#because you happen to enjoy overly feminising characters

[orionsangel86]

I agree with the overly fetished views that fandom seems to have of gay men. As a gay man who’s really short, it’s soooo fuckin weird to have people assume I’m a bottom??? Like, I don’t even know you enough to disclose my sexual life and you’re making? weird? assumptions?? Also, there’s a certain fan artist who shan’t be named who makes a certain shorter character super feminine and it kills me every time

EXACTLY

Urgh I’m sorry fandom makes you feel that way.

I’m gonna put this under a cut as I am about to rant about this topic because it is my biggest gripe within fandom. Don’t read on if you are here for fun happy positive things. Beware fair readers, there be strong potentially offensive opinions and plenty of fandom wank down below...

Fandom is unfortunately filled with CIS het women who like to stereotype and force men into their preconceived internalised misogynistic perceptions that to be short or slender means you are the weak dainty “girl” in the relationship and that’s why whichever character they deem the “girl” is also ALWAYS the “bottom”. It also is the same way fandom tends to muddy the waters between sexual positions top/bottom and BSDM terms dom/sub, where bottoms MUST be submissive as well. Half the time you will see posts talking about character traits which perhaps might indicate a submissive streak, and people will take that to mean that a character is a bottom, when the two do not correlate and it is highly problematic to assume that they do.

It’s so fucking problematic and I don’t think that these (mostly straight cis female) fans realise that by encouraging these harmful stereotypes, they are actually also being totally misogynistic and anti feminist. Women are not all bloody Anastasia Steel’s for christs sake (and don’t get me started on that god awful book/movie series). A women can be tall, broad, muscular, she can be dominant and strong and she can damn well top a man if she wants to.

When it comes to shipping male characters in gay/queer relationships, fandom MUST stop inflicting outdated heterosexual stereotypes on them. It seems like fans find a pairing they like (for instance Dean and Cas) and then immediately have to decide which one of them plays the female role. They then twist and change the characters, their traits, the way they look etc, so that one of them is basically a woman. That character then MUST be the submissive bottom and URGH I HATE IT.

(Making a quick note to say that whilst these particular common stereotypes within fandom are very much a problem, this is not to be confused in any way with fans taking their fave characters and headcanoning them as trans or nb or anything else genderwise which reflects an even more marginalised group and is usually a type of fanwork created by fans who are in fact trans or nb themselves.)

I’m not gonna comment on specific artists, but I tend to block urls of bloggers whose stuff I feel is particularly problematic and I also now have the WONDERFUL post blocker xkit extension OMG it is a GODSEND I highly recommend it. If you keep seeing a post on your dash because everyone is reblogging it even though it is super squicky to you (like for instance an obviously feminised Cas or Dean is squicky for me) you can use the extension to block that particular post so you never have to see it again regardless of how many of your mutuals reblog it. Its amazing!

I know that on this hellsite we like to encourage everyone to be as creative as possible and that everyone is valid and we don’t kinkshame and everything etc etc, and I’m all for that, whatever floats your boat and all that. But there is a line, and the line is when what you are doing becomes offensive to the marginalised groups you are supposedly supporting. Like I really don’t care if you are into tentacle sex or hell, even a furry, but I do care if the only way you can comfortably support a gay ship is to force either of the male characters into a “female” template and give them a “self lubricating asshole”. Like... come on. This is why I hate A/B/O. If you have to force gay men to fit a hetero model, you aren’t supporting gay men, you are fetishising them. You are also probably kinda homophobic.

What I really hate about this stuff is how it always seems to be the problematic stuff like this that blows up and becomes a trend and suddenly everyone is jumping on board and no one is given a second thought to how fucked up it is. WHY IS A/B/O EVEN A THING?!? It started as a J2 beastiality fic like WHY DID IT BECOME SO POPULAR?!

Why is Twist & Shout so bloody popular too? Its not even in character. They aren’t even Dean and Cas! Cas is a pale skinny little TWINK?! WHHHHYYYY? I don’t understand it if you ship Destiel wouldn’t you at least want the characters you are reading about to BE Dean and Cas?!? Don’t get me wrong I love AU fics, but I still want to be able to picture and hear Dean and Cas in the characters being described.

Why was it such a thing in the early seasons to make Cas a girl? (that’s hyperbole obviously but he might as well have been based on some of the early fanfics/fanart I’ve seen and immediately noped out of.) Misha Collins has never looked anything like that! He’s never been feminine looking and just because the dude can pull off a dress doesn’t mean you can force him to suddenly be the cute tiny pale perfect curvy pretty submissive beauty you can’t help but imagine Dean with. If you want that for Dean, ship him with Lisa. Stop forcing Cas into a model that just doesn’t make sense for the character.

This goes for Dean as well of course. The dude may have a thing for pink panties and ballet shoes and taylor swift sure, but can we not feminise him to the point he is unrecognisable as the character please?

I know that a lot of this has routes in YAOI. Something I have generally avoided because quite frankly it disgusts me. I find the whole thing just super uncomfortable and messed up and see it purely as a straight womans fetish. So much of fandom shipping behaviour comes from YAOI and its caused a lot of the toxicity we have seen over the years. I think it has got a lot better in recent years though because the queer community is slowly gaining a monopoly in fandom (imo) and as they (we, I should say, as my bisexual ass has quite clearly had enough of this) become more interested in shipping and fandom culture, we can also start educating those straight fans who might be willing to listen and learn. Maybe one day we can say goodbye to the problematic trends of today, or at least, keep them on the fringes of fandom as more and more people wake up to the fact that they are harmful.

And if that means I never have to look at an image of a short pale “pretty” Cas with womanly hips again, I’ll crack open the prosecco and consider it a win.

[amwritingmeta]

Love your take on everything & it really gives me hope for a destiel endgame. I was wondering if you had noticed Dean getting a bit more 'camp'? I don't subscribe to that kind of stereotype normally but as Jensen, a supposedly straight, (let's keep cockles out of this!) actor's interpretation of bi, it seems as though his mannerisms have been somewhat feminised, maybe? I'm thinking mostly of The Face that Mary points out. (also Max's interest in the grenade launcher interests me!) discuss :-)

Helloooo my dear and lovely Nonny! 

Yes, this reply is long overdue and all I can ask is your forgiveness!! Thank you so much, I’m glad you’re enjoying my take and that it gives you hope! :)

I’ve had to ponder this question for a good long while, tbh, because I kind of know what you mean, but I also feel that Jensen’s mannerisms as Dean have had a few wrist flicks and eye rolls that have always felt overly dramatic because Dean can be high drama, right? I don’t know if I’d necessarily label these things as camp or feminised, though.

I mean, I could watch this gif forever. This moment is so fucking awesome! :P

We could theorise into eternity about what’s true and what’s not true about how Jensen claims to play Dean so straight and so uber-masculine, right? I mean… proof’s in the pudding, puddin’ - and even though the editors can change the meaning of a scene by cutting out parts or changing stuff around, there are too many moments that are clearly directed, if not chosen by Jensen in how to be acted out, that are done so in order to be edited in a certain way. There have been these moments of wrist flicking from the beginning, I’d say, because it’s how Dean moves in certain moods or moments. 

Anyone who disagrees with this, please, do jump in! I encourage you adding your thoughts and interpretation!

Now, I know we could debate where Jensen stands until we’re all blue in the face and we’d still be none the wiser. I know a lot of people who believe he sincerely did not know that Dean is meant to be bisexual and that he played him straight as a doornail for eleven or twelve years until someone said, look, we’re deciding to move forward with the love story so, beware, Dean is in love with Cas and this is happening. And I think this is fair enough! Because Jensen has been so outspoken about how he plays Dean and relates to Dean and Dean is s.t.r.a.i.g.h.t.

Yeah, in there lies the problem for me. In what motivation he’s had to make this statement again and again. I find it hard to believe that an actor would work on any project for over a decade and not take an interest or feel curiosity about how the narrative is built. Actually, I find it improbable. Jensen has spoken about how he used to fill every page of the scripts he’d get with thoughts on Dean’s motivation. Does this mean Jensen knew Dean is meant to be bi? Nope. And I can’t argue for or against, merely say that it doesn’t add up to me - at all - that an actor who is so in tune with his craft and who clearly cares about this character would play him - consistently - for twelve years without really knowing him. 

There is this marked pattern with Dean where he’s attracted to a man and immediately overcompensates by chasing a woman and it’s established in 2x02 with Ash and Jo (if not sooner…). It’s fascinating to watch that episode and notice this pattern because it becomes like a subliminal thing. 

It in no way works as proof that Jensen chose to play Dean attracted to Ash, and running after Jo to narratively compensate for it, like it’s a subtextual scale that weighs too hard on one side and then immediately needs to be righted by overtly stating that Dean prefers women. (which looking at the subtext blatantly just is not the whole truth and never was) But it’s a character trait that is brushed at from the start and then becomes the lynchpin for so many important character moments and, looked at that way, even works as foreshadowing for Castiel and the role he’s going to play in Dean’s character progression. But I shan’t go into deeper details on that now because then we’ll be here until Christmas morning. 

What I’m saying is that this has been a conscious part of Dean’s character from the beginning (to my mind) and my mind fucking boggles at the idea that Jensen - who has dedicated such a huge chunk of his career to playing Dean, a performance that will, most likely, be a career defining one - would not know everything there is to know about Dean. 

Okay, I’m crossing over into complete Jensen-behaviour conjecture and speculation and that’s not really what your question was about. (though they do relate, as your question reflected) :P

As for Max and the grenade launcher (god what a lovely choice of topic you throw my way!!) :) –>

Max is gay. Max is hot. Max likes the look of Baby. Max is invited to view Baby’s goodies. Max notices the grenade launcher. 

(that wasn’t meant to come out as the text for a story book for children) (…or was it) ;)

This has been discussed before so it’s very likely that you’ve read up on it a while back because I am so damn late in replying, buuuuut let me still give you the bare bones of this exchange, yeah? I mean, they’re pretty amazing bones.

The exchange between Max and Dean opens with Max saying that Baby is still “major” and Dean offering him the tour. Which consists of what? Max calling out the grenade launcher. And Dean replying to Max’s question of “is that a grenade launcher” with “yes she is” but then immediately grabbing what they need: witch killing bullets. 

I mean, the actual lead into this exchange is Max telling everyone he successfully got a guy’s phone number, right? Dean making this face:

What’s so amazing is how Dean gets a dose of a guy completely and utterly at ease with his sexuality, and then we’re taken to the trunk of Baby - the prop that Jensen says “is a part of me”, speaking as Dean…….. - and shown the phallic shaped monstrosity of a weapon in serious need of release and Dean, aptly, assigns it a sex and, to his mind, it’s a “she”, it’s a female in need of release, as is Dean’s non-performing side. His feminine side, if you will. His yin to his overcompensating, toxically masculine yang.

The beginning of inner balance being found between these two is given to us by Dean launching that grenade into that cement wall in 12x22. 

And here we have a beautiful setup for exactly what that moment means for Dean Winchester. And that he is so extremely subconsciously aware of it all.

“Yes, she is.”

I mean…. seriously, Dean.

And why is it Max asking to dig his nose into Baby’s junk? Sorry, I mean trunk. (….or do I?) Because Max is a reflection of Dean throughout this entire episode. He is our Dean exposition in many many ways. And he ends up making the wrong choice for the right reasons. And I look forward to when Max and Alicia return and I wonder if Alicia will be restored. Come on, Jack. You know you can right this wrong!! :)

Thank you for asking, Nonny! And happy holidays to you!

xxx