#prose tristan

[queer-ragnelle]

The Arthurian Companion by Phyllis Ann Karr | A Companion to Malory edited by Elizabeth Archibald | Illuminated Manuscript | La Tavola Ritonda | Tristano Riccardiano | Byelorussian Tristan | Merlin and The Sword (1985) | Palomydes' Quest by William Morris | The Post-Vulgate Quest for The Holy Grail | The Romance of King Arthur and His Knights of the Round Table by Alfred W. Pollard | Illuminated Manuscript | Sir Galahad Christmas Mystery by William Morris | Illustration by Florence Harrison | The Enchanted Cup by Dorothy James Roberts | Arthur & Merlin: Knights of Camelot (2020) | Le Morte d'Arthur by Sir Thomas Malory | The Book of Mordred by Peter Hanratty | Illustration by Aubrey Beardsley | The Romance of Tristan by Renee L. Curtis | The Bright Sword by Lev Grossman

[dullyn]

One thing that is both lovely and frustrating about the Arthurian legends is the fact that since there are so many different authors, not a lot lines up. Like it offers such wild plot lines and in depth explorations of different characters, but at some point you become confused on where some interactions even come from. The perfect example of this is the tale of Tristan and Iseult, something from the twelfth century that is older than the existence of the character of Lancelot, and something that predates the Vulgate Cycle. The story essentially establishes Tristan as a character and as a brilliant knight. However, he is not Arthur’s knight in the tale, instead Arthur only makes a brief appearance as a third party judge, and he is simply King Mark’s nephew and favored knight. Well until he gets caught having an affair with Iseult and it all goes downhill and he suffers from the plot device of the Sails of Theseus. However, in the Prose Tristan and other later adaptations he is the best friend of Lancelot and Arthur’s second best knight and a noble guy, etc. I guess the point of this whole thing is that it always screws with my head when I stare at the multiple versions of the same character and have to reconcile that they are all true and real and right cause it’s literature and stories are meant to adapt and change. That’s the beauty of it as a genre, but sometimes I wish there was just one definitive timeline.

[naumaxia-art]

A couple more lil Arthuriana designs (For those of you who know about the comic I still do intend to finish it eventually... I think it just needs a bit of a rewrite and I need more time XD)

[gawrkin]

Arthurian Trope Spotlight: Love will make you stronger

(and Queen Guinevere and the other ladies function like support buffs

Historia Regum Britanniae - A description of Arthur's Court

Knight of the Cart - Lancelot's Strength and Courage

[...]

Vulgate Cycle - Lady of the Lake's advice to young Lancelot

La Tavola Ritonda - Sir Viano's advice

****(Ouch. Tristan's father is a huge asshole here...)

Le Morte D'Arthur - Arthur commands Guenever to accompany him to war

This should put a perspective on a lot of things about Arthurian Literature, Chivalric Romance and Courtly Love: Love is objectively a force/element present in the World of Romance.

[kashilascorner]

I don't know very well what to think of Kahedin because on one hand he was far too happy with Tristan marrying then just kinda simply leaving his sister (also Kahedin's father or, worse, Iseult of the White Hands herself know nothing about it) and Mark of all people is very fond of him (though he also claimed to be fond of Tristan, go figure). On the other hand I think he's just some dude and his biggest mistake was crossing paths with Tristan

[tiodolma]

All his Knights declared unanimously, that a more noble companion they could never have, and swore to Arthur, to spend a whole year in quest of him, and not to return 'till they had found and seen him installed a Knight of the Round-table.

....arthur all your good military people are going to disappear for a year just to find one dude. is that even a good idea.

[amashelle]

My studies are adjacent to this, so I MiGHT be wrong, but my understanding is that the Prose Tristan is the name of the text itself, but the first scholarly/translated/edited edition of the text (by Renee L Curtis) was called the Roman de Tristan in Prose. So they are technically the same, but one specifically refers to the edited volume.

Are the Prose Tristan and Le Roman de Tristan the same thing?

oh im not sure actually! i don't know a lot about the tristan corpus tbh. anyone who does know feel free to chime in !!

[majestativa]

He said to her: “I adore you, You’re the oasis of my soul.”

— Tristan Corbière, Oysters, Nightingales and Cooking Pots: Selected Poetry & Prose, transl by Richard Hibbitt & Katherine Lunn-Rockliffe, (2018)

[cyberprincehavoc]

— Joseph Bédier's The Romance of Tristan and Iseult (1900)

[queer-ragnelle]

Hi, I’m just curious. I know that the star/pentacle on a red background symbol for Gawain comes from the green knight but where does the double eagle on the purple background come from?

Hello!

This proved more difficult to find sources for than I anticipated. I didn't want to just say "French texts" and leave it at that. And good thing I didn't! I couldn't find a single textual description of Gawain's eagle device anywhere. Vulgate yielded nothing, no mention of an eagle shield in the stories of Chretien de Troyes. Not even in Le Morte d'Arthur does Gawain's device get a mention! Galahad's red cross on white is always described, Palomides's black armor and insignia is well-documented, but never Gawain's heraldry. Now I was determined to figure this out.

According to The Heraldry Society, many of the coats of arms we associate with the knights of the Round Table are believed to originate from illuminations made around Sir Thomas Malory's time and curated by Jacques d’Armagnac. From there, I was able to track down a book called The Manuscripts and Patronage of Jacques d'Armagnac which catalogues his vast collection. I edited the PDF to enable word-search as it's an 800 page volume and that will make using it much easier. Here's what I found:

Evidently, in an illustrated copy of the Prose Tristan, Gauvain is depicted with "rose arms with gold double-headed eagle." Later in the same text, Mordret's heraldry is described the same but with "a white horizontal bar through it," and Agravain's is once again identical to Gauvain's except with "a white diagonal stick over the eagle." There's no corresponding images present in the book, and what illuminations were included are completely illegible, the scan is atrocious. However each illumination is labeled with a corresponding folio and source text so whenever the British Library's Digitized Manuscripts are fully restored, maybe we can check that out.

And there you have it! As a bonus, here's yet another coat of arms for our friend Calvano, as he's known in Italian, inherited from his pops and described in La Tavola Ritonda.

Hope that helps, it's the best I can do with what I have. Take care!

[gawrkin]

Yeah

The Tristan mythos was never meant that interwoven with the Camelot gang.

One of Le Morte D'Arthur's source material is the Post-Vulgate and its "elder sibling" the Prose Tristan, both of which awkwardly slam Tristan, Isolde and Mark into the already delicate framework of the Lancelot-Grail.

I dislike Le Morte and PV alot for mangling Morgan's characterization, but the real loss was that 90% of Lancelot Proper's material and story arcs being gutted for the Accolon arc.

We lost Galehaut for Accolon. And Lancelot and Guinevere lost a good chunk of their character development and raison d'etre for their relationship.

Le morte would be so much easier to follow if there weren’t so many double standards

[good--merits-accumulated]

Heyy I know this is random but I have just read your anderperry ff "the state of his heart" and I wanna say that it's one of my favorites and that I was smiling the whole way through. they were so cute and perfectly written and I just loved everything from it

I recommend everyone to read it

Okay bye

Aaaaaaaah, thank you so much!! I'm glad you liked it. It's definitely one of my favourite oneshots I've written :]

[talesfromtheenchantedforest]

Isoldes (of Ireland), ranked

5. Gottfried von Strassburg. 0/10, a real bottom-of-the-barrel Isolde. All of her compelling qualities are ported onto other characters so that she can embody the empty shell of idealized femininity: she doesn’t have the medical skill to heal Tristan, her mother does; she doesn’t have any political savvy, Brangien does. Insipid, limp, fickle, boring. Also, and this isn’t strictly related to her, but it is emphasized that she HATES Tristan prior to the potion, and I vastly prefer the versions where they develop a real friendship before the potion turns them into lust-drunk maniacs.

4. Eilhart von Oberge 4/10, a mixed bag. You see where Gottfried got some of his Isolde’s worst characteristics — the pettiness, the fickleness, both when Tristan does something extremely minor like not halting for her sake, and the awful post-wedding-night trying to murder Brangien thing. But she also keeps many of her fun qualities — her medical skill, her deductive reasoning (the detective work to figure out that the Lord High Steward didn’t kill the dragon! Finding Tristan by tracking down his non-Irish horseshoes!). You tried, Eilhart, but you didn’t try hard enough.

3. The Prose Tristan. 7/10, this Isolde is really cooking with gas. She’s giving Tristan a run for his money in the writing-emo-songs department, which sounds honestly insufferable for everyone around them but they seem happy, so like good for them. When called out by Mark gives him a real “yeah, I AM in love with Tristan, and I sure hate you, the fuck are you gonna do about it,” which we love for her. Points docked for attempted Brangien murder, however.

2. Le Morte D’Arthur. 9/10, the Isolde that first made me not normal about Arthuriana. She’s willing to do anything to save Brangien. She holds a castle against Palamedes while he lies down outside the gates and mopes. She writes heartfelt letters to Guenevere. She has a very sweet relationship with Dinadan and lets him pour out his heart about how much he hates love.

1. Béroul 10/10 no notes. Ten steps ahead of Mark at every turn and hilarious about it. Engineering the scenario wherein she will be able to swear honestly that no man ever been between her thighs except Mark and “the leper who made himself a beast of burden and carried me across the ford, and my husband King Mark” by ordering Tristan, in the guise of a beggar, to get down on his knees and “turn your face away and your back toward me, and I will straddle you like a man,” in case we were in any doubt about what they get up to in bed. An icon. A legend. The greatest tragedy of the Arthurian manuscript tradition is that we only have fragments of this one.

[gawrkin]

Poor, poor, Palamedes....

Sir Palamedes: Wait, so you can shapeshift this entire time!!? Sir Tristan: Yup. That's how I can look like a convincing madman. Works wonders. Drives uncle Mark nuts. Sir Palamedes: a-and Iseult knows about this? Sir Tristan: [Pointedly looks away] Oh yeah... we kind of... experiment sometimes... Sir Palamedes: ...is there anything else I should know? Sir Tristan: Weeell... there IS one more thing...

[...]

(Source: Trystan ac Essyllt)

Sir Palamedes: .... Sir Palamedes: [In shambles] Sir Tristan: Yeah, It's a pretty busted power

Meanwhile...

Sir Lancelot: ... Sir Lancelot: .... WAIT. Sir Lancelot: AM I FUCKED!?

[gawrkin]

I just got a theory for this: it's the result of the intergration of Tristan's Mythos into the Vulgate Arthurian Narrative and a chief element of that Mythos sticking out like a sore thumb: Mark, King of Cornwall.

The Tristan story was always related to the Arthurian Mythos since its part of British Celtic myth but was developed separately from that. Adjacent but Independent.

So when the Prose Tristan was being written, they ran into the problem of King Mark being completely unrelated to the Gorlois/Hoel genealogy made by Robert de Boron. But for some reason, instead of rewriting Mark into Morgan's family tree, what happened instead was Morgan being rewritten into Uther's family tree.

There may be a precedent for this in Chretien de Troyes, who was one of the earliest writers to refer to Morgan as Arthur's sister. Chretien never specified Morgan as a half-sister, just a sister. Which in tandem with Morgause originally being Uther's daughter as Anna, there may have been a tradition where Morgan was a blood relative of Uther in some capacity, daughter or not. (Parzival's Mazadan genealogy as an example)

OMG, I learned that Morgan le fay claims to be Uther's daughter in Prose Tristan. That changes everything if it true.

Oh, like in BBC Merlin? Interesting. It's been a long time since I read Prose Tristan (and I suspect the Lewis Porney translation I've read might've been a very abridged one - for example, I know there's some version in which Dinadan gets buried next to Palamedes, and that one only mentions their deaths in passing), so I don't remember that, but I believe you :D

I wouldn't say there's any "true" version, though, because a lot of stuff varies from text to text. The Vulgate Cycle, for example, mentions that Morgan is a bastard in relation to Igraine's first husband the duke, which doesn't seem to make much sense to me. And the Italian Tavola Ritonda makes the Lady of the Lake the sister to Arthur and Morgan somehow? The beauty of it all is that you can pick and choose the parts you like the most from different versions and compose your own version of Arthuriana in your head

[kashilascorner]

GET HIM