#bioware negative

[baejax-the-great]

Massive Veilguard spoilers ahead, but this post I made in June now just... baffles me.

It's a reference to the start of the game where Varric points out correctly that people are dying, and Solas says, "That's what they do."

And I assumed, along with, oh, around 5k people on tumblr i guess, that this was Solas's doublespeak. He is tearing down the Veil because people are dying--he lost them their immortality thousands of years ago and he is trying to restore it. People dying right now is an ongoing crisis that he is trying to solve, but ultimately unimportant to the end result of people being immortal again, when they will stop dying.

Except... we get to the end of the game, and that isn't his motivation anymore. Doesn't even mention it. Doesn't mention any of the benefits of getting rid of the Veil. Just says the world is wrong and it's not how it was when Mythal was alive.

So this brilliant doublespeak at the beginning of the game laying out his motivation that we know from Trespasser is... not that. It's nothing. Were the writers misleading us about what this game was going to be? Did they forget they retconned the shit out of Solas and forgot to make this line make sense? Is Solas just supposed to be a callous murderous asshole now?

????????

Varric: People are dying!!

Solas, who invented people being able to die and is currently trying to uninvent that: Yeah, man. Glad we can agree on this.

[alisadraws]

I must share this so my moots can find it and laugh with me Also this, a very nice comparison with actual good writing and acting in baldur's gate 3

[michaeljoncarter]

can somebody please sound the alarm and get that little bitch from kotaku back on the bioware beat because i desperately need to know how the hell something like veilguard even happens

[insufferablewarden]

I want to talk about this take from my main blog because I want to double down on it.

I truly think that Veilguard is a bad Dragon Age game.

I don’t mean to sound like a bitch, but I really hate that people feel like this is a good Dragon Age game. I hate that people use the excuse that Dragon Age reinvents itself every game in its defense. I hate that people think that this is what a Dragon Age game is. And I’ve been hearing that this is “still a Dragon Age game” even from some critical reviews.

My rebuttal, if I was being flippant, is that the vibe is simply off. It doesn’t feel right.

If I have to put my disappointment and anger into words, I would say:

No, the heart of the games has never changed. The idea that your worldview is shaped by your past and that you can be a hero or a villain depending on who tells the story has never changed. Navigating complex and sometimes race/class-based politics has never changed. The ability for you to earn approval and disapproval based on personality-defining dialogue choices and/or meaningful choices hadn’t changed. Being able to go up and talk to characters (companions most of all) to learn about who they are and how Thedas has shaped them has never changed. Companions not solely based on tropes and nebulous ideas of what makes a cute relationship used to exist. Lore reveals were handled with care and sprinkled throughout the game rather than thrown at you one after the other. Gameplay never used to insult your intelligence by handing you an explanation to everything within seconds of being presented with a problem. This series of roleplaying games used to let you roleplay even if it was just respecting what tone you wanted to use.

Or, something like that.

When people tell me that this is a good Dragon Age game, it feels like they’re comparing this legacy of games to one of those Marvel movies or remakes that doesn’t need to exist, but does because it has a built in audience and will make them money. It feels devoid of what made the old games special to me. I know that the other games aren’t perfect. Not even in all of the respects I mentioned earlier, but I felt like BioWare gave a shit? Even Dragon Age: II with all of its flaws has this beautiful cast of characters and (narratively) fleshed out city and Dragon Age: Inquisition with all of its fetch quests had some of the most complex characters, interesting quest mechanics, and this highly ambitious (if flawed) setting design. This game is so half-baked that I barely understand what it’s about or who it’s really for.

In fact, after I finished the game, it took me a few days to get over feeling negatively about the entire series. I was terrified that Veilguard had ruined this series that I’d loved for half my life for me. I felt stupid. I hate that I care so much when I’m not certain that they do. Or, being more charitable, I’m not certain that BioWare is capable of making a product with care under EA.

I don’t know. Maybe this is a Dragon Age game, but if it is, I’m not sure I want another one.

[alisadraws]

The cursed Mythal bathwater choice doesn't exist because it contradicts THE DEVS story.

At the end of this crap, if your inquisitor romanced Solas she cries for him to stop, he doesn't listen, Morrigan swoops in to fart Mythal's ghosts, Solas listens to her and he fucks off into the horizon to live happily ever after with the inquisitor hand in hand.

That's it, that is the solavellan ending they were able to imagine, that's why we can't import any choices: it would contradict the lame ass 5th grader fanfiction these people wanted to tell.

Screaming into the void about Veilguard. Spoilers!

I have this written somewhere else, but I might as well put it here.

It feels so shallow. None of the places we visit feel like they're even on the same planet as how they're described in the original 3 games, and there's no current politics or set world-state as you can't transfer over choices/saves from past games.

I was surprised when we didn't see an intense scene about slavery or the horrors that regularly occur in Tevinter when Dorian paints such a detailed picture of his home in DAI.

Elves have been turned into humans basically, Dalish no longer exist or feel like they have culture. No longer are they suspicious of outsiders. Hey, join the veil-jumpers and get your grubby shem fingers all over ancient artifacts! Essentially Jesus Christ has come back to earth and none of them seem that bothered about it. It should be chaos among the Dalish as they're so hardcore in their beliefs, established by lavellan and Solas' encounters with them in DAI.

The factions just feel like filler that all have the same feel and milquetoast goody-two shoes goal.

Everyone's accents are all over the place. I heard maybe 1 guy sound Tevene in Tevinter, everyone else was American/Dwarven-esque or Fereldan. It's like Andromeda all over again. They just don't care about the details.

No true arguments or bashing of heads, no characters have a strong opinion one way of politics/beliefs that could be seen as morally wrong. No one feels real.

Not even to mention (SPOILERS!)

Solas for some reason 'abhors' blood magic, when in DAI he was willing to teach you if he knew it.

They butchered Solas' character. They're acting as though he's always been cold and evil, out for revenge, and even in his memories during his rebellious days he sacrificed tons of spirits to get what he wanted, which couldn't be further from his character. They also forgot about the implied elven uprising that was growing at the end of Trespasser. Not once does the game mention an agent, or does he have any followers.

There's an ending that says every big choice in past games (Loghain's betrayal, corypheus going into the golden city) was orchestrated by a secret no-name organization that is basically the illuminati, destroying all agency of past characters.

I haven't finished the game, but I hear the titans are never truly touched on other than Lace's powers.

The crows who torture and kill innocents are seen as this group that helps keep the streets safe...?

Why was solas so against the grey wardens killing archdemons if nothing bad happens when you kill them and they're just creatures assigned to each of the elven pantheon? In DAI he acted as though killing Archdemons was a dangerous thing and would worsen the world.

What ever happened to the soul of the old god that Mythal took from Morrigan's child, then Solas took from Mythal? Is that ever touched on?

What about the well of sorrows!?

I should've steeled myself against this game being bad. I knew it was coming. But man, I love the other three dragon age games so it's still horrible to see it happen. I think solas' character assassination was one of the worst things this game did as he's one of the most interestingly written villains IMO (In inquisition).

[unveiling-unguarding]

"People hated DA2 and Inquisition when they launched but love them now. The same thing will happen to DA:TV"

Like hell it will. Veilguard gives empty answers to empty questions with empty characters. There is nothing deeper to sustain it.

[brekkie-e]

Ok. I am all for giving Veilgaurd the space to be it's own game and appreciate it for what it is, but every time I see a person who openly talks about only getting in to dragon age this year or some other nonsense go off about how long term fans hate the game cause they cant handle change I see red.

I mean, to be a Dragon Age fan, you have to be able to accept change. Change is at the core of the experience. Whether that's a good thing or bad thing is a different question. But if you're a long-term fan of the series, you've succeeded in the task of accepting change.

The criticisms of Veilgaurd are, in my opinion, a little unique to the franchise. For all Inquisition tweaked certain lore and it irritated a lot of people- it did so with self-awareness and intention. I am thinking about how it did the Dalish dirty in many respects. For all I do not agree with that writing direction, the game itself atleast acknowledges it is 1. New information. 2. Dependent on the clan. 3. Gives you the room to roleplay your character according to previously established lore. This is just one example, of course.

Veilgaurd is unique in the fact it ignores much of the series pre-established lore and in no way owns up to it.

I have seen a lot of hateful comments about how Origins hasn't been the framework of the series since 2009. And yeah, sure to a degree that is true. The gameplay certainly got tossed out. But in many ways, Dragon Age 2 is a direct continuation of that world and setting. DA2 and Origins and the lore they established are solid and share a vision. Play as a Mahariel and engage with Merril's clan. It's the same world. The same npc's. Inquisition does not deviate that far from that vision when you look past the companions all playing devil's advocate.

I really don't think everyone disappointed with this game or finding it lacking are "blinded by nostalgia." Most Dragon Age fans will be the first ones to tell you the franchise is a mess. But acting like the games that established it as beloved to it's fans are no longer relevant is so nasty to me. You as a newer fan would not be able to play Veilgaurd if the older fans had not made the previous titles financial successes. If they had not kept the love for the series alive, this new game would never have made it out of development.

The game is good. It's enjoyable to play. It's not without its charms. It should be given room to shine for what it is. It's a miracle we have it given the development journey it went on.

But it's also a massive smack in the face to many people who loved all three previous titles. And that's a bad thing. And I hope future titles remember the lore and tone of the series better.

These two things can both be true.

[wizardsix]

I can't be the only one who thinks it's so lame that spite ultimately had 0 effect on lucanis whereas the writers made anders suffer for just wanting to live.

[whereismywarden]

"We wanted to make the game accessible to new players."

It's not though. Not entirely. The plot is a direct follow-up to Trespasser. And romantic or not, the relationship between Solas and the Inquisitor will apparently play a pivotal role. By definition, you're already including content that could make new players feel like they're missing parts of the story (which they are).

Also, you could easily have a default worldstate with next to no references to the older games while still giving returning players the opportunity to input a few additional choices that could crop up if relevant in codex entries or background dialogue. I forgot which game it was, but I remember playing a game once that asked you at the start whether or not you wanted to see past events be referenced during the story. It really could have been that simple.

But by choosing to remove past choices from the game entirely, not only are you not really making the game more accessible to new players, but you might end up alienating half your existing player base.

[zundely]

Sorry for a little petty and not a very positive post but it gets on my nerves a little when I see people being like "My RPG choice/romance is in the Bioware CANON WORLDSTATE we won!" like I dunno what to tell you man, congrats your singleplayer game choices were approved by the corporate or whatever but it's a little weird you want to use it to make your, again, singleplayer RPG game choices feel more valid then other ones.

And while in plot choices it's bad because it feels unecessary discourse about which choices are the 'correct ones', it really rubs me the wrong way when it is about romance options. Because first- there obviously shouldn't be a right and wrong romance choice. There shouldn't be secret winning romance. And second- if it is a thing that there is a romance option that gets loads of attention from creators because they chose it as more canon then others... yall realise why this is actually a bad thing right? Especially when usually it's a straight locked romance? And how it's especially bad when there is no alternative with comparable plot relevance? Like I dunno if that's winning guys when all but one choice in the game with multiplechoices don't get any followup in the narrative.

[agirlking]

The Veilguard subreddit has not heard of critical thinking or expecting quality out of something you pay for. It is insane over there. "It's not bad at all! GoTY!" Holy shit.

Btw this post isn’t for anti Solavellan people. Stop blaming us for liking a ship and acting like that made DA4 what it is. BioWare has been on a downward spiral for a long time, the game was in development hell, and many people were fired. The fans mindlessly giving them money right now (who are NOT only Solavellans) are contributing to future issues by giving them a pass, but even they didn’t create these problems.

[baejax-the-great]

[lords-of-fortune]

Me, months ago: oooo I hope we see isabela as one of the lords of fortune contacts in veilguard!

The sinister monkey's paw: [curls another finger so that it is flipping me off]

[galedekarios]

i don't know how to put this into words yet so it makes complete sense so bear with me while i gather my thoughts, but...

i think a lot of the criticism i have re: decisions bioware made with veilguard are (at least in part) the company's direct responses to the (in my eyes) often unfounded and disproportionate hate that inquisition received from the fanbase.

[lafaiette]

Also, can we talk about magic? i suppose they wanted to make the game more luring to new players, but magic used to be rare, closed under the lock and feared. Mages were feared and cosidered dangerous. Tevinter was an execption, not a general rule. How come people forgot only ten years ealier there was a regular war between mages and chantry, the very reason Inquisition was formed? Why is there magic, anciet elven magic behin every corner? It feels like reboot.

"It feels like reboot"

Because it is a reboot 💀 Or at least, it's the first step towards one.

Explaining how magic is seen in Thedas, all the different opinions and fears and hopes people have about it, would have been impossible in a single game clearly aimed at luring new players in. They put all the major pieces of explanation in the codex (one part of it is filled and complete since from the start of the game, because it's basically a catalogue detailing everything about Thedas), and let you play as a mage to your heart's content, with no strings, no responsibilities attached.

They tried to preserve some logic in Minrathous - there's mention of how Tevinter's families try to breed the perfect mages to rise in power and influence, so that's good. But you also see a "Noble" mingling with a "Civilian" among the fishermen, and telling her she shouldn't waste time and money on making things better for the poor people. What the hell is she doing there, then? Why isn't she in Minrathous proper, drinking wine and looking down on the poor districts?

Just around every corner, a few feet away from the closest tavern, Venatori are constantly putting up blood magic barriers. The same in the Necropolis, with the Venatori making camp just one door behind the main hub where the Mourn Watch is stationed. Everyone performs rituals, the Circles are barely mentioned, a Forbidden One is hiding behind a door in the Necropolis' main hall and no one ever noticed it before, not even Emmrich.

Statues of Fen'Harel and the Evanuris, elven relics and elven contraptions are hidden everywhere - everywhere. To show how vast and influential the elven empire was? That was probably the devs' intent. Does it always make sense? No. Is it for gameplay purposes, to fill the map with puzzles and stuff to find like in the 2000s? Obviously.

In Inquisition, there was an entire area of the Hinterlands ravaged by the Templars and rebel mages. The refugees were scared of walking the roads to find food because there was wild magic flying around. Rabid templars crazy on lyrium roamed the woods, and the Chantry was powerless.

Elven ruins were scattered around with sense, with a purpose, barely visible among the vegetation, forgotten and avoided, or almost forced to fuse with Chantry's buildings (just look at the Emerald Graves). There was a logic behind the NPCs' and props' locations in the world.

Here, there is simply no logic or consequence to anything ever. The Black Divine is never addressed, as far as I remember. Dalish clans have lost any distinction - the only elven faction you meet is that of the Veil Jumpers, which is a weird cocktail of elves who all know how bad the Evanuris are and random humans and Qunari. Yes, there are humans being allowed to guard ancient elven artifacts in a Dragon Age game. No, they are not called shem. Yes, they all get along swimmingly.

The Crows are not slavers and dangerous figures anymore - they're actually the heroes of Treviso! They treat their fledgling Crows with care and respect, no torture involved. Where did you hear such a preposterous idea? Zevran? Who's Zevran?

Taash says the Qun isn't a prison. How is that possible? They sent assassins after Bull when he defected. They hunt Vashoth and Tal-Vashoth if they dare leave, and if a sten loses his sword, he cannot return home, because his brethren would kill him, as "to a Qunari warrior, the sword is the soul."

So yeah, this was definitely supposed to be a reboot for Dragon Age, just like Andromeda was supposed to be one for Mass Effect. That's why everything falls flat.

[ayrennaranaaldmeri]

the fact is, if varric lives (and that's an if bc maybe solas does kill him lmao idk how much to trust that minimap reveal) it IS weird that you can't customise a hawke or account for the decision because it would be a little weird if a man who has lived through a wannabe god + blight dragon attacking warden fortress has nothing to say about ghilan'nain and her blight dragon attacking a warden fortress, especially if he potentially lost his best friend (Hawke). It's not outlandish for people to be a little disappointed to not get some customisation there because the choices are not equal to varric. the loss of hawke is obviously a bigger impact on him than whichever warden is there. given varric's personality, it's not outlandish to expect him to talk about it with Rook either especially considering weisshaupt is a thing that happens in the game. if he dies beforehand it doesn't matter, but if he's going to be around? yeah you'd think he'd be talking about it here.

speaking of weisshaupt, A PLACE YOU GET TO GO, a hero of ferelden who made the ultimate sacrifice IS FUCKING INTERRED THERE. But it's just "whining" to expect a nod (esp one that you can customise so it's your hero of ferelden) i guess.

regardless of whether morrigan has mythal or not, who she is as a person does change based on whether she was romanced and whether she had a child. it is natural that this matters and people aren't stupid to be tentatively concerned that nothing of her history is "required" but she's apparently this important vip character who will have more involvement in the game than you expect. like you are allowed to ask: okay what does this mean, what will she be like, will she be the same character i've loved across multiple games?

people are allowed to be upset or concerned that a game series that historically took your choices and your decisions into account has watered that down to 3 choices when certain choices that WOULD impact characters that appear in THIS game aren't. (and to be clear being upset does not mean harassing the devs, don't do that).