#bc a good cass writer can be like 'she sees herself in jason specifically and she's angry and upset by the way he chose to go+

[cleromancy]

one of the things i find most compelling about jason and cass as a concept is. like. you cannot convince me they wouldn't both *like* each other, as people. in any non-capes au i absolutely think they would and should be friends, or at least have the potential to *become* friends.

but they have irreconcilable moral differences, and even in story concepts where jason stops playing Pinocchio and decides to be a real boy again and as such starts trying to actually act in line with his morals--they are fundamentally never going to agree. to jason there is a line people cross and stop being people. that is absolutely anathema to everything cass has ever believed in, or will ever believe in.

and there's a lot of untapped potential for tragedy there because of that. jason looking at the shit hes done he never expected to have to *live with*, and realizing he's not dying again anytime soon. and i always say this but *my* preference is to take him from that to an antihero direction-- but i see a lot of potential in him at that point, lost and alone and so desperately lonely, committing *fully* to the villain schtick, or at least as much as jason ever really commits to any schtick.

but i also actually think theres even more potential where theyre both fully committed to their beliefs and they have that fundamental disagreement. they both want to do good. they will never agree on what that means. you know?

[autisticcassandracain]

ok disclaimer I’m new here and it’s completely possible that I missed some comic that refutes all I’m saying here but like. I just really cannot get over how bad of an identity Black Bat is. I just CANNOT get over it.

It’s not that I hate the idea of Cass moving on from the Batgirl mantle and going solo or anything, far from it! I think legacy mantles like Batgirl are (generally) made to be passed on, and I think that Cass realizing that she doesn’t need it anymore and is ready to strike out and create her own identity could be a really meaningful arc. It’s just. That the way that was done in canon is. Not It. I’m not gonna get into that because that’s a whole different rant I feel even less qualified to make but it sure doesn’t help me like the Black Bat identity for her.

but even separately from the way she acquired it, the Black Bat identity is bland and says little to nothing about Cass. Like, let’s do a rundown of the other major solo batfam identities (minus Red Robin bc I know precisely nothing about Tim): 

Nightwing: as stated by Dick himself in The New Teen Titans: “What’s strange is that both name and costume are based on other people... both mentors... and friends.” Nightwing is a merging of all the people who have made Dick into who he is, most prominently Batman, who trained him and helped him get the skills he needed, and Superman, who gave him his name. While he costume has changed over the years, it’s maintained a sleek, skin-tight look that’s perfect for doing acrobatics in, which is Dick’s signature. 

Oracle: created when writers tried to fridge her and the Joker shot her, Oracle is one of the few disabled superheroes and is a perfect fit for it. ‘Oracle’ as a name immediately conjures up associations with oracles from ancient Greek myth, so it works extremely well with Oracle’s focus on technology, both in the sense that it subverts the expected aesthetic, and that it accurately describes her role as mastermind and information gatherer. It shows off Barbara’s smarts and ingenuity.

Red Hood: was created after Jason came back from the dead and decided to cause problems on purpose, and it shows. Jason took a former alias of his murderer and made it his own, both reclaiming his trauma and signaling his change from morally good to morally gray/bad (depending on writer/interpretation). His main weapon is guns, specifically chosen to signal his opposition to what Batman stands for.

Spoiler: created in opposition to Stephanie’s supervillain dad, Cluemaster. The name ‘Spoiler’ makes a lot of sense when you remember its origins in ‘spoiling’ her father’s plans, and stands out for that reason. Her costume is maximized to preserve her identity, which again, ties back to her origins. 

Signal: a name that ties back to Duke’s mother’s saying that the morning is the best time to see things clearly. As Duke said in Batman & The Signal: “She considered herself the first knight on the battlefield (...) and another word for the first knight out there is... ‘Signal’.” Duke has a unique place in the batfamily as both the first meta and the first daytime hero, and everything about his solo identity reflects that, from the name tying back to the morning light to the bright yellow in his costume. 

As you can see, all of these identities tie back to at least some aspect of the character they’re embodied by. They tell us something about their goals for their superhero persona, about the character’s personality and/or backstory, etc. Even in the event that Red Robin is a garbage identity (which tbh just going by the name I think it very well might be but again, I know nothing about Tim), that still leaves the vast majority of solo identities saying something about the person who created them.

But Black Bat? What does that tell me about Cass? Her costume design isn’t bad, but it’s pretty standard and not extremely unique (except for her cool cape, I’ll give it that). All the name tells me is that 1) she’s kinda edgy, maybe and 2) she’s part of the batfamily. That’s it. That’s literally all it does. 

Black Bat is very obviously an identity that wasn’t the result of someone sitting down and honestly thinking what solo identity would fit Cass the best; it’s the result of someone haphazardly slapping a solo identity onto Cass so that Stephanie could be Batgirl. 

so yeah TL;DR I think Black Bat is a bad identity because it’s generic and tells you little to nothing about Cass. 

[ectonurites]

I need to read Cassandra’s Batgirl run so I can actually get a feel for what her personality is, bc in fic she tends to get boiled down to “quiet badass who can’t be beaten, super nice to everyone, polite, everyone’s favorite sibling/daughter, on good terms with everyone, human mood ring, great grasp of human psychology, can do no wrong” and I haven’t read much with her in it but like a majority of that feels fake, like I recognize some of those traits from the way that a lot of women across fandoms get portrayed by fic writers and just end up watered down

Yeaaah I still have some of her Batgirl run left to finish (i’ve read pretty much all of it but just very out of order as I was reading other comics/trying to find answers to specific questions etc spread over the last few years, on my more recent ‘all of it in order’ read-through i’m more than halfway through now tho fhjghk I keep meaning to go back and actually finish it) but yeah she’s definitely got a personality that gets watered down in a lot of works. 

I really hate the ‘can do no wrong’ thing perpetuated with her especially because she’s not just like... perfect. Part of her whole thing is that she wants to be perfect and can hold herself to crazy standards.

(Batgirl (2000) #9)

Treating her like she already is this perfect angel with nothing else to her is just so dishonest to her as a character and bugs the shit out of me. Cass is super interesting and she really does just get used more as a prop in a lot of things I see rather than getting explored as much on her own, like, I know there’s definitely good Cass fan content out there but compared to the batboys it just feels like there’s way less. And alterations made to her character in canon since she was reintroduced after the reboot definitely didn’t help.

Anyways just... Cass can be silly and snarky, she’s not just perfectly polite and all the time!

(Batgirl (2000) #39)

And the thing about her being everyone’s favorite sibling is also kinda wild to me tbh bc like... Her and Tim are canonically really close as siblings (but it took a long time to get there!) and then since reboot stuff she seems close with Duke too, but otherwise like... She had a pretty tense relationship with Dick sometimes, her and Jason literally never met pre-reboot and post-reboot have only interacted at Full Family Gatherings, and her and Damian haven’t interacted much either post-reboot and pre-reboot only interacted in Gates of Gotham where like he openly said he didn’t get the hype about her gfdhgfj 

(Gates of Gotham #2)

I’m still not a Cass expert the same way I am with some other batfam members but finishing more of her stuff so that I can be is definitely high on my reading priority list, because I really enjoy her as a character. 

[ectonurites]

for the character headcannons ask game, jason and cass?

ALRIGHT ALRIGHT im putting this one under a cut because it got SUPER long bc i cant shut up ever

lets start w jason

A (realistic headcanon): 

ok using the ‘realistic’ category here loosely but GOD i love the idea of Damian & Jason having interacted while Jason was staying with the League before getting dunked in the Lazarus Pit. like. this obviously would need to be set more in preboot and following the Lost Days & Batman Annual 25 version of Jason’s resurrection, but god the idea of it just makes me scream in a good way. Like... these are things Jason likely doesn’t remember very clearly once he’s brought back to life more fully by the pit because he was uh pretty catatonic, but Damian being a little kid and knowing about the boy that his mother keeps around the base, that she’s trying to help bring back to health. Damian not even knowing that’s his big brother, just that he’s a presence that shares his mother’s attention. Jason again being unresponsive but like, ok god you know that part of lost days where Talia shows the others observing him that he only fights back at those he perceives as genuine threats trying to hurt him, 

Because Jason can perceive that she’s safe, she’s not actually trying to hurt him, he trusts her because she saved him? thinking about lil child Damian who is ya know already being trained in fighting stuff and like the idea of him trying to provoke Jason just to see what happens but Jason not fighting back because on some level be it his connection to Talia or even little baby Damian visually reminding him of Bruce, he knows that Damian is safe too 🥺 

and then when Jason and Damian meet again in Gotham as Red Hood & Robin respectively, Jason not really remembering because there was so much going on back then for him, but Damian realizing that oh... that was Him

B (hilarious): 

alright so if we are looking at comics currently, in modern stuff jason is what, like 22? hes old enough to drink in the US but still definitely early 20s so around my around my age, thats what im using as a basis here. if we adjust timeline and still consider his death having happened when he was 15, that puts it around 2013. and then coming back to like interacting with people about three years later if we still kinda base things off of the preboot timeframe (since we never got a super solid retelling of the timeline of death -> resurrection -> training -> tries to get revenge aside from knowing he went to the all-caste instead of the lost days version of the story) making him reenter the regular world and stuff around age 18 in 2016. meaning a solid three years of pop culture that he was entirely missing, and like im sorry but he really doesn’t strike me as the type to bother looking into what he missed, he’s kinda busy focusing on other stuff. lets take a quick look at some major things from those years. 2013 gave us ‘what does the fox say’ and ‘the harlem shake’ . 2014 had that time U2 just put a fuckin album on everyone’s phones, The Fault In Our Stars movie came out. 2015 introduced the phrase ‘Netflix and Chill’ and the whole blue & black vs gold & white dress debate happened. imagine any of the other batkids (or even arguably roy during rhato stuff) bringing these things up and jason’s ensuing confusion. thank you for your time

C (heart-crushing): 

so. there are two specific instances from rebirth era Jason i want to bring up here and much like a lot of these it’s less a headcanon and more of an inference based on observations, but i wanna take a sec to discuss Jason’s relationship with other people’s death. early in rebirth, Tim ‘dies’ from that whole thing in detective comics. he didn’t actually die, we as readers know, but in-universe they all very much so thought he was dead. frustratingly a lot of the batfam wasn’t really shown mourning him aside from in the Detective Comics Rebirth title itself (which just. when a major character dies even if its temporary- that should have a ripple effect) BUT an exception to that is in RHATO 2016, where we get this offhanded comment in Jason’s internal monologuing

similarly later when Roy, who like, had an incredibly close relationship w Jason that had just gotten mended before Heroes in Crisis, gets fuckin murdered in that whole thing... Jason doesn’t go to his funeral either. He leaves a dramatic voice mail and then visits the grave on his own later, choosing to instead keep working on the mission they’d started rather than going and taking the time to mourn properly.

Jason’s relationship with death is incredibly complicated, obviously. He has died, he has come back, and he now is willing to cross the line most other bats won’t and will kill people when he deems it necessary. I think thats something important though- he doesn’t just like... go around killing for fun (usually, some writers preboot made him a little murder happy but even then usually this still was vaguely followed) he kills people he thinks deserved it. Like, even looking back at the mess of Morrison’s Jason during Batman & Robin 2009, Jason was still trying to bring a sense of justice with who he was killing (”punishment that fits the crime”), it wasn’t killing for the sake of killing. He sees things in this kind of almost black and white ‘people who deserve it’ and ‘people who don’t’ way, and he has no problem dealing with death when it’s with the people he thinks deserve it. 

but when someone who doesn’t in his mind ‘deserve it’ gets killed? i think he just goes into total avoidance mode. throws himself into other things he’s doing, tries not to dwell on it too much no matter how much he still thinks about it (this is especially evident in him consistently telling people “i’m fine!” after what happened to Roy, despite bringing Roy up literally like every few issues for a WHILE after he died and very clearly still struggling with it, Artemis is the only one who gets through to him on it a little bit) 

but yeah, I just think that from Jason’s relatively unique situation of having been murdered, he knows what it’s like and he is perfectly fine wishing that on people he thinks are bad and deserve it, but it crushes him to imagine the people he loves and cares about having to experience something as painful as what he went through. not to mention the whole “I came back, why do I get a second chance at all this when they, who are a much better person than I am, probably won’t” mindset we get some implications of him having 

D (canon is a coward and won’t) 

hello DC i am once again insisting a batfam member is bisexual

CASS TIME

A (realistic headcanon): 

ok so we know cass likes ballet. thats canon. however i think we also should in general explore cass experiencing other types of dance/performance as well, be it herself as a performer or even just watching. like... god imagine her & like my brain just automatically for group activities puts her with tim steph and duke but also for this in particular I feel would be a Jason embraced activity, but like them going to see a broadway show or some other professional theatre or something, and her just being enthralled by the reading of body language of the performers! like again by any point in current stuff cass does have like, the ability to speak fine (reading still hard tho) but even so I think like. okay im a theatre kid if that’s not obvious from the Everything About Me but one thing I always do after seeing a show is ya know spend dinner afterwards discussing it with whoever i saw it with.

I just think that like, bringing those people i just mentioned to the table to discuss seeing a show after would be so FASCINATING because cass would bring this whole perspective of critiquing their acting on a whole different level- not based on how well they delivered lines out loud, but by what their body language was saying as they moved on stage. like im very amused by the idea of cass getting a totally different picture in her mind about what a character’s motivations were because she was paying way more attention to what their physicality was saying vs the words that were written and how they were delivered. i think the debates her and the others would have would be EPIC there. jason defending the text as it was written adamantly and cass being like ‘ok yeah sure but thats not what they did’

B (hilarious): 

cass having no concept of money because why would she bother? is SO funny to me. like it’s not that she couldn’t be reasonable if she wanted to, but like, she knows that the Waynes are well off so it’s not something she actually needs to be concerned about, so she just goes hog wild. takes steph out to fancy dinners and makes steph order for them since cass ya know doesn’t really read the menus, and steph’s like ‘jesus christ this costs-” “don’t worry about it” “but cass-” and she just holds up one of bruce’s credit cards and steph’s still like “but you don’t even know the range-” “it is fine”

bruce does not have the heart to tell her to stop

C (heart-crushing): 

i mean this is pretty much canon but especially now after death metal where she’s remembering, not just being told by a guy using weird alternate timeline technology, that she used to be an adopted member of the Wayne family... like that hurts so bad. To look at these people who have ya know been kind to her, Bruce has still been a father-like figure to her (i mean literally from the moment they met in New 52 canon during the flashback in Batman & Robin Eternal, where he’s telling her that she’s not a monster just because of what people forced her to do.... that she’s a hero... that hug.... dad behavior), and they do to some extent treat her as family... But to then really know, to feel and remember that she was actually adopted! She was a part of their family. To look at how she’s been calling herself Orphan while working with them this whole time... that’s so heartbreaking! I have cried about this idea so much! I want so badly a conversation between her and Bruce now where he offers to officially adopt her again, I need it so bad and if it doesn’t happen at some point in the next year or two I will be so distraught.

D (canon is a coward and won’t) 

i want an in-depth exploration of cass’ relationship to her own gender. being raised without language and you know with so much of her life being independent (remember: CASS RAN AWAY AROUND THE WORLD WITHOUT REALLY KNOWING ANY SPOKEN LANGUAGE) and outside of an organized society impressing too much of gender expectations on her, i feel like the way she experiences it would be very unique! like sure she’s so far been fine with being assigned ‘girl’ (ya know that comes with batgirl, and how people just automatically treated her based on how she looks) but in terms of gender expression and like her actual relationship with ‘traditional femininity’ etc like... because of how she was raised I just think she’d have a really different perspective on it that could be cool to explore, and I think she’d fall outside of the binary after she really thinks about how she identifies.

tldr on that: she/they nb cass is what i’m getting at here