#because Mike and El make each other feel bad when they are in a romantic relationship

[thranduel]

it’s just so frustrating seeing mike and will, two characters that are childhood best friends that clearly understand each other better than anyone else and work together perfectly, be treated like a joke just because they’re two boys.

people rush to defend mike and el and the only reasons they come up with for why they should stay together is because “they’ve been together for 4 seasons and they made out so many times!!” or “because they’re canon!!!!! 🥺”, but those aren’t good reasons at all? they don’t even have what relationships are supposed to have???

where’s the trust, honesty, communication, shared interests and actually being themselves around each other? or are you just gonna keep using the "but they saved each other in s1" or “they’re just kids” excuse even though this relationship is only affecting them (and people around them) mentally? where do you draw the line? can’t you see that their age isn’t an excuse for how bad they work as a couple? THEY JUST DON’T UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER. it was proven in season 4. they can’t even comfort each other or communicate properly. mike couldn’t tell his own girlfriend he loved her until his best friend told him to, because he fell in love with his best friend’s feelings for him that he disguised as el’s.

this is another major thing too - mike became a very disliked character from season 3 onwards, after he "officially" started dating el. most of the general audience, even people that couldn't care less about ships, just got extremely pissed off at mike and said he became an unlikeable character. even the CHARACTERS in the show got pissed at mike and kept saying how annoying he is with el. when you get into a relationship, you're supposed to change for the better, not for the worse, so this says a LOT about their relationship and the immaturity they have when they're together. there's no growth at all. it wasn't just a season 3 issue, it went into season 4. and they're unable to solve anything on their own without someone intervening? will was literally used as a plot device!

if you ask someone to tell you how mike and el are in a healthy relationship, they can’t even tell you, because there’s nothing to say. the excuses they make up to defend them just make no sense. blaming mike’s insecurities, saying this is el’s first relationship and many other things just don’t cut it. they love each other as people, but they simply don’t work as a ROMANTIC couple. the show also confirmed that they’re both insecure in this relationship and they can’t be themselves. this isn’t about their age because they’ve shown more maturity and respect with other characters they’ve been with than in their own relationship.

they rushed into romance when they were 12 years old and knew each other for 6 days, and even now, they don’t feel like equals and barely even know each other. how are they supposed to know each other when they lie most of the time anyways? el lied about her life in california and mike's always lying about things too because they're so insecure and don't feel fully emotionally safe with each other. the only person mike has felt fully comfortable with is will?

like i genuinely don’t understand why the writers are doing this if it’s not going to end with byler.

i don’t understand why they’re constantly teasing and shoving things in our face.

i don’t understand why they’ve shown that mike and will’s relationship has always been different and special since the beginning if it didn’t mean anything.

i don’t understand why they made will love mike since the beginning, before el was even in the picture, just to have him get kidnapped and then return to find out that mike has eyes for el instead and will feels like he’ll never get anything and that he’s a mistake for who he is.

i don’t understand why they’re making it clear that mike and el don’t work as a couple and that mike feels more safe and comfortable with will if they’re going to force mike and el to stay together.

i don’t understand why they’re making a gay child suffer even more when he’s been suffering his entire life and has barely been happy throughout the entire show. at least in season 3 everyone else got to have their little romance storylines and happy moments but will got absolutely nothing. he was excluded and then he had a breakdown after his fight with mike??

what was the point of any of this if byler wasn't going to happen?

[thebylertheory]

"If you think El doesn't need to end the show in a relationship and she can be happy without one, then that goes for Will too" here's why you're wrong.

The reason why it's different for Will, whether you like it or not, IS because of his sexuality. Homophobia and Will's belief that he'll never find romantic love because of him being gay is a core part of his character. Romantic love, or the lack thereof, has been an important part of his story for at least the past two seasons. He already has an abundance of love from his friends and family. He's not lacking on that part. But he wants romantic love. That is what he desires. They have made that clear. And they have gone out of their way to show us that he wants that with MIKE. And they have even taken it a step further and shown us why Mike and Will would be good together. They bring out the best in each other and they make one another feel good about themselves. So, for them to do all of that and then end the show by reaffirming Will's belief that he was right and he's never going to find love because he's gay is a very cruel and pointless ending for his character. He has suffered enough. He should be allowed to end the show with the boy he loves and believing that he's worthy of that type of love. He deserves to have the relationship he's always wanted and thought he would never have.

Romantic love has never been an important part of El's story. Since season 1, she has been trying to find a family/home and she has been trying to find out who she is in a world she was isolated from since birth. That is the most important part of her story and character. Her relationship with Mike has never been the main focus. In fact, she does better and she thrives more and she sees the most development as a person when her and Mike are separated. They have shown us that their relationship holds her back and that they're not good for each other. They don't make each other feel loved or good about themselves. Now, that's not to say I don't think El should EVER be in a relationship. She can! But a romantic relationship, especially one with Mike, is not as important to her story as it is to Will's. In fact, a relationship with Mike has done more bad than good for her. She doesn't NEED romantic love or a relationship with Mike for her happy ending. Her happy ending can consist of her just being able to live comfortably with her family and knowing who she is and feeling confident in her identity. That ending is what will be the most fulfilling for her character.

[miwiheroes]

okay time for my rant

i feel kind of upset that i know that a lot of people will be disappointed with season 5 byler because they have this one view: past byler moments need to be referenced.

assuming that it is endgame (bc yeah ofc it is), i don't think that will be enough for everyone, which i totally get <3 like if they do it in a poorly written way (i.e. no depth into mike's queerness or a cheating plot on el) i would totally get not being happy with it. but i know that some people will think that it's not that good because they may not reference past byler moments??

like some things that i've seen people hope for are understandable. for example, wanting a kiss with heroes in the bg, or wanting a mention of the painting. those make total sense because the writers set those things up in a way that implies it'll be referenced later on.

some things i just don't stand by. for example, wanting them to show ANY reference to them meeting each other for the first time, any reference to the crazy together scene. those are already canon moments. it's almost as if people needing these scenes to be referenced is a kind of insecurity in the existence of those scenes in the first place? like we need to them to be rehashed in order to make them like- double canon in a way?

now, i totally get wanting this to happen. for the reasons i have just expressed and the fact it would be really cool. but what i don't get is: saying that the new season's byler would be poorly written without a reference to a past moment.

i can almost see it now, post byler endgame, people getting mad there was no reference to their first meeting, people getting mad they didn't reference 'lets start a new party'. them saying it was poor writing. me going:

honestly......... i think it would be better written if they didn't reference these. More specifically, if the miwi flashback isn't them meeting each other for the first time, i would be equally as excited, because it means a NEW THING for us to reference, a new thing for me to explore in analysis.

the writers will hopefully give us some new lines. new soundtrack songs. new things to analyse and make memes about. i don't neeeed them to say they're crazy together for the third time*.

so if i catch anyone calling writers who have made an effort to create new, romantic, beautiful scenes that deepen the complexity of byler's relationship bad writing just because they didn't reference old moments, i am going to have an aneurysm <3 and then giggle in heaven, because why ur working urself up over literally nothing, i'll be sat, positive and happy, looking at fresh and new things to obsess over.

if you feel attacked by the post, im sorry, i just want to get you guys excited because no matter what we are getting new byler content, new lines and new complexities. sorry for making u feel bad in the future for criticising writers for taking the hard way out, and writing new lines LMAO

and in the possibility that they do reference these old moments, i'll also be happy, i just hate the idea that some people won't be happy if they don't do it, if that makes sense

*if you're wondering what the second time is, it's when mike gives will that post it note with the line on it.

[boyfriendsmalec]

The Stranger Things ending being "bittersweet" isn't necessarily a bad thing

We already know how attached the Duffers are to their characters. They've refused to kill any of the core cast off, despite calls from fans and even the cast itself to kill off more of the characters. They have even said Hawkins is not like "Game of Thrones." They have a clear attachment to their characters and it's been stated repeatedly that they intend to give fulfilling arcs for their characters, wanting them all to have narratively satisfying conclusions (as Noah has stated when talking about how he's happy with Will's ending).

This doesn't mean, of course, that the ending will be entirely happy.

Now I'm going to delve a bit into spoilers/leaks we got so please look away now if you don't want to see those.

We know from leaks that the core younger cast all survives to graduation, as well as them having scenes at a bar with much of the older cast. I believe one of the only cast members that wasn't at these scenes was Millie (El).

Now I don't think El is going to die. I think that would send a bad message killing off your core female character who's never been able to live a 'normal' life (not to mention all the trauma and suffering she's endured). And I don't think the Duffers have it in them to give El a tragic ending.

I do believe El's ending will be "happy" for her by allowing her to complete her narrative arc of attaining full independence, allowing her to discover who she is and wants to be. I do wish El would stick around with her found family, but I do feel that she may be separated from them in the end. Not necessarily permanently though, and I think it'll be on her own terms. It could be that El believes she has to go revitalize/clean up the Upside Down after Vecna's downfall. Or maybe El is still in our world, but simply living outside of Hawkins, establishing who she is separately from her friends and discover more of the wider world.

Also I want to make clear I'm not saying this is the ending I want for El. This is mere speculation on my part. But the repetition of Finn talking about El is like "E.T." and the hints in the show of El being like a "different species" or "not from this planet" makes me wonder if she will end up going off in the end, forging her own path.

We also know from Millie that she's not entirely happy about El's ending. She's even said she's bounced around in her opinions of Season 5 as it was being filmed, and has been very quiet on the topic of Mike and El's relationship since Season 5 has been filmed.

I am admittedly a bit worried about El's ending, but I'm hoping the execution of it will be done well.

Meanwhile Noah has expressed a great happiness for Will's ending and Finn has overall said he's happy while there's some "sadness" too. And I think it would be reasonable for Mike's character to be sad for El to leave, even if they're friends. He still cares a great deal for her. If you go by the bisexual Mike interpretation then she would've been his "first love" and even if you interpret Mike as gay, she would still be someone he cares for very deeply. And I think it would be nice to see more of a platonic male/female dynamic on-screen and how his care for her doesn't just vanish because they don't feel romantic towards each other. Like just think of Robin and Steve here, wouldn't either one of them be devastated at losing the other?

But I don't think it's El possibly leaving that could be the only reason the cast keeps talking about the ending being "bittersweet."

In the epilogue I believe we'll see the characters come together again, before all of them start to separate for their new journeys ahead. They will likely split up to go to college in different areas of the country. I think that the endgame couples will stick together (e.g. Mike and Will go to a college together in an East Coast city, Lucas and Max go to college together in California, Dustin goes off with Suzie or by himself to a separate university). Perhaps some friends will stick together (e.g. Steve and Robin) but I believe a lot of the group will be fragmented and split apart in the end, simply due to life circumstances.

This is a typical ending we see at the end of fantasy/adventure movies. After the characters defeat the "Big Bad" they often go their separate ways, stronger for the friendships they've forged, happier and richer for the experiences they've had together.

And I think this may be the "bittersweet" aspects the cast talks about. Because while there is a happiness to it, it stings a bit knowing this is the end of the show and the characters will never be together in the same way they once were.

I mean it's possible at the ending, maybe even Joyce and Hopper and the rest will permanently decide to leave Hawkins. Who knows? I could see all of them permanently leaving Hawkins as being incredibly bittersweet.

There's so many other reasons the cast could be referencing the ending as "bittersweet." But I don't think it'll be about the deaths of any major characters (though I'm sure side characters will die, and I also think Murray may be one of the more "major" members of the cast to die). I think it's very likely someone in the Wheeler family will die (Karen or Ted or Holly) which could also lead to Finn saying there's "sadness" in his character's arc. We know Mike is quite close to Karen and we'll see more of his relationship with his sister Holly, so if he loses either of them that will feel incredibly tragic.

But ultimately the Duffers care too much about their main characters to kill them off, and I believe they will give them satisfying conclusions, even if the main cast of characters aren't all together in the end.

[thewisewill80sbyers]

I didn't know bylers shippers existed hehe, what makes you think Mike likes Will? Im really curious

Ohhhh, thank you for giving me the opportunity to repost this, I wrote it for the old blog, but it's a neat summary, so I'll reuse it lmao

these are more or less the main reasons:

I personally think there are some scenes in the show and there are some choices that the writers made that are telling us that the plot of the show is going towards Will getting a "pay off", in terms of writing, at the end of the show and Mike and El finding out they are better as friends instead and Mike discovering he has romantic feelings for Will

The writers have emphasized Will's sadness in relation to Mike and El as a couple both thematically and visually, in the writing & filming of the show there are too many scenes like this especially in season 3 and 4 they have made it clear that he will never be happy if Mike and El are the endgame relationship, even during Mike's love monologue after he supposedly decided that he was ok with El having his own feelings for Mike by saying that the painting was a thoughtful gift from El when it wasn't... They put a shot of Will's sad face in the middle of the monologue, and also he was framed behind Mike when he said "I love you" which in film is a EXTREMELY weird choice unless it means something more is going on that should make us not want El and Mike's relationship to work - the writers have been sabotaging the emotional connection of the fans with mileven by doing this and I don't think that professional filmmakers don't know that, I think it's on purpose!

The writers have shown Mike and Will as having a deeper relationship than all the other relationships Mike has, putting him in the same category of El as one of his possible love interests in the plot, they have multiple scenes bonding in a tender way than Mike has with any other of his friends, they happen in private usually or in emotionally charged moments that they film to make you as a viewer feel like they are in private and show how they have this connection that's more than just friendship

The writers have wrote in the show since season 1 MANY parallels between Mike and Will and other official couples (Mileven too!!!) that are, in my opinion, hinting at them ending up together at the end of the show

You can find most of the parallels here! (I have to finish re-uploading them all here, ugh)

The writers have continously shown El and Mike to have some kind of problem in their relationship and made El decide to leave Mike behind multiple times even if to save his life because she loves him, the writers have been showing us how Mike is not her PLOT priority and instead they have put having a romantic relationship with Mike as Will's deepest desire since season 3

The writers are building up El's character to have a coming of age that has recurrent themes of her finding herself without the influence of others around her, her becoming completely free from any kind of influence, and Mike has been represented as having too many internal fears to overcome at the moment about their relationship, especially with the love monologue at the end of season 4, he has beliefs about himself as a person that clash with El's character arc about not having to feel influenced in any way, the end of the show for El should be her having complete freedom in all aspects of her life because of the circumstances of her upbringing... Not saying that Mike is influencing her in a bad way necessarily, I think they both love each other a lot but having a relationship with someone that is that much insecure about his role in your life because you have powers will always be a type of influence

The writers have shown Mike and El as not being a team at the same level by separating them constantly after s1, instead they have shown the other couples that work as working together in the supernatural plot (Jancy, Jopper, Lumax, Byler)

The writers have paralleled Mike and El's relationship to all the ships that are not working for some reasons/are not endgame and have more infatuation than a real "true love" kind of relationship (Steve x Nancy, Karen X Ted, Bob x Joyce)

The writers have wrote in multiple scenes of Mike acting awkward with Will (Mike!!! Not Will) or them having coded conversations about how much they care for each other that have no sense to exist unless there is a pay off at the end

The writers have presented El, Mike and Will as being in a love triangle and have been framing them in a love triangle composition in the framing of multiple scenes, with Mike at the centre

When during season 4 the writers talked about all the movies that have inspired season 4 and 5 they have put multiple movies with love triangles that are almost identical to the situation between Mike, El and Will

Will and Mike have multiple fight scenes that are scenes you give to two possible love interests usually, the way the fight happen is written as two lovers having emotional fights instead of as how you would write two friends fighting

The writers wrote in the show a precise parallel in all the scenes of Vickie and Robin... between them and Will and Mike, paralleling Mike to Vickie specifically... who is a canon bisexual character and even paralleling Steve and Jonathan in that context as observers of the couples!

The directors filmed their scenes how you would film romantic scenes in stuff like Bridgerton or a romcom lol

The whole painting scene was Will making Mike feel so loved that he felt comfortable being vulnerable with El, but this means he was still not comfortable on his own relationship with her, he didn't feel safe enough to open up on his own and needed that talk and needed to believe all of those ideas about him being the heart came from Eleven so that he made the jump and told her how he felt instead of being selfishly silent on it because he was too afraid of her possibly leaving him one day... When you are really deeply in love with someone in the context of movies the characters don't let those type of fears influence them and if what gives him courage is the feelings of another character in the love triangle it means he's the right person for the character

( idk if you saw gossip girl, but there was a love triangle situation between Blair, Dan and another character where Dan made Blair believe the other character felt some type of way towards her, she understood that she loved Dan because of this act because she wanted those words to be from him and not from the other guy… The whole painting lie is that same trope)

The writers are obsessed with IT from Stephen King and there are clear parallels with it in the show, the whole plot of s4 about the painting is a reprise of the plot between the romantic relationship of Bev and Ben in IT (with the postcard and the poem) Beverly is supposed to be Mike, Ben is Will and Bill is El.... Mike and El share a kiss at the end of season 3 that is supposed to parallel a kiss between Bill and Bev (they did love each other and liked each other but are not endgame)

Both Will and Mike are queercoded multiple times during the seasons, rainbows around them, queer coded lines of dialogue, being framed inside closets etc etc

There are WAYYYY more reasons, but this post is becoming too long so I'll leave it as this lol

You should rewatch the show and imagine if Will was a girl, I think many people would be seeing what I'm talking about way more and take it as a sign that Mike is going to choose "Willow" and see how Will is the better love interest for him…

Maybe it's all just queerbaiting, who knows, but at the moment I believe this is way too much for it to be queerbait!

I personally think Mike is bisexual -> the power point I made about it

and has feelings for both of them, but his feelings for El have always been a "puppy love" type that is growing to become more platonic than romantic with time, and I think he's a better match with Will, I think Will is able to make him be the best person he can be, he's capable of making Mike feel worthy in a very natural way unlike the relationship with El does at the moment!

Thank you if you read all of this, regardless of what I believe, I think everybody should be free to ship what ship they like best!! 😊

[kissboybyler]

just saw a byler post saying “if byler isn’t endgame, then why make the van scene the gayest shit i’ve ever seen” and one milkvan had commented “it’s literally been proven that it’s not gonna happen chill out” and another said “it’d be so fucked up if byler is endgame because mike is literally in love with el and el and will are basically siblings”.

BRO WHAT THE FUCK?!!? First of all, how has it been proven that it’s not gonna happen? Literally nothing is set in stone until s5 comes out. We don’t know shit, we can make theories and come to logical conclusions based on past material, but for better or for worse, it’s not up to us to determine the outcome of the show. And based on the given evidence, byler makes the most sense from a narrative standpoint.

Also what the fuck is the whole “mike is literally in love with el”? Why is this the only argument they have? Everytime i see a *toxic* milkvan defending their ship it’s almost always along the lines of “they are in love” BITCH, based on what exactly? Because they are a boy and a girl and they’ve kissed? They love each other, yeah, but this is not the kind of love used as a foundation for a romantic relationship meant to last. They are not the loves of each others’ lives, because first off, el has barely even had time to get to know herself and understand the mechanics of the world around her, let alone be able to determine what true love looks and feels like. It breaks my heart that people want mike and el together, especially when they claim to love el, because my girl was literally like “but you don’t love me anymore?” “who said that i didn’t” “you never say it” “i say it” “you can’t even write it mike”. She’s not fucking stupid, she can tell something’s off. And mike is literally gaslighting her.

What part of their relationship points to them being truly, irrevocably, selflessly in love? Im genuinely wondering. How can this be true love, when they can’t be themselves around each other, they can’t grow as individuals, they can’t exist outside of their relationship and surround themselves with other people, when el feels unloved, when mike has to change who he is for el’s shake, when they don’t have anything in common, when mike feels inadequate next to el, when el wants to be seen as a person and not just a superhero and mike continues to idolise her? When they can’t communicate with each other without everything leading to miscommunication? What exactly about this is romantic? Mike waiting for el in s2? The season where mike was by will’s side 24/7? What, the snow-ball scene? The weird making out scenes in s3? The “blank makes you crazy”? Because If we’re talking about the ball scene, there’s also something to be said about byler. If we’re talking about the making out, that’s literally the only thing they did and they were 13 and didn’t have anything else in common. And seriously? “Blank makes you crazy”? I don’t think i have to further my point here.

Anyway- um. I really don’t want to come off as rude but this ship is bad for all parties involved. Milkvan endgame doesn’t make any sense, the trope has been overdone before, it wouldn’t add something original to the story, and it would further prove that mike just woke up one day and decided to be an asshole. Oh and also the writers hate Will. Oh and also El had to compromise and stay in a relationship she called quits on twice and made her feel unloved and unseen.

Oh and also-

[star-41306]

Maybe unpopular opinion but I DONT want Mike or Will to say they love each other, because every time a romantic couple does that, it's when they're having PROBLEMS.

S2 stancy. They say they love each other after a small argument, then Nancy says "I do!!" After Murry confronts her about not loving him, as a DEFENSE.

S3 Mileven. Mike only says he loves El (while she's not in the room, might I add) after they break up, and everyone has been arguing about Mike not caring about what El actually wants. He says it to DEFEND his actions.

"I love you!"(x7) Mike only says it DAYS AFTER El expresses that's something she wants. He doesn't get to say it via his on volition either. He is pushed by Will and pushed by the fact that El is literally dying. It is to DEFEND El against Vecna and his own actions

"That's why I love him" Even when Johnathan and Nancy say they love each other to their friends in S4, they are growing distant. They only say it to DEFEND their relationship. It is not an actual representation of how they care for one another.

In Stranger Things, actions always speak louder than words.

"Only love makes you that crazy" Johnathan protecting Nancy's reputation and keeping Wills name out of Steve's mouth. Neither of them say the words "I love you" to one another

"Wine makes me crazy" Bob trying to integrate into the Byers family, and help Joyce feel more comfortable by leaving a place with so many bad memories

"Crazy together" Comforting each other through a shared understanding of their individual trauma

And other examples of showing not telling

"Just talk to me. I'm here" Lucas begging Max to lean on him, showing her she doesn't have to go through her pain alone

"I feel like I lost you or something" Mike reconciling with Will, showing he's sorry and explaining why he acted the way he did

"I did lose you" Joyce after traveling and fighting to find Hopper even when there's a chance it's all a lie

Stranger Things does not say "I love you". It will always show it.

[milevenstancyendgame]

Reasons why Mileven drama/breakup and Byler endgame in ST5 are unlikely

Looking at the whole show, we can see two constants regarding these relationships:

-Mike and El keep overcoming external and internal obstacles, and always end up together again

-Will's homosexuality is hinted at from the start, as well as his deep feelings for Mike.

Regarding the latter, this creates the expectation to have Will accept his own feelings and then his friends do the same.

In S4, it's clear that we got the first. Will's monologue didn't achieve the coming out, but he did express his love for Mike, albeit disguising it as El's feelings. He basically sacrificed himself in order to support Mike, who in turn was able to support El, who then managed to (barely) save Max.

Based on that, I think we have two possible scenarios for S5:

-Will won't confess his love to Mike openly. He has accepted that Mike and El love each other, and we see him having moved on from this right from the beginning of the season. His coming out as gay will still happen though, and Mike's acceptance of that will be crucial for Will.

-Will will confess to Mike that he's in love with him - I'm thinking of the close-up of his face during Mike's monologue in S4, when he says "And somehow I thought telling you how I felt would make that day hurt more." Will clearly feels the same way, but maybe hearing Mike confess this to El gives him the courage to confess it to Mike as well.

No matter which scenario we'll get, I think the focus will be on Mike's acceptance of Will's homosexuality, on him being different, but Mike making him feel better for it. It's possible that Mike might mess it up, not knowing what to say, but no doubt he will be accepting of Will's sexuality, and I think this will give power to Will to be freely himself (and maybe kick some butt).

However, from a storytelling perspective, I really don't see Mike suddenly realising he loves Will and not El. It would be extremely bad writing, because they have been telling us that Mike and El love each other since they first met in S1.

If they had not planned for them to be endgame, they would have sunken the ship already. There were plenty of opportunities. But what we got instead were relationship issues and them being able to work through these issues.

Mike not being very articulate at telling El how he feels about her has also been a constant since S1. However, this finally got resolved at the end of S4.

That's why I think that ST5 will start of with a strenghtened bond between them and their love won't be tested any more.

Mike finally told her how much he loves her, El has no more reason to doubt him. Mike doing a 180 degree turn and realising he lied to El would be equal to creating a new character for Mike. It also would spit on everything they took the pain to show us of Mike and El's love during the whole show.

From a storytelling perspective, this would be total self-sabotage. Why waste a whole series to tell viewers that two characters are in love and then saying "Surprise! It was a lie all along!"? What would be achieved by that?

If it had been their goal to show us that romantic feelings can change, then they would have had to tell a completely different story and would have sowed the seeds for doubt from the very beginning. Instead we got nothing but soulmatism for Mike and Eleven (including their relationship issues, because they overcame those).

Also, remember that this story is about defeating the big evil with love. El is the super-hero. Destroying her biggest source of power (love) would make it impossible for her to win against anyone.

Apart from all this, considering everything that needs to be wrapped up in S5, there simply is not enough time to have Will confess to Mike, Mike figuring out his new feelings, getting up the courage to tell El, the drama of breaking up the main ship of the show, have El get over it, establish Mike and Will as a couple, get all their friends' support, AND defeat Henry.

This is why they resolved Mike and El's conflict in S4. Because there won't even be time for their established relationship to have any drama. This is why they already showed us that Will accepts and supports Mike and El's love, so the love triangle situation has been resolved as well.

The only thing left to resolve is Will's coming out to his friends, which doesn't need to take up a lot of time. It could be one or two scenes.

[craziertogether]

thinking about mike & will

first off happy valentine’s day! now onto another yap session. i sometimes find myself wondering why i’m so obsessed with byler. it might be because i have a tendency to like tragic queer couples (aot, orv, & bbm) or maybe bc i love the yearner trope. but honestly the thing that gets me about byler is probably because growing up with them i struggled with the same things they did (internalized homophobia & hiding my sexuality) it wasn’t until literally so recently that i started to find myself accepting my own queer attraction.

growing up seeing that on TV with these two characters who’s love is beyond any queer relationship on TV. It’s gut wrenching with just the right amount of angst that doesn’t make me wanna choke myself but enough that it’s realistic and raw. they never sexualized or made it seem shameful that queer love exists, and with that they’ve built up a love that grew so beautifully from the very first moment. they showed us that this relationships was incredibly deep, it started that day in kindergarten when mike asked will to be his friend and they’ve been inseparable since. they started as the outcasts and sought each other out and others who might’ve felt as lonely as they did. and yet their bond out ranks theirs with dustin and lucas, why? because it just does, because they found each other, not by “dumb luck or fate” but by choosing the other person to be their friend. choosing them to be in their party. mike choosing to stay/stand by will even when EVERYONE else chose to leave. mike’s love/care for will is so deep that it’s comparable to how his own mother values him, them being the only ones to believe that he was alive with NO evidence and actually having evidence to disprove his life, but mike had even less than joyce. like that is the kind of love that comes after years of marriage/familial bonds, the intuition of how the other is/are feeling.

this love doesn’t fade even though the seasons continue. i think we tend to really feel like mike’s character declined because he abandoned his friends as a means to hide his sexuality, but how is that he somehow still is most in tune with will even through all that. of course he’s already made the mistake and it’s too late to undo what has been done, but that doesn’t stop him from trying. by trying save his relationship with will in season 3/4, it’s almost like he’s trying to find a secret exit within the horrible walls he built around himself. he wants nothing more than to hide his secret from everyone and yet he’s so bad at it, not because will or men are his kryptonite or anything like that. but because it’s practically instinctual for him to choose will just like he did when he was a kid. it’s not like he doesn’t care about anyone else, but that love and care he has for those around him will never compare to they love he has for will because he will always choose and love will differently than anyone else. (again see his fights with EL, lucas, dustin, max, nancy, his parents, hopper). it’s shown to us that he becomes an asshole to them all at some point but it’s insane that we never see him actually apologize to any of them on screen the way that we see him do it with will. the amount of screen time and emphasis they put onto their relationship is not something you do for a pair of friends. it’s not, and somehow every moment they share is so much more intimate than even my favorite couples in the show but somehow it’s still going over the GA’s head. their moments are tender and intimate without sexual/romantic intimacy and somehow they outdo all the romance we DO see in screen. (let me say tho that the endgame couples obviously have love that i admire and love so much too) but byler’s is so incredibly unique and special in way that we haven’t seen in another parts of the show. (obviously parallels exist but those parallels aren’t identical).

on top of everything that we know and see, i stated before how this show will change everything, but all of this build up and once it’s finally confirmed and shown to the GA. it will be a happy, real, and raw love story that will be broadcast to millions. who, whether they want to admit it or not, it will show a story that is undeniably beautiful. a queer love story that isn’t cheesy (i love cheesy) or incredibly tragic (also love) but had time to buildup and grow with angst and painful moments but also tender and emotional moments that so many can relate to. seriously i’m having withdrawals, drop the trailer please.

[gayofthefae]

You know what I just realized?

Joyce and Hopper didn't kiss before he died.

They left that a loose thread for when we got back. They left that something missing. They left their love story unfinished. They left us unsatisfied.

Once, again, they know to do it. Mike and El kissed in season 1 so we would be satisfied...so we wouldn't want more. So the separation wasn't as urgent.

Oh, they need to reunite so they can...what? Dance together?

No, Joyce and Hopper need to reunite because they still haven't kissed. Mike and El need to reunite because they...miss each other. There's no romance to that.

Joyce and Hopper had a season focused on romantic buildup where Joyce wasn't ready to admit her feelings for Hopper and was defensive when they were called out to her. But in the end, she initiated. That just exacerbated her grief when she thought he died because of what they could've had and never did. It drove her, this Enzo's date they made. They never even kissed.

Mike and El a season focused on romantic buildup where Mike wasn't ready to admit his feelings for El and was defensive when they were called out to him. But in the end, he initiated. That just exacerbated his grief when he thought she died because they had been romantic.

But it didn't drive him because he wanted what he never had. He just missed what he did get to have with her. They got together. That counts. In a way that season 3 Joyce and Hopper didn't. There was a promise of it but nobody was thinking in season 1 "the Snow Ball is when they REALLY get together, this kiss is just buildup to the Snow Ball". Honestly, when I thought she was gonna live, I figured the Snow Ball would be off screen.

It's that simple. They didn't give us a payoff for Joyce and Hopper. So we stayed invested. But with Mike and El, we were just reaching for the past. That's their whole thing, missing what they had. Because it was never really the same. Joyce was driven towards the future when she found hope because of what she still wanted to achieve with him. Mike dwelled on the past whenever he was reminded of her.

She was idealized in Mike's mind. He had her and lost her. The best version of her romantically is cemented in the past. It doesn't drive him to go after her, it drives him to think about her. But the best version of Hopper to Joyce isn't what was, it's what would have been - which, even when inaccessible, is still the future. So when she had hope, she went after what she never had.

Mike and El had no payoff left. I actually thought they did the first time because that kiss was so bad (Finn's words) I thought it was a cheek kiss. I didn't find out until Beyond Stranger Things that they actually kissed in season 1. Once again, I misremembered or misinterpreted a better version of what it typically would be if they were endgame. But that was my bias.

Mike and El had no payoff left. Joyce and Hopper did. Cut the kiss. Keep the Snow Ball promise. That's all. Have them kiss at the Snow Ball for the first time. Now you've created "the moment they've been waiting for".

What you don't do is make us fine without more. Remember when people thought it was a miniseries that was over? They shouldn't have. That shouldn't have been enough closure.

They haven't been "built up for 4 seasons". They've "gotten together" four times. That's different. What that does is make so every time...we care a little less.

I don't care. Because you made me stop caring. By giving me complete satisfaction on day 1. I got my closure. I moved on to Jonathan and Nancy, Lucas and Max, Joyce and Hopper. They got together and there were other couples who hadn't. I still thought they were cute, but I moved. on.

There was something bigger to care about each season because they gave me closure in season 1.

I cared about them in season 1. In season 2, I cared about Jonathan and Nancy. In season 3, I cared about Steve and Robin. In season 4, I cared about Joyce and Hopper. Always. Something. Bigger.

And speaking of season 4, Lucas and Max also did. not. kiss. It was a promise. Not a payoff.

They gave us "the couple who's already kissed 1-6 times kiss again or the couple who never have?" Obviously the bigger payoff is never have. They could have made it so they never had. Hell, it could have been built up for 4 seasons. I'm proposing two: don't kiss until the Snow Ball. But they could have done 4. She gets back, they don't know where they stand after so long, season 3 is similar awkwardness but the ily is the main plot and happens earlier, she heard him but he doesn't know until the 4x03 fight, he confessed in 4x09. THAT'S 4 seasons of build up.

Making a repeat in the first place also told us that the payoffs didn't really count. If it didn't count the first time that it needed another, why should I care the next? Or the next? Why should I ever believe you when you say "happily ever after"?

I stopped caring. Because they told me it didn't matter enough to stick. And I stopped caring because they already gave me what I wanted. Mike and El GOT TOGETHER.

There should not be a point in the show where I can pause it and deniably say "they lived happily ever after" with no corrections. You could argue in every other case "but they haven't kissed yet" - Lucas and Max, Joyce and Hopper in their separations, even if you pause and say happily ever after when they ask the other out. The payoff hasn't happened yet.

But you could show someone the season 1 kiss and say that was that. And they'd believe you. And they'd go on their. They'd go on their way.

What we got was 4 payoffs so we only really cared the first time. Joyce and Hopper's was delayed until we were actually supposed to care. They know we'll only care once because there's only one first, so they saved it.

They know how to do it. They choose not to. Every. Single. Time.

[sogoodtoheritsvicious]

it’s tiiiiimeee

i haven’t watched this show in full in five years 😵‍💫but it’s october and i was gonna watch thee byeler episode aka 2x02 on halloween anyway so i thought i might as well rewatch the entire show and make it everyone’s problem

forgot about the jumpscare being right at the beginning

baby will <3

they were all BABIES and now they’re all grown and the damn final season still hasn’t premiered lmao

dustin was so adorable

“it was a seven.” “huh?” “the roll, it was a seven. the demogorgon, it got me.” the way will was incapable of lying to mike, GOD, i feel sick

fun fact: will’s adorable little “see you tomorrow!” is immediately what made him my favorite

“kiss your mom ‘night for me!” lmfao

forgot how damn good the jumpscares are

gonna need mike to see will with a gun at least once before this show is over

“damn,you look like hell, chief!” “oh, yeah? well, i looked better than your wife when i left her this morning.” HELP

“lonnie used to call him queer.” “is he?” FUCKING HELL, HOPPER 😭 i completely forgot about that scene lmfao

EL, MY BABY

benny was such a good man :( he didn’t deserve to die

that poor dog was so hated irl 😭

“you think we got a problem here?” my brother in christ, a boy is missing

“i’m the only one that cares about will!” mike loves will so much, i’m gonna cry

i completely forgot about hop’s daughter

mike sneaking out while steve’s sneaking in 😭 this show is also a comedy

winona ryder the actress that you are

chapter 2

maybe i’m going to find out in this ep i can’t remember if they ever investigate benny’s death or link it to everything else that was going on

“stop it, you’re freaking her out!” “she’s freaking ME out!” lucas was the only real one in the beginning

poor baby. el didn’t even know what privacy was before this moment.

“oh, you can speak!” she gets that a lot 😭

mike and el had so much potential as friends, FUCK the duffers for ruining them by making it romantic. now they don’t even seem like they like each other

i hope s5 focuses on more on will and lucas’ friendship

jonathan was such a good brother

brenner. always at the scene of the fucking crime.

mike naming his dino ‘rory’ because he roars 🥹

FUCK BRENNER ALL MY HOMIES HATE BRENNER

karen was such a good mom in the beginning

i hate lonnie with a passion, he’s an abusive piece of shit who should’ve been killed off

i don’t blame lucas at all for the way he was acting with el at first

“one kid goes missing, the other one runs wild? some real fine parenting right there.”

they kept pointing out so many similarities between will and el, i can’t believe they didn’t go anywhere with it

“can’t ask a corpse a question.” die. just die.

nancy: *losing her virginity*

barb: *losing her life*

chapter 3

“no one breaks in here.” yeah, they just break out

love jonathan but steve wasn’t exactly wrong about the pictures

joyce byers the mother that you are

mike wanted nothing to do with el once they found will’s “body” but we’re supposed to believe that he loved her the second he saw her in the woods.

chapter 4

i can’t believe they showed that mike has all of the drawings will has created and expected us to be normal about it

“screw his funeral!” “what?!” TEARS

jonathan loves joyce and will so much 🥺

steve was such an unbearable asshole

can we PLEASE talk about charlie being able to hold his own with winona in that scene about will’s body? we already know winona’s gonna blow it out of the water but he did just as well

completely forgot about mike doing el’s makeup this episode dkfkgjd

“where are you from, exactly?” “bad place.” 😭

that troy scene still sends

“the kid is dead. end of story.”

they put too much pressure on el. i hope when all this shit is over she’s able to just be a normal kid.

this show used to be so fucking good

i love how hop tries lying to the state trooper and when that doesn’t work he just knocks him the fuck out 😭

I FUCKING HATE LONNIE

i’m so glad they had jonathan realize that joyce was telling the truth about everything that was going on instead of just dragging it all out.

chapter 5

hate lonnie for taking advantage of joyce when she’s clearly in a vulnerable position

“wait until we tell will that jennifer hayes was crying at his funeral” lmao

all this season is showing me is how severely they’ve robbed us of joyce and will scenes in future episodes

“man, these aren’t real nilla wafers.” mr. clark must think they’re horrible friends, i’m crying. dustin is right, though, fake nilla wafers suck.

“it might even swallow us whole.” and that’s exactly what’s happening by the end of s4

“he’s wanted to go to nyu since he was six. years. old!” she should’ve killed lonnie right then & there

can’t prove it but jonathan fell in love with nancy the second she shot that can on her first try

jonathan clocked nancy’s ass BAD in the woods

forgot just how much lucas hated el this season

byeler and jancy have paralleled each other too many times for it to just mean nothing in the end.

chapter 6

the jumpscares in this show are top tier

what i love about this show is how it still has me holding my breath even though i already know what’s going to happen

“i don’t wanna be alone. do you?” “no.” i was gonna say he wouldn’t be alone cause joyce is there but i remembered he doesn’t wanna tell her til it’s all over

early jancy were so awkward, i love them <3

“i could have been killed!” “which is exactly why we need her. she’s a weapon!” but mike loves her at this point, right?

lucas loves will so much, it’s a shame we haven’t seen much more of their friendship

“you’re my best friend, too.” “okay :D” dustin looked so happy 😭

“what’s the weirdest part? me or the bear trap?” “you, definitely you.” pls

jonathan beating the shit out of steve was so satisfying

“only love makes you that crazy, sweetheart.” i’m not even gonna say anything. you all know.

we don’t give mike enough appreciation for being such a selfless person. he did everything he could to find will, he almost killed himself to protect dustin, he let el live in his basement without even knowing her, etc.

“she’s our friend and she’s crazy!” i love dustin with my whole heart

BABIES 🫶🏼

chapter 7

“if anyone asks where i am, i’ve left the country.” this season is really reminding me why mike was my favorite in the beginning

i wanna hug el so bad

“our son with a girl?” ted, to mike:

“a psychotic child broke his arm!” “a little girl, chief. a little one.” “that tone! do you hear that tone?” “honestly, i’m just trying to state a fact. it was a little girl.” this entire exchange is sending me so bad

“you couldn’t take jonathan byers.” get his ass!

it was such a great choice to have joyce be the first one to ever give el comfort because she’s such a soft, comforting person and i can’t think of anyone better

chapter 8

made it to the finale! gonna be honest, i didn’t think i’d get here in only two days but this show sucked me in the exact way it did the first time

“go to hell.” joyce is everything

waiting til this episode to give flashbacks on hop’s daughter was an excellent choice

steve just wanted to apologize to jonathan and now he’s an exasperated mother of seven. life comes at ya quick!!

choosing not to acknowledge that scene beyond this for the sake of my mental health

el is a badass but she shouldn’t have to be

brenner should’ve never made it to season 4

these kids acted their ASSES off in this show

GOD THIS JOYCE, HOPPER AND WILL SCENE

you’d think everything that went down would make nancy and karen care more about mike and pay attention to him but it doesn’t. mike deserves so much better.

will is in a hospital bed worrying about jonathan’s hand. I LOVE THIS KID.

byeler hug <3

they all really wanted to tell will about jennifer hayes crying 😭

“her name’s eleven.” “like the number?” he sounded baffled lmaooo

getting will back must’ve been so bittersweet for nancy

hop keeps throwing away lit cigarettes and all i keep thinking is that he’s gonna start a wildfire eventually

mike’s soft ‘see you, will’ 🥹

the camera!!

“your wife doesn’t have time to cook for me.” pls

the byers family 🫶🏼

my love for this show has officially been revived. rewatching this reminded me why i loved this show so much in the first place. the acting is amazing, especially from the kids, the writing was great, and the fucking jumpscares were incredible. i’m so excited to start season 2!!

[thranduel]

"the entire show revolves around mike and el's relationship, mike and will’s relationship isn’t as important"

…

how did mike and el meet in the first place?

mike was looking for WILL, his best friend of many years, after el opened the gate that resulted in his disappearance.

why did mike let el stay with them?

despite originally planning to send her away (“we’ll send her back to pennhurst or wherever she comes from” - start of ep 2), after he found out the “bad men” were after her and she told him he can’t tell any adult, he didn’t really have a choice. then he eventually found out she had powers and thought that would be their best way to get WILL back because WILL was the main person on his mind during the entirety of season 1 (and 2).

so no, he didn’t let her stay with them because “he fell in love with her at first sight”.

we already knew the love at first sight trope was bullshit, and finn himself has recently confirmed it too.

“mike never gave up on finding el in season 2”

not sure how this is used as “romantic proof” for mike and el only when he literally did the same thing for will FIRST in season 1. he never gave up on finding will. he spent day and night PHYSICALLY going out of his way searching for him even though he was warned not to and he knew it was dangerous. he used a walkie talkie, a radio, and even el herself to do whatever he could to contact will and get him back. if you’re gonna act like his actions in season 2 were romantic just because el is a girl and they were forced into a “relationship” at the age of 12 after knowing each other for 6 days, don’t ignore what he did for will (his best friend that he’s known for years) in season 1 just because will is a boy. he did the same for both of them, and like i said, whatever he did for el, he did for will first anyways. the only difference is that the writers made him kiss el to make their relationship romantic. and i’m not saying his actions for will HAD to be romantic in the first season, but i’m just pointing out the hypocrisy. whenever it’s a boy and girl, it’s romantic and they’re in love, but when it’s a boy and boy (even if one of those boys canonically is in love with the other), it’s “just friendship” and their meaningful moments are easily dismissed because people don’t wanna acknowledge them.

how did mike end up apologising to el in season 3 after their fight?

that wasn't el, that was actually WILL that he apologised to after a fight. he didn't chase after el. he sat on his couch feeling sorry for himself and mocking girls for being “too emotional”. but when will was upset, he rode his bike across town during a thunderstorm and looked for him everywhere to say he was sorry, because he couldn’t bear the thought of will being sad, especially after seeing the hurt expression on his face after he blurted out “it’s not my fault you don’t like girls.”

how did mike suddenly gain strength to say he loves el?

oh, right, because WILL gave him the painting he worked so hard on for him and confessed his OWN feelings for him in the van, using el's name as a disguise. that's the only reason mike was suddenly able to say “i love you”, because mike and el are incapable of managing their own relationship issues on their own without outside help. el screamed and cried and basically begged mike to say those 3 words, but he didn’t. he could only do it after will gave him strength and made him feel loved. mike has ALWAYS felt insecure and inferior in his relationship with el (he said it himself), but the ONLY thing that gave him happiness, strength and comfort was what will said.

“either way, mike still had a long monologue for el.”

first of all, i’m gonna bring up the “whatever he did for el, he did for will first anyways” statement, because it’s true 🫣 they really love re-using mike and will’s meaningful moments lol.

mike’s first long, meaningful monologue was for will in season 2. he was actually telling the complete truth, and it ended up reaching him and giving him so much strength that he was able to communicate with them and help save the world.

in season 4, he desperately makes up lies and exaggerates things (that contradict what we literally saw in the show in season 1) because he’s trying to save el in the moment, but viewers that actually pay attention immediately knew most of it made no sense (i’m not saying he doesn’t love el as a person - HE DOES. but all the romantic exaggerations and “love at first sight” bullshit just sounded ridiculous in that moment). he had to essentially be guilt tripped and pressured into saying “i love you” in multiple ways. nothing about that scene was romantic. it was stressful and devastating (for multiple people) and it didn’t actually end up saving the world at all. look what happened to max and the entire town.

that monologue will always be associated with their failure, not their success, so how is that romantic? why would el ever want to remember that as the moment her boyfriend first said he loved her?

tell me again, how does the show revolve around mike and el’s relationship and how is mike and will’s relationship “not as important” when WILL is the only reason mike and el met and the only reason they’re still even together? it’s so obvious will and el were always supposed to be written as two sides of the same coin; twins basically, with so many parallels and similarities. people can list all the things they find romantic about mike and el, and i can list even MORE things in return that can be applied to mike and will.

the only reason mike and will’s moments aren’t seen as romantic by most people is because they’re two boys

and it’s absolutely ridiculous that forced heteronormativity blinds people so badly because mike and will’s relationship is genuinely more healthy and realistic, but they only accept mike and el as romantic because that’s “the norm” and what we’re expected to accept. even in the show, that’s all the characters see, because of forced heteronormativity.

i know we’ve all spoken about this so many times but i am just so insanely tired of people’s hypocrisy. we all know for a 100% FACT that all these general viewers around the world would not have blindly accepted mike and el’s relationship if they were both the same gender. and for the record, regardless of el being a boy or girl, i personally still think her romantic relationship with mike is bad and wouldn’t want them together because they just simply don’t work romantically.

but even when we point out all the valid reasons why, no one wants to admit it JUST because she’s a girl. but if she were a boy, not only would they admit it’s bad and see what we’re talking about, they’d be having meltdowns and would’ve tried cancelling the show immediately by screaming about how forced and inappropriate it is to ��force a sexuality” (they always say this about anything related to being gay) onto this traumatised child who just escaped a lab and has no idea what romance is, but apparently it’s totally okay for them to force a romantic relationship onto her with a boy she’s only known for 6 days JUST because this relationship is straight and anything straight is acceptable even if it’s weird.

and then switch will’s gender. imagine if he was a girl instead of a boy. we have the very popular and well loved “childhood best friends” romance trope that everyone enjoys. mike and will have had years to develop a friendship and get to know each other, they have so much in common, they feel safe and comfortable around each other, they communicate and resolve their issues without outside help and they don’t lie to each other and can actually be THEMSELVES with each other. all traits of a very beautiful, genuine and healthy relationship. it sounds perfect, right? will seems like the obvious choice for mike. “she” (still pretend will is a girl for a moment) knew him before anyone else and “she’s” been at the centre of everything since the start (remember, mike and el wouldn’t have even MET if mike wasn’t searching for will, and they wouldn’t even still be together after that s4 monologue if will didn’t lie about the painting and confess “her” own feelings using el’s name as a disguise).

absolutely EVERYONE would be rooting for this and accepting this, because it IS the better romantic ship. but they just REFUSE to see it that way because will is a boy and it makes them uncomfortable. but yeah, like i said, it’s just crazy to me. swap el and will’s genders and then everyone will immediately switch sides on who they ship. it all comes down to homophobia. i can tell people lack basic common sense and media literacy and don’t understanding the shows they’re watching at all. it’s just what they deem as “acceptable” on the surface and it’s so painfully obvious.

[faelorelia]

Deciphering the Will-El-Mike Love Triangle: A Personal Perspective

I stopped liking Mileven as a couple way before I started shipping Byler, and the reason had nothing to do with Will, actually.

As someone who appreciates both El’s and Mike’s characters, I firmly believe they were always meant to be friends. They care deeply about each other, but their relationship has felt forced for a very long time. The main reason I stopped liking them as a couple is that I didn’t like how Mike treated El at the beginning of S3, which led El to “dump his ass.” Subconsciously, Mike believed he knew what was better for her and, without realizing it, hindered her from developing her own personality. Also, he wasn’t always good to her in S1 when he used her to find Will and snapped at her a few times. Don’t get me wrong – Mike is not a bad person, and he did many good things for El, but they simply didn’t seem to work as a couple. All they did when things went well was kiss and make out. They didn’t have any common interests or things to talk about, only the Upside Down-related adventures. This is one of the reasons I find their couple boring: when physical attraction is the only thing keeping you romantically interested in someone, it won’t last.

I watched all four seasons as a GA member, and my opinion is based on what I saw from this show. I didn’t even think about Will when considering El and Mike initially – this is just something I noticed when watching the show. Yes, I suspected Will had feelings for Mike since S3 came out but didn’t think they could possibly be reciprocated at that time. My initial thought was, “Aww, poor Will, I feel bad for him.” This thought only strengthened after watching S4. My love for Will as a character grew, and I felt a protective instinct towards him (much like Joyce, haha), but he is not the reason I think Mileven doesn’t work. Observing El and Mike’s relationship in S4 only made me like them as a couple even less. I don’t think Mike was scared of saying “I love you” just because he felt worthless and was afraid of losing her. I think there’s something deeper than that. Otherwise, why did the season finish with El being annoyed at him after his “brilliant” monologue? And let's not forget the reason why Mike finally said he loved El and who pushed him to do that.

I also believe that both El and Mike are incredible characters and their own heroes, but they just don’t bring out the best in each other. El does need someone to care for her and make her feel loved, but she needs a familial kind of love much more than a romantic one. And she has always needed people who would love her no matter what and wouldn’t make her feel like she can only be loved if she’s a “superhero.” She needs someone who would love her regardless of whether she has her powers or not. And she needs someone with whom she would still be independent and her own person. And I don’t think Mike is right for her in this respect.

Likewise, I don’t think El can give Mike what he needs. He doesn’t just want someone to kiss and make out with; he needs more than that. He needs someone who would share his hobbies and interests; someone who would understand him without saying a word; someone who is simply there for him and is always willing to support him; someone who makes him feel loved no matter what. I don’t think that El and Mike can love each other romantically under any circumstances. I think they started a relationship with their ideal images of each other in mind but later struggled because they felt they both didn’t live up to each other’s perfect images of themselves. And that’s what makes this relationship doomed to fail.

And then, you know what happened? It suddenly dawned on me, shedding light on many things I hadn’t quite understood at the beginning. It was that kind of moment when you think, “Oh, so that’s why! It has always been there but it took me so long to figure it out!”

There is exactly the kind of person in the series that can make Mike feel loved the way he wants to. The character that shares his interests and hobbies and is always there for him. The one that loves Mike unconditionally and is always ready to sacrifice his own feelings just to make his love feel better about himself, feel worthy and needed. This character has been there all along, and this character’s name is – you guessed it right – Will. And I wouldn’t be saying all of this if I believed Mike was totally straight, and could never love Will the way the latter loves him.

From the very first season, the show makes it clear that Mike and Will’s relationship is not the same as the one boys their age usually have (compare it to Lucas and Dustin’s, for example). We are both told and shown that Mike cares about Will much deeper than anyone else in their circle of friends, and he’s the one who was losing his mind, thinking he had lost Will but nevertheless never stopped looking. Mike is someone who’s always been ready to do anything for Will, to be there for him when he had nightmares and was possessed, and bike to him through the storm just to apologize for hurting his feelings. Mike has always cared about Will very deeply, and even though with time the societal pressures forced him to set some boundaries of what is allowed between two male friends, Mike often “slipped” and demonstrated his gentleness and attentiveness towards Will. The way he often looks at Will and the things he says to him when they’re alone make me believe he has feelings for him even more. He may not fully realize them yet, he may be confused about those feelings, and he may certainly convince the GA that he’s straight, but those feelings are there and just haven’t come out yet. He needs time to understand himself better and feel ready to acknowledge his feelings.

And returning to El, I strongly believe that her arc is leaning towards independence. She desperately needs to break free from everything and everyone that has been holding her back, to start living for herself at last and become her own person. This is how she can finally get her happy ending. And I think that Mike-friend can help her achieve that much better than Mike-boyfriend. As Max implied, El needs to discover herself without thinking about what her loved ones want her to be, and this is the right way for her character to develop. El is amazing and deserves happiness, as do Will and Mike.

Please note that this is my personal opinion and the impression I got from watching the show. You’re completely free to disagree with me and have a totally different perspective. If you ship Mileven or dislike Byler, simply move on. I’m sharing my thoughts here for those who I know will support them, and I’m not here to engage in ship wars. I’m not going to interact with you if you’re here to spit bile and troll those who don’t have the same opinion as you. Anyway, thanks for coming to my TED talk. :)

[thestrangestthing89]

I really don't like how terms meant for adult relationships keep getting applied to children. It happens a lot with the Mike/Will/El dynamic. I think it's often being done by really young parts of the fandom trying to sound more mature or trying to legitimize the Mike/El relationship. But it's really problematic and overlooks a lot of what's going on here. Some of it is obviously absurd - like calling Will a home wrecker. This term is for married couples and they are fresh out of middle school. Mike and El don't have a home to wreck. But some of it just simplifies the issue at hand - like saying Mike and Will are emotionally cheating. This implies there is an affair happening and they are young teens so it just sounds silly. Affairs are for adults. Not to mention that Mike and El's relationship is not deep. It's a silly middle school relationship that basically only qualifies as a relationship because they say that's what it is. They don't have the dynamics of a romantic relationship. No one is cheating here. Mike and Will are two scared kids who have heard their whole lives that being gay is bad and wrong. We know Will at least got bullied his whole life for this, both at school and by his father. It's likely Mike was too, but if he wasn't he still heard Will getting abused for this through their whole childhood. They've been taught their feelings are wrong. So they are pretending not to have them or trying very hard to ignore them. Mike and El are only together because they both think they are supposed to and they are trying to be normal. They want to fit in with the other kids. This doesn't mean they don't care about each other but there is a big difference between that and having a serious relationship. Mike and Will have known each other since childhood and have always had an emotional bond and close relationship. It didn't just start suddenly when El came into the picture. It's just how their relationship is. So Mike isn't suddenly emotionally cheating on El. He's acting the same way he's always acted with Will. Nothing about their dynamic has changed. There are a lot of implications when terms like this are used but my main problem is the one that says El's feelings are the only one's that matter. As if Mike and Will are horrible people for having feelings when El exists. They aren't and Mike isn't using her any more than she's using him. They both want to feel normal and use this relationship to accomplish that. There is this outcry of "what about El" whenever people bring up Byler and it's not ok. El's feelings are important but they aren't the only ones that are and no one is required to suffer to make her happy. She also doesn't love Mike or want to be in a relationship with him so it doesn't even matter. But Mike and Will are allowed to have feelings for each other even when Mike and El are together. There is this idea that they can't because it will somehow ruin the "purity" of Mike and Will's dynamic and this is so, so problematic. There aren't always clear lines drawn when one relationship ends and another starts. It in no way means that peoples feelings in the second relationship are less legitimate. No relationship is perfect and expecting them to be is unfair and unrealistic. It doesn't make their relationship less serious because Mike was in another one first (I would argue he was with Will first anyway just because he's known him longer).

A label doesn't need to be attached to this dynamic at all. They can just be confused and scared kids who are figuring out how to navigate their feelings. That's all it is. There is no need to judge them for not navigating this perfectly. No one ever does.

[kakerutori]

Thinking about how Mileven could break up. I don't see how Mike can be the one to do it. Mainly because it has to be done in a way where El isn't the victim of heartbreak, otherwise it makes Mike look really bad to the audience and the audience needs to root for Mike and (Byler's) success. (At least to those who are not already there).

If she's the one to break things off, however, it could make Mike the sympathetic character. As long as he is simultaneously having gay realizations, that way it's not as if he's just choosing Will as a back up plan. (obviously Will isn't but it needs to feel organic and independent from his relationship with El)

Does that mean the break up has to be El driven or just mutual? (Mutual at least seems to have the least amount of breakup "negativity").

The other factor is Mike or El finding out about the painting. But I would argue that if El finds out and decides to leave Mike for the sake of Will happiness.... doesn't that just make her even more the sympathetic party and Mike is the one she loves.

If season 5 Eleven starts to move away from Mike romantically, I guess that wouldn't be an issue anymore

It all depends of how it's written. I want Byler to happen but for me it still needs to be executed well. The multiple time jumps could also help with giving more Byler/Mileven space to play out.

Thats it! Thanks

Thanks for the thoroughly written ask, dear anon! I love having some content to gnaw on 👌

So, yes, the question of how would Mike and El break up. I really hope that it’s mutual and that they both realize that they simply aren’t working romantically.

I find it interesting how you factor in sympathy and perception of Mike and El. In the Steve-Nancy-Jonathan triangle, I think that perception is relevant. Nancy is shamed for bringing Jonathan over. Steve and Nancy are the affluent power couple of Hawkins High, and Jonathan enters from a down-to-earth, poor family. It’s the talk of the entire school when Steve and Nancy get together - everyone knows their names. The thing is that I believe that Nancy has romantic chemistry with Steve as well as Jonathan, so for them, emotional bond and sympathy when breaking up is quite felt since choice and weighing options of relationships is highlighted for their dynamic.

But as for the Will-El-Mike triangle, their status isn’t the focus, it’s their interactions. That’s not to say that Steve, Nancy, and Jonathan’s interactions don’t matter, but as kids, Will, El, and Mike are still much more clearly developing and changing. Their concepts of romance are portrayed to us as much more consequential of each other rather than outside influence. Take Nancy and Steve being influenced by Tommy and Carol. Take Nancy and Jonathan being influenced by Murray. Those types of waves in questioning relationships don’t happen between the kids. The only “outside” influence to muddle Mike and El’s relationship is Hopper who doesn’t or at least didn’t like Mike and made him lie to El, but otherwise, the kids are never under scrutiny or peer pressure to do things to/with the person they like.

What also makes Will, El, and Mike unique from Steve, Nancy, and Jonathan is that all three of the youngsters know each other very well. Mike and Will are best friends. Mike and El are bonded after finding Will together. El and Will became sister and brother. They are not mutually exclusive, they exist in each other’s lives very tightly. Meanwhile, Steve and Jonathan haven’t had a proper conversation (besides arguments) in canon. Ever.

So, yes, I think that a typical sympathetic break up would blur things for Will, El, and Mike, but the thing is that I also don’t think that that’s how the break up will be handled.

At the crux of it all, they both love Will. They both clearly want him to be happy, too, and I think that that starts at acceptance. If Will comes out to the both of them, I think that they’ll be able understand what he means and sweetly realize that their entire situation works out for the better if Mike and El break up. It won’t be as smooth as that, of course - and, actually, I think that this might be the hardest part of the process as Will would probably feel too guilty to ever come out to either of them and risk changing what he has with them let alone expose his lie to Mike - but I think that all the pieces can clearly fall into place as their loves for each other mix and collide.

I know that Will is a point of contention and consideration, and I think that it wouldn’t feel as complete of a break up if Mike and El don’t address him and what he means for their standing relationship. Will did so much for Mike and El in season 4. He tried to push El to tell the truth about the bullying, and he tried to encourage Mike that he was “the heart” and that El needed him. Although neither of those pushes ended up in full, fleshed-out conversations, that’s not on Will. That’s on Mike and El. And the fact that neither of them could deepen their conversations even with Will’s help says a lot to me. But yeah, we’re here leaning on a break up, I know that I’m not here to argue that. The question is how.

I think that Will’s painting needs to be addressed, and once it is, no matter where Will possibly coming out factors into this, El will realize that her brother has a crush on Mike and not a girl, Mike will realize that he’s fallen in love with Will’s affections and thus him, and they’ll both be able to sort out their circumstances. Of course, it’s not that simple, but I think that they’ve come far enough to discern how to handle the difficulties. El needs to know that she’s not the monster first, and Mike needs to know that he’s worth more than being El’s support first. Then their disagreements about their perceptions will come more fully into view, which will lead to a mutual understanding.

I agree that it would be tough if it was one-sided in either direction. Because in order for it to be one-sided and difficult would mean that either of them haven’t fully grappled with who they are.

But if they do understand who they are, it puts many awkward notions at ease. Because if El is for Will’s happiness, she’s also for her own. She doesn’t have to be against herself. She can see how Mike isn’t the one romantically for her and that she can have someone who is openly affectionate, who writes “love” on every letter and note. He doesn’t see her qualities like a partner but as a confidant, and that’s okay. They can still be great together, they can still be close. And if Mike is able to realize his sexuality and point of affection for Will as romantic, it’s not like he suddenly needs to remove El from his life. Hell, El and Will are siblings now, so whoever he’s with, he’s going to have the other there. I think that El is special to Mike; she always will be. She’s the first person that’s given him this opportunity of a lifetime, and I think that he can love her as fondly as ever, just not as a girlfriend anymore.

Their bond as each other’s protectors and safe places will trump their being exes, if you ask me.

So here’s how I dream it to go: Mike and El talk. It’s casual at first, but they’re both still tense after all the tragedy. They talk about how scared/worried they are, how they just don’t seem to hold each other up. Even though they’re both trying, something is off. They like being together, but if this is love, then it doesn’t feel quite right. They both agree. Mike still genuinely thanks her for the painting to which things shift. El doesn’t know about the painting. It was for him? Mike is now flustered. El realizes that Will is in love with Mike. They piece it together aloud, and she asks how Mike feels about him. All it takes is for Mike to convey that he does like Will. He apologizes. He feels horrible, guilty. But El just puts her hand on his. It’s okay. She didn’t realize it, either. The fault isn’t always on one thing, she’s learned. They hug. Something like that.

I want to close this by saying that I agree that it all comes down to how the break up is written, and I think that the writers have all the pieces to make it pretty lovely. Will, El, and Mike all love each other very much, it’s just a matter of sorting out the displaced romance without losing anything other kind of love for each other.

Basically…

Their central bond of unconditional love doesn’t ever need to change, just the status of their flexible relationships.

[wistfulenchantress]

i'm going to talk about el now, because i always talk about mike and he is just a gay loser, meanwhile she's a bamf.

I want to start by saying that in the same way that Mike doesn't actually hold any initial romantic feelings towards El, she doesn't hold any towards him.

Of course, he is the second ever person to show her kindness and she cares about him as such, but beyond that, nothing.

we see her want to be pretty LIKE NANCY, and getting that reassurance from mike. we see her open up to physical contact and learn to trust people, but this does not imply romantic feelings for mike.

she also is just now learning what familial love is from joyce, and what friendship is from dustin and lucas.

then... it gets fucked up (i know lucas and nancy didn't have bad intentions but also i lowkey blame them because elmike is the loml) because mike wheeler is now convinced that he has a crush on this girl

"would you be like my brother?" speaks for itself because she does NOT KNOW what romantic love is.

she doesn't seem to dislike it when mike kisses her, but that doesn't mean she is ready for a romantic relationship that she doesn't understand the implications of. plus, it's not a very romantic kiss. it's messy, and mike doesn't look super pleased afterward

then she sacrifices herself for her friends NOT ROMANTIC, and is missing for ages.

she also believes that mike might turn her in, although she still (obviously) misses the person that housed and fed her after she was trapped in a thunderstorm.

now, her jealousy with max. at this point she has been watching tv with hopper, and has a sense of what a romantic relationship is supposed to look like. she is also pent up and misses her friends, and the concept of interacting with other people.

so she is jealous that max gets to talk to people IN GENERAL, and it's not just about Mike.

when she finds mike, their initial reunion is NOT ROMANTIC OML THEY HUG THATS IT.

then, mike is worried about her because she literally sacrificed herself for him and he seems to have been blaming himself, this is not the point, she thinks that this is the time for a kiss. now, she doesn't know that she likes mike (she doesn't know how to know what she likes at ALL), she just knows that he likes her (allegedly, but i digress). so she tries to kiss him.

they say goodbye, and she goes and does badass motherfucker things and closes the gate.

fast forward to the snow ball. in all of this i am not saying that el doesn't have romantic feelings for mike. she does look happy, truly, in this scene (he doesn't, or less so, but, again, i digress). and at this point the relationship isn't problematic.

but let's fast forward to season three.

el and mike are together constantly, and all they seem to do is kiss. like hopper constantly said, it is UNNATURAL. jancy and lumax both have balanced relationships, but mike and el don't.

el seems to be taking all her cues from mike and 'this works let's just to this' mentality, while mike is taking all of his cues from lucas but also entirely misunderstanding them the entire fucking time

then, when hopper finally puts his foot down, she has to figure out something else to do (this is a good thing, btw)

so she goes to max. she develops a positive relationship with another girl who actually understands romantic relationships, although it is a rather teenage understanding.

"how do i know what i like?"

Max teaches el about being herself and actually making decisions, and is such a positive influence on her. she dumps mike (yes girlboss) (and he doesn't even give a shit but i digress [i love the word digress]). she gets to know max more, and learns about other ways of enjoying life. of course then the mindflayer gets involved and everything goes to shit again.

now, addressing the love confession. i want to note that i think mike and el love each other. but it is NOT romantic.

that is the issue. mike does love her, but when he says it out loud he suddenly perceives it romantically (AND IS LITERALLY HORRIFIED)

i don’t think el can really tell the difference at this point. (note that joyce and hopper are clearly in love, but act just friends, and same with mike and will. meanwhile the wheeler parents aren't in love and are a couple. her and mike's perceptions of love are both kind of weird, but this isn't super relevant)

but she pretends not to hear it.

and i think she takes mikes apology to heart, he follows lucas's advice (essentially a script) well, although he physically can't say the word love.

now, her love confession at the end. remember that they've been in Lenora, so she's had some time to think. she is also struggling with the loss of her father and her powers (how she has defined her worth. partially because of mike.)

she almost doesn't do it. they are seemingly just friends at this point, nothing has established them as together until her "i love you, too."

she doesn't seem to bothered by the fact that he doesn't say it, or kiss her back, or close his eyes, although it may be something that she internalizes - JUST LIKE THE FROM MIKE STUFF

i think that, despite the 'from mike' thing, it is easy to romanticize mike when she is so far away from him. we see this through her little shrine in her room.

we see her start to come into herself, despite the bullying, loss of hopper, max, and her other friends, and moving, and lack of powers. she tries to find her own identity.

but the other point about her romanization of mike. it is based in lies. she is lying to him about her friendships, and being popular, and all of it.

we see her illusions, the happy little move romance she has been trying to maintain, collapse throughout the beginning of mike's visit. the bullying from angela, the lack of support and fear from mike, and, of course, 'who said that i didn't'

now, i could talk for ages about the things that drive her back to the lab, but i want to keep the focus on the romance right now bc that is what this specific post is about.

when she reunites with mike, it is not romantic. she greets will and jonathan with even more emotion and relief.

now, the pizza scene. mike has his comedian guise on, and is trying to cheer her up. and it seems to be working.

here is where i am torn. mike is NOT about to say i love you, he just isn't. i think he would've tried to break up with her, but that's not the point. i think that you can interpret HER as still expecting a love confession OR ready for a breakup.

i'm not sure what the intention it, but art is in the eye of the beholder and i think it can be seen either way.

of course, argyle interrupts and they are all having fun again (sort of)

now, she is trying to save max. and i want to emphasize that it is seeing max being hurt by vecna that pushes her to fight (go watch the scene if you don't believe me)

she generally looks sort of miserable throughout mikes confession. and she doesn't run to his arms, later. she is distancing herself from him. ALLEGEDLY. so, she does not think that this fixed their relationship, and isn't happy.