#bambi-kinos

[kirbyluvr63]

To answer the first tag: yes, it's a bit shallow. I really didn't think this post would get this many notes, I'm a bit overwhelmed with the response myself. I didn't set out to do the most thorough analysis ever because I mainly wanted to tell people to not be afraid of depictions of desire and that I don't think something being disturbing is a bad thing! That's my main point.

I also don't think this was made in the 50s, but that was the date I could find and was attached to the post that I saved the collage from, I agree with you on that part! But I still think the time didn't really matter to the things I wanted to talk about, only if I wanted to add more layers and analyze stuff relating to something very specific that could have inspired him directly. Like, if Linda and Yoko were in the picture (figuratively speaking), you could argue the anger we see here could be related to how John hated Linda and Paul hated Yoko, but each man desired their to-be wives etc, etc. But I'm curious about the "diseased vagina"? I don't see it. I can see a vagina if I squint, but I don't think it looks diseased. I also don't see Linda and Yoko being groped by aliens, but I guess that's the beauty of visual arts! (I know nothing about Dune, so the reference you're speaking of flew right past my head!)

Some Thoughts™

About art, desire and John Lennon

If you're active on the Twitter side of The Beatles fandom you'd know that just yesterday a collage John made for Paul titled "I Only Have Eyes For You" made the rounds and scared people whom, I guess, don't think about visual arts very often. Unfortunately I don't use the word "scared" lightly. People really used the words "disturbing" and "concerning" to describe this piece, with a hint of a "What was Lennon thinking about our poor Paul to make this with him in mind" sentiment that I don't think it's quite fair.

I tried to search more about this collage´s context, but all I could find (without having to buy Julian Lennon's book in which the image was featured) was that it was made in the 50s, while John was still at art college, but to be quite frank, I don't think the exact date matters too much.

What I see in this image first and foremost is desire, plain and simple. Red is a sexual colour, we have naked women sprawled, the head with its mouth open in a orgasm-like fashion, the eyes symbolizing voyeurism. If anything, as a friend of mine also pointed out while we discussed it, this collage is proof of the way John and Paul were so close they were even free to be honest about their sexual desires to one another. Even if the collage was made for another purpose and gifted to Paul later, this sentiment still stands, because Paul was the person he thought would receive this part of himself with open arms.

Is the collage "disturbing"? I guess, in a way. The same way I think growing up in the 40s and 50s in a hyper-convervative protestant society like England and discovering yourself would be disturbing. Even more if you're not entirely straight as an arrow. But I don't think John's talking about this here. This is about his feelings for the opposite sex, and they weren't always nice. Red is also the colour of blood and guts, John was also known for having violent outbursts. Would it not disturb you that the object of your desire also brings up in you violence? I don't think we'll ever know why he felt that way, but here we see that he's aware of it. At least I think so.

I saw another analysis of this collage that somewhat agreed with me, but presented this argument as if this was a bad thing? I don't know exactly what made me think this way, maybe the verbiage, but I'll never think a person exploring the nature of their desire, be it disturbing or not, is wrong. Of course domestic violence is bad and I'm in no way excusing it, but if you're willing to engage with The Beatles, you have to bear in mind they were shitty to the women in their lives in varying degrees much like every man ever in general, and specially at that time.

As a self proclaimed John Lennon Scholar i.e. I Wanna Crack Open His Skull And Look At His Brain With A Microscope, I'm happy this exists, and I think I need a little more time with it myself.

All of this to say: I like it, I think John Lennon was a good visual artist and stop being weird about art.

To lighten up the mood, look at the gay as hell collage John made for Elton in 1975! This one deserved its own post with a lot of tin hatting on my part, but whatever! I love them so much (and yes, I WILL find a way to mention their friendship in every post I make, shut up. One day the Lennon/John masterpost will come).

[muzaktomyears]

you wouldn't last an hour in the asylum where they raised me

[nevereverywhere]

Drawn by Paul for Klaus

[dateinthelife]

29 November 1960

Paul McCartney and Pete Best are arrested for lighting either rags, a wall tapestry, or a condom attached to a nail on fire in the Bambi Kino as they were packing to leave.

[eppysboys]

“Astrid and The Beatles became even closer when she invited them to her home in Altona. For the first time since arriving in Hamburg, the five boys were able to enjoy some home comforts and escape the desperate privations of their hovel like accommodation at The Bambi Kino. They also enjoyed some sorely missed English food: “They loved visiting my house. For their first visit, my mother asked me what they liked to eat, and so she cooked them mashed potatoes, steak and peas – the first proper English meal they’d had since arriving in Germany. She even got them some strawberries, and made tea with milk and sugar. John and my mother got on like house on fire – even though they did not understand a word each other was saying. It was lovely to see. The boys had a good time – they had a bath and enjoyed looking through our records and books. It was to be the first of many such visits.”

Through such occasions, Astrid was able to get to know The Beatles as individuals. 

“Paul is still like he was then, very lovely, deeply modest, and very well mannered. He nearly broke his tongue talking German to my mother. He had his phrase book with him. He always tried to be the translator, because he had these three or five words of German that he knew. George was the sweet one. He was just 17, and he would sit and look at things, politely asking “Can I please look at that book, that magazine?” He is one of my closest friends. I am so pleased to know that he is in England watching over me. He had had tough times recently, and so I am pleased he has his family and his religion to help him. He lost John, his parents, he was almost killed during that terrifying attack, and he had that bad cancer, but through all these tragedies he is still the George he has always been; kind, helpful and full of love for his friends. He is very caring toward me.

...

John was the strong one, always asking questions. All that anger that people associate with him and that was showing the film “Backbeat” in several scenes, where he shouts “It’s all dick!” at everyone and anyone - including me – was not the John I knew. That’s fiction, I never heard him say that. We got on every well – he was never hostile towards me.

“And Stuart!!! Well, by the time they visited my home we really had a crush on each other, so we just sat gazing into one another’s eyes, as the rest carried on. Neither of us actually made the first move, it was both of us - like magnets. At that time, Klaus was my boyfriend, but he sensed what was happening. He saw it and, in a way, forced it, which is strange to understand now, but Klaus always wanted me to be happy. He knew I wasn’t happy in our relationship. He and I were great friends, we shared the same tastes, the same sense of humour, but we just could not live together as lovers, that was impossible. So he encouraged Stuart and me a little bit.”

Astrid Kirchherr on the personalities of The Beatles. Interviewed by Colin Hall for Get Rhythm, August 2001

[bambi-kinos]

excerpts from the McLennon server (hamburg part 2)

Thank you everyone for your patience. This is Part Two of the ongoing Hamburg Conversation from the McLennon server. Part One is here: https://www.tumblr.com/bambi-kinos/718114537612656640/excerpts-from-the-mclennon-server

In Part Two of the Hamburg Conversation we discussed the 1960 trip from Paul’s POV and why he abandoned the Beatles to get a job as a coil winder. This goes into Stuart and Klaus and the Exis, plus how Paul reacted to John’s mind games where he pitted his loved ones against each other. Much has been made of John in Hamburg and how it connected to his later patterns but very little discussion of Paul comparatively.

This conversation was much messier as it spanned several days. We used Discord’s “reply” feature liberally. Sometimes you will see disparate time stamps; this is because I decided to pair the replies with the original comments they were replying to for the sake of readability. Please let me know if there are any confusing points where this doesn’t work and I’ll do my best to clarify the conversation. 

***

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/07/2023 11:02 PM I am back on my bullshit about Hamburg again. this period is just super fascinating to me because of all the possibilities and the way things happened the way they did

I also want to understand why Paul chose John when the first Hamburg trip really sucked in a lot of ways and it could easily have ended with them going off to do something else.

in the beginning John helped Stuart bully Paul and he ostracized Paul from the group via the Exis (apparently deliberately? I go back and forth on this all the time, because I wouldn't put it past John to do it on purpose... but then again his MO was to get enamored with something new only to eventually drop it and snuggle up to Paul again so John probably didn't see it that way?) But once all of that was over and they were back in Liverpool, John tracked down Paul and he had to do a lot of shitwork to get back into Paul's good graces again.

Paul found a job at his dad's behest but I don't think he would have continued with the Beatles if John hadn't come to fetch him. John did something really smart when he came to fetch Paul from the yard where Paul was working: he brought George. First he had to tell George "yeah I'm back" but then he brought George with him to ask Paul to come back. Smart. Strength in numbers. Shows that he's serious and it doesn't look like he's begging because he brought another band member with him.

but Paul didn't leave that job immediately. It took months for Paul to fully come back to the Beatles. John eventually had to give him an ultimatum. I think after the experience of Stuart and the Exis and the group bullying, I think that those months were John working his way back into Paul's good graces again. And eventually Paul forced John to prove that he still wanted Paul, in a way. Earlier when we talked about this Betty made a really good point that Paul was the one fighting for the music, like John was. Stuart met Astrid and John let him go because he knew Stuart was already choosing Astrid over him so it was better not to fight it. But that period after John came back... that's fascinating. John recuperated for a while by not telling anyone he had come back. Paul got a job (and it sounds like he didn't need a lot of pushing) and I think it was because he might have been preparing to leave the Beatles thing behind completely.

Like I think Paul came back to Liverpool thinking that he and John were not friends anymore. IMO Paul carried the memory of the experience with the Exis around and that he remained distant from them forever.

Funnily enough, Paul has turned out the real black sheep of the whole trip. Everybody hates him and I only feel sorry for him.” — Stuart Sutcliffe in a letter to Rod Murray, late 1960

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/07/2023 11:09 PM I mean look at that. Look at the sheer petty contempt in that quote + the caricature. That's something else man. There's no way Paul doesn't carry the memory of that with him. And I think its present in the Revolver cover as well. Look at how Klaus portrays Paul:

I think Paul looks off to the side because that's all Klaus really gets out of him. We all know what it's like to be treated in a crappy way by friends-of-your-friends and I've said before that I think the first Hamburg trip is where a lot of John and Paul's patterns got solidified. So Paul isn't friends with the Exis, even in 1966, because he remembers who Klaus is and who he hung out with and I think those memories are very painful for him. He holds on to them. Maybe not grudges but he holds onto that pain. (And I mean, that's fair. I still remember my elementary school bully and if she were on fire in front of me I wouldn't even take a whizz on her.)

Klaus only ever saw Paul's profile... if they don't meet your eyes do you really know them? John rarely met Yoko's eyes in public I notice, whereas he was constantly diving into Paul's.... right up until that photo from the Lost Weekend where he's turned as far away from Paul as he can get... So Paul's profile being the thing Klaus drew speaks to the distance between Paul and Klaus... and Paul and the other Beatles. Even among other misfits, Paul doesn't fit in. In a lot of ways Linda was the only one who could accept him for his true self even if there was a lot of nastiness underneath that.

I think the 1966 cover is indicative that Paul held Klaus at a distance, even then. Klaus saw Paul's loneliness in Hamburg and how this made him bitter, apparently doesn't empathize with it very much since he played on HDYS.

If Klaus had tried to make friends with Paul as adults, he would have run full into the Wall. There's no way that Paul McCartney would be friends with someone who drew a caricature of him like that when Paul was friendless and in pain and the only thing he had was music and girls.

And I understand that Hamburg was full of psychosexual drama from 18 and 20 year olds, but I think that its significant because of how Paul got frozen in time due to the fame thing, struggling to grow up, suffering from a kind of Peter Pan syndrome.

So I find it interesting that... Paul got a job after Hamburg. I don't think John would have had to show up with George on Paul's lunch break and essentially beg him to come back if Paul had been gung ho about the Beatles. John had to earn his way back into a friendship with Paul. It took months for Paul to give up the job and join the Beatles fully, John remembers it as a "long trip."

There's another recollection that when John finally gave Paul the ultimatum that Paul bounced into the Cavern -- what if this is Paul being happy that John chose him, that John cared enough to give Paul an ultimatum?

John remembers it as a custody battle between him and Jim where he fought Jim for Paul's attention... but what if Paul saw it as something else entirely?

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/07/2023 11:20 PM Like, Paul got a job after Hamburg. He didn't know that John was back in town. I don't think we know when John told him that he was back. I think Paul got a job because he thought that he and John were not friends anymore after his experiences in Hamburg and the last thing he expected was for John to show up and nag him about coming back. I think Paul was convinced that John would go all in with Stuart and the Exis or that they were a sign that John was done with Paul completely. He didn't understand that John was watching Paul the entire time they were in Hamburg, watching Paul be in the filth with him, taking the pills and dealing with the gangsters and living for the music in a way that Stuart never could.

And from Paul's POV, the long stretch of months between John finding him at the spooling yards to beg Paul to come back, and Paul being given an ultimatum that he needed to choose between his job or the Beatles -- I think that period was Paul waiting to see if John really loved him/was really wanting to be Paul's friend or not.

BRrraCKets! — 05/08/2023 4:56 AM Paul doesnt suffer fools gladly, he called out the Exis on some of their bullshit and they didnt like it. They also took to Stuart and I would imagine it was a case of if your friend doesnt like someone then they dont either. Ive always felt that Klaus didnt like Paul, most of his drawings of him arent very nice, theres an odd one thats ok. That Revolver cover has always irked me with how hes drawn Paul compared to the others. I like your take on it.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 5:01 AM Do you remember the details on Paul's interactions with the Exis? I don't remember that from Tune In.

That's a really good point about Stu not liking him so the others took the lead from him, oof.

I think Klaus may have (hopefully) chilled out on Paul since then but yeah, I don't think they're really friendly towards each other. Maybe "dislike" is too strong but they only ever had John and Stu in common and, well. Paul never let Klaus in.

BRrraCKets! — 05/08/2023 5:04 AM Ive read of it somewhere but cant remember where!  It was just a sentence or two.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 5:04 AM Probably a Paul bio of which I am reading McCartney Legacy

we'll have to wait for Betty to wake up

BRrraCKets! — 05/08/2023 5:45 AM I wonder, when Stuart left the Beatles, did Klaus hope to take his place on the bass. Paul stepping in would have been another reason to dislike him.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 5:47 AM That's an interesting idea. No clue but maybe that's an angle....

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 6:16 PM He did. I believe he says it in his memoirs, but also in an interview about the book in 2001. He said he asked John, but it was too late; Paul had already taken up the bass

Even if that had happened, I don’t think Klaus would’ve fit in, them all being from Liverpool and Klaus being German (I’m half-German, I can say that lol)

Plus he came from a very rich (diamond mines etc) background..sure, his family lost everything in the war, but some of the posh attitude was still there. And despite being fascinated by it, he didn’t consider rock n roll “real” music

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 7:19 PM did not know this about Klaus, huh

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 7:24 PM He talked about his grandfather being this fabulously rich eccentric

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 7:25 PM huh! i need to check his stuff out then

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 7:31 PM It’s in this German interview

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/kultur/im-interview-klaus-voormann-ich-waere-besser-gewesen-als-paul-1.432929

With the provocative headline “I would’ve been better than Paul”

Apple_Scruff — 05/08/2023 5:48 AM Paul playing based has always sounded like a forced thing out of desperation.

I doubt he would have agreed to switch to bass if Klaus was offering.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 5:51 AM Agree but....he may not have liked it if Klaus offered since he was so pushy about Stuart's playing.

BRrraCKets! — 05/08/2023 6:14 AM He didnt want anyone else muscling in. The group nucleus was set. His guitar was shot, he was filling in on piano, a bit of bass when S couldnt be arsed to show up, what else was he to do when G&J downright refused to take it on. Theyd gone home by then too.

mynamesbetty — 05/08/2023 7:50 AM unfortunately I can't think of anything like that in what I've read, I'll take a look at Tune In and the other Paul bios I have later We know that Paul is willing to ice people out when he feels they aren't working out for him as friends/collaborators, and after months of doing the most for the group and getting shat on  by his songwriting partner and the Exis he was probably thinking "fuck it, I don't need this treatment" and got a job to start separating himself from the group

But John knows by now that Paul is his golden ticket and he has to get Paul back, so once he gets over the self-pity of leaving Hamburg in disgrace and works up the courage to ask Paul to come back, he brings George along to present a united front

The Beatles first show after coming back from Hamburg was on December 27 1960 at Litherland Town Hall, a few weeks after John arrived back in Liverpool

And I'd bet anything that Paul skipping back to rehearsal all smiles was because he felt like he'd gotten one over on Stuart and the Exis, in a "nyah-nyah he chose me over you (blows raspberries and making wanking motion)" kind of way

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 8:46 AM yesss perf

And it all worked out for him when John didn't discipline Paul for punching Stuart even tho he most likely lost

He had a good feeling about John making his choice too....

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 10:24 AM According to that interview from 2001, Klaus asked John to join and play bass right after Stu left, but John said Paul had already taken up the bass

Of course, in 2001, Klaus was still speculating what would have happened if he became the 5th Beatle and saying he thinks his bass playing would’ve been better for John’s style in later years

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 10:33 AM That whole interview [Klaus] showed both admiration and, imo, some disdain for Paul (and Paul wrote the foreword for his book, I believe) In that Interview he also vehemently denies anything sexual between John and Stu

It’s a fascinating period. I believe I read John was back in Liverpool anywhere from 10 days to three weeks before contacting George and Paul Which means he couldn’t have been to any of their usual hangouts

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 10:36 AM lol lmao

>better for John's later style >john and stu had nothing sexual going on incredible. so many things wrong

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 12:01 PM John periodically took time off to recharge, it was one of his quirks/needs.

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 10:45 AM I thinks it’s still a bit of envy…everyone who got close to the Beatles and thinks “what if”

To be fair, he did admit that Paul was instrumental in making the Beatles famous, because “John wasn’t a frontman” and Paul was the only professional of the group

But you can read between the lines that there is disdain there for the Beatles’ early sound and Paul was a “charlatan”….the PR man

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 10:58 AM It’s interesting that John said the way he felt after he came back after Hamburg was similar to how he felt before Paris 1961…but time he wanted Paul to be there

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 12:09 PM and Paris 1961 ended up being a two week period of great renewal and joy for John, all because of Paul. No wonder he tried to recreate it with Yoko.

louiselux — 05/08/2023 11:41 AM It’s such a fascinating period! In the breakup Paul must’ve recognised some of John’s behaviour from back then. Dropping Paul and replacing him with someone else who is more arty and special. John may have been being tactical about it back then, maybe playing Paul and Stu against each other,  waiting to see where the nexus of power/talent/ambition lay, and therefore his future. Paul wouldn’t have appreciated that at all, like who would? Also John must’ve known the power he had over Paul, and vice versa, in any number of ways inc sexuality, attraction, love, obsession. That cartoon by Klaus is so deeply unkind, coupled with Stu’s letter. You have to wonder what Paul was like with them, and what all of their behaviour was like on the daily.

louiselux — 05/08/2023 11:51 AM But it is so interesting that Paul got a crappy job on the lorries, John ignored them all for weeks, and Stu was never coming back to the band. Because the gig they subsequently did that Christmas at Litherland Town Hall was where they realised how good they were compared to the Liverpool bands, and how vastly exciting the public found them. So back from Hamburg they obviously collectively didn’t know where they were going or what they were doing, or even if they were a band. I wonder just how much persuasion had to go on on John’s part to get back in with Paul. A lot of charming, a lot of fuss and attention, persuading, light grovelling

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 12:18 PM in Tune In there's a lot of quotes from George about how they felt they had a lot of talent compared to the other bands, even when they were JaPaGe and they didn't actually warrant the confidence. I think for them they were seeking energy, technical ability, and stamina which Hamburg earned them in spades and brought their talent up to their expectations at last.

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 11:57 AM Definitely shades of Yoko/John later on…Paul probably hoped/thought that would play out the same way as Stu.

But we also get so many contradictory stories out of Hamburg, like John claiming he and Paul bullied Stu and afterwards felt bad about it John turned away from music after Julia’s death and turned to drink and rage,  it also kinda to Stu and art..only Paul’s persistence in pursuing John (for the band, for himself) turned that a bit back around.

I always wonder if at that point, John wasn’t getting from Paul what he really wanted, also there was still the age gap.. Stu was older, maybe came across as more mature and adventurous

Even George, I believe, said with Yoko, John was trying to replicate what he had with Stu.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 12:20 PM Yeah. its a conundrum about what that means. Did John actually feel bad after bullying Stu or did he only feel bad because then Stu died and he did some self reflecting?

Paul was very instrumental in helping John cope with losing Julia, to be fair. Paul is cited by many outsiders to be the only one who never lost his patience with John even when he was being a public embarrassment or acting violent and cruel. my personal take is that Paul is the one who cleaned John up and made him fit company for Stu and Cynthia and otherwise they would have both run away from John..

louiselux — 05/08/2023 12:01 PM That is completely fascinating to think of Yoko as a Stu replacement.

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 12:03 PM Yoko’s comments how John talked about Stu every day and how he was the best friend he ever had…I always thought she did that hurt Paul. And also, Stu died so young, I can believe John put him up on some untouchable pedestal that wouldn’t have survived if Stu had lived

louiselux — 05/08/2023 12:04 PM Agreed. You have to wonder what Lennon/McCartney would have been like with a Sutcliffe in the mix. Maybe not that different, possibly. Because Paul grew in confidence and became endlessly bold and weird

louiselux — 05/08/2023 12:08 PM Yoko likely said a lot of things with the intention of hurting him

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 12:08 PM A lot of people who were John-oriented have this complaint, that they think Paul was somehow "fake" just because he's good at selling and connects with an audience. IMO it always says a lot more about the complainer's personal issues with Paul rather than it being a legitimate criticism. Klaus doesn't like Paul because Paul cut the Exis down to size and Stuart apparently overtly hated him, then Stuart died and Paul took over the bass position which Klaus apparently asked for himself (‼️) and then Paul had the nerve to go swanning all over the world getting famous for being John's creative partner.... and no matter what Klaus says, he has eyes, he knows how John looked at Paul and what that meant.

It's just another case of someone being bitter because of Paul's success. John used Klaus as a bassman on HDYS the recording that Ringo walked out on but George did not.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 12:16 PM It being John looking for a potential future, that's an interesting idea. I think at that point John had kind of given up on that since he had been kicked out of art school by that point or was on his way to doing it. Music became his life because it kept his attention and he loved it -- he told a girl he was dating at the Cavern not to screw up her placement at art school the way he did. I don't know if he had high expectations for himself there -- what did John think of his heart? was he actually proud of it?

Paul said that he'd sometimes gang up on Stu with John as well as vice versa so I think it was definitely a case of John pitting them against each other to make them compete for the Best Friend spot. But then when Paul was deported he got a job instead of crawling back to John.... very reminiscent of the break up. Paul would fight for John but once he perceived he lost (Stu, Yoko) then he was perfectly capable of cutting John off. Paul is sensitive to being mistreated.

this is all speculation but I think that first trip was hard for Paul. He was lonely, he wanted John's attention, probably acted out and then got mocked and jeered at for it.

So he paid women to pay attention to him and then he was attractive and treated them decently which made him popular so while John is enjoying Stu's company and hanging out with the Exis, Paul simply hides in women and practices his guitar.

We have seen this before.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 12:21 PM John wanted an equal and Paul just wasn't it, even if they had chemistry. John didn't take Paul seriously until Hamburg in 1960 when he watched Paul become a man and watched him be furiously independent no matter what slings and arrows he took.

But Stu was patient and was able to meet John on a different field with Art, and John needed that very much. Paul was too young for what he wanted in a very real way.

with a Stuart that lived, I think Paul would have been pushed to make a public declaration to John instead of waffling forever. Stu was Paul's only serious competition.

louiselux — 05/08/2023 1:31 PM I think so too! Something would have had to give, because John could have gone running off to Stu at any moment

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 1:33 PM I do wonder about that scenario. It looked like John had accepted that Stu was off with Astrid. And the Paris honeymoon happened while Stu was still alive. It seems like J and P had cemented and defined their relationship

Now if Stu and Astrid didn’t last and Stu came back to Liverpool at some point…

He may have always been hanging around in the background…or maybe not.

mynamesbetty — 05/08/2023 2:04 PM John praising Paul's abilities as a bass player in 1980 must have rankled him lol, he said Paul was one of the most innovative bass players in rock

mynamesbetty — 05/08/2023 2:27 PM addendum: The Beatles with Chas Newby on bass played the Casbah on December 17 1960, we regret the error

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 2:36 PM Good! I hope it rankled

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 3:35 PM Stu had no future in Liverpool and he knew it. His application for a position at the Liverpool art college was rejected and he had a great apprenticeship going with an older German artist who recognized his talent. Stuart had no reason to back to Liverpool except to visit. I also think that Stu found his person in Astrid and their relationship would have worked.

I think the greatest threat to Paul would not be Stu's presence but what he represented in John's life: a peer who had a profound hold on John in an avenue that Paul wasn't confident about competing in. I think Paul would be very worried about John going back to Stu for sure, because he can't help being insecure about their relationship.

I think, to this day even since John is fucking dead, Paul is still worried that he will make John disgusted or bored and that John will leave him again. Irrational? Yeah. True? You bet.

I think a timeline where Stuart lives would force Paul into a corner: either he breaks the relationship or he takes a leap of faith.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 4:01 PM if anything else, this fundamental fear of Paul's would be the driver to any action Paul took regarding John in a timeline where Stuart lives. The deathly fear that Stu will take John away from him, again... Stu didn't have to be present in Liverpool, his specter would hang over everything.

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 4:25 PM I can completely see that. And totally agree on Paul’s fears until this day.

I just wonder if Stu would’ve kept this idealised spot… or if he would’ve pissed John off some point like a lot of people did, which led John to cutting him off.

Or, I guess, John could’ve remained loyal to him like he did to many old friends (at least until New York) and maybe got him to do cover or promo art for The Beatles. Can you imagine?!

Stu was so very young; it’s difficult to say what could’ve happened

Misery — 05/08/2023 4:30 PM God and the thing with Paul in Hamburg too is like

Here’s this high strung cash strapped teenager. Now we’re going to take him to a foreign country, get him addicted to amphetamines, and completely abandon him for a “cooler” friend group. Wait, why is he being so annoying?????

Like, the exis loved George, and Pete was just doing his own thing because he was so independent from the rest of the group, meanwhile Paul is all of a sudden entirely friendless for seemingly no reason, and the things that he was doing back in Liverpool are suddenly seen as annoying and stupid, and he’s being ignored left and right.

And obviously the huge caveat for the drama in Hamburg is of course that they were all idiot teens/barely adults, who had suddenly been thrust into a new stressful circumstance, so no wonder they all went insane a little bit.

Like you’ve all said it’s something that time/stu living would change a lot, but that wasn’t meant to be

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 6:24 PM I really feel for Paul during that trip. I think we can kinda guess what he was feeling, but I can’t get a real read on John at the time.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 7:24 PM Yeah, John is a real enigma here. He was very close mouthed about this period aside from some little things. Presumably because it's too painful with Stuart's death. Or maybe he just didn't care because the whole thing didn't have the same weight for him as it did for Paul... or he was too ashamed to talk about it....

But John not caring seems very unlikely since Hamburg 1960 is where he came out even more insane about Paul.

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 7:33 PM It might’ve been the drugs, his sexual explorations, mental health issues..but it is interesting he didn’t really talk about that period… Maybe too painful because it was the real start of them as The Beatles and he really missed it

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 7:38 PM ouch

this is a big part of it i bet

mynamesbetty — 05/08/2023 8:04 PM Tune In, written by the king of the Paul haters, pg 374-5

Many Years From Now, pg 64-5

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 8:06 PM the amount of seething contempt for a lonely 18 year old in these paragraphs, astounding

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 10:26 PM And I don’t think we can 100% trust Stu’s view of things either. That’s maybe how he wanted things to be. I’m not saying Paul didn’t have a rough time, but Stu may have embellished somewhat in that letter (because he also knew how important Paul was to John ultimately)

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 10:54 PM Yeah. It occurs to me (like now, as I'm writing this) that Stuart was probably venting in that letter. I don't think he liked Paul at all but that's a lot of hatefulness in one sentence and I really dislike the idea of John deliberately tolerating someone who overtly despised Paul that much. John was an asshole at times but I struggle to imagine him encouraging that level of antipathy. So hopefully it wasn't quite that bad for Paul.

louiselux — 05/09/2023 3:12 AM Also him thinking that a letter from anyone reveals ‘the stark truth of the matter’ rather than just another pov on a situation. Mehhhh. I didn’t know that about Klaus asking to be the bass player. He seems to be a person who was used to getting what he wanted, being rich and pretty, and is it possible that he resented Paul for taking a place in the Beatles/John’s friendship that he thought should have been his?

louiselux — 05/09/2023 3:26 AM The situation is weird and so opaque. I doubt John ‘hated’ Paul, as Stu put it, because why would he suddenly hate him after being so close? But John might’ve loved being accepted as a part of the new exciting clique and that might’ve trumped everything else for a bit. John was obsessed with having his gang. It feels like a lot of heightened teenage dynamics we’re going on.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 9:23 AM thinking that the letter holds some objective truth is a classic mistake that Lewisohn makes all the time, because its easier than accepting that there were multiple POVs on what happened. Lewisohn thinks he can flatten everything and that there's an objective "truth" to discover and present (courtesy of him naturally.) It's just dumb no matter what. One of the first things I was taught about historical study was that primary sources are king because multiple POVs proliferate. It was Paul who compared Beatlemania to an earthquake and how different stories sprout from it and they're all true.

I wonder how much Klaus was shitposting or trying to grab attention via headlines with claims like that. I would be very surprised if John gave serious consideration to Klaus joining the band, Paul was already a sure thing and he clearly wasn't going to be happy with anyone else playing bass. I hope Klaus didn't actually think he had a shot, it just makes no sense for Klaus to join the Beatles from any angle.

If he really believed that he had a shot at joining the Beatles and Paul somehow stood in his way.... then uhhhh what the heck lmao

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 9:34 AM This seems very likely, good insight. Makes me wonder if John staying friends with Paul might have rankled Stu as their rivalry increased? "Don't worry Rod everyone else totally hates him here but I only feel sorry for him."

John liked new experiences and getting swept away with things so its not surprising that he got enamored with the Exis. They were arty, new, and offered a fresh POV for him to see the world. Anyone would be intrigued by such a friends group. The fact that they were happy to be dominated by John and enjoyed Stuart (especially since Stu and Astrid hit it off!) probably makes it inevitable that someone would end up on the outside and that someone was Paul.

1960 John especially would be feeling his adolescent insecurities very hard so he'd naturally want the Exis as under his thumb as he could get them. I wonder if Stuart also enjoyed being controlled that way? I don't actually know how independent he was of John compared to Paul. (Tho no one ever matched Paul in sheer tenaciousness when it came to escaping John's gravity well.)

The pills, alcohol, and sleeplessness would naturally exacerbate all this.

Morrigan — 05/09/2023 10:49 AM Maybe I’m being too judgmental when it comes to Klaus; it’s hard to judge his tone in written form. Maybe he sounded self-deprecating when answering, but I was surprised that 40 years on (at the time), instead of just saying “it’s tantalising to imagine me being part of the Beatles, but nah they were perfect they way they were and I’ve my own life”…he actually still brings up how his bass playing could’ve maybe been better for the band at some point.

To be fair, he also says Beatlemania wouldn’t have happened without Paul (his looks, his professionalism) , and that Klaus himself maybe wouldn’t have had the necessary charisma

Morrigan — 05/09/2023 10:53 AM Totally agree with this. It was a wild few months; them also being away from home for the first time as well (and in a very strange environment). So many outsiders have described the bond they had before Hamburg, how Paul seemed to make John come alive etc; they already had a solid foundation. I don’t think anyone could’ve muscled in there permanently

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 12:29 PM We don't know much about him so its hard not to give him side eye sometimes lol. Ultimately Klaus seems grateful for what the Beatles did for him and how he got to have a place in history thanks to them. I wouldn't necessarily label him negatively since he seems content with his lot and has gotten to make a lot of great art over the years. He likes his niche.

Otoh its still really weird that he's apparently still maintaining a delusion about being a potential Beatle. IMO it once again says more about his relationship with Paul than anything else. Paul is the bedrock of the band and without him, there are no Beatles. Lots of people resent him for this, even other Beatles. I would bet Klaus, like many, is pulled in by John's charisma, values George as a friend, and resents/resented the fact that he couldn't get closer to them because Paul filled that space. "If I was in his place then I could be with George and John all the time and we'd be even better friends. What's so special about Paul's bass playing anyway? I'm just as good." That's the kind of resentment that sticks with you when you have famous friends i guess.

But it also misses the point and the importance of Paul: Paul's bass playing was creative and innovative. He brought new sounds into the band. He also had the energy to get them over their creative humps to deliver material for new records and consistently hit their deadlines. Paul wasn't just "the bassplayer." He was John's everything, the one who delivered results, and the one who made the records work for the Beatles. If Klaus was really as good as he thinks he is then John would have made him a fixture during the solo years. But John didn't do that because Klaus is no match for Paul's ability to consistently deliver results.

I suspect Klaus knows this or he wouldn't admit to Paul's success like that. But its probably very hard to be close to the Beatles because you would naturally want a piece of it.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 12:32 PM

So many outsiders have described the bond they had before Hamburg, how Paul seemed to make John come alive etc; they already had a solid foundation. I don’t think anyone could’ve muscled in there permanently

An extremely vital point and probably the ultimate root of the resentment surrounding Paul during that time (or any other time). No matter what they did or where they took him, John still wanted to return to Paul.

There is something special and unique about Paul that had John loving him deeply and to the exclusion of others. Even back then.

mynamesbetty — 05/09/2023 2:00 PM I'd just like to add that re: drugs, Paul was wary of the Prellies and usually stuck to one a night, where John was eating them like candy Paul had already shown reticence towards drugs when he refused to partake of chewing the benzedrine cartridges inside nasal sprays back in Liverpool, so that's another aspect of the "Paul's not as cool and worldly as the rest of us" ganging up on him

Morrigan — 05/09/2023 3:04 PM And then that of course carried over to Paul not wanting to try acid at first

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 3:04 PM Yeah... so Paul was often on the outside that way too

Morrigan — 05/09/2023 3:07 PM I wonder if John saw that as Paul keeping a part of himself back; of not totally committing so they could share everything together

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 3:13 PM That's a big part of it. Tune In says John habitually used Prellies to try to get people to talk to him, he used it as a tool to get people to open up. So Paul dragging his heels and only doing it when he felt like it would be infuriating (and enchanting) to John because Paul was refusing to submit to John's direction and control. Paul could skate on the edges of John's gravity well and refused to get closer until he decided to.

It also may be that John was anxious about doing these things without Paul. He wanted Paul to mirror him very early and Paul's refusal to do so fascinated him especially for those moments where Paul did eventually cave and the mirroring turned out fantastic -- it made the victories sweeter. Pete Shotton said John needed a partner in everything he did, even when he was a little kid, so it was a genuine need in him to want someone like Paul.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 3:21 PM Makes me wonder how palpable John's attraction to Paul must have been -- even if he didn't fully realize it in Hamburg yet. I fully believe that there is some watershed moment we don't know about for John realizing how deep his attraction to Paul ran.

Morrigan — 05/09/2023 3:33 PM He said he chose Paul as his partner (in music), but we know it was so much more than that. At some point he realised, ‘this is the one’. If only he’d gotten to write his memoirs…. 😢

BRrraCKets! — 05/09/2023 4:00 PM I wonder if his attraction scared him a little and that’s why he backed right off in that first Hamburg trip.

He had plenty to distract him.

When Paul was deported, John was left behind. He could easily have stayed and pursued something there and kept near Stuart, but he didnt. He went back to Liverpool. Brooded on it for a while, then pursued Paul to get back with him.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 4:06 PM I never thought of the possibility of him staying behind with Stu but you're right! oh wow

BRrraCKets! — 05/09/2023 4:06 PM I think that’s when he decided Paul was it for him.

He could have looked at picking up his art again, like Stu did, or music in another band. His heart must have decided on music, but music meant Paul.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 4:12 PM oh my god!!!! :sobface:

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 4:13 PM And also the trauma of Paul being deported... Klaus has a drawing of Paul and Pete being shoved into a cop car, I wonder if John was there if it happened like that with Paul and Pete being taken off the street

Like for John that's another loss but instead of Paul abandoning him that's someone taking Paul away from him

And so he goes home later that week.... and he stays shut up in his room for days... and when he emerges he gets George and goes straight to Paul.....

BRrraCKets! — 05/09/2023 4:15 PM He can’t do it without Paul.

Hahaha in a roundabout way, Paul made John choose between him and Stu, and Paul won!

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 4:17 PM After all that mess, John really did have a shot to choose Stuart and do art forever, hang out in Hamburg and never go back. Stuart evaded deportation by living in Astrid's house, John could do the same. But John played a few nights alone and then took all the gear back by himself

and then he chose Paul while he was convalescing in his bedroom....

Morrigan — 05/09/2023 5:10 PM I do think that was definitely part of it… but I don’t think it would’ve been that easy for him to stay had he wanted to… Stu was different because he’d already started establishing himself there outside of the band (and he had Astrid and her family, who couldn’t be expected to take on John as well).

John had no money. I believe he continued playing with other bands only to fulfil contractual obligations (?). And he said he was depressed after Hamburg, thinking this was maybe as far as music could take them… to seedy bars in a red light district. Coming back to Liverpool, I wonder what his thought process and state of relationship with Paul was like.

Now in 1961, when he again faces a crisis regarding continuing with music, he obviously chooses Paul…even without the music. Even though they were making decent-ish money in Liverpool by then, John was fed up and wanted to run away (at least for a bit).

I know people say he didn’t take Cyn to Paris because she was busy with school and unmarried couples didn’t really travel together, but I think it was more than that. He’d decided it was going to be him and Paul… in any potential endeavour, even if it wasn’t a band. That carries on through to their later ideas of writing a play, a musical together; and just always writing together

That said, I don’t think he actually wanted to stay in Hamburg

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 5:59 PM Yeah, John stayed in Hamburg for the contractual stuff. Considering its a port town it would have been easy for him to stay IMO but who knows. I think it does indicate that staying with Stuart didn't cross his mind; if it had and if John had really wanted it, he could have found a way. The fact that he didn't and instinctively went home (to the place where Paul had been forced to go) indicates just how strong Paul's hold on him was, despite John not knowing what he was going to do next.

The depression is just John's pattern I think. He had tall highs and deep lows. John coming back from Hamburg reminds me of reading descriptions of his return home from their tours and how inaccessible he was to Cynthia and Julian because of his profound depression. Hamburg was absolutely similar -- women, booze, pep pills to keep them awake and then it ended traumatically leaving John in a very bleak place. The physical low from coming off all those prellies would be crazy and John was addicted. He may have been going through detox which would destabilize his mental scape. The same thing happened with the tours and the amount of drugs they were doing, particularly the coke, which meant that John crashed after each tour because he stopped inhaling all those drugs.

We can only speculate about his thought process post-Hamburg but John repeated patterns, that was his entire thing. I think looking at the Dakota years could tell us a lot, albeit with the caveat that John hadn't done any "splitting" regarding Paul yet. He probably felt bleak, wondering if there was a point in continuing. He knew there was more pain ahead of him if he continued with the Beatles. John knew they were good and probably realized they were better than their peers but maybe he realized that he might have bungled things with Paul. He's watching the wheels.... Then he ran into George on the street iirc and that's when things solidified for him: he needed music and that meant he needed Paul.

So he takes George with him because he needs the support and doesn't want to appear vulnerable in front of someone he probably knows he wasn't kind to. And Paul holds him at arms length for a while but John is persistent and finally tells Paul that he's not going to settle for being half time anymore, Paul needs to commit to him.

When it comes to Paris and such: Paul, for John, represents renewal and possibility. He renewed after Hamburg in 1960 and sought out Paul for it. He renewed in 1961 and they went on their honeymoon in Paris. In 1980, John was preparing to record with Paul and was actively leaving Yoko.

John's mental aesthetic regarding Paul always contained admiration (and sometimes resentment) for Paul's endless energy and his ability to createcreatecreate. That's an energy that John relied on. He used it emotionally as well as musically.

mynamesbetty — 05/09/2023 7:57 PM and on the flip side we have John unfairly blaming Paul for John's inability to write by accusing Paul of bouncing along and writing like a fiend without thinking about how John was feeling, in the "I was going through murder" period

...and then, much later, John hears "Coming Up" on the radio and something long dormant sparks up inside him

VeggieRavioli — 05/09/2023 9:33 PM I'm soo late to this conversation but I love it! I wanna add my favourite Hamburg era tidbit that's hidden away in a footnote in Tune In, because I think it's really interesting to compare the aftermath of the 1960 first Hamburg trip with the 1961 Hamburg trip. TL;DR Paris was not the only time John and Paul ran away holidayed together in 1961

we all know John and Paul went to visit Betty and Mike in Caversham in April 1960, but Paul has stated multiple times that they took two trips to visit his cousin, the second one travelling down to Ryde on the Isle of Wight. But when did they take this trip? It's referenced in MYFN but no timeframe is given.

Mark Lewisohn proposes that the only obvious window is July 1961, directly after they arrived home from Hamburg - they had nine days off before they were back onstage in Liverpool on July 13. You'd think they would have spent this time kicking back at home after three months away, catching up w/ family and friends.......... but if that were the case, Lewisohn says, why didn't they attend Ringo's massive 21st birthday bash on July 8th?? All the biggest bands in Liverpool were invited, but the Beatles were conspicuously absent.

so if Lewisohn's hunch is correct and they swanned off to Ryde right after they just dragged their exhausted asses back from Hamburg, the implications of that are 👀 !!! bc that means Paul's behaviour towards John was sooo markedly different compared to the previous trip. Paul resigned himself to a shitty factory job in 1960, John had to win Paul back and prove himself to him, the band's future was in limbo..... but HERE, to me it's like 1961 Paul is staking his claim. By immediately taking John on a quick holiday to Ryde, he's actively preventing another post-Hamburg comedown and securing them some 1-on-1 time to re-cement their partnership

especially considering that Paul's tension with Stuart was arguably at an all-time high in 1961 -- they had their fight near the end of that trip, Dot and Cynthia came to visit but John & Cyn actually spent more time with Astrid & Stuart than with Paul..... I can just so see Paul being like :paulbuthehasagun: oh you like the beach John? you went to the beach with stuart? Come to this picturesque coastal town with me right the fuck now you're gonna love it

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 9:46 PM Veggie I love this connection. you're brilliant

mynamesbetty — 05/09/2023 9:47 PM get your man Paul!!

interesting that Paul made the first move here

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 9:48 PM

so if Lewisohn's hunch is correct and they swanned off to Ryde right after they just dragged their exhausted asses back from Hamburg, the implications of that are 👀 !!! bc that means Paul's behaviour towards John was sooo markedly different compared to the previous trip.

feral for this

YES.... after all that fuss in Hamburg they came back and Paul pushed John up against a wall and said "you're coming with me now" and john just went "o-okay"

Paul resigned himself to a shitty factory job in 1960, John had to win Paul back and prove himself to him, the band's future was in limbo..... but HERE, to me it's like 1961 Paul is staking his claim. By immediately taking John on a quick holiday to Ryde, he's actively preventing another post-Hamburg comedown and securing them some 1-on-1 time to re-cement their partnership

yes!!! he learned from 1960, he didn't give John a chance to get down in the dumps! he said "let's go on an adventure John!" and he just took him reminding John that this isn't like last time. in short Paul broke the pattern

I can just so see Paul being like :paulbuthehasagun: oh you like the beach John? you went to the beach with stuart? Come to this picturesque coastal town with me right the fuck now you're gonna love it

the jealousy angle at work here. oh my god

mynamesbetty — 05/09/2023 9:51 PM as long as they keep moving John can't sink into a funk which may have further implications re: Paul's work ethic

VeggieRavioli — 05/09/2023 9:51 PM aieeee I'm obsessed w/ it

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 9:51 PM Veggie you're a genius

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 9:52 PM john's in a depression? let's do something and distract him from it... 1960? on the rocks, worry and frustration. 1961? "dis mine dis MINE"

VeggieRavioli — 05/09/2023 9:54 PM while they seemed to make a lot of progress in Hamburg RE: trading up to better and better clubs, it really stood out to me in Tune In that after their 2nd trip they just returned to the same old in Liverpool, again - same circuit of halls and clubs, no one on their level, no upward momentum until Brian in November. So I love how John and Paul dealt with this by repeatedly skipping out on commitments when they got bored and goin on trips together

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 9:54 PM yeah! they decided it wasn't worth their time so they bolted

and they were right too lmao

they wanted to be together instead of playing the same circuit over and over...

VeggieRavioli — 05/09/2023 9:56 PM and then Stuart's writing letters like "they quit the band and went to Paris to play together? I don't believe it..."

Paul's like "you'd bETTER BELIEVE IT BUDDY"

Morrigan — 05/09/2023 9:58 PM Wasn’t it said that Ticket to Ride was inspired by Ryde?

VeggieRavioli — 05/09/2023 9:59 PM yes fs, I think Paul restates this in The Lyrics again too? don't have it in front of me, but yes

VeggieRavioli — 05/09/2023 9:58 PM Oh I thought we’d shared that quote here already but no it’s legit

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 10:00 PM this is the possessive Paul we need

mynamesbetty — 05/09/2023 10:10 PM Paul stomps in like "he's my soulmate, get your own!" and whisks John off on a road trip

Apple_Scruff — 05/09/2023 10:11 PM Stuart literally having his own soulmate Astrid the whole time: confused

Morrigan — 05/09/2023 10:44 PM People have to had seen the special connection between them…John wasn’t going on trips to Ryde or Paris or Caversham with just George

louiselux — 05/10/2023 3:25 AM So fascinating and such great detective work! I wonder too if Paul thought he might be detoxing John, or whether they both had that in mind? Sun, sea, fresh air, no amphetamines etc, just wholesome British beer lol.

louiselux — 05/10/2023 7:06 AM There's just something so innocent about Paul taking him on a seaside holiday, compared to what they had just been doing in Hamburg, it's so sweetly unsophisticated.

I've been to Ryde. The whole of the Isle of Wight, where Ryde is the main town, is just off mainland UK and it feels stuck about 30 years in the past, so Ryde in the early 60s might've felt very old fashioned indeed.

[mclennonlgbt]

I was tagged by @the-boney-rolls, thanks!

tagging five people I want to get to know better and who haven’t been tagged yet: @muzaktomyears @lord-pain @m1ssunderstanding @sleeper9 @bambi-kinos

three ships: McLennon, Semen and Gay Uncle (is there a name for it?), Dylarrison

first ship: McLennon

last song: "Morse Moorse And The Grey Goose" by Wings

last TV show: I don't watch TV shows

currently watching: Understanding Lennon/McCartney

currently reading: "Why Sinéad O'Connor Matters" by Allyson McCabe

currently eating: pierogi

currently craving: attention

[got-ticket-to-ride]

13 for the Beatles ask game :)

13. If you could travel back in time to one Beatles event, which would it be?

Acid trips. The first time when Paul dropped acid with John. I would drop acid with them and join their trip, WHAT DID THEY SEE? WHY WAS REVOLVER SO GOOD? WHY WAS JOHN THE EMPEROR OF THE UNIVERSE?

Why did Paul drop acid with Tara first and invited him to the family Christmas party and not John? I love me a good Hallmark movie, where the childhood friend (John) is jealous and the rich, privileged guy (Tara) gets to impress the family in the small town.

WHY PAUL, WHY?

(also wasted this question because I should've gone to one of their concerts or fucking went to Hamburg and joined their flea infested mattresses at Bambi Kinos. Rat boys for life).

[buckybarnesss]

I NEED more critics to start praising Diego's acting, because if everyone but him gets nominated for awards cause of big speeches they've been given, it's gonna be Brasso with Maarva's brick for me. I think he was better than everyone else in the series, i have actor friends and for a period of time used to watch many interviews with actors and all said that they'd take 3 page monologue any day over a long silent and reaction scene, because saying stuff is easy, not saying is hard. Anyway, already miss Cassian, dont know how to wait 2 years for his return 😭

i hear you.

this show has an absolutely amazing cast from the top down but none of it would've worked without digeo luna putting his whole self into his performance.

the slow progression and growth of cassian plays out not with bombastic speeches or quippy one liners but in the subtle way his expression changes, how he holds himself or how he speaks. i loved every choice he made in how he translated cassian to screen. the entirety of episode 8 was masterclass. that scene between him and kino where the power dynamic just switches [chef's kiss]. or when he kills skeen? when he learns about maarva's death? the end where he tells luthen to kill him or take him in? or something smaller like him hugging brasso tightly? i loved every second of it.

i think he has a lovely screen presence. he's charming and has a warmth to him that makes me want to watch him and believe in the sincerity of the performance.

and diego's big ol' bambi eyes get you too. right in the heart.

[get-back-homeward]

Davidwache Police Station | Painting by Klaus Voormann Prior to being deported, Paul McCartney spends a night in the Davidwache police station.

In the meantime, the final four could start playing [at the Top Ten club] now, and move themselves into the bunk-bed accommodation at the top of the building.c Tony Sheridan was already here, possibly others too, and the Beatles were welcome to shoehorn themselves in. It was neither the Ritz nor the pits. John was the first to move. Then Paul and Pete went back to the Bambi to grab their gear.

The place was in near darkness, as usual. They had to strike a match to see their way about … and then they decided to leave Koschmider a little gift. Pete had a few “spunk bags,” and he and Paul had the idea to hang them on nails in the wall in the long concrete passageway and set light to them. “The place was dank and dark,” says Pete. “They spluttered, they stank, and OK, maybe they singed a tiny bit of tapestry on the wall. It caused nothing but a little smoke and a few scorch marks and then they went out.”41 It was the ultimate fuck you, Bruno, or so they thought.

They got to play one night in the Top Ten, and it seems to have been a good one, pulling business away from the Kaiserkeller, but it was just this one night. Having been shafted once by Eckhorn, when he’d prized away the Jets and Tony Sheridan from the Kaiserkeller, Koschmider wasn’t going to sit back and let it happen again. He might also have guessed the Beatles would make some grand gesture for his “benefit”—they could even have hinted of it—because an inspection was made of the Bambi’s rooms very quickly. When the stinkende qualmende Piedeltüten were found, he decided to form the view it was an attempt to burn down his cinema, and informed the police.

The chronology of events over the next twenty-four hours is rife with confusion and contradiction, but may have gone something like this. Paul was picked up by the police while walking along the Reeperbahn, taken by car to the Davidwache police station (two hundred meters from the Top Ten) and locked in a cell. Pete and John were also arrested. Koschmider didn’t know which of them was responsible for the “attempted arson,” so the Polizei rounded them all up. As Stuart wrote in a letter back to Liverpool a few days later:

I am living in the lap of luxury and contentment. Better than the cell I spent a night in last week. I was innocent this time though accused of arson—that is, setting fire to the Kino (cinema) where we sleep. I arrive at the club and am informed that the whole of Hamburg Police are looking for me. The rest of the band are already locked up, so smiling and very brave on the arm of Astrid, I proceed to give myself up. At this time I’m not aware of the charge. All my belongings, including spectacles, are taken away and I’m led to a cell where without food or drink I sat for six hours on a very wooden bench, the door shut very tight. I fall asleep at two in the morning. I signed a confession written in Deutsch that I knew nothing about a fire, and they let me go.42

John was also allowed to go. It was now clear who’d done the dirty deed, and for them the ordeal continued; Paul would always remember the little one-way peephole in the door of their detention room, through which he sensed they were watched. It seems he and Pete were then allowed to leave, but a few hours later—early the following morning—they were dragged out of their Top Ten bunk beds and interviewed a second time. Pete suggests they were taken to Hamburg’s main prison at Fühlsbuttel, Paul remembers it being “the Rathaus … it doesn’t mean rat house, it just felt like one.” They were interviewed by an official of the Bundeskriminalamt (Federal CID), one Herr Gerkins, and it was definitely inadvisable to snigger. Instead, they requested permission to contact the British Embassy, like people did in the films, and were refused; then they were taken for a car ride. “We tried our best to persuade him it was nothing,” Paul says, “and he said, ‘OK fine, well you go with these men.’ And that was the last we knew of it. We just headed out with these couple of coppers. And we were getting a bit ‘Oh dear, this could be the concentration camps’—you never know. It hadn’t been that long [since the war].”43

Criminal charges were not pressed, but Koschmider, inevitably, had the last laugh. It wasn’t a camp to which Paul and Pete were being taken, but the airport—and in handcuffs, according to Stuart. They were being deported, and banned from reentering Germany unless they lodged an appeal within a month. Auf Wiedersehen, Piedels! Handed their passports at the gate, they were put on the London plane, set to fly for the first time in their lives. It then got even tastier for Koschmider because Eckhorn was billed for at least part of the cost of the plane tickets. Bruno must have been rubbing his hands with joy.

—Tune In, Ch. 17 (Oct 1–Dec 31, 1960)

Sources: 41 Author interview, March 7, 1985. Pete says (Beatle!, p72) there were four rubbers and always speaks of them in plural, Paul speaks of one. 42 December 12, 1960, sent to Ken Horton. This letter provides the only suggestion that John was arrested in the roundup; he’s not mentioned in other accounts. 43 Interview by Paul Gambaccini, Rolling Stone, June 12, 1979. Rathaus means “city hall.” Instead of the main prison at Fühlsbuttel, it’s more likely Paul and Pete were taken to the remand prison near St. Pauli called Untersuchungsgefängnis (easier done than said).

[groovybananastarfish]

Bottom one is outside the Bambi Kino 1960

[beatleskinkmeme]

ik it turned out that this (www tumblr com/bambi-kinos/738990012016820224/howdoyoulikethemeggrollsdavid-hockney-paul) isn't actually Paul.. but can we pls make these dreams a reality 🙏 Paul / spanking / any man 🙏🙏

[muzaktomyears]

They argued as usual amongst themselves, but most of all they picked on Stu, the newest member of the group. John, George and Paul had been with each other long enough to know that rows and arguments and criticism didn't mean much. If it did, you just argued back.

"We were terrible," says John. "We'd tell Stu he couldn't sit with us, or eat with us. We'd tell him to go away, and he did." At one hotel they stayed at, a variety show had just left. There had been a dwarf in the show and they found out which bed he had slept in and said that would have to be Stu's. They certainly weren't going to sleep in it. So Stu had to. "That was how he learned to be with us," says John. "It was all stupid, but that was what we were like."

[...]

The Beatles had lots of little arguments amongst themselves, but nothing serious. It was mainly Stu and Pete, the relatively new boys, being picked on by the rest. Stu took it to heart, but Pete didn't seem to notice. It all passed over his head. He can't remember being involved in any rows or anyone criticizing him or mocking him, though the others do.

The Beatles: The Authorised Biography (Hunter Davies)

[lingeronyourhazeleyes]

It's the first time i've been tagged in anything like this, and i'm so excited. Thank you so much, @the-boney-rolls 🥰

And this is the part where I shoul tag five people i want to get to know better. I don't know if anyone has tagged you yet, but let's try @franklyimissparis , @glowing-gold , @big-barn-bed, @undying-love and @bambi-kinos, if any you feel like itˇˇ

Okay, let's see! *rubs her hands together*

three ships: McLennon (duh :D), Milex, aaaand, uh, let's be nostalgic and go with Zutara

first ship: not sure, but i think it was Rogue/Gambit from the X-Men: Evolution cartoon

last song: Barns Courtney - National Treasure (just realised a few days ago that he released a new album and i can't stop listening to it)

last TV show: Ted Lasso

currently watching: Doctor Who i guess? idk not really watching series lately. I stopped with the new season after a few episodes (and i don't even know why, cause i really liked it so far) but i will finish it someday i swear

currently reading: the amazing Heart Of Glass by the wonderful @javelinbk. As for traditional books, i recently had a whim to catch up on some classics i missed in high school, so i started The Picture of Dorian Gray a couple weeks ago, but somehow i haven't had the time or energy to pick it up again since (even though i quite enjoyed it).

currently eating: just finished a Kinder Choco Fresh

currently craving: an espresso (but i just had one so i really should wait at least a couple hours before making another one)

[bewareofdarkness]

Thanks for the tag @justanothershadeofblue

rules: list your top 5 albums from your top 5 artists (can't have a repeat of the same artist) on a poll, so your followers can vote which album they think captures your vibe the best

@izzymrdb @iliyad @bambi-kinos

[bambi-kinos]

excerpts from the McLennon server (hamburg part 1)

This is Part One of an ongoing conversation in the McLennon server about John and Paul in Hamburg. Part Two is here: https://www.tumblr.com/bambi-kinos/718388247258136576/excerpts-from-the-mclennon-server-hamburg-part-2

In Part One of the Hamburg Conversation, we discuss why John and Paul ended up being so close after their stint in Hamburg during 1960, since this was the period where the Exis ostracized Paul and John and Stuart were up each other’s asses a lot.

***

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 4:10 PM alright beatle babes big fucking thunks time

1960 kinda sucked for Paul, Hamburg was the big thing and John was busy hanging out with Stuart and the Exis and was super teenagery about it. Paul felt abandoned and was super teenagery about it. There were a lot of sex workers, beer, and amphetamine pills going around. Gangsters roamed about, mostly not giving a shit about the Beatles tbh. They re-discovered girls. Paul gets deported.

Then we hit 1961 and this is happening: https://twitter.com/BeatlesArchive2/status/1630289665323589632?s=20

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 4:19 PM Stuart stayed with Astrid and John seemed to be okay with this whereas he went to extreme lengths to separate Paul from his dad upon returning to Liverpool (which was a good thing), Paris happened, Stuart and Paul had a fistfight on stage where John de facto chose Paul by not disciplining him over the fight. What changed

Personally I think Hamburg changed how John viewed Paul. He got to see Paul in an adult context for the first time. I legit don't think John saw Paul as anything other than another friend -- that's not because of Rule 10, that's something I really believe. John simply didn't take Paul seriously until they got to Hamburg. They were friends and they had a tight bond thanks to Mary/Julia's passing, I don't doubt for a second that their friendship was already very close. John knew Paul was attractive but I don't think he fully put together what that meant until later. Hamburg slowly transmuted that into something else for John, he saw Paul in a brand new context and watched him flourish into a young adult away from the childhood context of Liverpool. And that lead him somewhere else.

Stuart didn't have prospects in Liverpool, his application to be a TA had already been rejected so he was ready to move on. John was able to respect that and let Stu go....because he figured out what he wanted. So he pursued Paul and very heavily too.

louiselux — 02/27/2023 4:33 PM Paul said that they felt somehow they were headed for big things, but i wonder when that feeling coalesced for them? Maybe beyond all the teen psychodrama, the side effect of Hamburg was getting technically good for the first time, and that’s when that feeling happened, like a mutual sense growing of ‘this man can take me places’

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 4:34 PM ohhh i like this

louiselux — 02/27/2023 4:38 PM You know, them getting to know all these other bands and maybe realising that Lennon/McCartney together was a different better creature

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 4:40 PM Especially since they were experimenting with the songwriting at that point. Not a whole lot but they were doing it, that was a way for them to distinguish themselves from the other bands. They were trying to find their niche and the Lennon/McCartney thing started clicking into place.

louiselux — 02/27/2023 4:41 PM Also very much YES to your point about Paul becoming a hot adult man rather than cute boy baby

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 4:42 PM So you take the hypercharged atmosphere of Hamburg, put that with them starting to push themselves creatively and not just do cover songs....

louiselux — 02/27/2023 4:42 PM And Paul growing shoulders and forearm hair

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 4:47 PM Maybe they also set their flirting pattern in Hamburg -- John being an ass, Paul being cold in response to get John's attention, making each other jealous on purpose etc. Even if they didn't realize what they were doing in the moment.

I'm fascinated at how much of a slow motion thing it all was, this attraction between them. It wasn't sudden, it was a long burning thing. They spent that first trip getting with women, boozing, going pro, there's the psychodrama going on in the background and John's very intense no matter what.... And when it all finally ended John sought out Paul in Liverpool....

louiselux — 02/27/2023 5:09 PM It's clear that they excited each other in various ways ever since they first met, but it seems like it did take a while to click into place. With Stu, I really get the sense that John had met someone he thought of as his equal at that time, in adulthood and sensibilities, and that he didn't consider Paul an equal in that way. So maybe that is the thing we are tracking here, the realisation that Paul is like...The One? Over those Hamburg years

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 5:19 PM yeah! I think that's it exactly :ogeyes: Stuart was loved and lovable to John but Paul had a special impact

mynamesbetty — 02/27/2023 6:53 PM John had his blinders on to everything but success as a musician - he'd failed out of art school and couldn't hold down a regular job, so he made music his life

Before Hamburg Paul had prospects to continue in school and go to university, and he was still living at home and listening to his father (where John had stopped caring what Mimi said and may have moved out into the flat on Gambier Terrace by this point

In Hamburg, Paul starves and stinks and plays 6-8 hours a night, just like John, putting his all into the group and mach schau and living in squalor for the music

Where Stu was never that enthusiastic about the group, John had to convince him to buy an instrument and join, and when he met Astrid it was a done deal

So John can let go of someone who's already letting go of him because it's obvious what's happening and Stu is going to be happier an an artist, and they're good enough friends to accept this

But he looks at Paul, who's working just as hard as he is to make the Beatles a success, and something clicks for him

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 7:14 PM something clicks for him...

Morrigan — 02/27/2023 9:18 PM I, too, find this time fascinating. I agree that while he was drawn to him and attracted to him (maybe even subconsciously), John didn’t see Paul as an equal adult quote yet. Two years difference can feel quite big at that age.  But then I also find it fascinating that John said they were both horrible to Stu in Hamburg. I wouldn’t put it past John to have played them against each other, especially after Stu got with Astrid

Misery — 02/27/2023 9:27 PM Trying to see which one of them would stick it out through his behaviour maybe

mynamesbetty — 02/27/2023 9:32 PM Always hiding his soft mushy center under a hard layer of nasty humor and bad behavior

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 9:32 PM John absolutely played them off each other. He was a jerk to both of them in Hamburg and would team up with the other one, peak frat bro honestly.

mynamesbetty — 02/27/2023 9:32 PM King John sits on his throne and says "which one of you loves me more?"

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 9:33 PM 😂 but also 😭

Misery — 02/27/2023 9:33 PM Mhm mhm mhm

This exactly

VeggieRavioli — 02/27/2023 9:37 PM Tony Sheridan quote RE: J&P in Hamburg that’s relevant here

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 9:39 PM They were like two pieces of a jigsaw puzzle: they needed each other and fitted together.

pain

It was very menacing for me to hear the Liverpool accent when it was aggressive, especially when it was John. He was so caustic, and though he never scared me he could cut you down with a couple of words and a glance, and did. We got on OK because he had a bit of respect for me - I'd been on the telly - but we never got close. He was full of complexes, and to compensate for that he had a big ego. He was the intellectual and extrovert driving force, the natural leader. Paul was very talented, a frisky kind of guy, completely extrovert. His whole life was the show.

interesting that he characterizes both of them as extroverted

VeggieRavioli — 02/27/2023 9:49 PM there's another quote in my head that I can't find, about how the interplay between John and Paul was the epicenter of the Beatles' mach shau-ing in Hamburg

Hamburg is where they truly tapped into their onstage chemistry. They might not have been songwriting during this time - too exhausted and overworked for that obv - but it's where they realized how their partnership could electrify an entire room, not just their music and their singing

mynamesbetty — 02/27/2023 9:52 PM Lesley-Ann Jones, The Search for John Lennon, on John's motivations for having Stu in the band - she's harsher on him than I would be but I can't say she's completely wrong

But John can't needle and bitch about Paul's musicianship to make himself feel better because Paul is just as good and maybe ever more talented than John, so he stops complaining where Paul is concerned and starts thinking about what they can accomplish together

Morrigan — 02/27/2023 9:54 PM It’s truly fascinating how evident that was to so many people I think the whole Stu situation was majorly messy…teenagers or young adults in over their heads..ego, sexuality, hormones and messy emotions running rampant all of the place …add to that drugs and alcohol. It must’ve been fascinating to watch from afar though

VeggieRavioli — 02/27/2023 9:57 PM I don't agree with the latter part of this passage tbh, John didn't need any propping up in terms of having his ability recognized versus Paul's

mynamesbetty — 02/27/2023 9:58 PM Yeah, that part I disagree with from our outside perspective, but John was always insecure about his abilities as a musician

Morrigan — 02/27/2023 9:59 PM Yeah I also disagree on that part

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 10:01 PM John respected that core of iron, the fact that he couldn't maneuver Paul endlessly fascinated him. I still don't know how to judge John's feelings about his own musicianship, I guess that's where the competitive aspect comes in, but it is fascinating that he decided to prioritize the health of the band over his personal feelings about Paul's abilities.

mynamesbetty — 02/27/2023 10:02 PM John's nascent case of imposter syndrome couldn't stand up to the blazing pillar of self confidence that was eighteen year old stinky rat boy Paul McCartney

VeggieRavioli — 02/27/2023 10:06 PM but the part about Stu entrancing the chicks is dead on lol — of all the Beatles, was Stu the first to provoke an on-sight orgasm out of the audience?? We will never know

louiselux — 02/28/2023 3:12 AM He’s gonna ride that stinky rat boy all the way to the top!

louiselux — 02/28/2023 3:30 AM John seemed to be very incisive about people’s musical abilities in general, but seemed to get stuck when assessing his own.

alfenbalf — 02/28/2023 3:54 AM Tony Sheridan giving off big "I'm from Norfolk" energy here. Baby, John has the softest, gentlest Liverpool accent ever

I love Klaus

louiselux — 02/28/2023 4:14 AM Ha! That explains it - John's accent is the softest

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/28/2023 8:22 PM John had the classic "mildly clever kid trapped in the american school system" problem where he was able to coast on his natural gifts for years and then struggled to respond to situations that challenged his abilities. And then he has the help/hindrance of being with Paul and Paul is able to challenge him, and get his skill levels up, but Paul was also a crutch for him in a lot of ways so John didn't learn how to deal with challenges on his own. Most people wouldn't in his situation.

People like John benefit immensely from mentorships preferably from a young age. Hence the proliferation of masterful artists during the Renaissance. In ideal circumstances John would have been apprenticed to someone as eclectic as he was who could educate him and grow his talents. His real talent lay in the fact that he was able to self teach everything he needed to know.

He really was a natural leader.

mynamesbetty — 02/28/2023 8:25 PM That rich old lady (or man) to support him while he focused on his art never materialized so he pulled his socks up and did it all himself