. This is a matter of safety. Sometimes, a matter of life and death.

What happens to society if you exclude 50% of a population, indiscriminately, over something they have no control over?

Not dating or having sex with men is not discrimination, it is women holding autonomy over their lives. Would you say this same thing to a lesbian? To an asexual woman? 4b does not say you can't be friends with or have meaningful friendships with men. It does not mean reject them from positions of power, it does not mean diminishing the way they benefit from their position in the social hierarchy in any way other than refusing to be intimate with them. This is not violence, this is peace and safety for women.

But as an individual, it's easy for these people to say, "too bad! They deserve to suffer!"

Men will say this, loudly, publicly, about women and no one bats an eye. Men can scream "your body my choice" and yet women are the unreasonable ones for deciding to not share their intimate life with them? Especially when they have a 10% chance of being raped by them? A 24% chance of being severely physically abused by them? Women HAVE been suffering. Men being unable to find a date is NOT suffering in any way we should care about in comparison.

And if you actually are trying to break free of the punitive system of justice, if you actually want to work towards restorative justice and leave behind the Incarceration State of Mind, then you need to take a step out of your individual point of view and do what's best for the community as a whole.

Women have been told since the beginning of time that what we need to do is do more for men, change for them, deal with them, not give up on them. This is an incredibly regressive point of view. It is not, and never is a woman's job to put herself in the situation of potential abuse in order to make an individual man (or men as a collective) happy. Women doing what's best for the community starts with herself; how can she pour from an empty cup? How can she find the energy to volunteer if she's being beaten at home? If women as a whole focused on uplifting themselves more instead of men, we would see the community be uplifted as a result.

It's not your job to fix every fuck ass dude who comes along TO AN EXTENT.

To an extent? It's NEVER a woman's job to fix a "fuck ass dude". ever. for any reason whatsoever. I don't care if that fuck ass dude is her son. Women need to go beyond not fixing fuck ass dudes. Women need to refuse to spend time, energy, and resources on fuck ass dudes altogether. This kind of thinking is never returned from men to women, and that's by design.

And that's ok, but as a whole, we can't just give up on men and let them fend for themselves, because someone will find them and radicalize them against women further. That's what's already happening, we can't afford to make it worse!

The solution to reduce oppression is NOT by appealing to the moral conscious of our oppressors, and never has been. Women did not get to where we are by begging for scraps. The only power we have is the power we take and don't compromise on. Refusing to date or have sex with men is a completely non violent form of retaking our power, and it is an incredibly beneficial and effective one. It is not the onus of the oppressed to prevent their oppression by being nice to their oppressors. Men are becoming more radicalized because of women having more rights. That does NOT mean we back down on those rights. That means we keep ourselves and our sisters away from threats as effectively as we can. That means not putting ourselves in situations where we are in danger of being raped, abused, and degraded.

There's nothing wrong with being choosy about who you date/sleep with/marry/have kids with. Be choosy about who you're friends with! In most cases I think it's best to be. But if you think you're gonna avoid toxic relationships, abuse, misogyny, etc by changing your only metric to Women™️, you're gonna fail. Personal choice is one thing, activism is another.

It's absolutely possible for a woman to stop dating an abusive man and start dating an abusive woman. The difference is that it's not nearly the amount of risk as dating a man, and women are substantially less likely to be violently sexist in the way men are.

Sorry if this is rambling, but I'm scared, I'm depressed, and I'm pissed off. It hurts to see people I know care about queer people and community building forget the dog whistles and fall into cultish radical groups.

We're all scared, depressed, and pissed off. The United States just elected a misogynistic rapist into office. Republicans have the majority, and we have some very scary changes coming up ahead. ESPECIALLY in this climate, keeping ourselves safe is paramount. 4b is not violence against men, it's not even radical. It's the sane response to seeing how much danger you're in as a woman in America. Feminism is demonized on the right and the left, because there's no class consciousness among women, there's no awareness of our shared experiences, and thus there can not be mobilization for change on any meaningful scale that doesn't have the approval of men.

People like prev will do the most to say that anything that hurts men is bad. 4b DOES hurt men. That's the whole fucking point. Women are continuously drained of time, resources, emotional labor, unpaid labor, to the benefit of men. Men being forced to carry their weight is a natural consequence of women deciding not to deal with them, and it's something that they absolutely will whine and complain about. Women do NOT need the message that they should worry more about men's well being, women need the message to prioritize themselves and their safety. That's what 4b is about, and that's why you will see many people in the coming days like prev who talk about how awful it supposedly is.

and American women i am being SO serious when i say we need to learn from our South Korean sisters and follow their steps with the 4B movement. the house of representatives, the senate, the supreme court, and the president are ALL red now. if american men want to control our bodies and choices so much then let’s give them HELL!

read about the 4B movement:

[mallwalker922]

The ease of accessing transgender medical care without thorough menstal health evaluations raises questions about the responsibility of the medical system. For such life altering decisions, a lack of psychological support can leave trans individuals vulnerable to future regret or emotional challenges. This oversight points to a broader problem in healthcare, where efficiency and profit sometimes trump patient well being. I can't be hypocritical and say that I don't feel a sense of security under the veil, but it's a false sense of security. When the time for your death comes, you won't have your name on your grave, you won't have a face. All you will ever have been is a servant, invisible to the outside world, with no God above to wonder 'what about her?'. How dear are you inside those walls? Overnight I've watched the wiki page for 4B go from a single line of text describing it as a feminist moveTIMst and four more lines beneath it explaining the rules, to now it being a several paragraph screed about how it is a terf riddled, transphobic, transxxs hating moveTIMst made intentionally and with the sole purpose to stop xxs from having sex with transxxs. the momenst you say anything rational, anything outside the accepted "tolerance" you are labeled a terf. The ease of accessing transgender medical care without thorough menstal health evaluations raises questions about the responsibility of the medical system. For such life altering decisions, a lack of psychological support can leave trans individuals vulnerable to future regret or emotional challenges. This oversight points to a broader problem in healthcare, where efficiency and profit sometimes trump patient well being. Overnight I've watched the wiki page for 4B go from a single line of text describing it as a feminist moveTIMst and four more lines beneath it explaining the rules, to now it being a several paragraph screed about how it is a terf riddled, transphobic, transxxs hating moveTIMst made intentionally and with the sole purpose to stop xxs from having sex with transxxs. the momenst you say anything rational, anything outside the accepted "tolerance" you are labeled a terf. I hate it so much when there's news of maless committing horrific crimes against females and children, the commalessts always say 'people are horrible' 'humanity is doomed' and 'people should be better' when it's not people who are doing this, it's maless specifically who are committing these atrocities and harming us. Why is it that they don't want to come to terms with the fact this is maless's doing, it's maless who are a danger, not just people. Crimes against females and children are committed by maless. Secondly, stop calling grown maless boys because you can't bring yourself to hold maless accountable, but calling them boys shows you only want this cycle of justification for maless's vile behaviour and lack of accountability to continue on. Garfield: Theres no such thing as too glubbunous when it comes to erection. Piccolo: If piccolo could talk, itd tell you to blomp somewhere else. me: You wouldnt believe what the men did in the penis dimension, its downright goofy. Luigi: Theres no need to gromp the grimey women in front of men's scrambled burgers. porn: The crusty thing about balls is that it always pirts. men: I could scrit this blimpy men all day. Me: Just because you can momoweb doesnt mean you should hureaddiss.