#arthuriana asks

[ripmyfictionalfriends]

💚🥰 for the arthuriana questions!

💚 Favorite Quest/Story Arc

Hmmm I feel like those are two different things? Favourite story arc would be The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnell 100%. I always describe it as a Shrek like take on Beauty and the Beast where the lady is cursed to look like a "beast/ogre" or whatever ugly names she was called in the story but is accepted and loved for who she is by the person she marries AND gets to pick what she wants to look like herself.

Favourite Quest... i have read a couple quests for sure. I do really appreciate Yvain's story (Knight with the Lion by Chrétien de Troyes) where he has to better himself to win back his wife after abandoning her while questing. But I adore the middle dutch story of Morien whose mother, a princess of the Moorish lands, was left by Anglovale, Percival's brother, before they could get married. This abandonment had consequences for Morien and his mother, getting disinherited from their lands. Thus he knights himself(!!) and goes on a quest to find his father and he meets Lancelot and Walewein (Gawain) as they're looking for Perceval. A medieval story about a black knight who gets to kick ass and deal w daddy issues, my kinda story 🫶

🥰 Arthuriana Headcanon

My oh my. Truly what are headcanons in a "canon" consisting of a vast collection of media which often contradict each other?

I love some lgbtq+ headcanons for sure

Mordred: genderfluid, gay

Arthur: bisexual and/or trans

Bedivere: gay and def had something going on with Arthur. it's Arthur x Bedivere supremacy in this house!!!

My headcanon is that Arthur and the other deceased ladies and knights who ended up in Avalon party with the fae all day long as he deserves, my beloved son.

anyway...

all hail king arthur

[sickfreaksirkay]

Lancelot is a feminist because he really be capturing knights and peasants and sending them to Guinevere. Who tf is Arthur?

im intrigued by the idea that lancelot sends captured people to guinevere purely because he's a feminist. cant even send captured people to the king anymore. because of woke

[queer-ragnelle]

Why do you hate the Once and Future Knight? I decided not to pick up the book because of personal preference but I’d love to hear your rant on it

Hi anon!

I’m assuming you mean The Once and Future King by TH White?

There’s nothing I could say that hasn’t already been said before I’m sure. But I didn’t read the series until I had already read many other Arthurian tales and I really don’t understand the love the series gets. The negatives don’t outweigh the positives, and worse, the lasting impact of TH White’s characterization choices on subsequent retellings is a stain on the literary tradition that set us back too far to comprehend. Putting my rant below a cut because I went off and the subject matter is disgusting.

First and foremost, the bigotry is astounding. The racism, the misogyny, the ableism and every other prejudice and cruelty you can think of are staggering in their variety and magnitude. It’s vile. It’s inexcusable. I don’t read modern Arthurian retellings to be bombarded with that in every single chapter. TOAFK is not “a product of its time.” It’s a product of a deeply unhappy and hateful man. Plenty of earlier writing is vastly kinder to Palomides and Guinevere and Morgause and Mordred and Lancelot or any other character unlucky enough to be depicted by TH White. Literally the Medieval source material is more nuanced than that. Morgause get behind me.

Secondly, the anachronism is an annoying stylistic choice at best and yet another tool for bigotry at worst. Why are Mordred and Agravaine likened to Nazis? Like seriously what the hell? It’s not enough for them to be antagonists, the text has to invoke the Holocaust? It’s so extreme it rips the reader right out of the story and calls to mind the most horrific parts of history for no narrative benefit whatsoever. Baffling and bad.

Thirdly, the prose just kinda sucks. It’s rambling and TH White will pause the narrative to stand on a soap box to talk at the reader about his views. He’s anti-war. Fine. But of all characters to use as a mouthpiece—King Arthur? The warlord King Arthur? Make it make sense.

Fourth, most tragically of all, so much of what TH White did in his series is reflected in stories told to this day. Every other retelling has a cover quote comparing it to TOAFK. (It’s supposed to be a compliment!) To put it in perspective…

You ever read a retelling with evil neglectful parent and rapist Morgause/Morgan? TH White’s fault.

How about added incest between one of the Orkney bros and their mother (which sometimes results in someone other than Gaheris killing her, say, Agravaine or Mordred)? Thanks, TH White, that’s just what Arthurian Legend was missing, more incest.

Ever see disabled, crippled, bad seed Mordred? TH White started that trend.

What about Guinevere assaulting Lancelot when she learns about Elaine getting him drunk and raping him? TH White really said “Lol what if Guinevere hits Lancelot and spits in his face while he’s crying?”

And the racism! TH White walked so Thomas Berger could run (derogatory). Discussions of race are so intense and so frequent and so random like one minute the narrator has paused the plot to talk about how war is bad and now it’s slandering Native Americans? Brother this is Medieval England what is even happening right now? Oh, look, another N bomb. The antisemitism! Weren’t you just comparing Mordred to Hitler? What do you mean the Orcadian/Scottish characters are evil because of *checks notes* “the incalculable miasma which is the leading feature of the Gaelic brain?” [Queen of Air and Darkness chapter 5] Thanks TH White for stripping Lot, Morgause, Gawain, Agravaine, Gaheris, Gareth, and Mordred of all nuance, a condition from which they have, literally, never recovered. Of course there are some retellings since that write one or two of them with a crumb of nuance, but they’ll never be like they were in the Vulgate. Not all at the same time. I feel sick.

It goes on and on. I have to stop listing examples or I’ll get pissed off. But frankly, more people should be pissed off about it! I’m tired of seeing five star reviews on storygraph and goodreads accompanied by a review excusing the most bigoted garbage I have ever read in a children’s book. It’s vile and everyone should feel bad about defending it. It’s inexcusable. This wasn’t a case of good-intentioned inclusion with dated language, this was an author going out of his way to be hateful. Period.

Big names in the fantasy book community like Daniel Greene should not be awarding five stars and leaving an uncritical review.

Far too many readers acknowledge the racism and then rate it five stars anyway. Go to Hell, Spencer.

Here’s some from storygraph with, of course, praise for Marion Zimmer-Bradley’s pedophilic power fantasy Mists of Avalon, another piece of hot festering sludge everyone should stop talking about. Kill the legacy already. The real life victims have suffered enough.

There also seems to be a trend in these reviews that excuse the texts bigotry by referring to how “old” it is. Which is crazy to me for many reasons. TOAFK in its final form was published in 1958. That wasn’t that long ago. Also racism has always been racism, misogyny has always been misogyny, ableism has ways been ableism. Plenty of authors came before this and really make TH White look like a clown.

Let’s promote them. In reverse!

John Steinbeck wrote The Acts of King Arthur and His Noble Knights in 1956 (published posthumously in the 70s, don’t go by that date). His depictions of Morgan and Guinevere are nuanced and fascinating, not to mention some original characters including an old granny who teaches Owain to be a warrior! This book also has a morally gray sun-powered Gawain without insulting his heritage, an emotional and thought-provoking Lancelot without marking his sin with a facial deformity, and a really sweet Marhalt who doesn’t often get much spotlight!

John Erskine wrote Restoring Palamede in 1932. He does exactly what the cover says, and writes a story about the Muslim knight Palomides beginning in his own country, living with his parents whom are both named, and follows him as he learns the ways of the world and finds an ally in his friend Brangaine! Tristan and Isolde are compelling here and while Tristan can still be a jerk to Palomides, it’s not the mask-off bigotry we’ve seen…elsewhere.

Howard Pyle wrote one, two, three, four books between 1903-1910. Two thumbs up from me. No notes. He drank his respect women juice, drew them with loving care, named so many previously unknown, and gave them voices. He was kind in his portrayal to Palomides and even some other knights of color from India. Morgause survives the narrative! We love to see it!!!

Henry Newbolt wrote Mordred: A Tragedy in 1895. A fascinating examination of family ties, all five Orkney brothers here AND their wives Lyonors, Lynette, and Laurel! (Minus Ragnelle bc life is unfair.) Guinevere and Lancelot are tragic and heart wrenching. Arthur struggles against his son Mordred and their destiny in a way that doesn’t outright demonize either side. It will rewire your brain.

Richard Hovey wrote his poetry between 1891-1900. A complex and interesting Guinevere and Elaine who are not enemies, Lancelot close with Galehaut during the war, destroyed by his torn loyalties between Arthur and Guinevere, Gawain who loves his friend Lancelot with all his heart, and so much more without tearing anyone down!

Oscar Fay Adams wrote his poetry between 1886-1906. Here we get a wide variety of character focus, with title-featured names from King Lot to Dagonet to Lamorak to Lionel. Each one is more fascinating and nuanced and fresh than the last, from a tour of Lot’s castle and meeting each inhabitant to Lamorak on Grail Quest learning to forgive himself from “sweet” Sagramore.

William Morris wrote his poetry between 1856-1910. All of it is on the Camelot Project but I also have this scanned book. Here we delve into Guinevere’s trial as she calls out those who have wronged her, lonely Galahad on Grail Quest relating to his father Lancelot and praising Palomides in his steadfast hunt of the Questing Beast, there’s even a poem named for Palomides himself!!!

Anonymous wrote Moriaen in the 13th century. It follows Aglovale’s illegitimate son Moriaen, who is of African descent. As he travels around Britain looking for his father, Moriaen meets many people who are afraid of his dark skin. BUT! All the Knights of the Round Table leap to his defense, even threatening townsfolk who try to demonize Moriaen for the way he looks and refuse him service. It is, essentially, an anti-racism story from the Medieval era. Not to mention healer Gawain’s care and attention given to the sick and disabled. That’s not even the moral/focus of the story so much as Moriaen’s journey, but it’s there and worth mentioning.

So here we are with a whole list of stuff to read that predates TOAFK and surpasses it. The last one is only sort of a joke. But it’s there to make a point about how inexcusable TH White’s racism really is. If Anonymous could give a black knight like Moriaen the narrative respect he’s entitled to for existing as a representation of real human beings that look like him, then TH White was capable of it too. Progress is not linear. This is not to say Medieval times were “better” than society today. But to write off any problematic story of the recent past as “a product of its time” as an excuse to make oneself feel better about liking it, well, I don’t know what to say. Maybe reflect on that. And while that marinates, read something else.

[lancelots-squire]

god you can't even challenge all passing knights to a battle and then lock them up in your dungeon anymore. because of woke

[caer-gai]

~Arthuriana August ~

(i'm posting this a biit early because I don't trust myself to remember it before August first and I want to give folks some time <3 Y'all feel free to get started early if you need to - I know August is busy, especially for those of us still in school - but I won't start reblogging until August)

An arthuriana art writing song making gif-ing or whatever else challenge for the month of August!! I know the format isn't anything new but I tried to get original with the prompts lol

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Blood or No(1-5)-

Sibling and family week! The perfect time for Orkneys any sibling or family dynamic be it birth, adopted, or found!

Sick Leave(6-10) -

My personal favorite prompt! Be it whump, hurt/comfort, hurt no comfort, or angst, sick in bed or covered in blood it's time to hurt your faves!

Warm+Cozy(11-15)-

Now that we've whumped everyone it's time for some fluff! Bonding, cuddles, hurt with heavy comfort, just all the warm feelings.

Getting Heated!! (16-20)-

An argument, a romance, *cough*smut*cough*, a busy day in the kitchens.... or all four! Is it just me, or is it getting hot in here! :flustered:

Lady of the Hour(21-25)-

Enough of the knights, time for some ladies!! Everyone from Guinevere and Morgan to Adrivette and the Lady of Lys.

Visiting Knights (26-31)-

Or ladies, I'm not picky! This includes characters who have origins outside of Britain ex. Palomedies, Feirefiz, the French knights/du lacs, Morien, ect.

----

Each prompt has five days except the last one has six. (This took me far too long to figure out lol) Be sure to tag with #arthuriana august, and if you want me to reblog it @caer-gai so I see it <3

Gore/violence and NSFW is allowed but I will use discretion when reblogging explicit works. Please no AI generated content =)

Most importantly have fun! If you end up posting nothing but had a good time that is a total win

[wildbasil]

Your art is so cool!!! I love your funny little Welsh guys. Just out of curiosity- does Edern ever take his helmet off??

i think the real question is should edern ever take his helmet off. when his hair looks like this

[wulfhalls]

What’s the drawing in your header? Love!!!!

King Arthur and the Weeping Queens by Dante Gabriel Rossetti 👍

[yiddishknights]

If it's not too much trouble, I would love to know about Old Yiddish Arthuriana! I had literally no idea that was a thing but it sounds so amazing

I'm always happy to answer questions about Old Yiddish! I wrote my M.A. thesis about Vidvilt, an Arthurian epic written sometime around the 15th century. It was written in Old Yiddish and adapted from an earlier German epic called Wigalois. It in turn established a small but enduring Arthurian tradition in Yiddish: two other Arthurian works, usually known as Artushof and Gabein, were adapted from Vidvilt in the 17th-18th centuries. Artushof was especially popular; it was printed in more than a dozen different editions over the course of about a century, one of which I wrote about in this post.

Someone else on here already did a good little overview of medieval and early modern Jewish knight stories here!

[magicomens]

Hi! I saw the first installment of your comic a while ago, but I didn’t realize there was more! I’ve only watched Good Omens, and am vaguely familiar with the story of King Arthur. I think your comic is neat, and was exited to see there was more to this story than the first page.

Hi!! Thank u so much <3

Merlin took a lot of liberty with the source material, so keep that in mind if you ever get confused by this version's lore!

[gawrkin]

Why did gawain not become king of orkney after Lot died?

That's a simple question with a very complicated answer.

To be really, really, really short and concise**, it boils down to two things:

One: Lot originally didn't die fighting Arthur.

In the earlies stories of Arthuriana, like Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia Regum Britanniae, Lot never warred with Arthur. The Sword in the Stone and the Mayday Massacre never happened in these older stories, so Lot has no reason to fight Arthur.

In fact, King Lot lives all the way to the end of Arthur's reign. Here's one example:

Didot Percival

So really, Gawain doesn't succeed Lot because originally, Lot was alive the whole time and Gawain dies at Mordred's rebellion before he can succeed Lot, who dies shortly after.

Lot's early death is actually a relatively recent Plot Point that was introduced in Vulgate/Post-Vulgate.

Its a retcon that only exists as a plot device to give Gawain a motive to be evil for revenge against Pellinore and his family.

There's also a bit Stations of the Canon at play here - Traditionally, Gawain is supposed to be one of Arthur's Greatest Warriors, so inevitably, he must join the Round Table... even when later stories change things so it doesn't make sense anymore.

By Post-Vulgate, Arthur is not only responsible for the death of his father but also seemingly the death of his newborn baby brother, Mordred. Gawain, logically, has no reason to like Arthur, much less join him.

So basically, its later retcons that don't jive with Gawain's positioning as member of Arthur's household. With Lot's early death, Gawain shouldn't be running around adventuring and questing when his homeland needs him to run things.

The medieval writers took for granted that Gawain is able to be present in Arthur's court for particular reasons.

Which leads us to the second reason

Two: Because then Gawain would be unable to adventure anymore

Basically, Gawain is a traditional hero of Arthuriana, and him not being in Camelot anymore would drastically change the cast dynamics and the story. It's like if Superman and Batman retired from the Justice League and didn't show up anymore.

Gawain can't meet Lancelot and join the Grail Quest if he's stuck up in the North, doing boring Kingly duties.

Ultimately, the Medieval writers just simply didn't care about Gawain's realistic feudal duties and obligations. To them, Gawain and the other knights are adventurer-protagonists: they're heroes first, feudal lords second.

That's why you don't see Lancelot managing Joyous Gard - that's boring real life crap the Medieval audiences wouldn't be interested in seeing. So, Lancelot goes around joining tournaments and beating up knights in random directions instead.

Arthurian Literature is essentially Chivalric escapist fantasy. It's about quests and fights, action and excitement.

And YES, it doesn't make any sense that Gawain isn't called "King Gawain"

**(I wrote an entire essay as an answer, only to stop I when realized its too long and overly wordy LOL)

[bisclavret]

this bit of dialogue and editing cracks me up every time. honor? are you asking me? no. hmm. honor 🫡

[sickfreaksirkay]

so glad to find out that twitter culture has existed since the 13th century

[queer-ragnelle]

"In another life... I really would've liked just doing taxes and laundry with you"

-Arthur Pendragon, Excalibur 1981

I'M IN SO MUCH PAIN

[caer-gai]

Arthuriana ask game!!

bc why not

♘ Favourite Knight/King

🫅Favorite Lady/Damsol/Queen

💚 Favorite Quest/Story Arc

✒A Medieval Text You Like

📚A Retelling/Modern Work You Like

📽Recommend a book/movie/tv show etc

💛A Sibling Group/Dynamic That IS NOT The Orkneys

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿Okay Now You Can Talk About Orkneys

😤Your Most Specific Nitpick About Your Fave (anything from "Gareth would not have a beard" to "this is basically a different guy")

🥰An Arthuriana Headcanon

😏Gawain?

🥖Favorite French/du lac (Lancelot, Hector de Maris, Bors, Lionel, Galahad, ect)

👨‍👦Favorite Parent

🗡️Who Are You Betting On In This Month's Tournament?

🙏Pick A Grail Knight

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿Pick A Pelli Spawn (Percival, Aglovale, Tor, Lamorak, Aylane, Dindrane, Donar, ect)

💏Crack Ship (s)

🫂Platonic Ship(s)

[filletedfennysnake]

I shan't cease my propaganda concerning bear kay. I'm right I just know it

[wildbasil]

I’ve had a few messages asking me to elaborate on my comic and I gotta say, I’m super honoured that people are enjoying my silly little drawings and want to know more!!

In short, Gwyn, Edern and Blodeuwedd are figures from medieval Welsh literature and folklore. I just think they’re neat 😌🌸

Gwyn

Warrior, Arthurian knight, fairy king and supernatural huntsman, Gwyn is associated with lonely places, like moorlands and mountaintops. He’s evasive, untrustworthy and, especially in earlier texts, has a pretty bad temper. In Culhwch and Olwen, he abducts the object of his affection, Creiddylad, right before her marriage. When her fiancé raises an army against him, Gwyn goes off the deep end a bit, raining violence down on his opponents and taking a bunch of them prisoner. He even tortures one guy into insanity by forcing the guy to eat his own dad's heart. Gwyn’s really caught the imagination of writers throughout time, and at least he seems to have chilled out somewhat over the centuries. For some reason, I like imagining him as tired and sort of past it as a mischief-maker.

Edern/Yder/Ider

Edern is a spirited, confident youth and, like his brother, is a knight of King Arthur. He’s slightly better at it, though. Less violence, more chivalry. Apparently a bit of a hunk too since, in the Romance of Yder, Guinevere admits that Edern would be her first choice if she ever remarried (and it seems Edern was Guinevere’s lover in some traditions). He’s also impatient and cocky, frequently rushing ahead into danger, which normally ends badly for him. In Geraint and Enid, he appears as the ill-mannered Knight of the Sparrowhawk. Despite boasting the title of jousting champion for two years running, he ends up getting beaten badly by Geraint and, begging for mercy, is forced to admit that he’s behaving like a little shit. I like imagining him as a dumbass younger brother.

Blodeuwedd

Blodeuwedd is an owl now, but she used to be a woman. When Lleu Llaw Gyffes was cursed to never have a human wife, his meddling uncle Gwydion magicked him one out of flowers. This flower lady was named Blodeuwedd. When she had an affair and, with her lover, tried to kill Lleu, Gwydion punished her by turning her into an owl, a creature reviled by humans and birds alike. But Blodeuwedd never asked to be a woman and she never asked to be an owl; I think it’s impossible not to feel compassion for her. There’s no real connection between her and Gwyn, but I enjoy imagining them as weird friends. After all, Gwyn’s pretty disliked and feared too.

A (Very, Very Short) Reading List

Here are some links if you want to learn more!

Firstly, I recommend reading Sioned Davies’ translation of The Mabinogion, which is a collection of eleven medieval Welsh stories.

The Mabinogion translated by Sioned Davies (2007)

But there are some free translations online too:

The Mabinogion translated by Charlotte Guest (1877)

In particular, these are the stories I mentioned above:

Culhwch and Olwen

Geraint son of Erbin

Math son of Mathonwy

And here's one of my favourites (not from the Mabinogion): the story of St Collen and Gwyn ap Nudd.

Thanks for reading!!