#because Mike and El make each other feel bad when they are in a romantic relationship

[will80sbyers]

Mike felt like he lost Will and said the last year was weird for him because he didn't have Will by his side and he said he was worrying too much about his own personal insecurities regarding himself and his relationship with El and that he basically regrets not doing more to stay best friends with Will and we know he even called him a lot... so he tried so hard because he was feeling awful and SPECIFICALLY because he was missing Will...

Mike was missing Will more than he was missing El, and even if he was worrying about her it wasn't only because he was worrying about how she was doing there...

in fact, after she started telling him that everything was great...it was because he was worrying about how her doing good in Lenora while he was being bullied at school was making him feel like he should be more cool if he ever wanted to stay in a relationship with her!

and so he didn't even realize that there was something wrong with her in the past months because he was focused on feeling bad for himself...

their whole relationship was based on lies for those months, all those letters that El sent were her putting up an act with him and at the same time he was feeling like a loser back home and like he had even lost the only person that always made him feel better about himself

wow.

Byler is coming to us next season because that's what Mike needs the most (and even wants the most)

He's gonna realize that soon.

❤️

[thebylertheory]

"If you think El doesn't need to end the show in a relationship and she can be happy without one, then that goes for Will too" here's why you're wrong.

The reason why it's different for Will, whether you like it or not, IS because of his sexuality. Homophobia and Will's belief that he'll never find romantic love because of him being gay is a core part of his character. Romantic love, or the lack thereof, has been an important part of his story for at least the past two seasons. He already has an abundance of love from his friends and family. He's not lacking on that part. But he wants romantic love. That is what he desires. They have made that clear. And they have gone out of their way to show us that he wants that with MIKE. And they have even taken it a step further and shown us why Mike and Will would be good together. They bring out the best in each other and they make one another feel good about themselves. So, for them to do all of that and then end the show by reaffirming Will's belief that he was right and he's never going to find love because he's gay is a very cruel and pointless ending for his character. He has suffered enough. He should be allowed to end the show with the boy he loves and believing that he's worthy of that type of love. He deserves to have the relationship he's always wanted and thought he would never have.

Romantic love has never been an important part of El's story. Since season 1, she has been trying to find a family/home and she has been trying to find out who she is in a world she was isolated from since birth. That is the most important part of her story and character. Her relationship with Mike has never been the main focus. In fact, she does better and she thrives more and she sees the most development as a person when her and Mike are separated. They have shown us that their relationship holds her back and that they're not good for each other. They don't make each other feel loved or good about themselves. Now, that's not to say I don't think El should EVER be in a relationship. She can! But a romantic relationship, especially one with Mike, is not as important to her story as it is to Will's. In fact, a relationship with Mike has done more bad than good for her. She doesn't NEED romantic love or a relationship with Mike for her happy ending. Her happy ending can consist of her just being able to live comfortably with her family and knowing who she is and feeling confident in her identity. That ending is what will be the most fulfilling for her character.

[milevenstancyendgame]

Reasons why Mileven drama/breakup and Byler endgame in ST5 are unlikely

Looking at the whole show, we can see two constants regarding these relationships:

-Mike and El keep overcoming external and internal obstacles, and always end up together again

-Will's homosexuality is hinted at from the start, as well as his deep feelings for Mike.

Regarding the latter, this creates the expectation to have Will accept his own feelings and then his friends do the same.

In S4, it's clear that we got the first. Will's monologue didn't achieve the coming out, but he did express his love for Mike, albeit disguising it as El's feelings. He basically sacrificed himself in order to support Mike, who in turn was able to support El, who then managed to (barely) save Max.

Based on that, I think we have two possible scenarios for S5:

-Will won't confess his love to Mike openly. He has accepted that Mike and El love each other, and we see him having moved on from this right from the beginning of the season. His coming out as gay will still happen though, and Mike's acceptance of that will be crucial for Will.

-Will will confess to Mike that he's in love with him - I'm thinking of the close-up of his face during Mike's monologue in S4, when he says "And somehow I thought telling you how I felt would make that day hurt more." Will clearly feels the same way, but maybe hearing Mike confess this to El gives him the courage to confess it to Mike as well.

No matter which scenario we'll get, I think the focus will be on Mike's acceptance of Will's homosexuality, on him being different, but Mike making him feel better for it. It's possible that Mike might mess it up, not knowing what to say, but no doubt he will be accepting of Will's sexuality, and I think this will give power to Will to be freely himself (and maybe kick some butt).

However, from a storytelling perspective, I really don't see Mike suddenly realising he loves Will and not El. It would be extremely bad writing, because they have been telling us that Mike and El love each other since they first met in S1.

If they had not planned for them to be endgame, they would have sunken the ship already. There were plenty of opportunities. But what we got instead were relationship issues and them being able to work through these issues.

Mike not being very articulate at telling El how he feels about her has also been a constant since S1. However, this finally got resolved at the end of S4.

That's why I think that ST5 will start of with a strenghtened bond between them and their love won't be tested any more.

Mike finally told her how much he loves her, El has no more reason to doubt him. Mike doing a 180 degree turn and realising he lied to El would be equal to creating a new character for Mike. It also would spit on everything they took the pain to show us of Mike and El's love during the whole show.

From a storytelling perspective, this would be total self-sabotage. Why waste a whole series to tell viewers that two characters are in love and then saying "Surprise! It was a lie all along!"? What would be achieved by that?

If it had been their goal to show us that romantic feelings can change, then they would have had to tell a completely different story and would have sowed the seeds for doubt from the very beginning. Instead we got nothing but soulmatism for Mike and Eleven (including their relationship issues, because they overcame those).

Also, remember that this story is about defeating the big evil with love. El is the super-hero. Destroying her biggest source of power (love) would make it impossible for her to win against anyone.

Apart from all this, considering everything that needs to be wrapped up in S5, there simply is not enough time to have Will confess to Mike, Mike figuring out his new feelings, getting up the courage to tell El, the drama of breaking up the main ship of the show, have El get over it, establish Mike and Will as a couple, get all their friends' support, AND defeat Henry.

This is why they resolved Mike and El's conflict in S4. Because there won't even be time for their established relationship to have any drama. This is why they already showed us that Will accepts and supports Mike and El's love, so the love triangle situation has been resolved as well.

The only thing left to resolve is Will's coming out to his friends, which doesn't need to take up a lot of time. It could be one or two scenes.

[gayofthefae]

You know what I just realized?

Joyce and Hopper didn't kiss before he died.

They left that a loose thread for when we got back. They left that something missing. They left their love story unfinished. They left us unsatisfied.

Once, again, they know to do it. Mike and El kissed in season 1 so we would be satisfied...so we wouldn't want more. So the separation wasn't as urgent.

Oh, they need to reunite so they can...what? Dance together?

No, Joyce and Hopper need to reunite because they still haven't kissed. Mike and El need to reunite because they...miss each other. There's no romance to that.

Joyce and Hopper had a season focused on romantic buildup where Joyce wasn't ready to admit her feelings for Hopper and was defensive when they were called out to her. But in the end, she initiated. That just exacerbated her grief when she thought he died because of what they could've had and never did. It drove her, this Enzo's date they made. They never even kissed.

Mike and El a season focused on romantic buildup where Mike wasn't ready to admit his feelings for El and was defensive when they were called out to him. But in the end, he initiated. That just exacerbated his grief when he thought she died because they had been romantic.

But it didn't drive him because he wanted what he never had. He just missed what he did get to have with her. They got together. That counts. In a way that season 3 Joyce and Hopper didn't. There was a promise of it but nobody was thinking in season 1 "the Snow Ball is when they REALLY get together, this kiss is just buildup to the Snow Ball". Honestly, when I thought she was gonna live, I figured the Snow Ball would be off screen.

It's that simple. They didn't give us a payoff for Joyce and Hopper. So we stayed invested. But with Mike and El, we were just reaching for the past. That's their whole thing, missing what they had. Because it was never really the same. Joyce was driven towards the future when she found hope because of what she still wanted to achieve with him. Mike dwelled on the past whenever he was reminded of her.

She was idealized in Mike's mind. He had her and lost her. The best version of her romantically is cemented in the past. It doesn't drive him to go after her, it drives him to think about her. But the best version of Hopper to Joyce isn't what was, it's what would have been - which, even when inaccessible, is still the future. So when she had hope, she went after what she never had.

Mike and El had no payoff left. I actually thought they did the first time because that kiss was so bad (Finn's words) I thought it was a cheek kiss. I didn't find out until Beyond Stranger Things that they actually kissed in season 1. Once again, I misremembered or misinterpreted a better version of what it typically would be if they were endgame. But that was my bias.

Mike and El had no payoff left. Joyce and Hopper did. Cut the kiss. Keep the Snow Ball promise. That's all. Have them kiss at the Snow Ball for the first time. Now you've created "the moment they've been waiting for".

What you don't do is make us fine without more. Remember when people thought it was a miniseries that was over? They shouldn't have. That shouldn't have been enough closure.

They haven't been "built up for 4 seasons". They've "gotten together" four times. That's different. What that does is make so every time...we care a little less.

I don't care. Because you made me stop caring. By giving me complete satisfaction on day 1. I got my closure. I moved on to Jonathan and Nancy, Lucas and Max, Joyce and Hopper. They got together and there were other couples who hadn't. I still thought they were cute, but I moved. on.

There was something bigger to care about each season because they gave me closure in season 1.

I cared about them in season 1. In season 2, I cared about Jonathan and Nancy. In season 3, I cared about Steve and Robin. In season 4, I cared about Joyce and Hopper. Always. Something. Bigger.

And speaking of season 4, Lucas and Max also did. not. kiss. It was a promise. Not a payoff.

They gave us "the couple who's already kissed 1-6 times kiss again or the couple who never have?" Obviously the bigger payoff is never have. They could have made it so they never had. Hell, it could have been built up for 4 seasons. I'm proposing two: don't kiss until the Snow Ball. But they could have done 4. She gets back, they don't know where they stand after so long, season 3 is similar awkwardness but the ily is the main plot and happens earlier, she heard him but he doesn't know until the 4x03 fight, he confessed in 4x09. THAT'S 4 seasons of build up.

Making a repeat in the first place also told us that the payoffs didn't really count. If it didn't count the first time that it needed another, why should I care the next? Or the next? Why should I ever believe you when you say "happily ever after"?

I stopped caring. Because they told me it didn't matter enough to stick. And I stopped caring because they already gave me what I wanted. Mike and El GOT TOGETHER.

There should not be a point in the show where I can pause it and deniably say "they lived happily ever after" with no corrections. You could argue in every other case "but they haven't kissed yet" - Lucas and Max, Joyce and Hopper in their separations, even if you pause and say happily ever after when they ask the other out. The payoff hasn't happened yet.

But you could show someone the season 1 kiss and say that was that. And they'd believe you. And they'd go on their. They'd go on their way.

What we got was 4 payoffs so we only really cared the first time. Joyce and Hopper's was delayed until we were actually supposed to care. They know we'll only care once because there's only one first, so they saved it.

They know how to do it. They choose not to. Every. Single. Time.

[sogoodtoheritsvicious]

it’s tiiiiimeee

i haven’t watched this show in full in five years 😵‍💫but it’s october and i was gonna watch thee byeler episode aka 2x02 on halloween anyway so i thought i might as well rewatch the entire show and make it everyone’s problem

forgot about the jumpscare being right at the beginning

baby will <3

they were all BABIES and now they’re all grown and the damn final season still hasn’t premiered lmao

dustin was so adorable

“it was a seven.” “huh?” “the roll, it was a seven. the demogorgon, it got me.” the way will was incapable of lying to mike, GOD, i feel sick

fun fact: will’s adorable little “see you tomorrow!” is immediately what made him my favorite

“kiss your mom ‘night for me!” lmfao

forgot how damn good the jumpscares are

gonna need mike to see will with a gun at least once before this show is over

“damn,you look like hell, chief!” “oh, yeah? well, i looked better than your wife when i left her this morning.” HELP

“lonnie used to call him queer.” “is he?” FUCKING HELL, HOPPER 😭 i completely forgot about that scene lmfao

EL, MY BABY

benny was such a good man :( he didn’t deserve to die

that poor dog was so hated irl 😭

“you think we got a problem here?” my brother in christ, a boy is missing

“i’m the only one that cares about will!” mike loves will so much, i’m gonna cry

i completely forgot about hop’s daughter

mike sneaking out while steve’s sneaking in 😭 this show is also a comedy

winona ryder the actress that you are

chapter 2

maybe i’m going to find out in this ep i can’t remember if they ever investigate benny’s death or link it to everything else that was going on

“stop it, you’re freaking her out!” “she’s freaking ME out!” lucas was the only real one in the beginning

poor baby. el didn’t even know what privacy was before this moment.

“oh, you can speak!” she gets that a lot 😭

mike and el had so much potential as friends, FUCK the duffers for ruining them by making it romantic. now they don’t even seem like they like each other

i hope s5 focuses on more on will and lucas’ friendship

jonathan was such a good brother

brenner. always at the scene of the fucking crime.

mike naming his dino ‘rory’ because he roars 🥹

FUCK BRENNER ALL MY HOMIES HATE BRENNER

karen was such a good mom in the beginning

i hate lonnie with a passion, he’s an abusive piece of shit who should’ve been killed off

i don’t blame lucas at all for the way he was acting with el at first

“one kid goes missing, the other one runs wild? some real fine parenting right there.”

they kept pointing out so many similarities between will and el, i can’t believe they didn’t go anywhere with it

“can’t ask a corpse a question.” die. just die.

nancy: *losing her virginity*

barb: *losing her life*

chapter 3

“no one breaks in here.” yeah, they just break out

love jonathan but steve wasn’t exactly wrong about the pictures

joyce byers the mother that you are

mike wanted nothing to do with el once they found will’s “body” but we’re supposed to believe that he loved her the second he saw her in the woods.

chapter 4

i can’t believe they showed that mike has all of the drawings will has created and expected us to be normal about it

“screw his funeral!” “what?!” TEARS

jonathan loves joyce and will so much 🥺

steve was such an unbearable asshole

can we PLEASE talk about charlie being able to hold his own with winona in that scene about will’s body? we already know winona’s gonna blow it out of the water but he did just as well

completely forgot about mike doing el’s makeup this episode dkfkgjd

“where are you from, exactly?” “bad place.” 😭

that troy scene still sends

“the kid is dead. end of story.”

they put too much pressure on el. i hope when all this shit is over she’s able to just be a normal kid.

this show used to be so fucking good

i love how hop tries lying to the state trooper and when that doesn’t work he just knocks him the fuck out 😭

I FUCKING HATE LONNIE

i’m so glad they had jonathan realize that joyce was telling the truth about everything that was going on instead of just dragging it all out.

chapter 5

hate lonnie for taking advantage of joyce when she’s clearly in a vulnerable position

“wait until we tell will that jennifer hayes was crying at his funeral” lmao

all this season is showing me is how severely they’ve robbed us of joyce and will scenes in future episodes

“man, these aren’t real nilla wafers.” mr. clark must think they’re horrible friends, i’m crying. dustin is right, though, fake nilla wafers suck.

“it might even swallow us whole.” and that’s exactly what’s happening by the end of s4

“he’s wanted to go to nyu since he was six. years. old!” she should’ve killed lonnie right then & there

can’t prove it but jonathan fell in love with nancy the second she shot that can on her first try

jonathan clocked nancy’s ass BAD in the woods

forgot just how much lucas hated el this season

byeler and jancy have paralleled each other too many times for it to just mean nothing in the end.

chapter 6

the jumpscares in this show are top tier

what i love about this show is how it still has me holding my breath even though i already know what’s going to happen

“i don’t wanna be alone. do you?” “no.” i was gonna say he wouldn’t be alone cause joyce is there but i remembered he doesn’t wanna tell her til it’s all over

early jancy were so awkward, i love them <3

“i could have been killed!” “which is exactly why we need her. she’s a weapon!” but mike loves her at this point, right?

lucas loves will so much, it’s a shame we haven’t seen much more of their friendship

“you’re my best friend, too.” “okay :D” dustin looked so happy 😭

“what’s the weirdest part? me or the bear trap?” “you, definitely you.” pls

jonathan beating the shit out of steve was so satisfying

“only love makes you that crazy, sweetheart.” i’m not even gonna say anything. you all know.

we don’t give mike enough appreciation for being such a selfless person. he did everything he could to find will, he almost killed himself to protect dustin, he let el live in his basement without even knowing her, etc.

“she’s our friend and she’s crazy!” i love dustin with my whole heart

BABIES 🫶🏼

chapter 7

“if anyone asks where i am, i’ve left the country.” this season is really reminding me why mike was my favorite in the beginning

i wanna hug el so bad

“our son with a girl?” ted, to mike:

“a psychotic child broke his arm!” “a little girl, chief. a little one.” “that tone! do you hear that tone?” “honestly, i’m just trying to state a fact. it was a little girl.” this entire exchange is sending me so bad

“you couldn’t take jonathan byers.” get his ass!

it was such a great choice to have joyce be the first one to ever give el comfort because she’s such a soft, comforting person and i can’t think of anyone better

chapter 8

made it to the finale! gonna be honest, i didn’t think i’d get here in only two days but this show sucked me in the exact way it did the first time

“go to hell.” joyce is everything

waiting til this episode to give flashbacks on hop’s daughter was an excellent choice

steve just wanted to apologize to jonathan and now he’s an exasperated mother of seven. life comes at ya quick!!

choosing not to acknowledge that scene beyond this for the sake of my mental health

el is a badass but she shouldn’t have to be

brenner should’ve never made it to season 4

these kids acted their ASSES off in this show

GOD THIS JOYCE, HOPPER AND WILL SCENE

you’d think everything that went down would make nancy and karen care more about mike and pay attention to him but it doesn’t. mike deserves so much better.

will is in a hospital bed worrying about jonathan’s hand. I LOVE THIS KID.

byeler hug <3

they all really wanted to tell will about jennifer hayes crying 😭

“her name’s eleven.” “like the number?” he sounded baffled lmaooo

getting will back must’ve been so bittersweet for nancy

hop keeps throwing away lit cigarettes and all i keep thinking is that he’s gonna start a wildfire eventually

mike’s soft ‘see you, will’ 🥹

the camera!!

“your wife doesn’t have time to cook for me.” pls

the byers family 🫶🏼

my love for this show has officially been revived. rewatching this reminded me why i loved this show so much in the first place. the acting is amazing, especially from the kids, the writing was great, and the fucking jumpscares were incredible. i’m so excited to start season 2!!

[faelorelia]

Deciphering the Will-El-Mike Love Triangle: A Personal Perspective

I stopped liking Mileven as a couple way before I started shipping Byler, and the reason had nothing to do with Will, actually.

As someone who appreciates both El’s and Mike’s characters, I firmly believe they were always meant to be friends. They care deeply about each other, but their relationship has felt forced for a very long time. The main reason I stopped liking them as a couple is that I didn’t like how Mike treated El at the beginning of S3, which led El to “dump his ass.” Subconsciously, Mike believed he knew what was better for her and, without realizing it, hindered her from developing her own personality. Also, he wasn’t always good to her in S1 when he used her to find Will and snapped at her a few times. Don’t get me wrong – Mike is not a bad person, and he did many good things for El, but they simply didn’t seem to work as a couple. All they did when things went well was kiss and make out. They didn’t have any common interests or things to talk about, only the Upside Down-related adventures. This is one of the reasons I find their couple boring: when physical attraction is the only thing keeping you romantically interested in someone, it won’t last.

I watched all four seasons as a GA member, and my opinion is based on what I saw from this show. I didn’t even think about Will when considering El and Mike initially – this is just something I noticed when watching the show. Yes, I suspected Will had feelings for Mike since S3 came out but didn’t think they could possibly be reciprocated at that time. My initial thought was, “Aww, poor Will, I feel bad for him.” This thought only strengthened after watching S4. My love for Will as a character grew, and I felt a protective instinct towards him (much like Joyce, haha), but he is not the reason I think Mileven doesn’t work. Observing El and Mike’s relationship in S4 only made me like them as a couple even less. I don’t think Mike was scared of saying “I love you” just because he felt worthless and was afraid of losing her. I think there’s something deeper than that. Otherwise, why did the season finish with El being annoyed at him after his “brilliant” monologue? And let's not forget the reason why Mike finally said he loved El and who pushed him to do that.

I also believe that both El and Mike are incredible characters and their own heroes, but they just don’t bring out the best in each other. El does need someone to care for her and make her feel loved, but she needs a familial kind of love much more than a romantic one. And she has always needed people who would love her no matter what and wouldn’t make her feel like she can only be loved if she’s a “superhero.” She needs someone who would love her regardless of whether she has her powers or not. And she needs someone with whom she would still be independent and her own person. And I don’t think Mike is right for her in this respect.

Likewise, I don’t think El can give Mike what he needs. He doesn’t just want someone to kiss and make out with; he needs more than that. He needs someone who would share his hobbies and interests; someone who would understand him without saying a word; someone who is simply there for him and is always willing to support him; someone who makes him feel loved no matter what. I don’t think that El and Mike can love each other romantically under any circumstances. I think they started a relationship with their ideal images of each other in mind but later struggled because they felt they both didn’t live up to each other’s perfect images of themselves. And that’s what makes this relationship doomed to fail.

And then, you know what happened? It suddenly dawned on me, shedding light on many things I hadn’t quite understood at the beginning. It was that kind of moment when you think, “Oh, so that’s why! It has always been there but it took me so long to figure it out!”

There is exactly the kind of person in the series that can make Mike feel loved the way he wants to. The character that shares his interests and hobbies and is always there for him. The one that loves Mike unconditionally and is always ready to sacrifice his own feelings just to make his love feel better about himself, feel worthy and needed. This character has been there all along, and this character’s name is – you guessed it right – Will. And I wouldn’t be saying all of this if I believed Mike was totally straight, and could never love Will the way the latter loves him.

From the very first season, the show makes it clear that Mike and Will’s relationship is not the same as the one boys their age usually have (compare it to Lucas and Dustin’s, for example). We are both told and shown that Mike cares about Will much deeper than anyone else in their circle of friends, and he’s the one who was losing his mind, thinking he had lost Will but nevertheless never stopped looking. Mike is someone who’s always been ready to do anything for Will, to be there for him when he had nightmares and was possessed, and bike to him through the storm just to apologize for hurting his feelings. Mike has always cared about Will very deeply, and even though with time the societal pressures forced him to set some boundaries of what is allowed between two male friends, Mike often “slipped” and demonstrated his gentleness and attentiveness towards Will. The way he often looks at Will and the things he says to him when they’re alone make me believe he has feelings for him even more. He may not fully realize them yet, he may be confused about those feelings, and he may certainly convince the GA that he’s straight, but those feelings are there and just haven’t come out yet. He needs time to understand himself better and feel ready to acknowledge his feelings.

And returning to El, I strongly believe that her arc is leaning towards independence. She desperately needs to break free from everything and everyone that has been holding her back, to start living for herself at last and become her own person. This is how she can finally get her happy ending. And I think that Mike-friend can help her achieve that much better than Mike-boyfriend. As Max implied, El needs to discover herself without thinking about what her loved ones want her to be, and this is the right way for her character to develop. El is amazing and deserves happiness, as do Will and Mike.

Please note that this is my personal opinion and the impression I got from watching the show. You’re completely free to disagree with me and have a totally different perspective. If you ship Mileven or dislike Byler, simply move on. I’m sharing my thoughts here for those who I know will support them, and I’m not here to engage in ship wars. I’m not going to interact with you if you’re here to spit bile and troll those who don’t have the same opinion as you. Anyway, thanks for coming to my TED talk. :)

[thestrangestthing89]

I really don't like how terms meant for adult relationships keep getting applied to children. It happens a lot with the Mike/Will/El dynamic. I think it's often being done by really young parts of the fandom trying to sound more mature or trying to legitimize the Mike/El relationship. But it's really problematic and overlooks a lot of what's going on here. Some of it is obviously absurd - like calling Will a home wrecker. This term is for married couples and they are fresh out of middle school. Mike and El don't have a home to wreck. But some of it just simplifies the issue at hand - like saying Mike and Will are emotionally cheating. This implies there is an affair happening and they are young teens so it just sounds silly. Affairs are for adults. Not to mention that Mike and El's relationship is not deep. It's a silly middle school relationship that basically only qualifies as a relationship because they say that's what it is. They don't have the dynamics of a romantic relationship. No one is cheating here. Mike and Will are two scared kids who have heard their whole lives that being gay is bad and wrong. We know Will at least got bullied his whole life for this, both at school and by his father. It's likely Mike was too, but if he wasn't he still heard Will getting abused for this through their whole childhood. They've been taught their feelings are wrong. So they are pretending not to have them or trying very hard to ignore them. Mike and El are only together because they both think they are supposed to and they are trying to be normal. They want to fit in with the other kids. This doesn't mean they don't care about each other but there is a big difference between that and having a serious relationship. Mike and Will have known each other since childhood and have always had an emotional bond and close relationship. It didn't just start suddenly when El came into the picture. It's just how their relationship is. So Mike isn't suddenly emotionally cheating on El. He's acting the same way he's always acted with Will. Nothing about their dynamic has changed. There are a lot of implications when terms like this are used but my main problem is the one that says El's feelings are the only one's that matter. As if Mike and Will are horrible people for having feelings when El exists. They aren't and Mike isn't using her any more than she's using him. They both want to feel normal and use this relationship to accomplish that. There is this outcry of "what about El" whenever people bring up Byler and it's not ok. El's feelings are important but they aren't the only ones that are and no one is required to suffer to make her happy. She also doesn't love Mike or want to be in a relationship with him so it doesn't even matter. But Mike and Will are allowed to have feelings for each other even when Mike and El are together. There is this idea that they can't because it will somehow ruin the "purity" of Mike and Will's dynamic and this is so, so problematic. There aren't always clear lines drawn when one relationship ends and another starts. It in no way means that peoples feelings in the second relationship are less legitimate. No relationship is perfect and expecting them to be is unfair and unrealistic. It doesn't make their relationship less serious because Mike was in another one first (I would argue he was with Will first anyway just because he's known him longer).

A label doesn't need to be attached to this dynamic at all. They can just be confused and scared kids who are figuring out how to navigate their feelings. That's all it is. There is no need to judge them for not navigating this perfectly. No one ever does.

[kiirotoao]

Thinking about how Mileven could break up. I don't see how Mike can be the one to do it. Mainly because it has to be done in a way where El isn't the victim of heartbreak, otherwise it makes Mike look really bad to the audience and the audience needs to root for Mike and (Byler's) success. (At least to those who are not already there).

If she's the one to break things off, however, it could make Mike the sympathetic character. As long as he is simultaneously having gay realizations, that way it's not as if he's just choosing Will as a back up plan. (obviously Will isn't but it needs to feel organic and independent from his relationship with El)

Does that mean the break up has to be El driven or just mutual? (Mutual at least seems to have the least amount of breakup "negativity").

The other factor is Mike or El finding out about the painting. But I would argue that if El finds out and decides to leave Mike for the sake of Will happiness.... doesn't that just make her even more the sympathetic party and Mike is the one she loves.

If season 5 Eleven starts to move away from Mike romantically, I guess that wouldn't be an issue anymore

It all depends of how it's written. I want Byler to happen but for me it still needs to be executed well. The multiple time jumps could also help with giving more Byler/Mileven space to play out.

Thats it! Thanks

Thanks for the thoroughly written ask, dear anon! I love having some content to gnaw on 👌

So, yes, the question of how would Mike and El break up. I really hope that it’s mutual and that they both realize that they simply aren’t working romantically.

I find it interesting how you factor in sympathy and perception of Mike and El. In the Steve-Nancy-Jonathan triangle, I think that perception is relevant. Nancy is shamed for bringing Jonathan over. Steve and Nancy are the affluent power couple of Hawkins High, and Jonathan enters from a down-to-earth, poor family. It’s the talk of the entire school when Steve and Nancy get together - everyone knows their names. The thing is that I believe that Nancy has romantic chemistry with Steve as well as Jonathan, so for them, emotional bond and sympathy when breaking up is quite felt since choice and weighing options of relationships is highlighted for their dynamic.

But as for the Will-El-Mike triangle, their status isn’t the focus, it’s their interactions. That’s not to say that Steve, Nancy, and Jonathan’s interactions don’t matter, but as kids, Will, El, and Mike are still much more clearly developing and changing. Their concepts of romance are portrayed to us as much more consequential of each other rather than outside influence. Take Nancy and Steve being influenced by Tommy and Carol. Take Nancy and Jonathan being influenced by Murray. Those types of waves in questioning relationships don’t happen between the kids. The only “outside” influence to muddle Mike and El’s relationship is Hopper who doesn’t or at least didn’t like Mike and made him lie to El, but otherwise, the kids are never under scrutiny or peer pressure to do things to/with the person they like.

What also makes Will, El, and Mike unique from Steve, Nancy, and Jonathan is that all three of the youngsters know each other very well. Mike and Will are best friends. Mike and El are bonded after finding Will together. El and Will became sister and brother. They are not mutually exclusive, they exist in each other’s lives very tightly. Meanwhile, Steve and Jonathan haven’t had a proper conversation (besides arguments) in canon. Ever.

So, yes, I think that a typical sympathetic break up would blur things for Will, El, and Mike, but the thing is that I also don’t think that that’s how the break up will be handled.

At the crux of it all, they both love Will. They both clearly want him to be happy, too, and I think that that starts at acceptance. If Will comes out to the both of them, I think that they’ll be able understand what he means and sweetly realize that their entire situation works out for the better if Mike and El break up. It won’t be as smooth as that, of course - and, actually, I think that this might be the hardest part of the process as Will would probably feel too guilty to ever come out to either of them and risk changing what he has with them let alone expose his lie to Mike - but I think that all the pieces can clearly fall into place as their loves for each other mix and collide.

I know that Will is a point of contention and consideration, and I think that it wouldn’t feel as complete of a break up if Mike and El don’t address him and what he means for their standing relationship. Will did so much for Mike and El in season 4. He tried to push El to tell the truth about the bullying, and he tried to encourage Mike that he was “the heart” and that El needed him. Although neither of those pushes ended up in full, fleshed-out conversations, that’s not on Will. That’s on Mike and El. And the fact that neither of them could deepen their conversations even with Will’s help says a lot to me. But yeah, we’re here leaning on a break up, I know that I’m not here to argue that. The question is how.

I think that Will’s painting needs to be addressed, and once it is, no matter where Will possibly coming out factors into this, El will realize that her brother has a crush on Mike and not a girl, Mike will realize that he’s fallen in love with Will’s affections and thus him, and they’ll both be able to sort out their circumstances. Of course, it’s not that simple, but I think that they’ve come far enough to discern how to handle the difficulties. El needs to know that she’s not the monster first, and Mike needs to know that he’s worth more than being El’s support first. Then their disagreements about their perceptions will come more fully into view, which will lead to a mutual understanding.

I agree that it would be tough if it was one-sided in either direction. Because in order for it to be one-sided and difficult would mean that either of them haven’t fully grappled with who they are.

But if they do understand who they are, it puts many awkward notions at ease. Because if El is for Will’s happiness, she’s also for her own. She doesn’t have to be against herself. She can see how Mike isn’t the one romantically for her and that she can have someone who is openly affectionate, who writes “love” on every letter and note. He doesn’t see her qualities like a partner but as a confidant, and that’s okay. They can still be great together, they can still be close. And if Mike is able to realize his sexuality and point of affection for Will as romantic, it’s not like he suddenly needs to remove El from his life. Hell, El and Will are siblings now, so whoever he’s with, he’s going to have the other there. I think that El is special to Mike; she always will be. She’s the first person that’s given him this opportunity of a lifetime, and I think that he can love her as fondly as ever, just not as a girlfriend anymore.

Their bond as each other’s protectors and safe places will trump their being exes, if you ask me.

So here’s how I dream it to go: Mike and El talk. It’s casual at first, but they’re both still tense after all the tragedy. They talk about how scared/worried they are, how they just don’t seem to hold each other up. Even though they’re both trying, something is off. They like being together, but if this is love, then it doesn’t feel quite right. They both agree. Mike still genuinely thanks her for the painting to which things shift. El doesn’t know about the painting. It was for him? Mike is now flustered. El realizes that Will is in love with Mike. They piece it together aloud, and she asks how Mike feels about him. All it takes is for Mike to convey that he does like Will. He apologizes. He feels horrible, guilty. But El just puts her hand on his. It’s okay. She didn’t realize it, either. The fault isn’t always on one thing, she’s learned. They hug. Something like that.

I want to close this by saying that I agree that it all comes down to how the break up is written, and I think that the writers have all the pieces to make it pretty lovely. Will, El, and Mike all love each other very much, it’s just a matter of sorting out the displaced romance without losing anything other kind of love for each other.

Basically…

Their central bond of unconditional love doesn’t ever need to change, just the status of their flexible relationships.

[wistfulenchantress]

i'm going to talk about el now, because i always talk about mike and he is just a gay loser, meanwhile she's a bamf.

I want to start by saying that in the same way that Mike doesn't actually hold any initial romantic feelings towards El, she doesn't hold any towards him.

Of course, he is the second ever person to show her kindness and she cares about him as such, but beyond that, nothing.

we see her want to be pretty LIKE NANCY, and getting that reassurance from mike. we see her open up to physical contact and learn to trust people, but this does not imply romantic feelings for mike.

she also is just now learning what familial love is from joyce, and what friendship is from dustin and lucas.

then... it gets fucked up (i know lucas and nancy didn't have bad intentions but also i lowkey blame them because elmike is the loml) because mike wheeler is now convinced that he has a crush on this girl

"would you be like my brother?" speaks for itself because she does NOT KNOW what romantic love is.

she doesn't seem to dislike it when mike kisses her, but that doesn't mean she is ready for a romantic relationship that she doesn't understand the implications of. plus, it's not a very romantic kiss. it's messy, and mike doesn't look super pleased afterward

then she sacrifices herself for her friends NOT ROMANTIC, and is missing for ages.

she also believes that mike might turn her in, although she still (obviously) misses the person that housed and fed her after she was trapped in a thunderstorm.

now, her jealousy with max. at this point she has been watching tv with hopper, and has a sense of what a romantic relationship is supposed to look like. she is also pent up and misses her friends, and the concept of interacting with other people.

so she is jealous that max gets to talk to people IN GENERAL, and it's not just about Mike.

when she finds mike, their initial reunion is NOT ROMANTIC OML THEY HUG THATS IT.

then, mike is worried about her because she literally sacrificed herself for him and he seems to have been blaming himself, this is not the point, she thinks that this is the time for a kiss. now, she doesn't know that she likes mike (she doesn't know how to know what she likes at ALL), she just knows that he likes her (allegedly, but i digress). so she tries to kiss him.

they say goodbye, and she goes and does badass motherfucker things and closes the gate.

fast forward to the snow ball. in all of this i am not saying that el doesn't have romantic feelings for mike. she does look happy, truly, in this scene (he doesn't, or less so, but, again, i digress). and at this point the relationship isn't problematic.

but let's fast forward to season three.

el and mike are together constantly, and all they seem to do is kiss. like hopper constantly said, it is UNNATURAL. jancy and lumax both have balanced relationships, but mike and el don't.

el seems to be taking all her cues from mike and 'this works let's just to this' mentality, while mike is taking all of his cues from lucas but also entirely misunderstanding them the entire fucking time

then, when hopper finally puts his foot down, she has to figure out something else to do (this is a good thing, btw)

so she goes to max. she develops a positive relationship with another girl who actually understands romantic relationships, although it is a rather teenage understanding.

"how do i know what i like?"

Max teaches el about being herself and actually making decisions, and is such a positive influence on her. she dumps mike (yes girlboss) (and he doesn't even give a shit but i digress [i love the word digress]). she gets to know max more, and learns about other ways of enjoying life. of course then the mindflayer gets involved and everything goes to shit again.

now, addressing the love confession. i want to note that i think mike and el love each other. but it is NOT romantic.

that is the issue. mike does love her, but when he says it out loud he suddenly perceives it romantically (AND IS LITERALLY HORRIFIED)

i don’t think el can really tell the difference at this point. (note that joyce and hopper are clearly in love, but act just friends, and same with mike and will. meanwhile the wheeler parents aren't in love and are a couple. her and mike's perceptions of love are both kind of weird, but this isn't super relevant)

but she pretends not to hear it.

and i think she takes mikes apology to heart, he follows lucas's advice (essentially a script) well, although he physically can't say the word love.

now, her love confession at the end. remember that they've been in Lenora, so she's had some time to think. she is also struggling with the loss of her father and her powers (how she has defined her worth. partially because of mike.)

she almost doesn't do it. they are seemingly just friends at this point, nothing has established them as together until her "i love you, too."

she doesn't seem to bothered by the fact that he doesn't say it, or kiss her back, or close his eyes, although it may be something that she internalizes - JUST LIKE THE FROM MIKE STUFF

i think that, despite the 'from mike' thing, it is easy to romanticize mike when she is so far away from him. we see this through her little shrine in her room.

we see her start to come into herself, despite the bullying, loss of hopper, max, and her other friends, and moving, and lack of powers. she tries to find her own identity.

but the other point about her romanization of mike. it is based in lies. she is lying to him about her friendships, and being popular, and all of it.

we see her illusions, the happy little move romance she has been trying to maintain, collapse throughout the beginning of mike's visit. the bullying from angela, the lack of support and fear from mike, and, of course, 'who said that i didn't'

now, i could talk for ages about the things that drive her back to the lab, but i want to keep the focus on the romance right now bc that is what this specific post is about.

when she reunites with mike, it is not romantic. she greets will and jonathan with even more emotion and relief.

now, the pizza scene. mike has his comedian guise on, and is trying to cheer her up. and it seems to be working.

here is where i am torn. mike is NOT about to say i love you, he just isn't. i think he would've tried to break up with her, but that's not the point. i think that you can interpret HER as still expecting a love confession OR ready for a breakup.

i'm not sure what the intention it, but art is in the eye of the beholder and i think it can be seen either way.

of course, argyle interrupts and they are all having fun again (sort of)

now, she is trying to save max. and i want to emphasize that it is seeing max being hurt by vecna that pushes her to fight (go watch the scene if you don't believe me)

she generally looks sort of miserable throughout mikes confession. and she doesn't run to his arms, later. she is distancing herself from him. ALLEGEDLY. so, she does not think that this fixed their relationship, and isn't happy.

[ilikegirls-101]

I’m a firm believer that El will be the one who breaks up w mike in s5

ISTG DUDE I ALWAYS SEE MILEVENS SAY “mike isn’t gonna break up with el just for Will” OR “el isn’t gonna sacrifice herself for a mlm relationship” which is just dumb

Like duh ofc they’re not doing that. Like firstly, if either of them break up it’s not going to be because of Will i think (at least not for mike, cause I feel like for him it would have some relation but it wouldn’t be his sole reason) but mike wouldn’t break up with El just for Will, el would break up with mike just so the two of them got together. Also that’d just be BAD story telling

*also tiny lil note: when I say “it’d” I mean “it would” idk some ppl don’t get it when I text like that, also I’m not sure if it’s a real grammar thing soo ye, it’s just easier than saying the whole thing. So just letting ya know. Also another thing: this post was made cuz of right here*

If El broke up with Mike:

El would break up with mike because she realizes that they’re relationship is somewhat toxic and one-sided. She’d do it for herself CUZ MISS GIRL WILL BE INDEPENDENT 😆 but seriously, she would have this self growth yk? Like she’d have a montage of finding herself(like in season 3 kinda) finding her interests, hobbies, etc. she’d learn that she isn’t a monster or just a super hero. She’d learn that she’s just Eleven. And that’d be so good for her. She would learn that she doesn’t need a boyfriend to be deemed “normal” or something. She’d learn that she’s not a freak. She’d learn that she’s more than her powers. She’d be quite literally an independent woman™, not needing a man. (Honestly she never needed one before either🤷🏽‍♀️) that’s her arc for s5 (as well as the defeat of vecna duh💀). While all that’s happening, Mike n Will are gonna have their relationship act. Yk the whole sh-bang. their internal conflict within themselves(Will’s self hate, Mike’s self discovery), the social conflict with society/friends/family(homophobia, approval or denial), the conflict they have with each other(mike n will’s friendship, their romantic love for each other, their miscommunication) that’s Mike’s(and Will’s) arcs for s5. (As well as whatever happens outside of their relationship duh).

If Mike broke up with El:

Mike would break with el because he’d realize “woah I don’t love her like she needs me to” (I do believe he loves her, but not in a romantic sense tho). It’d go like this: him realizing he doesn’t have those feelings for her, or for any woman, then he’d learn to accept that and then he’d break up w her. He’d keep learning abt himself and his sexuality. I do think eventually he would acknowledge his feelings for Will and then the whole sh-bang will start 😝 I mean honestly it’s not much different from if El broke up with him. Maybe the perspectives would change or something, idk I’m not the duffers 🤷🏽‍♀️😭 but el maybe would still have epiphany of “I’m actually a human person”

ACTUALLY WE WOULD BE SHOWN THE STUFF HAPPENING BACKWARDS. Like if El broke up with him, we’d see her character development first then his. But if Mike broke up first, we’d see his character development first. If mike broke up first it’d be: break up, then Mike’s first phase of his character development, then El’s first phase, then Mike’s, then El’s, etc.

Or if El broke up first it’d be: break up, then El’s first phase of her character development, then mike’s first phase, then El’s, then Mike’s, etc.

Ofc it’s not gonna be like that all the time, I mean u gotta have cuts in between it happening. Like in s4 the Cali gang were having their story development while El’s was going on so kinda like that I think. Kinda like it’s always been in this show🤷🏽‍♀️ atp I’m just yapping BUT YEA I think I’m going in circles and not making sense at all but in my defense is 1:27 am and I couldn’t stop thinking abt Byler and El soooooo ye

Conclusion: I hope El breaks up with him first cuz girl power and I just love her

A LOT

and this post is kinda pointless ngl😭 but it’s late and I’m tired so it’s fine

What a beautiful girl 😭❤️

[will80sbyers]

I would like to believe in romantic Byler because in general I find them cute together and then you guys are all so nice and always do some gorgeous analysis unlike Milevens who are always bad...I am a Mileven too but I have nothing to do with them, indeed I’m also friends of some Bylers.

Anyway I was saying that I would like to believe in Byler, but every time the two have a conversation there is always El involved.

In the crazy together scene? They talk about El

In the rain scene? They talk about El

In the fight in Cali? They talk about El

In the van? They talk about El

In the final scene on the sofa? They talk about El

They’ve never had a conversation just themselves, there’s always her in the middle...

That’s my only doubt, and that’s why I think Mileven is endgame.

Bestie it's a love triangle, of course El is involved in the conversation because Mike did have a crush on her when he was little and wanted to talk about her, but not only do they have multiple moments just about them like in S2 when Will opens up about the possession and Mike supports him and we have the touch of the hand zoomed in... or the monologue mike does at the end of the season when he's talking about the start of the relationship and multiple other small moments

but also the point of the conversations they have is never only about El, it's also showing their strong emotional connection to the viewers, it's always about Will and Mike supporting each other in their journey, Will opens up to Mike and Mike gives him courage and understanding and Will does the same thing with Mike when he feels insecure and Will always makes him feel better about himself or brings him back to himself and makes him a better person like for the rain fight for example

I think you should rewatch all of these scenes, pay attention to when the conversation is about them and see just how much strength they give to each other and how they make the other feel safe!

When El and Mike talk that never happens for them, it's pretty much always superficial stuff or ugly conversations and they aren't really shown to have a strong connection emotionally since season 1 in my opinion, the really emotionally open moments they had are all from s1 and after that the writers just don't give them true bonding moments, that's why the love confession sounds insincere to most people even if I believe Mike meant what he said platonically and that they do have love for the other person, it doesn't sound sincere because the writers didn't gave them moments of emotional connection that make us believe the romantic side of it... And this is because the writers are building up byler endgame so they can't do that to the other couple involved in the love triangle

Mike doesn't know the true intensity of his love for Will yet so they can't show more than their bond growing and make them have a base to make it so that it's believable in the finale that Mike realizes "oh shit... I love him"

It's super normal and diffused in love triangle situations in media and books that the person A that's dating B talks about his problems with B with person C that is in love with A and A doesn't know it and then A realizes that C is their true love... It happens literally all the time 🫶

[runninguplenorahills]

Another smaller rant incoming as addition to my rant from a couple of days ago:

Another thing that annoys me so much is when people project their distorted perception of Mike onto all the other characters! This is genuinely such a frustrating thing because some of you act like Dustin, Lucas, Max and El think little of Mike while the exact opposite is true!

Have you seen how happy Dustin was when Mike told him in s1 that he’s his best friend too? And Dustin tells Will, Lucas and Mike that scoops troop could’ve really used their help in s3! Lucas is jealous in s1 that Mike is averting his attention to El and not to him, and while he doesn’t trust Mike with his plan about including El at first, he comes to trust him later on and from then on trusts him with all his plans (setting the tunnels on fire, sauna test etc.). Max is literally trying throughout all of s2 to get Mike’s approval and that one time she impressed Mike with her skateboard literally made it into her most cherished memories! If we just take a slightly deeper look into the scene of El’s and Mike’s fight in s4 we see that El is afraid of losing Mike and it being her fault! It’s like, exactly how Mike feels. El thinks she drove Mike away because he finally saw “the monster” in her! Yes, El and Mike have never loved each other romantically but they still love each other platonically! All of the party members love Mike so much and it’s ridiculous to claim otherwise! They all know that he’s amazing, capable, intelligent and an awesome leader which is why they listen to him!! And I’m telling you, while none of the others would’ve drawn a heart on Mike’s shield, they all would’ve depicted him as a knight with a sword, leading the party, nonetheless!! Because that is who Mike is and his friends see him as exactly that!!! And NO! The party’s dynamic is not making fun of Mike affectionately!! In s3 Lucas was specifically making fun of Mike abandoning them for El but overall no one ridicules or undermines Mike for fun! That is not their dynamic and it never has been!

I’ve had enough of all of these incredibly bad takes about the party telling Will that he could do better than Mike!! I’ve had enough of people pretending like the party sees Mike as a loser and an idiot! That is literally the complete opposite of how they actually see him! And Dustin, Lucas, Max and El would be the first people to tell Will that he’s lucky to have Mike!! And Jonathan would tell him that too!!!

This bizarre fanon version of Mike Wheeler that lives in some of your minds is NOT CANON!!!!! None of the characters would even only think about describing Mike as a loser! They all know how great he is and they appreciate and love him so so so so much!! And I’m so done with people saying otherwise.

[risisthis]

Why were California and Russia plots so important

I’ve seen a lot of people complaining last summer about how the Russia and California plots were unnecessary and just a waste of time. I’m here to dive in into the brain of the duffers and tell you exactly why they did this and why it was the exact opposite.

I have 3 main points to make:

1. Developing Vecna’s background

The duffers are smart and probably already had the idea about what s4 and 5 are gonna be about while writing s3 and maybe even earlier. So put yourself in their shoes, they want to introduce this big bad that will end up being the mastermind behind everything and they need time to introduce him properly.

Now imagine this: Will, El, Joyce and Hopper are in Hawkins and the planned story for s5 would have to immediately get into motion. What’s the story? Due to the play, we can guess that Joyce and Hopper knew Henry. The dots would be connected much sooner, leaving no time for us to have a question mark over our heads trying to figure out how the Creels play into all of this.

Another thing is our dear William Byers. We know he’ll be very important in s5 and there is no way Joyce knowing Henry wasn’t connected to his s1 disappearance. Will is connected to Henry, if he were in Hawkins, this plot would start immediately. We’d have to find out more about the connection sooner, Will would again be put through supernatural hell and we’d most likely be introduced to him struggling with his sexuality through vecna which i would hate. Like this we at least got a glimpse into Will already figuring it out on his own and even accepting it.

If El hadn't lost her powers and stayed in Hawkins, she would immediately locate vecna and he would probably remind her of everything that happened… and there goes all of your time to introduce Vecna slowly with a mysterious effect to him, we’d have the same characters in supernatural mess as always and no time for sadie sink to shine. Which brings me to my second point

2. Focus on other characters

What does this mean? For example, Will is an important character who was sidelined for a while, but we know he will return to the center stage next season. In season 4, we saw that he had grown more confident, likely due to a more open-minded environment. The smaller plot that he had will become more significant in season 5.

Mike usually leads the party, but in season 4 he didn’t which led him to voice some of his insecurities. However, when was the last time something significant happened to him? I believe it will in season 5.

But, what about other characters? If we assume that Will, El, Mike, Joyce, Hopper (and probably Nancy and Jonathan) will be the main focus in the next season, when will there be time for the rest? That's why season 4 was important - it gave the Hawkins crew more focus and developed their final stories, so they only need to be finished and given proper closure. If our Cali and Russia crew were in Hawkins, there wouldn't be enough time for other characters because they would be the ones in the middle of a supernatural mess.

3. The relationships

Russia and Cali had a common theme going on when it comes to relationships. Both jopper and byler (no matter if platonic or romantic) experienced having to spend time without the other person to realize how important the relationship is to them.

Mileven struggled with issues that they didn’t even know they had before. It doesn’t matter whether mileven or byler will be endgame, we know that Mike deeply cares about both of them, and the distance definitely made him realize a lot of new things about his relationships with those two.

Jopper was on the verge of getting together last season, but his “death” made them realize there is definitely no time to waste and made their feelings for each other perfectly clear.

Conclusion

Relocating characters was important to make space for forming a background for a probably packed plot that is coming next season. If they hadn't done that, season 4 would most likely be the last season, and it would feel incredibly rushed (they even originally planned to have only 4 seasons). This gave them an opportunity to focus more on the characters and their relationships, and paved a path they're about to follow to their final closure.

Although there's still a lot of stuff left open, particularly with relationships, I feel like most of their problems can be solved with one big and important conversation. Season 5 was definitely tricky to write because there's so much going on, but if you think about it, we already know the big bad and quite a lot behind his motives, giving us 7-10 hours to give the show a proper ending without spending at least 2 hours introducing a new villain or characters. That's precisely why the way season 4 was written was extremely important.

[gayofthefae]

"El should have had a response to the speech so we know how she feels about it!" No. El should have had a response to the speech so Mike knows she loves him. Really loves him. We heard what he said in that van. We heard what he said to her. When she says it, he doesn't fully believe it. In a Milkvan endgame world, Mike has told us that he believes he loves El more than El loves him and that is going to get him hurt.

That isn't just the resolution to El's feelings in 4x03. It's a recreation of them. El told Mike she didn't feel like enough, now he's telling her she is. But in it, he's telling her he doesn't feel like enough. If they really wanted this romance to resolve everyone's issues, she would have told him he is. At some point, find a time. Or make the speech be in a point it can be a dialogue in the first place. Yes, we're curious what she thinks, but even if she's simply happy and nothing else, he still needs it. He deserves it.

He deserves the van speech. Straight from her mouth. And I guess that's what it is. The only reason it works that he doesn't get it from her is that while before, he was saying he didn't feel like enough. Now, he's saying "I want you to know I didn't tell you because I didn't feel like enough. But Will told me that wasn't true so now I know better and can tell you this." Yeah, super romantic. Bring up your other love interest in your speech, that's not threatening to your girlfriend at all. He doesn't actually do that, obviously, but that is the meaning behind the words and why it (sort of) resolves for us.

Mike feels feels like enough now. But El had nothing to do with it. My point stands. Poor El she's so sad about Mike and he needs to fix it. But we were so focused on that, we forgot: Mike is sad about El too. And she needs to fix it. He did his part, she didn't do hers. In her defense, it was solved before she got there, which that being possible is another rant I kinda just gave and will also be cutting the rest of off for another time.

They said "El deserves to feel loved by Mike" and had Mike love her. Then they said "Mike deserves to feel loved" and left it there. It does not matter that it was fulfilled by El indirectly. Will fixed it. Whatever you say, if you lie to your friend to comfort them, so long as it works, you still fixed it. If my friend says he's scared his girlfriend doesn't love him enough and I say "yes she does she told me firsthand" I'll send him off smiling and someone saying "wow it's so nice of his girlfriend to cheer him up" is fuckin rude tbh.

Mike deserved love too. El's could only be fulfilled by Mike or herself. They pretended the second one wasn't true so for the purposes of this post, we will too, and in that case, Mike fulfilled it for her. But more importantly, no one else did. No outside person but Mike at that tie could have fulfilled that for her. Or maybe they could, but they made sure to not let us ever know for sure. They told us for sure with Mike. All these romantic moments with El are actually just further inherent proof of his relationship with Will. What Will did worked. That is a bad. sign. He succeeded in getting Mike to tell El he loves her, yes, but break it down and you get: Mike needed to feel like enough to tell El. El did not succeed in that, Will did. AND more importantly, that was enough.

That being enough tells us it did not have to be El. El deserves to be loved by Mike. Mike deserves to be loved. That's what they said. El deserves better than Mike but Mike deserves better than El too. That's why they literally already did, and actually had to for the plot to work, give him better.

Yeah. Mike and El and receiving the solutions they need to the sadness over each other from other people before each other gets to it and being completely fulfilled and able to move on without the other just fine now.

[henrysglock]

honestly, it's like ppl forget that they are all teenagers (who aren't always emotionaly stable anyways) who have tons of trauma, and no safe space to deal with it, especially in the context of the show settings...plus government nda's and shit. Like, give Mike and el a break, they're kids who love each other and care for each other undeniably, but love and care don't have to mean romantic relationships, el just got a flavour of life and what she needs is love and support, not to be in a relationship !!!

Exactly, Nonnie! They're both screwing up for different reasons, there's no malice in it. It's just a whirlwind of mistakes and trying to live up to other people's expectations/wanting to be loved/fearing abandonment. They're literally 14-15 years old, and all of them have Been Through It.

El was like 2 days out of the lab, chock-full of dissociative amnesia and abuse trauma, and everyone expects her to Be Normal Immediately??? No fucking way. She's been through the wringer and she's experiencing Everything All At Once for the first time in her life. In her first year or so outside the lab, she's kept in Hopper's cabin the whole time. She goes from one form of isolation to another. Zero added socialization outside of a relatively crappy father figure (sorry Hopper stans...he's just not stellar). Even by ST3, she still doesn't know who she is or what she likes outside Mike and Hopper and their expectations of her. She didn't even really grasp the concept of doing what she likes, that she's allowed to have likes and dislikes outside what other people dictate to her. So to expect her to be able to cope in ST4 is insane to me. She's had exactly six months of socialization, and even then she was thrown into it with next to no support. The American public school system is a joke when it comes to student support, Joyce was busy with work, Jonathan was absent...it was just Will. Will was her only lifeline, and she's trying so hard to be normal, be liked, be what she thinks Mike wants her to be, what she thinks she should be...and she has no idea how to make that a reality without lying. WHICH MAKES PERFECT SENSE. Of course she lied! Everything is falling apart because she has a limited support network as ususal, and while yes that did make her a bad sister to Will/bad girlfriend to Mike...She's doing the best she can with what she has.

It's absolutely insane to me how well she's doing based on her circumstances. She's done incredibly well, coping with discovering that the outside world exists and being dropped into society like a baby into the ocean. So no, Mike doesn't get it. Mike can't get it, and that's not his fault. Was it insensitive of El to shut him down like that in ST4? Yes. Was she wrong? No. She also has like 2 years TOTAL of social skills to work with, so let's cut her a break. Was it insensitive for El to exclude Will at the airport? Yes. Does it have a logical explanation? Yes. If El can control the day/keep Mike to herself, she can keep her lies from being exposed. She can still be the popular, normal girlfriend she's been roleplaying as since she left Hawkins. Let's cut her a break.

Does that negate how Will and Mike feel? No. They're entitled to their hurt. It was hurtful. It was also a mashup of coping mechanisms, lack of support, and unwitting ignorance. El is a "bad" sister and a "bad" girlfriend because she doesn't know how to be a good one.

It's not malice, it's mistakes. I'll die on this hill.

And Mike/Will? They're just teenagers trying to figure their shit out. Everyone makes mistakes at that age. Everyone acts a little like an asshole. Mike is dealing with so much social fear, trauma, insecurities, depression, and queerness in the 80's on top of it. Will is dealing with all that...plus trying to support El. They're going to fuck up! Not only are they just kids, they're also in a multitude of impossible situations.

Cut them a break.

[findafight]

It is tiring to be regarded as a 'homophobe' when you claim to not like a queer ship or say you do not think a queer ship is going to be canon & should not go canon. ST fandom has this type of fans especially Bylers and recently Ronancers. Sorry that I do not think Byler has a chance of being wrapped up in a nice way when the writers actively refused to even breakup Mileven in this season and intentionally added a confession scene on the show from Mike to El. We literally have 1 season left with everything else going on in a limited time frame but I am expected to be okay with the possible resolution of this whole thing, and should expect a nice wrap up where we supposedly will see Mileven break up, Mike and El moving on from each other, there will be a time for them to adjust to that, for Mike to consider dating Will HECK even for Will to consider confessing and dating Mike, for the writers to make that all believable to the audience in a nice way within the narrative.... and I am expected to like Ronance when Stobin is one of the most important platonic relationships on the show and we canonically know Nancy and Steve's break up was bad, and that Steve still has feelings for Nancy. I want to see representation, I really do but it feels like the fandom itself is bending any logic and sensibility to make a ship seem reasonable and make sense within the narrative... when it really does not.

God. Yeah. Like sure queer people can have internalized homophobia or intra community basis (like bi/a/trans phobia) etc but to say someone's a bigot just because they don't like the a fictional ship, or even that they just don't think it will be canon, is just silly and causing problems on purpose.

The intense blr shippers have really turned me off the ship, honestly. I have a few asks from them saved as drafts just to get them out of my inbox, and they're saying the same as others "we're fighting homophobia" "you're just as bad as people saying why don't we shut up about blr and ship mlvn if you don't think this has been part of a grand and epic master plan for the greatest romance ever" as well as just not understanding what the very specific phenomena of queerbaiting is, all telling me I don't belong in the ship because I don't ship it correctly. So. Makes me feel bad and really disappointed. People who ship mlvn (which my original post was also tagged, because it discusses them too) DIDNT come to my inbox and call me names or a fake shipper when I said I thought they should break up. Make of that what you will.

As much as Will and Mike getting together would mean to people, putting that much emotional weight and expectation and emphasis on a single aspect of a show, a single ship, is not healthy. It also, if it does happen, will not be the epic romance planned from the start they think it is. (We remember tjlc, right?? RIGHT??) If it happens it will possibly be slap dash and rushed, because you're right. There's a lot happening, the show struggles with ending/starting romances, and they are NOT the only characters that matter. The breathing room required for both Mike and El AND the audience to make the breakup feel real and that enough time has passed to not make Mike look like an asshole for immediately dating his ex's brother (and for Will not to look like an ass for dating his sister's ex?!?) Is now insufficient given how short the seasons are, and as you said, they should've broken up in S4 to pull that off.

And then the fandom would likely feel a bit cheated after building it up so much in their heads, only for it to be a bit of a flop. But I guess a lot of people don't mind how Nancy and Jonathan got together, so with the way some of the people in my inbox were talking about El then it could be like that too. Just. Not giving a shit if someone, a character I personally love, was really hurt and betrayed by her recently ex boyfriend and her BROTHER.

Pretending it was all fine because romantic love is the most important thing ever to them I guess. When it's not, especially in the show! Non romantic bonds are so important to these characters! It would just ruin it for me, because what I was originally saying was that Will, Mike, and El all mean so much to each other and actively try to not hurt one another (even if the do accidentally or end up hurting themselves) and that, because Will and El are siblings now, Will might think twice about dating Mike so soon after he broke up with El. It would make them look cold hearted and selfish tbh. That's why a good ending would be Will feeling comfortable enough to come out, and being accepted by his friends. (All of them not just Mike) and that final emphasis on the Party as a whole rather than individual Romo relationships.

It's actually very important to consider other people's feelings in everyday life, I think. Sure, ultimately they shouldn't dictate all your actions, but there will be consequences for some of them. They can lose friendships, or other relationships. It can also make a character look REALLY BAD.

For rnce, people go on about how Robin absolutely does not need to consider Steve's feelings in pursuing a girl. (Ignoring other issues people have with the ship that have nothing to do with Steve, lol) And sure. Okay. For every girl but the one that broke his heart, cheated on him, and who he still has feelings for that Robin herself encouraged. People are out here saying they could be endgame without completely ruining stobin's friendship like huh??? Do they understand Robin "what if we just combined" Buckley? Do they not care about the most important relationship in her life? Do they not care about her beyond how she can hype up Nancy instead of one of those icky boys?

A problem I have with rnce is that a lot of the writing saying it could be canon (which, lbr, it won't be. While I think blr may be canon just in a kind of disappointing way, I don't think there's any chance of rnce happening, especially with Vickie right there blushing and flirting with Robin) only focuses on how it would be good for Nancy, or if it's trying to make it seem good for Robin ignores their personalities and other relationships. Like Nancy isn't annoyed by Robin until Robin's speech gets them into Penherst, or that Nancy wasn't dismissive of Robin's ideas, and Robin wasn't clearly nervous and apologizing for being annoying in order to get Nancy to like her (tbh I think Nancy should have been the one pursuing a friendship with Robin instead of the other way around but alas). Tbh I could go on about how Nancy and her relationships and her needs/wants inside those are often misdirected? Misidentified? By fandom, and how that feeds into Robin being reduced to someone who supports Nancy (which, if people complain about Robin considering her bffs feelings about her dating someone, shouldn't they complain about her becoming a glorified cheerleader for Nancy...oh. it's because it's romantic. And some parts of this fandom value that most.) In rnce, which strips Robin of her personality and makes it boring. But this is already long haha (Not to mention it'd be super weird for Nancy to be dating her ex she cheated on and never actually told she cheated on him's best friend. Awkward!!)

I used to not mind rnce that much, tbh. I didn't get it and did think it was weird but the art was cute! And now it's sort of an alarm bells for people being weird about stobin.

Steve and Robin's relationship, like so many platonic relationships but more glaring with just how obsessed with each other they are, is often devalued by the fandom by virtue of the idea that a romantic partner needs/should be someone's number 1. Even though those two want to combine, and are seen taking active roles in trying to get them a romantic relationship, and are really the first person the other felt they could be completely themself around. They're the most important person to the other, regardless of their romantic relationship status.