#being queer isnt just about not being straight or cis or allo

[theevilicecreamsoda]

Gold star lesbians are so lame… nobody cares you haven’t fucked a man okay? A lesbian is a lesbian if they say they are because fuck you. Nobody fucking cares if a lesbian has sex with a man they’re still a lesbian. Graduate from fucking kindergarten, your queer elders would be disappointed.

[bli-o]

Hey hey, im an (unfortunately) female presenting enby ace who is aroflux, occasionally being romantically attracted to women and enbies(you could call me acearoflux demineptunoromantic but thats a damned prescriptivist mouthful)

i face homophobia in my day to day due to romantic attraction to women, I have an opinion to share!

cis heteroromantic aces are an entirely valid part of the LGBTQ community who go through some of the worst aspects of aphobia, especially women.

in hetero relationships allonormativity is ESPECIALLY common. I am so glad I’m not attracted to men because straight men just have sexual expectations so much more than women.

i dont ever want to be in a relationship where the other person is disappointed that I dont want sexual activity. It would undoubtedly be harder to find someone when your dating pool is mostly straight men.

we need to suck up this “cishet aces are still privileged” bullshit. Maybe they are, sure, but everyone who isnt allo, cis, and straight goes through their own struggles, entirely individual to their own orientation. I don’t give a shit about whatever privilege meter people have made up for my fellow queers. Heteroromantic aces struggle too. That’s what the LGBTQ movement is about, fighting for EVERYONE’S equality. Everyone who is threatened can unite under our flag, even if they dont have it as bad as others.

A queer’s a queer and that’s that.

[nothorses]

i think i agree with your culturally christoan post, or at least it made me think abt it in a way i hadnt yet. but idk how i feel abt the paragraph talking abt queer allos? i kinda feel like its not a good comparison bc allo isnt abt straightness at all, so ofc they werent called culturally straight? a better comparison would be if people had been calling ace people culturally allonormative i think? idk maybe im just getting too caught up in semantics.

The point of the comparison to "allo" discourse is that the people pushing for "culturally Christian" as a word for individuals (rather than "Christian hegemony", or a cultural issue) generally argue that they are "naming their oppressors", and as such, "oppressors" shouldn't get a say. Comparisons are often drawn to people in privileged groups insisting they don't want to be "lumped in with their oppressors", and "allo" is a good example of that: the constant refrain against the word "allo" was that it "lumped [queer] people in with their oppressors".

But that doesn't actually work as a comparison, because "allo" names part of a unique axis of power; this axis centers around whether a person is allo or not, or is perceived by others to be allo or not. It doesn't matter what we call them- this group exists, and the dynamic of power is there. When queer allos whine about being "lumped in with their [straight, cis] oppressors", the argument makes no more sense than if a cis queer person were to whine about being "lumped in with their [straight] oppressors". All axes of power intersect, that's nothing new. You can be queer and allo at the same time, you will still suffer just as much from queerphobia, and it was never implied otherwise.

"Culturally Christian" is not naming a unique power dynamic; it's naming Christian hegemony, which is predominantly centered around Christian status, specifically. People are not privileged for being "culturally Christian" in this framework; they're privileged for being Christian. The implication that anyone who conforms to Christian culture is privileged for that conformity ignores the lived experiences of, in particular, ex-Christians and atheists/agnostics who are often labeled "culturally Christian" by these people, but who are adamantly- and sometimes very violently- rejected by Christians and Christian hegemony.

What might work as a more realistic comparison to what is actually going on is the way exclusionists in the same discourse were calling aces/aros "basically straight", insisting that because visibly queer relationships or presentations weren't "inherent" to their orientation, they could be assumed "default" and included in straight/cis privilege.

Obviously, arguments have been made against this; aces and aros are targeted by their own arms of queerphobia (acephobia, arophobia, aphobia), many of them are queer in multiple and intersecting ways outside of aro and ace identities, aro and ace identities create their own relationships to queerness that are just as valid and real as any other, etc. They aren't included in straightness or cisness, they are not granted the associated privileges, and "basically straight" isn't just inaccurate- it actively erases those lived experiences.

[thoughts-and-gayers]

ive been thinking about civil rights recently, specifically trans rights, as thats a marginalized group im a part of thats actively being hurt. i see people talking about the awful things done to trans people, the hate speech, the bills signed into law that make it dangerous for us to even exist. its terrifying to me, to think that im going to be leaving high school and entering a world that actively wants to kill me.

i just watched jessie gender's multi-hour video on jk rowling, and it articulated so many of my thoughts about transness in our. current society that i had no idea how to say. one thing she emphasized was how talking about these specific people, these little one-off incidents, is counterproductive. obviously things like hogwarts legacy and "what is a woman" matter, but should we really be talking about them as much as we are when anti-trans bills are passed faster than we can keep track of?

the way our society is right now, short and snappy thoughts about those tiny 24 hour stories are the only thing that gets attention. when you talk about trans rights, youre saying "dont support harry potter", youre not saying "stop the us government from actively hurting trans people".

but people dont listen when you talk about the big stuff. talking about the latest drama is much more entertaining than talking about the actual horrors that people are facing. we're at a point where we can call pointing and laughing at bigots a form of activism.

its so much easier not to learn about the deeper issues. for non-marginalized folk especially, supporting the marginalized celebrity is a lot easier than addressing systematic issues. but we dont get that privilege. we have to go to bat for the big shit, with or without allies. we dont get the luxury, the privilege, of not taking the time to understand and address bigotry and its sources.

im so tired. its exhausting even just learning about everything thats happening. and im not out of high school yet, so theres not a lot i can actually do out there. im trying to learn everything i can about everything thats happening, and its just so exhausting, all the time. on top of that, i also spend my energy on educating other people, trying to get them to understand what's taken me hours of work to get to myself.

and as a white person, i cant even imagine how much harder it must be for POC, especially when they exist at intersections of queerness, womanhood, disability, and/or more. im trying my best to learn about specific struggles that don't necessarily apply to me, but theres so much that a lot of the time i dont even know where to start.

cis, straight, male, white, abled, allo; people who fall under these dont have an obligation to learn about any marginalized group theyre not a part of, especially if theyre not a part of any of them. but they can still go online and say "fuck celebrity x" and get lauded as the pinnacle of allyship. they can make short, snappy, performative displays of their helpfulness without putting in any of the work to actually help. they have the privilege to do so. i as a white person have the privilege to do so, even if i try not to.

im so scared to go out into the world after i graduate and face all these inequalities, to try and deal with the horrors that high school and the internet have only been a small taste of. the most i can do is learn as much as i can before then, but i lose the motivation to every day when theres so little i can do to help; when the people who can help choose to do nothing anyway.

and this post, the closest thing my hungover ass can get to an in-depth analysis, likely wont get any attention at all. its not short, its not snappy, its not entertaining. its just a teenage nonbinary lesbian ranting about existential dread for way longer than he probably should have. and no, this isnt me begging for a reblog otherwise youre a bad person. saying stuff like that doesnt help anyway, since people would just snuff it out of spite instead of looking at the overall message. its just the way things are, not just here but everywhere.

im just so scared, and tired, and sad, and angry, all the fucking time.

[cherrytea556]

It isn't? Like that kind of thing is what the medical system believes which plenty of trans people critiqued. Most trans people are like; 'if you find *insert label here to be for you, then go for it'. And their advocates for gender nonconformity as well even if your cis so...

Maybe the girls who were makeup feel attacked because you radfems make it seem like their doing it for men's attention, like men themselves don't think that same notion about them (along with what they wear). If you guys are saying that girls with makeup aren't attacked then why do you proceed to attack them for it? Like you may not be attacking them specifically but other radfems definitely have.

If gender abolition is what you guys say it is, that sex isnt connected to gender then why tf do you have a problem with trans men and non binary people? Why would it matter if they change their gender from what their assigned at birth to you, would man and woman just no longer exist but male or female? And what about intersex people or are you for baby circumsince? Also connectiveness to gender is a thing as someone whose cis. I don't think about my gender assigned at birth though if someone calls me a boy, it would feel odd to me. That would be the same with trans/non binary people where others referring to them by their assigned gender may feel odd to them and being referred to the opposite gender or none at all feels much more like them. It's simple stuff to understand really.

The reason why lgb is seen as 'weird' is because you guys view other queer people (TQIA+) as the weirdos who don't fit into society/your neat box of humans so you think their invalid and therefore, shouldn't be the community because their not 'same sex attracted' specifically (which makes it odd for bisexual to be in this list because im pretty dang sure they were discriminated against for the exact same reason as why you steer away from the 'tqia'). Its frankly hypocritical of you to say that sexualities shouldnt be deemed as 'gender nonconforming' then say that trans/non binary people 'link into sexist stereotypes' since gender isnt really a choice either (no one chooses to be discomforted with their gender assigned at birth just like how people didn't choose intrusive thoughts, it's just what the body/mind does to you).

You realise that people still arent normal about gay people right? That despite what you guys are suppose to advocate, people still don't view you as normal right? Now imagine how the others feel, feeling left out by both out and inside their own community just because their not 'normal' for them despite the whole point of the lgbt is to support those who don't fit society's norms (straight cis allos). The lgb is mostly of right leaning people and sure enough, right leaning people hate you guys too and will shun you like the others you deem 'weird' and not 'apart of your community'. Genuinely, what are you actually accomplishing here? If they don't consider us normal, what makes you think their gonna see lgb as normal? They aren't. That's just the reality of it. Let people live their life as they want to if it doesn't harm anyone, that should be what were all advocating for. Not just pick and choose which ones we like and which ones aren't. Me and other people in the lgbtqia+ are still apart of the community, whether you like it or not.

I'm done, hopefully you'll at least block me and not continue the convo further. Bye.

Daily reminder that misandry it is just the first steps to becoming a terf. Just saying!

[heterophobiclesbean]

do you think that the aro/ace community is just... misinformed about the term cishet? because i saw someone say that cis means heterosexual and het is heteroromantic and so aro & ace ppl cant be cishet... obviously theyre probably just being ignorant and want to ignore privilage if theyre cishet, but idk just a thought lol

I mean I would say generally speaking the ace/aro community (particularly here on tumblr) is misinformed on virtually all LGBT-related things, because most of their views on LGBT things boil down to "but I'm a freaky weirdo just like you so I get to be queer also!" which is a disgusting misinterpretation of the LGBT community.I think a lot of it has to do with the vilification of the LGBT community, because when we correct them and say "actually cishet means cis straight person" they pull the "monoalloqueers redefining history as always to exclude us poor aceys, further proof of allo privilege" but like in a way that sounds Woke, and then everybody just ignores us because we are Problematique or something. Idk that's my theory that really has no basis besides my casual observation.I think they are misinformed and uneducated, though, which isnt necessarily their fault. Problems start to arise when they dont listen to us about our own history, however.

[alias-mike]

hello everyone. it is no longer morning bc ive been busy but i am back with quotes. please note that this isnt rlly a Proper analysis and theres a lot more to be said abt the religious themes in this song, i just want to focus on the parts that jump out at me rn

"Conceived inside the womb of a glass cage / Inherited my mother’s rage / I want a taste of the world / But it says guard your heart / Lest you fall into temptation / Fall to infatuation / We’ll make a saint out of this sinner yet"

lowkey relatable! i think its interesting how "but it says guard your heart" ties the first half to the second half - like this is a person with passion who must restrain it so they don't fall to temptation/infatuation, but it can also be read that guarding their heart is something they've learned from the glass cage (and, i guess i don't have Solid Proof for this but the vibes make me think theres trauma there). furthermore, "we’ll make a saint out of this sinner yet" very much reminds me of conversion therapy especially when combined the line about heart guarding - like the character feels that they can't feel love because its a sin/they're a sinner who needs to be fixed. i feel like thats something a lot of religious queer ppl have experienced

"“Freedom is a length of rope” / So start learning how to choke / Liberty is taken on a bed of corpses / For every heart you sway, there is a price to pay / Comeuppance will wait for the day / You turn in all that you owe / Untouchable by harm / Yet slain by what we’re empty of / Oh, what annihilates more than love?"

ok lets break this down. "freedom is a length of rope so start learning how to choke" invokes such cool imagery for one, but also reminds me of how heteronormativity. you're "free" to choose whoever you want, but it must be in a straight and cis way. "learning how to choke" brings us back to "guard your heart" tbh, its saying you must fit yourself in this world, live within the rules even if they're hurting you. "for every heart to sway there is a price to pay / comeuppance will wait for the day / you turn in all that you owe" -> every relationship is a danger, even if its fine now there will eventually be consequences (such as being exposed for being gay in a homophobic society). not sure what to make of "untouchable by harm" but "yet slain by what we're empty of / oh what annihilates more than love" -> its like a lose lose situation; if they can have love, they will be persecuted. if they don't, it will kill them inside. (tbf this interpretation is a bit allo centric but shhdhdhshs)

"But though I guard my heart / I still fall into temptation / Fall to infatuation / Is there a saint made of this sinner yet?"

i love it when songs takes a previous verse and changes it a bit. this passage further emphasizes the queerness ngl, no matter how much they try to change or "fix" you, no matter how you try to hide or ignore it, you cannot deny a true part of you.

"IF WHAT’S SACRED / IS COVETED / ISN’T WANT, THEN, SIN? / IF DIVINITY IS WORSHIPED / WHAT DOES THAT MAKE YOU, THEN? / IF I PUT YOUR NAME ON MY TONGUE / WILL WE BOTH BE DAMNED?"

the first bit, "if whats sacred is coveted isnt want, then, sin", could be pointing out a hypocrisy. the second part, "if divinity is worshipped what does that make you, then" could be. ok so you know how in fics sometimes they describe love like worship? this brings up another contradiction - if the character loves (worships) someone, doesn't that mean the loved one is divine despite the "sinful" nature of their relationship? and, finally, "if i put your name on my tongue will we both be damned?". uhhhfhrh its been 12 hours and im tired from work but like. its gay. you get it right

everyone go listen to more than love by nine aetharia on youtube i need to know if it actually has queer subtext or if im just making things up again

[ungracefulace]

Even using the SAM ace and aro still mean attraction to no genders. The only thing the split attraction model means is that while you dont feel any romantic/sexual attraction, you do experience sexual/romantic attraction. I'm gay and ace and my being gay does not take away from my inability to experience sexual attraction.

Grey aces and aros do not experience sexual/romantic attraction enough that they consider it a part of their identity. Thats not the same as having "less then average attraction". Theres a big difference between not feeling any attraction for months/years at a time or only being able to feel attraction after a deep personal bond is formed and just having a dry spell or whatever. The gender is still no one, thats literally the while thing. If you spent time trying to actually talk to aspecs to understand their orientations instead of deciding they dont actually count because you dont get them, this wouldnt be such a difficult concept to grasp.

Polyamoury is a style of relationship. It has nothing to do with orientation, it has to do with how many partners you want to have.

They are queer orientations because they arent straight orientations? Asexuality and aromanticism are marginalized orientations, not blank spots to be ignored for a non ace/aro modifier. If a person is cis and het and they are ace/aro, they do not experience attraction and are not treated the same as a cis straight allo by the rest of society (unless people do not know about it, and as we all should know, erasure isnt privilege). The things that otherwise LGBT+ aces and aros face for being ace/aro still apply to straight aces and aros.

Kinksters arent treated poorly because of their orientation, its because of what they are into sexually, which is different. Same with objectumsexuals. These arent at all related to or the inverse of asexuality, because asexuality is not about how you have sex.

For that matter, there is no argument that you can make about why aces and aros, particularly grey-aces and grey-aros, are inherently LGBT that can’t be applied to people who experience more sexual and romantic attraction than is considered average (even though... average and normal levels have never been truly defined). Much of this same logic could also be applied to advocate for the inclusion of polyamorous people and kinksters and objectumsexuals.

[ungracefulace]

You literally say "instead of spamming a tag you could listen to actually LGBT people". The only people spamming the tag ARE LGBT people. You're erasing peoples LGBT+ identities because they're saying dragons are ace.

And honestly im not sure how you can to the conclusion that aces/aros wanting to be accepted is the opposite of loving the same gender. People knowing that it's okay to not have romantic or sexual feelings doesnt make peope who do have them wrong?? No one is going "Theres only one way to be queer and its BEING AROACE. NOTHING ELSE." A lot of aces and aros are oriented or use the SAM. even aces/aros who dont use the SAM can still have relationships. And hell, allo LGBT+ people should also be taught that theres nothing wrong with lacking romantic/sexual attraction. Acting like the community has to be about relationships is in part what makes younger LGBT/queer kids get in unhealthy relationships with older or abusive people, because relationships and sex tends to be at the forefront of a lot of the jokes and media around the community.

The only safe spaces cishet aces are going to be in are spaces that apply to them. They're going to be in ace spaces, or general spaces that apply to them (like qpoc spaces if they arent white, survivor spaces if they were assaulted because of their sexuality, etc.) Cishet aces arent going to be in trans safe spaces just like cis gay people arent in trans spaces. If you arent ace, the only safe spaces you're going to be in with aces are with aces who are bi or who are nb/trans.

If you're in a safe space talking about violence perpetrated against you in the name of transphobia/homophobia... did it ever occur to you that the aces there "comparing their experiences" have also faces violence because of their asexuality? That theres an actual reason for them being there past trying to evade on your space?

No part of the LGBT+ community is the same. Lesbians and gay men dont share the same experiences. The entire community is an allyship between people who arent cis/straight, born out of necessity. Aces and aros, even cishet ones, are still ace and aro. The only way they are going to be treated as any other cishet is by hiding their ace/aroness. And no, asexuality and aromanticism arent things that you should keep hidden and only tell your S/O. It's an orientation and shouldnt be shamed.

Lots of things for LGBT+ people explicitly include allies to make it more palatable for cishets. That's why a for allies actually originally started. LGBT+ people are just resourceful and some used the guise of allyship for why they were going to LGBT+ events. That doesnt make them not for LGBT+ people. And why would ace people who are explicitly being included in the peer mentoring and homeless shelters should they need it stop using said resources?? What, do you want aces being mentored and supported to lose these already existing resources because you dont think they count? Do you want LGBT+ shelters to kick out homeless aces who theyve already accepted?

And PLEASE show me the inclusionists who are making trans spaces not about trans people?? Because I would LOVE to see that.

And no, yall are mean to be a dick. I can promise you that you arent protecting jack shit from any oppressors by harassing LGBT+ people. No one is being protected by you saying dragons fuck to retaliate against aces saying they like dragons better than cake. Cishets do not give a quarter of a fuck about your discourse blogs or how many aces you make fun of on tumblr. Even if inclusionists are blurring the lines between oppressors, which they arent, being an exclusionist isnt helping anyone and is only hurting other LGBT+ people, mocking them for... still not being straight...

did you know that,,,, dragons DO fuck,,, actually,,,,

[ungracefulace]

Always and all people are different. The meaning is not the same. And you were the one who pointed to the blog as your example for how horrible inclusionists were, even though I never said they were perfect. Im not blaming you for how the blog is ran by pointing out how that's a bad source, but it's why I asked for actual instances that at you were referring to. Im not being facetious by answering your post, but you're more than welcome to stop answering. It wouldnt bother me.

No one is saying that cishet aces or aces in general are more important!! People not wanting exclusionists in a space that is ace inclusive isnt putting cishets over LGBT people, its protecting aces from exclusionists. It's the same as trans spaces who dont welcome truscum. They arent "prioritizing cis people" they are protecting trans people who arent policing others. People are allowed to not want people who have shitty ideologies in their safe space.

For instance, Im gay and trans along with being ace, and in gay and trans spaces I should be allowed to talk about all aspects of my identity that have to do with my gender identity and orientation. My gay ace experiences are different than experiences of gays who are allo, and sharing that not only help the individual (in this example me) but also any other people who might not know what asexuality is or that they can be gay and ace fully flesh out their identity. These are conversations that should happen and exclusionists shutting these down because it's making a ~real LGBT~ space about asexuality is something that should be stopped. If you arent actively excluding aces then you should be fine, if you are assuming that any ace inclusion is allowing cishets tmi shit all over you because the aces might be cishet then that's an attitude that shouldnt be prevalent in LGBT+/queer groups, and that's got nothing to do with prioritizing cishets.

Im sorry people are calling you a queer but i'm not doing that and I acknowledge that queer is a slur? I just also acknowledge that queer is also an identity. There are queer spaces and a queer community. You are more than welcome to not include yourself in it but it's important to acknowledge that it does exist and the historical reclamation of queer in a lot of POC, gay, lesbian, and trans communities (obviously these arent the only people who use/reclaim queer and everyone in these groups dont but there were movements within these groups to reclaim and take back queer).

I never once said inclusionists have never done anything wrong. I acknowledge wrongdoings that inclusionists do and whenever I see it I call them out. Theres plenty of inclus that I hate and refuse to deal with, and it's why I have a relatively small ~discourse friends~ circle. The only thing I did was say that I havent doen the specific things you pointed out from inclusionists and that I actually have seen and experienced first hand these things from exclusionists. That's it. You're the one getting defensive over me simply pointing out what I've seen and dealt with and asking you for examples because I havent seen what you're talking about. For someone who complains about arguing in bad faith so much, you are constantly doing it! I'm not derailing from core content. Im directly responding to your post, going through a sentence at a time to try to not miss anything. I've directly addressed what your said your main point was twice now.

People on the street arent differentiating aces either! If you say or imply your identity is anything other than straight, homophobes and general LGBTphobes are going to treat you the same. The average cishet isnt going to see someone saying they are asexual and go "well are you a cishet ace? Because if you are then you arent really LGBT, let me take my homophobia elsewhere!" They're either going to see it as made up, a cowardly way of saying gay, or in the case of literal demons as a challenge. And tbh these arent the fruits of YOUR labors. These are the fruits of the labors of people who share your identities, but it's not the same thing. And if we are being historical it didnt even help the people who originally put forth these efforts! Bi people werent recognized as real members of the LGBT+ community until the 80s and trans people werent until the 90s. Also as the community has grown the purposes and goals of the community has changed. That's why Pride morphed into a celebration of diverse gender identities and orientations, and why a lot of resources for LGBT+ kids like scholarships are focused on leadership. Goals change, and including aces doesnt stray from that original goal of fighting against homophobia and transphobia (even though regardless of the fact that trans women were the ones who organized and sparked off pride transphobia wasnt a concern for the larger community until much later because cis white gays prioritized themselves and making the community more palatable to cishets then the struggles trans women faced and continue to face, but that's a whole different thing). It just expands on that.

Aces and aros deal with mistreatment that comes solely from their ace/aro identity by virtue of it not being het. Even het aces, if people know about their asexuality, can and in a lot of times di deal with this because they arent being straight "the right way". Im not going out of my way to include cishets, I'm talking about including asexuals and aromantics on the basis of them being ace/aro. That's just open to any ace/aro, which can include cishet aces/aros if they feel like they want to be connected to the ace community and overall LGBT+/queer community.

tbh one of the reasons i became exclus is bc it became very clear that cishet ace/aro ppl and their bootlickers support of lgbt ppl is very conditional - only if we are “inclusive” enough (words only of course), only if we are nice enough, only if our labels are palatable and lack concrete definitions and anyone can be like us, really; only if we are queer, but not gay; only if we center the most marginalised voices, no, not poc, or disabled people, and especially not lesbians, its actually the people who dont have sexual or romantic attraction who are the most oppressed (even though laws have never been written against them, people have never protested their mere existence) must be put first - to say otherwise is ‘aphobic’ and ‘basically like being a terf (who are significant threats to life and help make laws against trans women with the hard right elements and - but is used to mean anyone that i disagree with)’

if you think cishet ace/aro people are more important than your “”'allo’“” lgbt siblings i honestly dont really know what to say other than i feel bad for you and that you really gotta think a bit more critically like being ace/aro does not exclude you from being lgbt of course,,,,, but not being l / g / b or t in the first place does