#azazel yed

[lovetransaction]

Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see; one chance out between two worlds ... did you really think you could trap me?

t w i n  p e a k s s u p e r n a t u r a l

[boundsoffateandfamily]

Supernatural (s1-5) & The Sandman by E. T. A. Hoffmann

[locke-esque-monster]

What exactly were Meg's orders or her plan in Scarecrow?

Was she told to go to Indiana, knowing she'd meet Sam there or was it a chance meeting? Narratively, it makes more sense she was there on purpose. But she also didn't question the orders until the end of the episode after she met Sam, so either she was reiterating the argument, or this was her first shot to question orders.

Let's assume she's there on purpose. Did she get her full orders prior to meeting Sam and playing aloof at first was either her specific instructions or her personal choice on how to enact her orders? Was the aloof thing to hook Sam in or was she just supposed to get a glimpse of him and report back?

I ask report back because she described the van driver as a creep - did she kill him too to use his blood for follow up orders? Seems likely based on her being at the bus station - I can't imagine with Meg's personality she'd be eager to leave him alive.

But following that, was Meg supposed to convince Sam to come with her to CA? Because presumably old Yellow Eyes is also there with John tracking him. Was Meg supposed to plausibly break the brothers apart and get him to the YED, or just to test the waters to see how easy it would be?

I'm wondering if all this is because I'm curious if Meg was supposed to be a prototype for Ruby. With what we know about the other special kids getting seduced to the dark side, was Azazel trying to see how easy it would be to get Sam? And when that failed, Lilith was put in charge of that task and tried a different more subtle tactic? Aka by Lilith using a tactic that used Sam's love for Dean turned into revenge, versus his love of freedom from his family expectations (a little more of a classic Lucifer move - as presumed possible by Azazel when trying to recruit the Lucifer sword).

And is there an entire alternative plot line where Sam follows Meg and the pieces of the puzzle of the apocalypse fall into place differently? Dean still sells his soul (maybe for John instead) and Sam opens the door for Lucifer, maybe a little more willingly?

Structurally it's likely this all wasn't planned out yet, but the implications of the Sam-goes-off-Meg and that version of the apocalypse starts are fascinating.

[samangstielwinchester]

frederic lehne said this???

losing my mind btw

[loregirlsam]

If John had lived, do you think the boys would've gone on hunting with him after killed YED or do you think they'd have gone their seperate ways?

under the cut because it got too long

i had to think about this one for a bit, because as much as i love the thought of more scenes of john hunting with sam and dean, i also think he would throw their dynamic off. because john has a habit of keeping information from them and expecting them to follow his orders no question, and we saw how well that went between them in dead man's blood from that fight in the middle of the road (love that scene btw <333)

im going to assume in this john lives au that he still told dean to watch out for sam and that he might have to kill him, and we saw how that affected dean. i feel like this would have made dean question johns orders more and caused some tension.

and let's say sam still dies at cold oak before they kill the yed. i can't see john approving of dean making a demon deal, not because he hates sam and doesn't want him back but because he thinks with sam dead it will protect him from azazels plans and of course he doesn't want to think of dean in hell because of a deal. and he's too close to killing azazel to make the deal himself, so he burns sam himself when dean falls asleep. and then i don't think they could have gone back from that.

so if john lives in this evil au in my head, then i guess that means there's no sam :( (or at least until lucifer needs his vessel)

im sorry i don't think any of this even answered your question 😭 but in the happier version of this au i think they would have gone their separate ways, but still kept in touch and met up for the more dangerous hunts.

[fandom-hoarder]

Some valid options have been omitted due to poll option limits. I might make a "writer coded" version later. (Becky, Sera Gamble, Chuck, the Fan Fiction girls...)

Loose definitions for coding, as intended in relation to this poll, under the cut.

Dean coded: unhinged, protective, possessive and controlling, enmeshed, parentified older sibling feelings; would trade my life and any non-Sam's for baby brother's; baby bro being alive is priority #1, prime directive, and I associate it so completely with my own existence that I don't know how to be without him; but if he gets out of line, that's my responsibility, too; he deserves a happy, apple pie life but if he leaves me of his own volition i will kms

Lucifer coded: he was made for me; he exists for me; he can understand me if he'll only let himself; his torment and salvation are mine to give, mine to claim; i see into his hidden, dark, rebellious heart and find myself. ETA: he fits like a glove

(OG) Death coded: he is the only human interesting enough to earn my respect; i look upon him as a rare, beautiful specimen to observe rather than a bug to pin; i look forward to reaping him personally, and will enjoy watching him until then

Ruby coded: he's such a good guy, but i know just what he needs; i can't wait to watch him go apeshit; he might be Lucifer's vessel, but I can have a little piece for myself, as a treat; i deserve it!

John coded: he's my baby boy; he might turn evil but if i shelter him from the truth it'll keep him safe a little longer; but i can't be complacent, can't let him be soft; can't let him know i push him away to keep him safe, watching over from afar, bragging about him everywhere I go like the proud father i can't show him

Meg coded: i was rooting for someone else originally, but what can i say? Possessing Sam's meatsuit and knocking around in that noggin really changes a girl. You can't help but root for the guy.

Crowley coded: we have a connection, the moose and I, but I swear I'd kill him if I didn't have this pesky blood addiction; we should bond over that. Hmm...bond...bondage... Can I get him without the flannel?

Sully coded: Sam Winchester is a Hero and has never done anything wrong. If he only has one fan, it is me

YED/Azazel coded: he's my favorite, my changeling child, the boyking; i would forsake all my children for him; Lucifer has his own plan, but first he's MINE

Castiel coded: I thought he was an Abomination, irrevocably tainted, but his faith and sacrifice and resilience and forgiveness changed me

[luna-nigthshade-wood]

Today I will share with you my Supernatural Conspiracy Theory TM, which is John was possesed by the YED since the fire, brought to you by my lack of sleep

Proof? None

Doubts? Zero

So lets begin with how this started...

When the prequel was announced I made a post about how the story would only made sense if it went full circle with the ending being the fire and John looking up with yellow eyes. (I mean alternate universe also made sense, but I mantain my posture)

So anyways, afterwards I started to think about my theory and to me it kind of made sense so here is the "evidence" I gather

Evidence #1 Young John Winchester

So first we have the young version of John Winchester in the show (we are ignoring the prequel as a tecnichallity of them not being in the same universe) Here is the thing, Matt Cohen´s version of John and Jeffrey Dean Morgan´s are totally two different people. Hell, Cohen´s version would be the first to murder older John. And it could be pointed out that grief can change a person but to that degree, I dont think so. So something must have made him change to that degree, so my answer the Yellow Eye Demon

Evidence #2 Azazel

Alright, say the first evidence can be debunked quickly, and the grief changed John into a different person. Here is where I ask my question if you were a millenias-old-demon would you truly leave things occur by chance? Because lets be honest Sam could have died when he was younger due to John´s neglect and we know by the whole show that Sam was the favorite because he was Lucifer´s meat suit. So the demon´s best bet would have been to be close to the boys and who was closest than their dad.

And you might say but the others hunters could have notice. But how would they? Holy water was proven not to work with the YED nor any of the other tests (Also there is the fact that John was never close to catching the yellow eyed demon until it upped his game so )

Evidence #3 Favoritism towards Sam

Thinking that YED raised the boys it is any wonder that Sam was the golden boy. Because Jonh would have never accepted half the shit Sam pulled if it had been Dean doing it

Conclusion

I think John was possesed at least half the time and that is why he changed so much from his young version

(I will also clarify this isnt a John Winchester´s defense post)

[shallowseeker]

SPN but Mary lives instead, and John’s the one that gets deified.

When Mary finds out the entire remainder of Campbell family is out to pre-emptively kill her baby Sam, she trains Dean and Sam to be ultra-hunters in order to protect them from hunters.

And killing Azazel/YED is about revenge, sure. Azazel killed her parents and John.

But when she finds out killing Azazel can turn Sam into a normal (non-psychic) baby, that’s when she truly becomes obsessed.

She wants her babies to be safe. For Sam to become normal.

And striving for it obliterates the chance for either.

[egipci]

So I was thinking about this scene from In the Beginning yesterday in relation to a Discord conversation about Mary's deal to bring John back and whether she sufficiently "pays" for it. (All the other deals to bring loved ones back involve selling your soul and a trip to Hell --- and Mary does die, of course, but only incidentally, and apparently goes directly to Heaven. The thing she pays in exchange is permission for Azazel to enter her home and, unbeknownst to her, infect/poison Sam with demon blood --- which is another way of saying she pays for John's life with Sam's soul (and remarkably, John does the same for Dean's life --- he sells the Colt, and his soul, but also he sells Sam's soul by leaving him out there vulnerable to YED's influence despite the uncertainty that he would be able to resist.))

Anyway, what strikes upon re-visiting that scene is that 1) Mary also effectively sells John as Azazel's vessel and 2) I never see anyone ask Who exactly is the person Mary brings back when she makes that deal?

In addition to the sacrifice entailed by the Faustian bargain (i.e. the cost incurred by the human bargainer), there is a constant anxiety in the early seasons about the cost to the person brought back. When you defy the natural order, is the person you bring back identical to the person you lost? This comes up in relation to Dean coming back to life the first time when John saves him in 2x1 and again in 4x1 when he's saved by Castiel. The same question is also brought up in relation to Sam in the end of S2 (and Dean spends three days contemplating this before he goes to the crossroads, which interestingly people like to paint as an impulsive off-the-cuff decision) and persists into s3 and later with the demon blood situation. And of course throughout those early seasons Sam and Dean are confronted with all the reasons what's dead should stay dead --- people come back as zombies or revenants or whatever and that's all terribly sucky-- which is to say they come back fundamentally and adversely changed, less human somehow. But again, I don't think I've seen anyone talk about this in relation to John.

When Dean asks Mary about him earlier in the episode she says, "He's sweet, kind. Even after the war, after everything, he still believes in happily ever after, you know? He's everything a hunter isn't." --- and obviously at that point their relationship is new and untested (and eventually it's Dean who comes to know his dad better than anyone else). We talk often about pre-Fire John, or if you want to locate his transformative trauma somewhere else you might gesture to his participation in the war (though Mary finds it remarkable how unchanged he is by it)--- but I think there is something about his being brought back to life that fundamentally changes him.

We see in s5 how John and Mary's marital relationship was maybe less than ideal, we see that he moved out perhaps not infrequently, we see him in the pilot drunk and/or sleeping in front of the TV -- and none of these things are particularly red flags or unusual in the course of a 10+ year long relationship--- but then we also see him stand over Sam's bed as Azazel's vessel. He and Azazel are consistently tied together throughout S1, both visually and thematically, until they come to occupy the same body in Devil's Trap. By letting Azazel into her home Mary not only lets him prey on her future children, she more immediately lets him prey on John. But it's not clear that Azazel just feels warm and cozy in John's body, or that John is only a victim --- I think John becomes Azazel, in a way. Azazel is John's shadow self, maybe dormant all along, but he comes to the forefront not when Mary dies, but when she makes the deal to bring him back. This is why you fast forward ten years into the future and Azazel/John is standing in the nursery and they are indistinguishable to her. And it's also why John's redemption begins by breaking from Azazel's control in 1x22, but ultimately he's not the one to kill him, it's Dean, who's arguably John's most serious victim that ends it.

And maybe Azazel is every father's shadow self, because he is also Samuel's shadow self --- concerned with children and lineage, effectively grooming them from infancy into a preordained life mission and so forth.

Another thing that intrigues me endlessly is how it is that John becomes unbreakable in Hell and whether that's indicative of extraordinary righteousness or extraordinary viciousness; and now I'm wondering if that also has to do with his having once died and come back.

[lovetransaction]

"he's gonna tear you apart he's gonna taste the iron in your blood" is a fuckin BANGER of a sentiment but for me it's not that John necessarily wanted that. It's close enough to the truth of the carnivorous way that John thinks about Dean but if it was really what John wanted, I'm pretty sure Dean would already know it by that point.

From all of Azazel's other behaviour the demon liked it better to torment the Campbells/Winchesters and dick them around and play the long game and get at them psychologically so Azazel choosing to say that, and ascribe it to John with the 'he' and everything, was more like ... okay. What Dean's intimately familiar with is his body being used as bait and all the violations that come with that. And it's Dean, so he thinks that any sacrifice he makes isn't only allowable, it's correct. But if dad-god is brought as low as Dean is, and made to feel the way Dean feels, that's the worst thing. Dean would feel agony over John being violated way way more than he'd ever feel it about himself.

(There's a whole other thing here about the horror of Dad being forced to brutalize Dean and there being no rationale/justification behind it, where normally there is some reason for why Dean should bleed for the cause, but I haven't had coffee yet)

but yeah so like. Azazel's trying to get at Dean not with the actual threat itself but the psychological anguish (and guilt bc once again, it's Dean) of knowing that his dad's trapped in there and not actually wanting to tear him apart and taste the iron in his blood. (another thing there about iron and its effect on monsters and what this says about their monstrousness but that's an aside) And Dean's response isn't to protest on his own behalf but to demand that Azazel let John go!!! I mean!!!

The line that really gets ME is when Dean goes, "Dad, don’t you let it kill me" because FUCK. That's a direct appeal to John himself without whatever Azazel thinks might be the worst thing to happen to them because Dean knows their own gospel which is: things happen to Dean because John lets them happen to Dean. If dad-god so decrees it, then Azazel can't kill Dean. He has perfect faith in that over all else. The whole scene is about how Azazel, even after years of studying this family, can't quite manage to fool Dean when it comes to John. Because nobody living or dead or lieutenant of hell knows John Winchester and all the good and bad he's capable of better than Dean does.

[sampilled]

i love how all of the side characters in the early seasons are unreliable narrators and we will never actually know what they knew and how they actually felt

specifically thinking about how vague john + azazel relationship is and basically everything that john got up to that he probably changed or omitted in stories/ in the journal. he lied so much and the show is told through sam and dean's perspective so we will never actually know the truth of john (how much did he know about yed and sam??)

ANDDD alastiar + john in hell!!! did john actually not break or did alastair lie because he knew that it would get to dean?? everything he said was designed to fuck with dean. we can't even be sure he met john

i love old hunters and demons and their secrets #johnzazel #johnstair

[boundsoffateandfamily]

dean + john // poem written by scripwriter Truman Capote specially for the film The Innocents (1961)

[townhulls]

that SPN s1 visual motif with the ominous, ambiguous silhouette of a demonic intruder in the dark makes me craaaazy. i just heard recently for the first time that the figure in the nursery when they filmed the pilot was indeed played by JDM?! insane. weirdly validating.

so we've got the pilot, the callback you mentioned when John shows up in Shadow (heh), the whole trauma literally replaying itself in Salvation (and then figuratively in Devil's Trap when John and the YED are actually in the same body, reinflicting Mary and Jess's wounds on Dean and doubling down on recruiting Sam)...

but i swear there are subtler instances too - we first see John in Dead Man's Blood as an indistinct prowler in the dark, stalking the brothers from the woods outside the cabin! later in the same ep we end up watching him as a literal shadowy intruder in the vampire couple's bedroom. maybe a reach but i also see an echo of it in the s3 finale, in that shot of Sam's silhouette through the bed curtains, standing in the nursery of a demon-touched child with a knife in his hand. and then of course there's the "vampire Dean watching Lisa sleep" shot in 6x05...

idk it just makes me feel shrimp emotions that s1 was *so deliberate*, right from the opening sequence of the very first episode, about visually conflating John and the demon he's devoted his entire family's lives to hunting. the insinuation that maybe *the* demon that ruined their lives was never entirely distinct from *John's demons*. and then the show sustains that right up through the season finale! it's crazymaking. it verges on some Twin Peaks shit. it opens up cosmic-brain gothic horror readings of s1 and every season sexy enough to revisit those themes. and it's an implication that lives entirely in a single, wordless, repeated visual.

(this is shinelikethunder on main, lol, continuing to be Extremely Normal About It)

aaa sorry this took me so long to respond to! i was trying to organize my thoughts lol. i agree so completely! one of the things i really like too about the pilot is that dean’s introduction in sam’s apartment sort of indirectly mirrors that shadowy silhouette image too — dean’s both an incarnation and a victim of john, where sam is both an incarnation and a victim of azazel. s1 does such a good job of blurring the lines between what has been inflicted on the family and what the family has inflicted upon itself, like you said!!

and the fact that all of it plays out through a visual motif is so interesting, too — this idea of internally perpetuated cycles of violence is unspoken by the winchesters, so it remains unspoken but visually available to the viewer as well. one of my favorite facets of supernatural is its own unreliability. i’m not sure how much of it is intentional on kripke’s part, but the show is itself something of an unreliable narrator. it does a lot of saying one thing and then showing the inverse: very simply distilled into that one post that’s like “supernatural looking directly into the camera: this is a father” re: john's appearance in shadow.

the boys can never come to terms with john’s (or their own) hand in their neverending trauma, because doing that would be to admit that revenge is only a half-baked attempt at an answer, and that azazel is more of a scapegoat than a true, intentional villain. so they will never admit it to themselves, but everyone close to them is given all the visual clues they need to piece together how circular this family's violence is.

idk!!! i love readings of spn that center on how cosmic forces are constantly recreating and reenacting the winchesters’ family drama not in order to torture them but because the winchesters cannot stop reenacting their own trauma, and the cosmic forces are more of an allegory than anything. something something they woke up and it was all a dream induced by one of sam’s therapy sessions. to me.

[liopleurodean]

Season 12, Episode 12: Stuck In The Middle (With You)

Boy, do I have a story for you

Yikes

She's flirting with Cas 😂

Dean...

I care. That sucks

This is a strange conversation

Not a good time frame

Man, it's so weird to be interacting with regular hunters

Wonderful

"shy, but devastatingly handsome" Dean. Please. Think about what you are saying

GOOD FOR HER

"fine" sure

Preoccupied

Aw, not Wally!!!

Ha! I doubt it

That's so sad

What was that? Like an extra title card or something

This is interesting

Poor Wally 😂

Ramble on!

MOOD

This is Dramatic

OHH it was directed by Gabriel. That makes sense

He gets the easy job

So I guess they had bad intel

Huh.

Cas...

Oh no

That's spooky

Sooo, not a demon? Or at least, not a normal one

That's not good

Shoot him!

Yellow eyes...

I guess it makes sense that there would be more of them

Here we go

Really? Must've been living under a rock

Is that a freaking spear???

That works

A barn, huh?

What was on that thing?

YED, that's what happened

Just like Azazel

This is an interesting way to tell the story

Not physically

Mary. What did you do?

He's right, Mary

Trust is an interesting word

I feel so bad for Wally right now

Yeah...

What is she doing?

Freaky

Whaaat

Okay, here's what I don't get: the Colt that killed Azazel was supposed to be basically the same as Ruby's demon knife, so why didn't it work on this guy?

She calls them Hobbits...

What the heck???

Great question

You think???

Not gonna happen, Cas

Crowley! Oh thank goodness

Well that's foreboding

Yup

What's going on here?

Thanks, Cas

Azazel was a prince of Hell

They are so screwed

Mr. Crowley

Oh boy

Oh my gosh. That's THEE lance???

The thing that Mary was after

Because he was the Prince, and Lucifer died. This explains how Crowley got it

He's so confused 😂

It's horrifying that the others are still around somewhere

Crowley through and through

Yeah...

It's a lance

Yup

If you're an angel, it goes the long way

Dean...

They need the Colt. Or even the Lance

Oh, Dean...

They're gonna summon an angel

Dude. Enochian brass knuckles

Oh, Crowley...

Unfortunately

Don't underestimate the Winchesters

Crowley needs to get out of there

Really bad

No way, Cas

KNOWING YOU HAS CHANGED ME, DEAN

DON'T DO THIS, CAS

WHAT THE HECK

"YOU'RE MY FAMILY" 😭😭😭😭😭

CAS 😭😭😭😭😭

Cas...

You're in no shape for that, Cas

OHANA MEANS FAMILY, CAS

They don't like that

I'm sure

Maybe you should

Oh really? Then why do you know?

That's not good

Dang it, Mary

Mary...

At least, the boys do

That was dramatic

Nice. Michael Sword versus Michael's Lance

Sweet

Cas is Not Okay

Your future ends in black goo...

Crowley...

That could work

Thanks, Crowley!

No thanks to you, Mary

Dean...

Of course there's one last thing

Dude. Not cool

Now's the time, Mary

Please!

Yes!

Obviously

Dude. Seriously?

Oh my gosh. It's the stupid Colt

Speechless. Literally speechless. This is so stupid, I can't even-

Pssh. Nice

Eh...

...is that Lucifer?

Wow.

[whateverthedragonswant]

What an interesting little part of the scene I never noticed before.

John says "Hey Dean" but nothing to Mary or Sam. Of course Dean runs to his dad. "Daddy!" (so cute btw)

John picks him up and teases, asking Dean if he thinks Sam is ready to throw a football around or not yet. To which Dean tells him "No, Daddy".

John playfully agrees and Mary passes by, smiling, asking John if he's got him. John's eyes never leave her until she walks out of his eyeline and then Dean puts his head on John's shoulder, while John says "I've got him", his eyes immediately landing on Sam.

"Sweet dreams, Sam" John says to Sam from the doorway and we see Sam turn his eyes onto John. John then walks out of the room, carrying Dean, and turning the light off.

Here's why this is so interesting and what kills me about it:

When the scene starts, Mary has Dean in her arms, turns the light on, and pays attention to both boys, telling Dean "come on, let's say goodnight to your brother" even though Sam was still in his crib. Dean and Mary both kiss Sam goodnight on the forehead.

This blocking (and editing) speaks volumes, especially when you consider what happens later in this season, this story even.

John has no idea about anything hunting related or who Sam will become at this point in time, what will happen to Mary -- none of it. But here in this one sequence, Kripke and Nutter gave you the beginning of the very complex/complicated Winchester family dynamics.

In these few seconds we get:

Mary -> light, close with both boys, bringing Dean to Sam

John -> dark, only close to Dean, taking Dean away

John never taking his eyes off Mary until she's out of eyesight - in love/loves her

"I've got him" John's eyes go to Sam

And then we remember:

Mary becomes the fantasy mother figure for Dean and Sam; everything went to pot once she died & they were forced into this hunting life/war; in this scene she's the parent, encouraging Dean to say goodnight to his brother, not asking him anything about Sam

John becomes the authoritarian father and is consumed by his quest for revenge; when Sam goes to college, Dean stays with John & John relies on him heavily as he has since Dean was a kid (2x01 hospital monologue scene)

John needs revenge for Mary's death, wants to kill YED/Azazel

John doesn't have Sam when the boys' story kicks off when he's in college; later in 2x01, John lays the burden on Dean's shoulders to try to save Sam from going bad or he'd have to kill him

I'm not trying to suggest that Kripke had the first five seasons all planned out or even what John ends up telling Dean in 2x01. I'm not trying to suggest that anyone involved with the pilot knew if it would actually get picked up. But considering this moment and the way it was blocked, the performances, the edits -- this sets up that Winchester family dynamic before shit even hits the fan, and it links to the rest of the season beautifully.

John's reaction to Sam is so diametrically opposed to his reaction to Dean and Mary. And we see this play out later on when John comes back and how Dean is in the middle, both literally and figuratively (just like Dean in this scene is in between John and baby Sam).

And that's just some good fucking writing (and acting/directing) right there.

[scoobydoodean]

Realizing now that Sam’s lack of rationality in this situation (which is understandable considering all The Vengeful Rage™️) extends to saying they should wait around for demons to show up and use up The Colt’s remaining bullets in the process without even knowing if Azazel will show, but when Dean wants to bring The Colt to face the demons when they go to rescue John, Sam is suddenly very concerned about wasting The Colt’s bullets if the YED isn’t there. His opinions on whether to use The Colt or not use it aren’t based on trying to be rational they’re based on Sam Wants Revenge™️

Dean getting Sam to fall back so they can make a plan, 1.22 "Devil's Trap"