#bran stark's characterization

[horizon-verizon]

Can you explain the difference between Dragondreams and Greensight?

@zeciex

Both are hereditary prophetic seer abilities where the seer is unconcious or semiconscious as they recieve visions of what. Both often and almost always come in metaphorical an symbolic imagery.

One is inherited from First Men/children of the forest and wargs (those who have soul-transport into another living creature, almost always a nonhuman animal and control them) may or may not have this ability as well--greensight. The other is inherited from Valyrian bonds with dragons cultivated similarly to how greensight was amongst Pre-Conquest northern Westereosi and freefolk over the course of hundreds of years--dragon dreams.

Unlike greensight, dragon dreams often are about or have dragons but don't have to. We don't know for sure if one can arrange themselves to have a dream/vision or try to contro such, but it appears not for either ability. You could say they are the same ability given different names...but as I mentioned, they developed differently in different contexts and one has more dragons in them than the other, and i theorize it's bc dragon dreaming, more than green sight, is meant or has developed to focus more on those with Valyrian dragonriders' dragon-riding blood to guide them and "theirs" on how to maintain or follow up on those instincts and intuition built from the dragon bond. to guide them there. Greensight may have been developed for or shared with humans from the children to use against the Others and protect them (and not necessarily the Andals bc those guys hadn't appeared yet) like how dragon dreams protect the Valyrian dragonlords/riders.

It's quite clearly proof of how Bran and Dany are the magical heart of the series and parallel each other in this way.

[horizon-verizon]

On Daenerys, Colonisation and Race Discourse within the ASOIAF Fandom

This has been on my mind for a good long while and honestly, as much as I would like to leave discourse in the pits, it has been bugging me intermittently over the past few weeks.

Far too many of you get on here and call people who like the fictional dragon-riding neo-Nazis and that sentiment is so prevalent, that white people feel comfortable telling me a black woman that I am a neo-Nazi for rooting for Daenerys Targaryen. I am upholding neo-Nazi power fantasies for wanting to see a little girl live at the end of a story. I am a neo-Nazi for wanting to see the rape survivor have the family she aches for and children with the man (or men) she loves.

Then, those same people go on spiels about how the systemic erasure of those who sing the song of the earth and other old races is not colonialism. That their removal from their home is not displacement but an agreement between two equal parties. The fact that the only place where those who sing the song of the earth exist in the present timeline is north of the wall, surrounded by the bones of their dead, is not a travesty. That the expulsion of the old races from their home isn't that bad and should not be condemned. 

Instead, people argue, completely seriously, that the harm that the First Men and Andals have caused is centuries in the past, so essentially the slate has been wiped clean. The logical leaps that are required to arrive at such a boneheaded conclusion are truly mind-boggling, and those who make such arguments are not good people. 

I am unsure how one could read those books and come away with the impression that the old races do not mourn the loss of their home. I am unsure how one could read The Last of the Giants[1] and Ygritte’s reaction to the both the song and Jon’s dismissal of the ethnic cleansing of the giants then believe that the old races and the free folk have moved past their displacement. 

In Westeros, from the Wall to the broken arm of Dorne, they all speak one language despite the fact they are all different ethnicities and they all landed on the shores at different times. That is not the case in Essos, we have been introduced to at least six languages and in A Dance with Dragons, Tyrion notes that the Valyrian spoken in the Free Cities has evolved into nine distinct dialects, and they are well on their way to becoming different languages.

How would a continent as large and diverse as Westeros maintain its hegemony over the people if not for forced assimilation, discriminatory practices and violence? 

The circular logic gets even more blockheaded when you factor in the fact that Daenerys is far from the only white character in the books. She is not the only character who wishes for home. She is not the only character who draws strength from her ancestors, her bloodline and her magical creatures. 

Cersei draws strength from her family’s iconography, and the Stark children (Jon included) all draw strength from their direwolves, their home and their blood. Sansa, Arya and Bran wish to return home and their home was built on the indiscriminate murder and displacement of the indigenous peoples. Their home is built on centuries of rape, murder, exclusionary practices and sexual slavery. 

However, if we give that nonsensical argument that time erases crimes air; the Starks, Lannisters and Tullys are warring to settle personal grievances in the present timeline. As a consequence of that war, thousands (a modest guesstimate) of small folk, minor nobles and even some major ones have been raped, tortured, maimed and killed.

Despite all this, no one writes meta after meta about how Sansa and her siblings must surely die for justice to be had for those who sing the song of the earth, the free folk, the giants and all the old races that fled beyond the wall.  

People write meta about Cersei and how she must die, but those are typically more misogynistic nature. They typically argue that she must die not for the “crime” of being Lannister, but for the “crime” of being Cersei and “ruining” Jamie. 

I would not mind criticisms of Dany and her peace-focused approach to ending slavery because the approach is naïve and she gives the slavers far too much ground. However, she is learning, growing and self-critiquing. At the end of A Dance with Dragons, she has decided to embrace fire and blood, her knight is breaking the false peace which is a necessary step forward.

What I find offensive is people saying that she should have planned better before she abolished slavery. And that the death, violence, and sickness that arises from her quest to eradicate slavery is somehow worse than the death, violence, and sickness that already existed in Slaver’s Bay. 

This argument often downplays the horrific conditions and suffering that exist(ed) under the slave system in Slaver's Bay. Such arguments are often in poor taste and prioritise the lives and comforts of the slavers more than the people they have enslaved.

I would not mind criticisms of Dany if people applied that same critique even-handedly. The same people who believe that Jon and Bran have done much to rectify the evil that their ancestors perpetuated believe that Dany has not done anything to right the wrongs of her ethnic kin. They praise them for the non-existent steps that they have taken, but in the same breath, they condemn Dany for not being able to immediately end the plague that is slavery. 

It is perfectly alright to not like fictional characters, no law requires you to like certain fictional characters over others. However, what is not right is making broad accusations about those who do, it is beyond the pale. It is disgusting, and annoying, and trivialises real-world issues to score cheap points against fictional characters.

Equating the survival of a teenage survivor to the restoration of a fascist house or neo-Nazi power fantasy when such designations do not exist in the world of ice and fire is strange behaviour. Saying that the teenage survivor will eventually be manipulated and raped (again) before ending up dead on her manipulator's blade is also strange behaviour. 

Dismissing the horrors of colonialism, especially when the text shows you that the involved parties are still affected by it, is not normal and often veers into real-world imperialism apologia. While criticism and analysis of characters and their actions are valid and even encouraged, it is essential that we do not resort to sweeping generalistaions about other people and that keep criticisms of characters grounded in the text. 

[1]  

Ooooooh, I am the last of the giants, my people are gone from the earth.

The last of the great mountain giants, who ruled all the world at my birth

Oh, the smallfolk have stolen my forests, they’ve stolen my rivers and hills.

And they’ve built a great wall through my valleys, and fished all the fish from my rills

In stone halls they burn their great fires, in stone halls they forge their sharp spears.

Whilst I walk alone in the mountains, with no true companion but tears.

They hunt me with dogs in the daylight, they hunt me with torches by night.

For these men who are small can never stand tall, whilst giants still walk in the light.

Oooooooh, I am the LAST of the giants, so learn well the words of my song.

For when I am gone the singing will fade, and the silence shall last long and long.

[fromtheseventhhell]

Asoiaf TikTok is the worst when it comes to people skipping chapters, the amount of people boasting about how they skip bran chapters then complaining about how they can't understand skinchanging, greenseers etc.

That's not surprising considering this fandom is built on accommodating people who haven't read the books. There are a lot of self-proclaimed experts and neutrals who haven't entirely read the books, or at all, and the only thing they're actually well-versed in are popular fandom ideas. People skip entire sections and plotlines and then come to the conclusion that they're inconsequential. You can really track what parts get skipped by the discussions in fandom too. I even have a post in my drafts talking about how little speculation there is on warging, greenseers, the direwolves, etc. because people don't see those as particularly important. It's so notable and it's obvious why.

Bran isn't... completely ignored in fandom, but he is definitely one of the characters whose importance gets downplayed. When he gets talked about it's often as an accessory to someone else's plot instead of being given his own focus. He's just gonna be some emotionless tree who's gonna use his powers in some capacity to save the day, and that's all people care to come up with for him. Even show truthers who think the books are gonna follow the same story think the biggest change is that he isn't going to be King. People will skip his chapters, some of the most magical chapters in the books, and then talk about how unimportant magic is to the plot😑. It just blows my mind that this has just become an acceptable way to "read" the books. People skip chapters and then think that what they don't know isn't important. And it somehow seems to be the most acceptable when it comes to the key five characters.

[ai-manre]

Following the Roses: A Meta

Having remerged into the fandom now after a long break, I was surprised to see all the currently prevailing ideas on a lot of things. It looks like the longer we go without the books, the more cycles and counter-cycles of convictions we have as a fandom, as our echo-chamber gets more intense and the contexts that much matter so much in canon fade. It was interesting to see all the different ideas and head-canons of people regarding R+L now in particular (with many now stalwartly characterizing Rhaegar as a prophecy-obsessed lunatic who impregnated Lyanna, with or without her will, and that Lyanna later grew to hate him). That made me curious into delving back to see what the books tell us and try to see where the narrative is leading us. Or maybe, more specifically, it's the roses I want to follow. The winter roses.

**The Introduction**

GRRM does a beautiful misdirection in the first book. Having Ned associate Lyanna again and again with the winter roses in his thoughts, by the time the origin of the winter roses is shown in Ned's last chapter, we have already associated Lyanna singularly with the roses. Rather than feeling the full impact of them being associated with her. So I'd like to go through the winter roses chronologically instead, according to the timeline.

**What is the narrative telling us?**

>Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

>Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when*Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost*.

>*Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.*

>*Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses. "Gods save me," Ned wept. "I am going mad."

This is the origin of the winter roses according to the timeline. We do not get mentions of Lyanna with the winter roses before Rhaegar crowned her with them. When Bran looks back in time and sees Lyanna, she's not seen around those roses. When the Northmen discuss her in her childhood, they don't mention her roses, only her horse-riding skills. In Howland's story of the wolf maid, she is not associated with them. Winter roses start featuring prominently around Lyanna Stark only after Rhaegar crowns her with them. Considering this to be the origin of the roses, I would find it safe to interpret that the roses don't solely symbolize Lyanna, but rather *the bond that grew between Rhaegar and Lyanna*. This way, the roses also work as a great narrative device for Ned to covertly think of R+L without directly giving it away to the readers.

This interpretation fits in very well with the next words, where Ned reaches out to touch the flower crown and feels the thorns underneath that claw at him. The beauty of the petals was hiding the "sharp and cruel" thorns underneath which could draw blood. Just like R+L's love which likely seemed a thing of great beauty to them, but resulted in pain and suffering for both of them and all around them. If, as some other interpretations go, the roses were meant to symbolize only Lyanna as a Stark maiden or represent her connection to Winterfell, it would make no sense for the sharp and cruel thorns to appear underneath.

In the words after, Ned describes her words from bed of blood and again, seemingly out of nowhere mentions how she had loved the scent of winter roses. Why was this sentence put here? In the middle of a seemingly irrelevant of her death? Following the narrative flow of where the roses began a few sentences ago, the meaning is clear. Lyanna had loved the scent of winter roses, loved the beauty of her bond with Rhaegar, maybe ignorant or uncaring of the thorns underneath.

>"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light. "No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. *A storm of **rose** petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as **blue** as the eyes of death.*

This is our next memory of Lyanna after the crowning at Harrenhal. Ned clashes with the Kingsguard trying to get to Lyanna, Ned's subconscious and the narrative associates this clash against a background of *storm of rose petals as blue as the eyes of death*. Again, the rose petals are associated with things like pain and blood and death. The blood-streaked sky is the background of the war, the war sparked by R+L's actions, the beautiful petals are still blowing, though they are "death". Rhaegar who is dead and Lyanna who is dying, their love that has started the fire that killed them both and many more including all the kingsguard and many northmen here here. (Though the situation was far more nuanced than just R+L being responsible for all the bloodshed that happened).

> "I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. *Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses.* Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. *Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the **rose** petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.* After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. *"Lyanna was … fond of flowers."*

Now we come to her death. Ned remembers her room which had smelled of blood and roses. More importantly, he recalls the rose petals spilling from her palm as she died, implying that she had been holding on to them until the point of the death. The fact that her room smelled of roses itself implies that she had been making an effort to keep the roses around her, nothing was forcing her to have them around considering Rhaegar had left her months ago and died as well. (Unless anyone thinks evil Rhaegar ordered his Kingsguard to keep bringing roses to her against Lyanna's will? Or that the Kingsguard wanted to force her to continue having the roses around her? Imo that's ridiculous). It seems clear if we follow the narrative that the only roses these can be are the winter roses which connects her with Rhaegar. The fact that she took the effort to keep surrounding herself with roses, that she held onto the roses *until the moment of her death*, seems pretty irrefutable proof that she loved Rhaegar till the very end.

I have seen interpretations before that she was holding onto the roses as they symbolized her connection with Winterfell and her home. Apart from the reasons I had already mentioned above regarding why the roses clearly don't represent Winterfell, there is also the fact that if Lyanna wanted a connection to her home, her brother Ned Stark should be a much clearer option to cling onto rather than the roses connected heavily with Rhaegar (who according to this interpretation, she must have grown to hate). If it was only about her desire for home, we would have only gotten mentions of how hard she clung to Ned, there was no reason to mention the roses. But they were mentioned. And she did. She clung onto the roses as hard as she'd clung on to Ned, until death forced her to let go. This is capital R romanticism, Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips, Lyanna died with his roses (the last remnant of their love) in her palm. They died thinking of each other. And the roses, the roses are now "dead and black" just as both of them are.

After remembering that moment, Ned tells Robert that he brings her flowers. That Lyanna had loved flowers (note the ellipses). Lyanna had loved the scent of winter roses, even as they'd brought her death. She had loved Rhaegar, even as that brought her so much pain.

> Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. "The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister's name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna." *Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep.* "I do not know which of you I pity most."The queen seemed amused by that. "Save your pity for yourself, Lord Stark. I want none of it."

Next, Ned thinks of the roses when he speaks with Cersei. And this, I love this!! Ned having to confront Robert's love for his sister and all that had cost him (not getting into Robert's vices here), knowing that Lyanna had loved Rhaegar. To see his friend cost himself a life and the love of Cersei by not getting over Lyanna, unknowing that Lyanna had never loved him! What Ned doesn't know but the narrative enriches is "I do not know which of you I pity the most" because Cersei had wanted Rhaegar as much as Robert had wanted Lyanna. Both were defeated so thoroughly by R+L's love for eachother.

>He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. "Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. *She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.* Eddard Stark jerked upright, his heart racing, the blankets tangled around him. The room was black as pitch, and someone was hammering on the door. "Lord Eddard," a voice called loudly.

Nothing much here, just Lyanna again with her garland of roses (aka R+L) reminding Ned of his promise to protect their only son. This is a covert reference to R+L=J. With this, we end Ned's POV and move on to the next references of winter roses.

>She smiled again, a flash of white teeth. *"And she never sung you the song o' the winter rose?" "I never knew my mother. Or any such song."*

The next time the mentions of winter roses crop up again is in Jon's story, where Ygritte asks him if his mother had never sung the song of winter rose to him. To which he responds that he'd never known his mother or such a song, unknowing that this song was the hint to his mother, that this song represented her life.

>North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark's own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he'd made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. 'All I ask is a flower,' Bael answered, 'the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o' Winterfell.'"

>*"Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o' the winter roses be plucked for the singer's payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon's maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain." Jon had never heard this tale before.*

A singer and a Stark maiden. The Stark girl who loved Bael so much that she'd given him a son (just as Jon himself was born) and who later threw herself off a tower when her son brought her Bael's head. Quite a few narrative resonances here, death of the Stark maid in a tower, a relative who had a hand in the death of her love. "No flower so rare nor precious". Is there anything so rare and precious as true, unconditional love? As Maester Aemon says, "We are only human after all, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory and our great tragedy."

> But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. *The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna.* - Theon V, ACOK

The next mention is, oddly enough, in Theon's prophetic dreams. Again, Lyanna is associated with the crown of roses Rhaegar gave her and death. The white gown might represent marriage as it is an interesting detail to have mentioned (instead of just calling it a gown) but I don't have strong opinions on it either way.

The next mention is the most interesting to me, as for the first time, the roses lead to the future rather than the past.

>Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . . - Dany IV, ACOK

>"Perhaps," she said reluctantly. "Yet the things I saw . . .""A dead man in the prow of a ship, a blue rose, a banquet of blood . . . what does any of it mean, Khaleesi? A mummer's dragon, you said. What is a mummer's dragon, pray?" - Dany V, ACOK

And what a lovely image it is. Jon, the sole child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, the only remnant of their love, growing at the Wall. For once, the imagery is overwhelmingly positive. The beautiful blue rose, against all odds, flourishes in the harshest of environments and what's more, it "fills the air with sweetness". Rhaegar and Lyanna might have died, but the child that resulted from their bond is making the world better.

The Conclusion

What's more, even in the latest calendar illustration GRRM had [commissioned](https://www.reddit.com/r/ImaginaryWesteros/comments/1093bgk/2024_calendar_cover_art_by_justin_sweet/), we know instinctively that it is Rhaegar and Lyanna thanks to the winter roses. Rhaegar who crowned Lyanna with these roses. Lyanna who died clutching them till the last moment. Their son who fights to protect the realms of men, doing the duty of a King without even knowing that he is one, that he is the King of the narrative. The blue rose who continues to bloom in the harshest of places.

The significance that in the text, it's Jon and only **JON** who is connected with/represented as the blue winter rose is important. Neither of the Stark maidens, Sansa or Arya, are ever connected with the blue rose in the text itself despite both having love for flowers. No other Stark has this motif in their story. The motif belongs solely to Bael and his Lady Stark, to Rhaegar and Lyanna, to Jon himself. It's the motif of love. Prince Rhaegar had loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it. Lady Lyanna had loved her Prince Rhaegar and their child is saving the realms of men.

The roses that bloomed for them and between them. That showed how beautiful their love was and how painful. The world is cruel, the world is beautiful.

[stormcloudrising]

if d&d knew about jonsa why did they change it? martin said the ending is gonna be the same with more additions which is obvious bc the show cut some of the characters

Why did they marry Sansa to Ramsay, which won’t happen in the books? Why did they write Dany as not having feelings for Daario and leaving him in Essos without a backward glance, which won’t happen in the books, since she chooses him at the end of her last ADWD chapter.

Why did they write the Dornish story in a way that won’t happen in the books…especially the Sand Snakes? Why was Bran the only Stark child that was given the power to warg his direwolf and other animals? Why were the final two seasons and everyone’s individual story sacrificed to Dany’s arc, which won’t be the case in the books? Why was Bran the only greenseer on the show? Why did they make Cersei the ruling queen when Dany attacks, which won’t’ be the case in the book.

I could go on and on, but you get my point. It wasn’t just the Jon and Sansa story that D&D dropped or changed. They changed a lot of storylines, and in the end, they did what George didn’t want and why he chose them over other writers who came to him proposals to adapt the books. They centered the back half of the story around one main character…Dany.

Part of the reason is because unfortunately, George didn’t finish the books in time for a proper adaptation. But another part I think is while D&D are great at adapting completed material as we saw with the first 5 seasons, they are not good at writing complex characterizations or plots on their own.

And so, once it became obvious that George was not going to complete the books on time, they simplified the hell out of the remaining story…including Jon and Sansa because that’s probably going to be the most complicated of the remaining stories to write…even with George handling it.

Truthfully, knowing D&D’s skill set, I don’t think that there is anyway they could have done it without having the printed word from George to adapt. This is because IMO, it’s not just the familial relationship that George will have to deal with but Jon and Sansa’s hidden connection to not just the current magical storyline but the one from the ancient past as well. So, in a way, I’m glad they didn’t attempt to write it on their own.

However, they did drop a lot of hints and if we ever get TWOW from George, I think fans will look back on the show and say, oh, that’s why D&D wrote them like that.

ETA: I haven’t yet watched 3 Body Problem on Netflix, but from what I’ve heard, D&D seems to have done a good job adapting it, which proves my point. They are working with a finished story. Yes, another complex story, but one that is at least completed and so most of the heavy lifting in terms of plotting has already been done for them.

[jackoshadows]

What I don't understand is why Sansa stans, who want to get rid of Arya in Winterfell, go for the laziest fanon of Arya being a tourist - a theory that's borrowed from ultimate hacks D&D and the garbage TV show and which ending GRRM has repeatedly disavowed.

Arya becoming some kind of world explorer at the end pretty much ignores her book story, narrative arc, characterization and throws away the material in her so far written 32 pov chapters for an ending they came up with because of a made up headcanon. An headcanon which is far removed from the book character.

If one wants to get rid of Arya in Winterfell to make way for Sansa, the least they could do is actually read Arya's chapters and attempt to come up with an ending that makes more sense for the character.

Arya is a character who wants to help. From Mycah to Weasel to Samwell Tarly, Arya is someone who stands up against injustice even at great risk to herself. She's selfless and would sacrifice her personal happiness for the greater good. She wants things to be better, for herself, for her friends, for the smallfolk.

One ending could be Arya Stark as a leader of the Riverlands, helping rebuild from the ravages of war, helping the people who survived. Arya, who has the empathy and the skillsets to help them, who has listened and learned from her father on how to govern. We see Willow Heddle take care of orphans and managing an inn with a quiet efficiency that mirrors Arya's and Gendry hanging around helping her. I could see Arya and Gendry continue their relationship, fall in love, marry and settle down in the Riverlands while Arya either rules the Riverlands as the Tully heir/Cat's daughter or as Lady of Harrenhal helps Edmure Tully rebuild the Riverlands.

Or, if Jon Snow leaves for beyond the Wall as the leader of the new territories and lands there, maybe Arya goes with him. Considering their close bond and love for each other and the fact that home is where each other is - something else that is again established in the books - if she had no choice but to leave Winterfell, going with Jon Snow to help him lead the freefolk beyond the Wall could be another option.

Or if Bran does end up becoming King on the Iron Throne, then she could stay in KL to help her much loved baby brother. She wouldn't like leaving Winterfell, but Arya is a character who sacrifices and does what's right, no matter how hard it is for her to do personally. Plus, she wanted to be a king's councillor and build things. Her training and skillsets with the FM would also make her alert to any future LF/Varys types trying to plot against Bran - not that someone who can see into the past and present needs a master spy...

Or Arya and Brienne start a school for young girls who are interested in learning different things and have teachers who actually develop their talents based on what they are good at instead of being hateful for what they cannot be.

In my opinion, any of these endings is better than 'Arya, world explorer' an empty, nonsensical ending that has no connection to the character's book story and is actually contemptuous of the suffering and trauma this child has been through over several books. Meet new people and learn new languages? What do these folks think Arya has been doing so far? The girl's been traveling from her second AGoT chapter, meeting countless people. sailed the narrow seas, engaged with new cultures, learned new languages. She's been there, done that.

What's even more ridiculous is that it's Sansa stans who often engage in the oppression olympics of Sansa having suffered the worst, that Sansa 'deserves' Winterfell because she suffered the most abuse, that the only ending that makes sense for Sansa is being back in Winterfell because she suffered so much etc. And yet according to these very same folks, Sansa is going to roll up her sleeves and tirelessly work to lead the people of the North, while Arya is going on a cruise ship vacation and vlog about the new cuisine she is trying out...Hey, maybe after having suffered the most of ALL characters in the series, maybe it's Sansa who deserves the cruise ship vacation, you know?

We have the author himself saying that Arya's harrowing experiences and journey through Westeros and Essos has aged her up so much that he considers the character older than some of the 40 year olds in the books! And yet there are still people harping on and on about tourist Arya ffs.

I personally think Arya will be in Winterfell at the end of the books, either helping her younger brothers Bran/Rickon lead the North or more probably as a leader in her own right.

Arya is a central character in the series, the female character with the most POV chapters. There's no way GRRM has one of his lead female characters end up playing a supporting role in her brothers or sister's story. No way.

The author has given her the character development in the books to lead the North. She has a hulking huge grey direwolf at her side - the sigil of house Stark. She is the lone Stark who has the Stark look. Her direwolf is named after the first Dornish princess who changed female inheritance in Dorne - a big clue for a character who has chafed against patriarchal restrictions on what women can and cannot do. I mean this is how we are introduced to Arya Stark in her very first AGoT chapter:

“The Lannisters are proud,” Jon observed. “You’d think the royal sigil would be sufficient, but no. He makes his mother’s House equal in honor to the king’s.”

“The woman is important too!” Arya protested. - Arya, AGoT

It's clear to me that her arc is heading towards her being the first Lady of Winterfell/Wardeness of the North, nicely bookending her arc which started with her wanting the woman to be as important as the man, arguing for equality when it comes to their house. That's how organic story telling and building a narrative actually works.

I am aware of the principal Internet forums about A Song of Ice and Fire and I really used to look at the American and English groups. Nowadays, the most important site is Westeros, but I started to feel uncomfortable and I thought it would be a better idea not to get to these sides. The fans use to come up with theories; lots of them are just speculative but some of them are in the right way. Before the Internet, one reader could guess the ending you wanna do for your novel, but the other 10.000 wouldn’t know anything and they would be surprised. However, now, those 10.000 people use the Internet and read the right theories. They say: “Oh God, the butler did it!”, to use an example of a mystery novel. Then, you think: “I have to change the ending! The maiden would be the criminal!” To my mind that way is a disaster because if you are doing well you work, the books are full of clues that point to the butler doing it and help you to figure up the butler did it, but if you change the ending to point the maiden, the clues make no sense anymore; they are wrong or are lies, and I am not a liar. - GRRM

[jonsnowunemploymentera]

With Aegon's dream as well, I think he also used the dream to justify a conquest as some sort of heroic quest in his mind when his want for power was definitely part of it as well.

Yea. Imo what makes the prophecy such a cool addition to the books is that we now have something that seemingly gives the Targaryens a "divine" mandate of sorts. With this prophecy, they now have a noble calling. Fate dictates that they serve a higher purpose, them and their dragons. It instils in them a sense of noblesse oblige I'd imagine. They're the heroes, and as heroes they have a duty to the realm. But just because they're chosen ones doesn't mean they're the only ones. Far from it. Even now, with two Targaryens being central to the conflict, there still exists one Bran Stark whose magic is decidedly NOT Valyrian, but he is just as central to this story if not more so. Even Jon Snow, the last of the Targaryen heirs, uses First Men magic. Not to mention that there are so many people (i.e., the Night's Watch) who have no magical destiny, but they see a duty to the realm just the same. Don't they matter too?

Aegon's actions, or lack thereof, speak to a certain human fallacy in placing any one person as the supreme hero in this story. Because it's not until Alyssane that the Targaryens even paid attention to the Watch, an entity whose entire existence is to stop the Others/Winter. Why didn't Aegon himself do anything? Why didn't he leave instructions for his future descendants to help the Watch either? Did he think that the three conquerors and their dragons would be enough? But that would be so silly because there's no record that they held any extensive tours of the north/the Wall to try and understand what threat they were facing. The winter that brings the Others is magical, and there's the chance that dragons will have a very hard time even flying to begin with. So imagine not strengthening the front line to hold until you get there? Who knows how long the dragons would take to even get to the Wall in the first place.

We really don't know anything so it's all just speculation atp. But regardless, his actions do come off as being rather egoistic. The Watch is the first line of defense. And if the Wall falls, Winterfell is the next front line. Why didn't they even bother to strengthen Winterfell? Maybe I've read too many Wuxia stories but it's always kind of funny how a good emperor is often characterized as one who fully and wholeheartedly supports the general in charge of his front line with troops, money, and other resources. That general in this case is the Lord of Winterfell/Warden of the North. Why he did nothing to bring the Starks into the fold before Rhaegar and Lyanna is beyond me; but to Jace's credit, he did try. But imagine. Aegon didn't look north to Winterfell, but instead looked south to Dorne. You have to laugh.

Aegon reminds me of Azor Ahai tbh - or what we're told of him. It's the story of one singular hero who sacrifices someone else and gets to go down in history as the guy who defeated the enemy. Except it's so diametrically opposed to actual Westerosi legends of who ended the Long Night: legends of the last hero and the NW tell stories of a team effort, with no singular person being exalted as the one responsible for the Others' defeat. Even with the last hero, the children of the forest are the key to success.

But at the end of the day, Aegon's legacy as the conqueror will have good and bad in it. Did he have a huge ego? Sure. Did his silly chair do way more harm than good in the long run? Definitely. BUT, hundreds of years later, it's his descendant who is emboldened as a king of a united realm to go north and do his duty. Stannis is acting as the Protector of the Realm, the Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, legacies left by Aegon. Jon Snow, the last of Aegon's heirs in Westeros, wants to save all men. All of Aegon's kingdom. And I'm not saying that Jon wouldn't want to save humanity if the kingdoms were split up, but it's a lot easier to conceptualize duty when you have one unified people to think about. And it will be Daenerys, Aegon the Conqueror come again, who understands that a queen belongs to all people. Which may not have landed as much had Aegon not conquered and united Westeros under one king to begin with.

[laurellerual]

how do you feel about king in the north arya. i love love your art of lady stoneheart crowning her

Thanks anon! I think the crown of the King in the North will make this change of hands ^

Now the crown is with Lady Stoneheart who is, among other things, looking for Arya with the BwB.

Many agree that a meeting between these two is inevitable due to foreshadowing and the narrative and thematic relationship that binds them.

Imo if when this meeting takes place LS will decide to pass the crown to Arya. In this hypothetical situation she is the only one of her children still alive (as far as LS knows) so I think it makes sense.

I know that there are theories that LS will go north to crown Jon and fulfill Robb's will. But to me this contradicts the characterization of Cat and the actions she has taken since she was resurrected.

Will Arya gladly accept the crown willingly? I don't know, probably not. But it wouldn't surprise me if she ends up being considered sort of an outlaws queen for a while. I think Arya will decide to continue her journey north, but this time she won't do it alone. And then she will pass the crown on to the revived Jon Snow.

It makes sense that Jon is the king of winter from a thematic point of view, but also and above all from a practical one, because there is a will that legitimizes him and because he is the only "Stark" mature enough and prepared for this role.

Also it seems to me that “Girls get the arms but not the swords. Bastards get the swords but not the arms” necessity of a closure. Jon gave Arya a sword, now it's Arya's turn.

Not sure according to which dynamic Jon will end up giving up the crown, but I am convinced that the summer king of the endgame must be Bran. This is one of the few GoT points that seems to have been confirmed by Martin and I expect it to happen.

Of course this is just speculation. And Rickon and Sansa are a little bit of a question mark. A lot of this will depend on the order in which the characters return to the North and the order in which they reunite. Feel free to add the order in which you think this will happen and how you think it might affect the story!

[horizon-verizon]

If bran has always menar to be the king, what fate could wait Daenerys? Dying as Nyssa?

Response to this POST of GoT's Bran actor saying D&D said GRRM always had Bran become the Westerosi king part of his ending.

Some say she will establish her own dynasty in Essos, the empire of Dawn maybe. Others say she will lose all her dragons and still do so. Or marry and retire somewhere, again in Essos, and marry and grow a family.

But I never thought that GRRM would kill her off nor kill her off in a femicidal, uxoricidal storyline. Just as I don't think he will kill off Jon, Tyrion, Bran, or Arya. That is all too expected and done before in other fantasy fiction. And it's boring for being so told often while being too misogynistic a storyline for the current audience (barring the tradcaths, sansa stans, and dudebros). That and to repeat Rhaenyra's story in Dany 1 to 1 and the make it worse by Dany going straight crazy. People love Dany too much, and she very much makes this series.

[kandisheek]

FIC REC WEEK 48 – CROSSOVER

The Perils of Turkey Day by crossingwinter, StormDancer

Pairing: Steve/Tony Rating: T Words: 38,305 Tags: Game of Thrones, Thanksgiving, Domestic Fluff

Summary: “Oh boy. Here we go. Thanksgiving with the Starks.”

Reasons why I love it: Okay, first of all, this characterization of Tony? Probably one of my favorites. In fact, all of the Starks are perfect - Tony slots into their family dynamic so seamlessly that it feels like he's always been there. And of course Steve is an absolute sweetheart. The part with Bran's gift makes me tear up every time, and I love Tony setting Robb on the straight and narrow. This fic is fantastic, and if you haven't read it yet, you are seriously missing out!

Door 72112 by shetlandowl

Pairing: Steve/Tony Rating: E Words: 17,892 Tags: Monsters Inc, Non-Con, Somnophilia

Summary: NSFW Monsters Inc. AU where Steve is employed to enter the world of humans and collect highly desirable hormones and naturally produced chemicals that fetch a handsome price among his people.

Reasons why I love it: This is a delightfully filthy, deeply fucked up and distubing take on the whole concept of Monsters Inc., and I loved every second of it. Fair warning that this gets dark real fast, so if that's not your thing, maybe skip this one. But if you like dark fic, definitely check it out, it's amazing!

Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happy Hour by BladeoftheNebula

Pairing: Steve/Tony Rating: E Words: 17,134 Tags: Mash AU, Enemies to Lovers, Medical Procedures

Summary: “What is your problem?” Steve finally asked, annoyed at the way Stark was acting like there was a storm cloud over his head. Stark reeled back. “My problem? My fucking problem? You walk around this place with a stick jammed so far up your ass I’m surprised you can even bend over to suture!” Steve’s jaw dropped. “At least my head isn’t so big it barely fits through the OR doors.” -- Dr Steve Rogers is finally assigned to work at the MASH 107 army hospital in Korea, just like he’s been wanting since he was drafted. Too bad the Chief Surgeon is such an ass.

Reasons why I love it: FUCK YES, A MASH AU, THIS IS THE BEST THING EVER. When I got the notification for this fic, I was so fucking excited, and I've probably read it a dozen times since, it's so good! The characterizations are perfect, and as always, Neb strikes the perfect balance between angsty and fun with amazing dialogue. I adore this fic, and I bet you will too, so I hope you check it out!

[alleyskywalker]

Discussions the other night on The Discord were making me think about the differences between show!Theon and book!Theon characterization and specifically led me to the thought of how show!Theon has a certain aspect of his canonical counterpart’s characterization reversed. That’s probably not the most accurate way to put it, but what I mean is like:

In the books, every time someone, specifically a Stark (especially specifically Robb), gives him shit, he kind of…just takes it. Put your sword away, Theon; let me humiliate and lowkey threaten you in front of half of my household guard even though you just saved my brother, Theon; why are you so proud of your insignificant war trophies, Theon? He doesn’t really respond or gives only a half-hearted retort/defense. For all the talk of him smiling in a disconcerting way, he kinda never really fights back, even when he’s being attacked with bullshit.

On the other hand, in the show, Theon’s always got something to say (especially to Robb) when he thinks they’re full of shit. “Put away your sword” à “I take orders from your father, not you.” “You have no right” à “to what? To save your brother’s life?” let’s have a row about it! “It’s not your duty, because it’s not your House” à oh now you want to know where Bran is? Sorry, don’t know, “it’s not my House.” Show!Theon, in those first seasons, doesn’t really take any shit, hostage or not.

Then Ramsay happens. Theon is obviously terrorized and tortured into submission, dehumanization, dissociation, etc in both cases. Then he gets out. That’s the plot.

After, show!Theon capitulates to accepting constant humiliation. He never fights it, he never really tries to defend himself, even when he should/could. The Starks are his sole purpose in life, with a slight detour to help out his sister, and that’s in parallel too, but not the center point here. There’s the occasional moment of dignity in how he handles the humiliation, true. Occasionally, he gets the bright spot – snipping at Euron at the kingsmoot, fighting side-by-side with Yara, that smile after the Dragonstone beach fight… But overall, he’s all too willing to degrade himself and to let others degrade/humiliate him, especially if they’re Starks (or “Starks” as with Jon).

In the books…even with all the misery and torture and submission that he’s forced into under Ramsay, he never quite loses that streak of defiance? From thinking that not matter what Ramsay does to him, he can’t take his sanity unless Theon lets him, to thinking smack about how ugly Ramsay and his crew are, to the bitter dark humor when he’s imprisoned and (once again) tortured, this time by Stannis. And yes, this is all very internal and externally he probably would seem just as broken and submissive, etc as show!Theon and I think initially when I watched the show, I just projected Theon’s ADWD defiance onto the show scenes because he could still be having those thoughts. But on re-watch…. The thing is, book!Theon has external  moments as well. From insisting to the spearwives that Bran and Rickon weren’t his brothers so he might be a lot of things but not a kinslayer thanks, to insisting to Stannis, not without pride, “I saved the girl.” Even Stannis laughs at him, he insists on it.

It's just such an interesting (even if I hate the show’s choices, it’s still like interesting) thing how there’s this double reversal where show!Theon starts more aggressively defiant and comfortable in that defiance against power moves, humiliation and submission than book!Theon seems to be, but then after the Ramsay Thing (TM) these characterizations get, relatively to each other, reversed.

[esther-dot]

Lately I've been toying with the idea that Jon will indeed become king of the FF. It's the only reasonable ending for him, the only one that matches both Jon's show ending and Sansa's book foreshadowing (to marry a king, not a prince, not a king who had been). I think the show ending on such ambiguous (and bitter!) terms for Jon was decided because of the sequel. In other words, I'm considering the possibility that M. will transfer his 5year gap at the end, and we'll see them again at the end after some time will have lapsed and they'll be older and firmly in their positions. But, with this ending I'm afraid we'll only get hints of Jon and Sansa's romance on page, and nothing too explicit (although I guess that it might have a role in Daeny's death).

I think that, throughout the book, the famous "the FF don't kneel" is only meant to be subverted: they will kneel to Jon, after everything he has done for them, and he will probably settle them in the Gift(s). In my opinion, this ending is truly poetic. If ASoIaF is a fairytale, then the hidden prince does not become king because of his inheritance (which he has already foresaken just as he will reject the Targaryen inheritance: so vividly given as "I don't want it!" in the show, lol), but has forged a kingdom for himself, because he is truly worth it. I am not sure that he will go to the Wall because he will be punished, but regardless, he will become king of the FF. If it will be like this, then Jon's ending is the apotheosis of subversions.

And only as an equal will he be able to marry Sansa: when Sansa becomes queen, everybody will want her for her claim twice over, unless her husband is already king. I think this ending is foreshadowed in her ASOS, Sansa IV chapter: two castles in the sky, one black, one grey, become one in all the colors of spring. Note that this is something Sansa sees in the morning sky, meaning after dawn.

And with this explanation I've made peace with the disastrously ambiguous ending of GoT.

I wish you'll make your peace too, Esther!

(old anon btw, anxiously waiting for your posts for years, and now this darn thing made take a name. So be it).

It's so nice to finally "meet" you @justleaves!

I like that reading of book foreshadowing and the mess GoT gave us. You know I can't agree with most of the fandom that we can entirely or even mostly dismiss the show's ending. Too much of it gave me that, "it was always meant to be this way" feeling and since the ending of the show, Jonsas have turned up a lot of foreshadowing for Arya sailing away, King Bran, Dark Dany, Jaime and Cersei dying together...so many things were kinda-sorta right, just presented so horribly they felt wrong!

I've always felt very weird about Jon becoming King of the FF, most of us Jonsas reject that out of hand because it really rubs us the wrong way, but I had a series of anons critical of Martin's handling of aspects of Dany's POV some time ago, particularly how he characterized the Dothraki, and I did go back to read/re-watch some interviews, and I've accepted he doesn't share our sensibilities there, or on a handful of other issues. I hadn't even realized I was projecting when I dismissed the possibility of a kid from a different culture becoming the leader of an indigenous group. To me that is inherently negative. But of course, at the time when Martin began all this, it wasn't generally perceived that way, and we have Mance so...

Right after GoT ended some of us speculated that not including the Gift was why they had Jon ride off past the Wall with the FF, while in the books, he might be responsible for the Gift, so I really like how you've blended the two. I've written before about how it would make sense to me that Jon rejects the Stark/Northern claim and then rejects the Targaryen/Southern claim, and is rewarded in he end for those decisions, and I think it would be a more satisfying resolution to the bastard struggle if he is chosen as a leader because of who he is rather than who his "father" is (whether we mean Ned's son -> KitN or Rhaegar's son -> Targ heir). The way Jon is of the North, has such connections to the Starks (whether as Ned's bastard or Lyanna's boy post parentage reveal) as well as his time with the FF, the understanding he has and care he has for them which others do not, well, it certainly sets him up as a great bridge between the cultures. A person uniquely capable of creating a lasting peace.

I also really like your idea of the time-lapse because a) Sansa's age b) allowing all these revelations time to settle. I can't rationalize how the cast of characters would accept Jon as the legitimized son of Ned, only to turn around and accept that actually he's Lyanna's son, and how they'd be ok with a Jonsa marriage immediately thereafter. And that's not even dealing with how he'll be perceived/the rumors that will be swirling around him post rez and whatever his actions are immediately after. Love it in fics, but when I think about it in Martin's words, hard for me to imagine, so the idea that in a few years after Jon has established himself they'd be able to marry, that makes sense to me.

I think this ending is foreshadowed in her ASOS, Sansa IV chapter: two castles in the sky, one black, one grey, become one in all the colors of spring. Note that this is something Sansa sees in the morning sky, meaning after dawn.

That is a beautiful reading of the scene! I can easily see that being the idea! The other reading I've seen on this is that it's the Jon and Sansa competing claims being joined as the solution to the Northern succession crisis (that may be @agentrouka-blog's spec? I'm not successfully turning anything up atm). I had actually written into the margins in my copy "sounds like Winterfell" by the line about a castle in ruins, and later in ASOS, we have back to back Jon and Sansa chapters that talk about Winterfell and have a weird number of similarities (link). But, specifically, the ruins/rebuilding idea seems like it points to Jon and Sansa's stories converging and allowing them to restore Winterfell together:

The warmth took some of the ache from his muscles and made him think of Winterfell's muddy pools, steaming and bubbling in the godswood. Winterfell, he thought. Theon left it burned and broken, but I could restore it. Surely his father would have wanted that, and Robb as well. They would never have wanted the castle left in ruins. (Jon XII, ASOS) The snow fell and the castle rose. Two walls ankle-high, the inner taller than the outer. Towers and turrets, keeps and stairs, a round kitchen, a square armory, the stables along the inside of the west wall. It was only a castle when she began, but before very long Sansa knew it was Winterfell. She found twigs and fallen branches beneath the snow and broke off the ends to make the trees for the godswood. For the gravestones in the lichyard she used bits of bark. Soon her gloves and her boots were crusty white, her hands were tingling, and her feet were soaked and cold, but she did not care. The castle was all that mattered. Some things were hard to remember, but most came back to her easily, as if she had been there only yesterday. The Library Tower, with the steep stonework stair twisting about its exterior. The gatehouse, two huge bulwarks, the arched gate between them, crenellations all along the top . . . (Sansa VII, ASOS)

So as always, I see the pros, I see the cons, I can't make up my mind, but I'm ok with that. I have no problem talking about GoT/my frustrations when I get an ask, but after I wrote my post canon fic Free, I just...wasn't angry anymore. D&D's choices will always baffle me, I'm disappointed we don't have TWOW yet, but I enjoy the different spec, fics, gifs, and art we have in the Jonsa fandom, so as long as we're all having fun, I'm happy.

I'd love to read any other observations you have about ASOIAF and fairytales, I think posts about parallels with other lit are fascinating!

[lemonhemlock]

I'm a 'Martin won't ever publish another ASOIAF book' truther but in addition to King Bran being profoundly idiotic, Martin has major structural issues that are now too 'big' to 'fix' imo. Namely, the ages of the characters are ridiculous and are all wrong for where their arcs need to go. The characters on the show were aged up and even the younger ones grew up on screen so Bran and Sansa and Arya were at least into late teens/adulthood at the end of the show - one is 13 and other is currently 11 and Bran is like, what, 8 in books? sksksksksk Just absolutely disastrous.

The characters should have been in their mid to late teens at the start of AGOT, at minimum. Especially because Martin essentially treated them, and has them act, like adults. I'm sorry, but I don't think that man has any understanding between the mental and physical developmental differences between, say, a 14 year old girl and a 17 year old girl. Every character appears and acts like they are anywhere from 3 to 5 years older than they are.

Also, the POV structure, while interesting, has also been disastrous in actually getting the story moving because certain characters have to be in certain places for things to happen while others are just sitting around killing time.

Hmmm, I don't really agree about the POV structure. It functioned fine for three books and offered compelling court drama, battles, magical elements and intriguing plot-twists. AGOT / ACOK / ASOS are pretty well paced and I've even seen someone making the case that the series could even have ended in that point and would have been one of the best fictional fantasy experiments. I found myself agreeing and disagreeing. I think the ASOS ending would have still distinguished ASOIAF from other fantasy series in its toppling of the good-guys-win-everything type of wrap-up, but it would be way less ambitious than what GRRM ended up pursuing.

The pacing problems came about with AFFC/ADWD. And I'm not one to talk here, because I'm an AFFC truther and it's always been my favourite of the series, so my two cents on this is that Dany's Slaver's Bay plotline is too damn long. Tyrion is also taking too damn long to get to her. It's a drag. In the book she is supposed to solve the Quaithe riddle,* escape Vaes Dothrak, get herself an army + navy, make the decision to leave Slaver's Bay AND sail to Westeros, so that in TWOW she can fight Young Gryff, face-off the Others, become a mask-off tyrant AND get deposed? It's a lot.

I honestly think he should just give up the 7 book compartmentation, admit defeat and just add another damn book to the series to get Dany to Westeros and fit in his fAegon plotline. It's not like he doesn't have the pages. No one's gonna care if there are 8 books instead of magic no 7. But my guess is that he's hung up over some decisions he's made in the past and kept trying to make the gargantuan plot fit inside this neat box he envisioned - 7 books, King Bran, Caesar!Jon etc. It would explain why he tried a time skip between ASOS and AFFC and had to scrap it - it would make more sense for the Stark children to be older. But he characterized himself as a gardener-style writing who doesn't plan everything in advance and lets the story grow organically. In that case, he should make allowances if the story grew in a direction he did not initially predict and make the required changes! Maybe King Bran made sense when he first wrote the initial three-book outline, but that was a long time ago & many other plot points changed.

My advice is to just stop trying to make the plot fit the previous designs, stay true to the way the characters evolved and respect the themes you've painstakingly developed over the course of nearly 30 years. Otherwise what's the point? If your original ending doesn't fit anymore, think of another ending ffs. The show is irrelevant at this point, so what if the endgame will be different? IDK, I'd be thinking that this is my life's work and I have every right to do it justice. Perhaps that's what he's thinking too and why it's taking him so long.

I agree that the ages of the characters are ridiculous, but if a time skip really, really can't fit anywhere, it's better to compromise on the age issue and leave off with a teen monarch than it would be to impose a surveillance state in Westeros as the solution with all-seeing, all-knowing Bran. That's a starkly dystopic ending, if you ask me.

Not to mention that it clashes directly with the end of magic - how is Bran supposed to be the Tree of Sauron if there's no magic anymore and everything goes back to normal? On what basis does he even get to be king at all if he's just a regular boy? How will he even survive being pulled out of the weirwood net if magic leaves the realm of men?

*“To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.” JFC, if Dany has to get to Asshai, I will fucking scream.

[fromtheseventhhell]

Some reactors just finished the red wedding and they were devastated because like who do they root for?! Jon isn’t a stark really and they were like hopes on Arya as in being a leader and fighting and leading armies and stuff,getting revenge and winning against lannisters since they are always winning. And it just reminded me again on how everyone probably was rooting for Arya to get even and get the revenge and be in power later on regardless what because she is the only Stark they were rooting for and jOn for any sort of win. And how the show just practically tried to gaslight us that sansa is the one stark that we were rooting for and hope for revenge and power because she is the starkest stark. the writers really did everything for the dudebros to love sansa. her being anti dany and being neDs dAuGhteR to speak up against the ViLLainS and for the north bc jon is dumb and pussy stricken and arya doesn’t give a fck and bran is just there.. like the absolute fuckery and clownery.

What's funny is that even from the beginning they were showing their favoritism towards Sansa, and yet Arya was always the more popular character. There was only so much they could change and while they were sticking to the books, Arya has always had a more proactive arc that was rooted in her identity as a Stark. It just made more sense that she would be the one more heavily involved in the North, which was proven with how much they had to change things to have that switch to Sansa. They didn't find her book arc interesting enough (which is something her stans also think) so they just lifted one related to other characters and then couldn't even do that right! At most it increased sympathy to her character because of what she went through but it took a wrecking ball to existing plot lines and characterizations.

And you can really tell who the Key Five are just by watching the show. Arya, Dany, Jon, Tyrion, and Bran were all reduced to flat, one-dimensional characters to make room for Saint Sansa and it was ultimately the downfall of the show. D&D thought that their personal preferences were more important then anything else. The plot lines didn't make any sense, the characters were inconsistent, and there was barely anything going on because they didn't have the skill to handle complex story lines and characters.

Why people still think, or want, the books to follow the show I'll never know. Fans of the actual story are (im)patiently waiting for the books to be finished so we can see the actual ending.

[esther-dot]

I think book Sansa might play the show Jon role when it comes to Theon. Show Jon wanted to kill Theon for what he did to Starks but also forgave him for what he did for Sansa. In books Sansa doesn't think much about Theon except when she talks about Bran when asked by Tyrion somewhere around after Bran's perceived death. She might not like him but looking at what he did for Jeyne, she might forgive him and atleast understand from where he approached his issue against the Starks even though as misguided and disastrous it was like how show Jon forgave him after Theon helped Sansa in the show. Just my speculation.

(About this ask)

You know, that does make sense because of book Sansa’s characterization. D&D were so dedicated teasing the Dark Sansa idea it wouldn’t have really worked to permit too much of her compassion and mercy to come through, so I definitely can buy that they gave that idea to Jon when actually, it is Sansa who feels for people in-spite of herself.

[mirdaniaa]

sometimes i think about the way game of thrones ended and i legit start tearing up like why did they have to do that to us