#baela's characterization

[maglors-grief]

Can they please start giving Baela and Rhaena some lines this season 😭 They really didn't let them say one thing in s2e1, even though Lucerys was Rhaena's betrothed!! They said so little in season 1 that I can't even remember any quotes from them. This show has wronged so many characters and Baela and Rhaena are at the top of that list.

[horizon-verizon]

Responding to this series of reblogs by @kataraavatara as I can't reblog.

You know, this is just the ole' "Rhaenyra was not a feminist" talking point these people love to make to try to say Rhaenyra's claim was somehow innately a dangerous thing, that her rule would be disastrous to Westeros AND THUS you shouldn't pay attention or think about why she should rule. You should not appreciate the depth and scope of the pattern against women here. How all the things that happened to her weren't that bad, femicide or not.

Bc they imply that she would be just as destructive as other nobles or royals AND she sought to disrupt the existing (read: "good") patriarchal status quo in a way they'll never directly admit she could (bc they will always deny how she ushers in more room for possible legal protections or leadership for women of other houses who could do the same). Because she deserved her fate, that violence, and her losses for being that assertive.

Rhaenyra didn't disinherit anyone bc Corlys is the one, not Rhaenyra, who gets to decide who his heirs are. And no, she couldn't "convince him" otherwise, bc he is the bulk of most of her support to get back the throne in the first place. Even if she wanted to somehow force him, he could just ignore her, pack it up with Rhaenys or her corpse, and refuse to supply his fleet. Then the black side is splintered/weakened at a time where the greens have even more of an edge (Rhaenyra doesn't know). Which could/would have affected how others feel about supporting Rhaenyra (exposed) both bc they really don't want to expect she'd try to force them to put their daughters befores one AND bc they likely did not want to fightr a war w/o said Velaryon fleet or without any finds Corlys could provide...and he's too prestigious socially.

It's so funny when people refuse to recognize the hard spots women are pushed into to gain agency or power under these patriarchal designs but will sexist-ly blame the woman (wee see how true this was)! Similar to what they do to Rhaena the Black Bride, Viserra, Lyanna, etc.

Like these people are underestimating Corlys' significance to the blacks and his pride., implying that Rhaenyra was a powerful force in her own right to make him bow or persuade him to, while also constantly saying she was a weak and ineffective leader. And if they were inclined to say Daemon pushed his wife around or ruled through her or whatever, it would follow that he could have pressed Corlys...but no, it is evident in canon not even this mad, tyrannical, strongman could intimidate Corlys into being any sort of obsequious or obedient ancillary of him or Rhaenyra! (his counseling Rhaenyra twice, and there's only a compromise)

So what exactly, in their "Rhaenyra is a weakling" model made them think RHAENYRA would be able?! Not even Daemon--the resident evil tyrant dude many of the greens love to use against people in this fandom and Rhaenyra--could do anything to make Corlys name his own daughters above any Velaryon male nor Rhaenyra's sons nor any boys either girl would bear in their marriages! What are we doing?!!!

[navree]

The Velaryons siding with Team Black gets even more ridiculous when you consider that Daemon threw a tantrum (shocker) around the time of the Great Council of 101 AC when Rhaenys was even considered as a candidate opposing Viserys. This fool allegedly gathered together enough resources in preparation to rebel against the crown if it looked like Rhaenys would be selected as heir apparent instead of heir presumptive. Why she would ever forget something like that and allow Laena anywhere near Daemon is beyond my understanding.

None of the Velaryons should be on Team Black at all.

Corlys doesn't particularly like Viserys at all and has been routinely disrespected by him, not just in the matter of being purposefully led on with regards to the Laena marriage but even in how he's treated in Council. He's also absolutely got a grudge about Rhaenys not being on the throne and feeling shafted as a result, not to mention Daemon summarily executed a member of his family without trial, and the disrespect shown to his House should be enough to at least want him to remain neutral.

Rhaenys absolutely doesn't like Rhaenyra, she was deeply antagonistic towards her the second she was proclaimed heir (out of jealousy I guess????) and was also convinced that it wouldn't work out. Not to mention, even beyond how she was treated with the Great Council, look at her kids. Daemon kept Laena away from her family for a good number of years and then she died, only to behave like an ass at her funeral and get married well before was considered appropriate. Rhaenyra "disrespected" Laenor with the Harwin Strong affair and their children, which we know Rhaenys was aware of because she brings it up to Corlys. And she thinks Rhaenyra killed Laenor to marry Daemon, because Rhaenyra has deliberately made it look like she had Laenor murdered, which alone gives her every right to hate Rhaenyra until the end of time. There's no way she would agree to betrothing her granddaughters to the Strongs, there's no way she'd go to Rhaenyra's side in the civil war she predicted just because Rhaenyra hadn't burned Dragonstone down in twelve hours, honestly the character they've written likely should have agreed to Alicent's proposals because that whole "we don't rule ourselves but heavily influence those that do and wield power that way" is literally what she already does with Corlys.

Baela, again, shouldn't be on board with Team Black either. Like I said, she was shunted off to Driftmark because Daemon the Targaryen supremacist wanted to devote all his time and energy to his pureblood Targaryen marriage and subsequent pureblood Targaryen children at the expense of his daughters. And while on Driftmark, she watches Rhaenys rule it alone, act as Lord of the Tides herself. And I'm meant to think she never once thought about how Driftmark should have been Laena's by rights, as Corlys's eldest, and thus her's by rights, as Laena's eldest? She's fine being a consort, a position with considerably less power, to Jace, who she does not know at all because she's spent all her time in either Pentos or Driftmark, while her inheritance, her rights, get passed not even to her little sister, but to some kid who isn't even Laenor's? No, why should she be on board with that after her treatment and how she's been raised? Even if she doesn't have any issues with Rhaenyra herself, the disrespect shown to her and her family by Rhaenyra's faction isn't something she should look past.

Rhaena meanwhile has been treated apparently like shit by Daemon her entire life, all because she didn't have a dragon (and because Daemon is a giant flaming asshole). And like her sister, she has to settle for being a consort, but even worse, to someone who, according to the laws of their country, has absolutely no right to the inheritance he's getting, which should be either her sister's or her's. Again, even if there's no issue with Rhaenyra on Rhaena's end, the treatment from Rhaenyra's allies like Viserys and Daemon is bad enough that it should give her pause. Plus, both Rhaena and Baela were dragged to watch their father get immediately remarried to someone else after their mother just died, that doesn't engender much love towards him or his new wife, who they had only met like two days ago.

None of the Velaryons should support Team Black at all, because the treatment they've received from people who were firmly on board with Rhaenyra's succession (or at least came on board eventually) has been atrocious since Rhaenys was first denied the Iron Throne all those years ago. And you might say "but that's petty why can't they just supported Rhaenyra because of feminism", but 1) feminism does not exist in Westeros, the concept of a movement towards female empowerement and equal treatment does not exist in this country or in the minds of its people, everything is on a case by case basis which is why Rhaenyra herself keeps to male dominated primogeniture when dealing with issues of succession 2) yeah it's petty and selfish, but this is a dynastic struggle between one (1) family. None of them are in this for altruistic reasons, everyone's looking out for themselves and are motivated by their emotions and their desires, not any lofty goals or ambitions. Everyone is selfish here, the Velaryons have the right to be selfish too especially to advance their own self interests.

[atopvisenyashill]

it could be the writing not the casting but rhaenys and baela are not headstrong and wild enough

it’s 100% the writing, I think they suffer from like, the same thing indira varma and gemma whelan or even oona chaplin did which is that they have good casting for the ACTUAL CHARACTER but the writing is so bad so you’re listening to ellaria hiss at doran about how dorne will not be ruled by weak men and you’re like “what the fuck just happened.”

like the fact that iirc it was daemon in the original script who has to hold baela back from decking Aemond during the family dinner but they changed it in the show, or they jusr straight up don’t even FOCUS THE CAMERA on rhaena during a scene where she’s just got engaged and is clearly very pleased by the match like……smh. really racebent the dragon twins so they could shuffle them off to the side and nevermind that they are important political players after the war, or that rhaena is the last dragon rider (until dany).

[bohemian-nights]

It's time for people to accept that Daemon is a terrible father, and it's ok lol

There is no denying he’s a sh*tty father and he’s sh*tty in ways that don’t even make sense.

How do you hate the Targtowers, you have an excuse to attack them, and yet you sit back and watch your underage daughter being harassed by a creepy pervert. Did the show forget that Baela indeed is his biological daughter? Even if he’s sh*tty he should still want to defend her because of his own pride and hate. He does nothing and it pisses me off.

[princesssszzzz]

Rhaena deserves be the symbol of hope for the Targaryen dynasty. She’s the last dragon rider and has pure Valyrian blood. An arc with her wanting to unify both factions of the family but to no prevail as it’s out of control. After the war, she works to pick up the pieces and bring benevolence to the Hightowers. Daemon wanting to “restore the dynasty” but the daughter he ignores actually takes steps in doing so while he’s killing dragons. It’s *chefs kiss* writing. She’ll finally get a dragon and feel officially Targaryen but only after the family is torn apart so she wants to become peacemaker. This fits her so much more than fans urging the writers to make her claim a dragon and become just another dragonrider with no purpose other than being on a team and fighter. She’s not a fighter, she’s a lover and unifier.

[alicentsaegon]

Wish I lived in the magical alternate reality where Team Green is portrayed favorably and the writers are biased for them, like Team Black fans claims they are

[dulcewrites]

Oh my goodness Rhaena telling everyone

“Yeah having a dragon and sex is cool but have you tried being cute and manipulating people in the middle of a civil war?” They can’t call her a dragonless loser if she messes with their heads 😏

Yeah I just hope they do not focus on her needing a dragon. She can do so much that doesn’t require one. She’s far more capable of being a diplomat compared to others in family. I’m kind of suspicious bc in ep 10 when daemon is talking about unclaimed dragons they flash to her. Hopefully that’s just a teaser for her getting morning’s egg and not her claiming some old dragon.

That being said, I am interested in her and baela’s response to nettles. More their response to their dad being obsessed with a girl that’s young enough to be his kid… all bc of a dragon. I want some sort of payoff with their relationship. It made me mad that we got the lines about him ignoring rhaena then no payoff. Like even laena is just like “he tries his best”…. Weird response to hearing your husband ignores your kids but ok 🤨

[daeneryseastar]

a scene we should have actually got! instead they gave us feetfinder.com, teen aegon jerking off, and the continuous addition of unnecessary brutality against women 😓

BAELA TARGARYEN in HOUSE OF THE DRAGON Dialogue from the Season 1 Deleted Scene

[normalbrothers]

hotd episode had lots of moments i liked some were a little ??? to me, but also i have to rewatch with subtitles + there needs to be more than one episode out for me to form an opinion on a season anyway (like yk when it's completed)

[horizon-verizon]

The ongoing argument about Aegon’s relationships—whether he should have remained with Jaehaera or Daenaera—mirrors discussions surrounding Jace’s potential pairings, particularly the belief that his story would be more 'interesting' if linked to a [x] white character rather than Baela. There’s this persistent notion that Aegon’s relationship with Jaehaera would somehow be deeper and more meaningful than his potential connection with Daenaera, which makes one wonder what people are really valuing here. It’s hard to ignore the subtle biases at play. What annoys me the most is the implication that Baela, who’s all about fierce independence and bravery, can’t have a romantic storyline without losing her edge. There’s this troubling notion that strength and love are somehow incompatible—like Baela can’t have her agency if she’s with Jace. Why can’t Baela be both fierce and capable of love/be in love? This same mindset applies to Rhaena as well. She’s only allowed to wield “respectable” forms of power—like her intelligence, ability to navigate political relationships, or role in scheming. But the moment she taps into the Targaryen legacy, like bonding with a dragon, people seem to lose interest in her character or condemn her, as if that somehow reduces her to being like any other Targaryen with a dragon. I would have liked to see a more compelling take on her. But when people start saying she should prove her worth in more "acceptable" ways and imply that embracing her heritage makes her less interesting—that’s where they lose me. Why should Rhaena have to distance herself from such a core part of her Targaryen identity to be seen as complex? Whether it’s the belief that Daenaera isn’t "deep" enough compared to Jaehaera because she doesn’t fit the tragic, tortured mold that people find so compelling in Jaehaera...that doesn’t make Daenaera less worthy or interesting. Why can’t Daenaera be both kind-hearted and compelling in her own right? Why can’t Baela have a love story without losing her strength? Why can’t Rhaena embrace her heritage and still be strong on her own? Why do these characters have to sacrifice one aspect for another?

this better not be lifted. Yes, it's that deep.

There’s this troubling notion that strength and love are somehow incompatible—like Baela can’t have her agency if she’s with Jace. Why can’t Baela be both fierce and capable of love/be in love?

---

But the moment she [Rhaena] taps into the Targaryen legacy, like bonding with a dragon, people seem to lose interest in her character or condemn her, as if that somehow reduces her to being like any other Targaryen with a dragon.[...]she should prove her worth in more "acceptable" ways and imply that embracing her heritage makes her less interesting[...]Why should Rhaena have to distance herself from such a core part of her Targaryen identity to be seen as complex?

--- (Daenaera is obvious)

These are all pretty insightful, & all try to make the excuse & misnomer of "complexity" to deny each HotD-universed Black woman that would make her both power and something like love, self-affirmative or social. It's like they want Baela and Rhaena specifically to token strong-sex/love-less-black-women. what they really mean by "compelling" is "attractive" or "appealing", and Black women with graceful power/power-and-"soft" simply aren't as appealing as assigning that back to white/white-coded characters.

Aegon and Jaehaera would never be able to be "compelling" as an actual relationship, because they'd just try to stay out of each other's way; there can't be "complexity" if the characters don't interact often enough! but that doesn't matter, bc they also need the white girl to perform white-girl-suffering to fulfill that itch of self-indulgence.

[navree]

me @ you calling Lucerys boring! 😆 come on, he's just a kid! cutting out aemond's eye was bad, i agree, but i don't think he was as bland as everyone says. his imposter syndrome in 8 and 10 was interesting to watch at least. he was a brave little boy.

I mean I don't really see anything brave about bringing a knife to a fight he not only had fuck all to do with but where he was clearly at fault (Aemond did nothing wrong, he tamed a free dragon, Baela and Rhaena get a pass because they're grieving but Jace and Luke had no business being involved and certainly no business escalating into 4 v 1 violence against the clear cut victim), trying to literally murder someone because I don't know what the fuck you're trying to do when you stab a knife at someone's face but it's certainly not a warning shot, showing zero remorse for it at all, and at worse acting like a little snot when in the same room with your victim. The fact that Luke got away with this scot free (didn't he literally say "I didn't do anything" you boring little asshole you stabbed out someone's eye that is the opposite of not doing anything!) is an absolute travesty of justice that stains everyone involved (mostly Viserys and Luke but I'm not letting Rhaenyra "pls torture the ten year old stabbing victim until he tells me how he figured out that these white dark haired children aren't the sons of my black platinum blond husband" Targaryen off the hook either). Aemond could have died, not only from the initial wound, but from the myriad of infections or other issues that could have plagued him during the healing process. For God's sake, Viserys nicks himself on the Iron Throne and they have to lop off his arm, his infected injuries and their treatment have already made him pretty firmly decrepit by Driftmark, the fact that Aemond healed without any serious and lifelong and further damaging complication is a goddamn miracle. And even kids know that murder is bad, I'm pretty sure that if I were Lucerys's age and I tried to commit homicide I'd have to deal with some consequences.

And I'm sorry, but I call him boring because he is! They wrote a boring character! That's not on me for picking up on it, that's on the writers and the myriad choices they made that led to them severely underdeveloping several characters, most prominently Lucerys (Jace and Baela and Rhaena at least get another season of life to develop further, Luke gets four episodes and they knew that going in). This is a song I've been singing literally since the show was airing and it's not gonna change, cuz he's dead and therefore stuck with his boring character and complete lack of characterization.

Him being a kid is not a character trait, and it certainly doesn't make him more interesting anymore than, say, his eye color would. The impostor syndrome thing they kinda tried didn't really work because 1) it's not impostor syndrome if it's true, he's not a Velaryon and Vaemond was 99% in the right in that entire thing (I don't like him throwing out misogynistic slurs, you can point out that these aren't Velaryons but Strong bastards without stooping to calling Rhaenyra a whore, I hate men sometimes) 2) in episode 8 it exists for one single line and is not a driving force for him at all for the remainder of the episode to the point that it could be cut out and mean nothing, especially since that scene was only there to introduce adult Aemond and 3) it doesn't even make sense because the person who was set up as having issues with his lack of Velaryon heritage and Harwin being his father was Jace. Jace is the one who hears the rumors and clocks it early on in childhood, Jace is the one who is deeply affected by it to the point of bitterness towards his own mother, Jace is the one who grieves Harwin but also feels angry that he can't express it. All of that was set up as part of Jace's arc, not at all Luke's, who is literally set dressing up until he decides to commit criminal offenses in the middle of the night. And then time skip, and suddenly Jace is A-OK and Luke, who has shown no issue before now (or any personality at all) is slightly concerned about it for one line in episode 8 before going back to being a piece of cardboard until episode 10.

And I'll be honest, the second that scene came out in episode 10, I immediately saw it for what it was, which was a very obvious patch job. The writers were clearly aware that they had not given the viewers any reason at all to care about Luke one way or another, so we weren't going to feel a lot when Vhagar (deservedly, imo) munches on him. So they hastily added in this really heavy-handed scene of poor uwu soft boy Lukey who is so concerned with doing right and needs to blink up tearfully at Mommy and be her sweet boy and get little kisses to assuage his worries, so that we'd feel some emotion and then be said when he becomes the Jonah to Vhagar's whale. It just doesn't work because there was nothing for him before then and therefore I don't care, I just feel bad Rhaenyra.

Luke is a bland and boring character. That's not an attack, that's just what the writers did. They tried to cram too much into a ten episode season, literally twenty years of history, and it caused a lot of characterization problems for a lot of characters, particularly for the Team Black ones. And a consequence of that is that the character with the least amount of time for development got not development and no personality. He's a plank of wood, he's a platonic version of the sexy lamp trope; there's nothing there and he exists only for us to feel bad when the lamp is smashed. Seriously, name me five individual character traits that Lucerys has. He's a momma's boy, even though I'm not really sure that's a character trait but I'll give it to him, and I guess he's devoid of empathy, considering that he doesn't appear to feel literally any remorse for mutilating Aemond (seriously, is it like the Dothraki and "thank you"? does the word "sorry" not exist in Valyrian languages? you can't even send an apology gift basket or a note?). But he's not brave, as there is no scene that shows any bravery or courage, and he's not noble or kind or thoughtful because there's nothing that shows any of that, or anything that shows him being the opposite, cruel or cowardly or weak, because he's a basically a character who could be played by sticking a wig on a mop and waving it around. And any characterization of insecurity exists as something hamfistedly crowbarred in at the last minute in his final episode to try to manipulate the audience's emotions with less sensitivity than D&D trying to tug at our heartstrings by having Drogon try to nudge Dany awake after she's killed.

But there is a character that I do consider to be a brave little boy, though I regret to inform y'all that it is Not a fourteen year old with no depth or personality or written characterization whose main claim to fame is maiming a person without apology and then dying. Nah, the brave little boy title goes to post-Driftmark Aemond. Aemond, at ten, is delivered a life altering injury whose recovery was likely very slow and very painful, involved a lot of worry about whether he'd have to deal with infection or further risk of death, and had to relearn how to do literally everything now that he was half blind, and he did all of it. He survived, and he thrived. He relearned how to walk, how to balance, his spatial awareness. He learned how to fought and even became incredibly good at it, and maintained his bond with Vhagar, as well as trying to keep himself mentally sharp as well. He did all of that, despite the huge setback he was dealt with at age ten. That's brave, go Aemond.

[aliferousdreamer]

the more i think about it the more annoyed i become.... i'm not even excited for season 3 anymore. they can keep it.

ngl hotd season 2 has been really disappointing

[whateverthought]

Oh, House of The Dragon is a feminist show? Team Black is a feminist team?

They wrote out Nettles, a canon black woman. They threw away Rhaena's storyline and subsequent characterization. They wrote out her storyline and replaced it with the canon black woman's storyline. Because Rhaena's a black woman in the show? Are they the same now? Because women's stories are interchangeable?

Rhaenyra has spent 5 episodes making no decisions during a War, they changed her grief from ugly and volatile and brutal to the more appropriate sad and weepy, as all good mothers should be.

They changed Laena's death so they can set a precedent for how honorable Rhaenyra's will be. To prop up a white woman. Why is her death not her own?

Daemon kills his wife, who he calls misogynist names constantly, by his own hand. No plausible deniability, no assassins, he's there. Why did they show it? A woman's death that was only implied to be his fault in the books, but they had to portray a woman's death. What did it accomplish? What did I have to see so bad? Is this Domestic Violence?

Both Daemon and Rhaenyra have sex on the day of Laena's funeral, with her family in the building, including her grieving daughters. And then they get married that week. That was his wife, mother of his children, someone whose death brought him to tears. Even if Rhaenyra isn't friends with her in the show canon, she should have some respect for this woman. Do they not honor the dead in Westeros? Do they not have mourning periods? Religion or not, her body was closer to the castle than it was the bottom of the sea. Why did she have three actresses? Why did she have an extra growth spurt? Why was her adult actress significantly older than both Alicente and Rhaenyra's? Wasn't she younger?

Why does Baela only support Jacaerys but not her sister? Why does Baela talk about Rhaenys but not her mother? Because her father has a new wife? Why does Rhaenyra care if Helaena was hurt or scarred by Jaehaerys death when they don't interact at all? Because she's a mother too? Does that make her saintly now? Was Rhaenys not a mother when she wanted Laenor dead? At his sister's, her daughter's funeral. How does she know Helaena is an innocent? How can Rhaenyra be ambitious enough for the throne, how can Alicente be a silver-tongued usurper but not Helaena? Why doesn't Rhaenyra have female friendships? Why are all her female conversations only about making her queen and the war? No wonder people ship Alicente/Rhaenyra

[princesssszzzz]

Looking at YouTube videos why do they all keep calling show Baela and Rhaena dragon twins they aren’t even twins ??

Falsely claiming they aren’t Princesses when they are both Princess and ladies - calling them Velaryons all these being made by “team black”

[rhaenin-time]

One of the reasons Baela and Rhaena don't feel distinct from one another or fleshed out like their book counterparts, is because the book first parallels Baela with Daemon to define her, and then further characterizes both girls by contrasting them against one another. By distancing them both from Daemon, HotD removes that core kernel of characterization. So they clumsily try to solve this by replacing Daemon’s influence with Laena's, which only serves to further throw off all the characterizations.

I mean, Baela's characterization is so tied to Daemon in a way that, in their circumstances, implies a close connection. And the way they tried to change key traits of Baela, Daemon, and their connection that are tied to the core of their characters, traits that are important to their upcoming actions, is so blatant that I can just leave this here without explaining.

One day, I will explain further. For now, I just think it's fascinating how must this says even if I say nothing.

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I mean the writers know where we're headed. And it's not like they haven't followed that characterization otherwise.

So why does this matter? Why does it feel "off" when they distance Baela from Daemon? Why do the changes not feel "true?"

Play me out, Tuvok: