#anyways! if you follow me and you think that men dont experience unique types of oppression FOR BEING MEN

[graveyardmouth]

lol if you call other people cuntboys unironically um. idk dude .kinda weird.

[lexpressions]

The Winterfell Crypts, The North Remembers, There Must Always Be a Stark in Winterfell:

TLDR; i think the Starks have some connection to magic imbued in Winterfell by the Children when it was being built, and are uniquely able to battle the Others; and the crypts might have something to do with it

Everybody has been talking about the Winterfell crypts, about how they’re clearly not the safest place in Winterfell. I saw one tweet though that said, “No you guys are wrong, this must be why ‘there must always be a stark in Winterfell’.” This got me thinking. I’m sure this is all nothing new, but maybe tying it together will help theorizing—

Winterfell was built by Bran the Builder, or at least the oldest parts of the castle, which from the books we know includes the crypts (which are apparently enormous) and the First Keep which is no longer in use. The oldest Kings in the North are buried in those crypts, with their stone direwolves and so on. Also, relevantly, it’s mentioned numerous times throughout the book series that it’s tradition for iron swords to be placed in the laps of the Kings of Winter to keep the “vengeful spirits in their crypts.”

So, on to the phrase the North Remembers—this saying, according to one thread I was reading, does predate the Red Wedding, although in the show it seems we only hear it in relation to revenge for the Stark family and for the North. But Robb says this phrase in the books, speaking of the Karstark response to him beheading their lord. In the show, this is used also by Sansa when they’re trying to gather support for the Battle of the Bastards, possibly in the revenge way but also a reference to Northern loyalty to the Stark name, Stark blood. Butttt I think this phrase has lost its meaning overtime somewhat, with its true meaning being forgotten. I think “the north remembers” really is talking about the Long Night, the mission of the Nights Watch, the alliance of the Children and the First Men, and the perpetual fight for the living. (This video also brings up Lord Royce’s house which is descended from the First Men, has tunes of the First Men on their sigil, and the house words “we remember”) In some ways the North DOES remember. In the first book Ned says to Catelyn that the White Walkers have been gone for eight thousand years, although “Maester Luwin would say they never existed.” Sam encounters this same type of attitude at the Citadel, Jon experiences it when telling Southerners of the Night King, etc. The Northerners, however, accept this much easier. Throughout the series, they have never said that creatures like giants and White Walkers DONT exist—only that they’re GONE. And, they follow tradition more than any house we see. “Our way is the old way,” thousands of years and they still bury their Lords in the same way with the sword over their lap, still keep the Old Gods, etc. Even Benjen Stark joining the Nights Watch—yes he was the third son, but the third son of a Great House, of the Warden of the North, and he didn’t join the Watch until after his older two siblings were dead anyways, despite being “second” in line for the Lordship of Winterfell at that point (Ned being Lord and then-infant Robb first in line). He could have easily married well, but instead he joined the Watch as if compelled to. Lord Royce’s son, a knight of the Seven Kingdoms, was killed beyond the wall by the White Walkers at the very start of the show and novels, another example of a highborn man joining the Watch (remember that his house words are, “We remember” and that House Royce carries the blood of the First Men). Jeor Mormont was the actual Lord of his House and he left to join the Night’s Watch. And Ned says to Jon, “There’s great honor serving in the Night’s Watch. Starks have manned the Wall for thousands of years.” He says this despite knowing what the Watch has become—but I don’t think he was lying to Jon, I think he does still see it as “the North remembering” in some subconscious way.

Essentially, the words The North Remembers I think are about remembering the Long Night and perhaps how it is the North’s responsibility to fight the Others, and the phrase started as a way to remember that duty, and remember how the battle was won in the past.

Anyways, on to the “there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.” George Martin has hinted that this is significant—not just words. Given the context of “the north Remembers” as a reference back to the Long Night, I feel like this must also be one of those superstitious “old ways” that the Starks have maybe forgotten the meaning but follow it as religion. No other house is so tied to their castles, or they just label it as sentimentality like Jaime for Casterly Rock. Obviously there’s the strategic advantage to always having family in Winterfell due to uprisings, but the North seems to have always loved the Starks and I doubt this was an issue ever. It’s something deeper. Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell during Roberts Rebellion. Benjen is a warrior, he would have been useful to Roberts Rebellion, useful to his brother, and had as much right to avenge his father and brother’s deaths, and his sisters “abduction” and “rape” as Ned. But “there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.”

SO, all of this tied together: Bran the Builder worked with the giants and the Children to build the wall, and the children imbued magic into it to make it so the White Walkers could never pass. Bran the Builder built the oldest parts of Winterfell. Winterfell is located over hot springs that make the difference of life and death come winter, so strategically it’s a good location, but think of the name—maybe this is where, literally, Winter Fell, at the hands of the Children and the First Men, hence why he built his family’s keep THERE. And the Children helped him, putting magic in the stones that will protect the living from the dead. Bran the builder is rumored to have been buried in the crypts. A man who apparently knew the Others being pushed back wasn’t permanent, built the wall and instilled in his family a duty to “remember” wouldn’t be so careless as to bury dead bodies in the crypt if they could one day come back and kill his family, as many people suspect of the show repeatedly saying “the crypts are the safest place” in episode 1 & 2 of season 8. Additionally, in the books Ned mentioned that the swords placed in the crypts were to keep the vengeful spirits in their graves. Now, loyalty in the Stark family seems to be paramount. Lone wolf dies, pack survives, etc. So, while the Others create mindless beings, RATIONALLY, Stark dead would not be attacking their own family, nor would they have any reason to be “vengeful” towards their own people.

What could this all mean? I think there’s three possibilities, with two ends of the spectrum and then a happy medium:

1. the Children did some type of magic that would not allow the dead Stark bodies to be turned into Wights and that’s it and the crypts are a boring non-story

2. The Kings of Winter rise, but vengeful against those who have wronged their house, and protect the crypts, protect their house. This is maybe a bit too Harry Potter-gargoyles and extreme magic

3. There’s some other type of magic in Stark blood that gives them some type of power against the Others, and it’s tied to Winterfell, needing a Stark to call forth the protection;

What I feel most strongly about is that the crypts are not a danger (watch me get proved wrong next week), and might even be the ADVANTAGE needed to win. This is only the beginning workings of theories—thoughts??

**Old Nan says the Others hate iron and the swords in the crypt are iron. I guess this could be “discovered” in the books that Sam took from the Citadel but I don’t think this will be important considering it hasn’t come up in the show at all. I’m assuming the majority of weapons in use by Wildlings and the Watch have significant portions of iron at least and they don’t seem bothered. However, I doubt it’s coincidence that they specifically mention iron as the material for the swords in the crypts, or that the doors have significant iron on them.

[kittykatknits]

So I read a "post" saying Sansa running WF successfully is ooc. I disagree. Sansa's the defacto lady of the Vale and she's doing a good job. Besides innately being smart she's also getting training for being a lady,administrator, diplomat and in politics. She has natural acumen for organization,logistics,hardwork,knows how to run a household well She's learning to gauge others' motivation&how to maneuver them successfully. Also she'll have advisors to help her. I see her as a very successful 1/2

ruler/Lady of WF or when ruling the North/looking after its daily workings/governing/managing it; I dont think it’s ooc for Sansa to be a capable ruler/administrator/and dispatch the duties that come w/ being Lady of WF/looking after the North at all. That’s where her book arc&training montage is leading her. What do you think? 2/2

In short, I largely agree with you. 

I’m loathe to think of fandom as a single identity but there has been a general trend with Sansa as a character over the years (at least based upon my unique experiences). Long ago, when only two books were available in the series, Sansa Stark was largely defined by two things: (1) the events on the Trident and subsequent deaths of Lady/Mycah and (2) the betrayal/execution of her father. Then, the third book was released in 2000 and fandom decided Sansa should also be defined by her feelings, or lack thereof, towards Tyrion Lannister. Oy, I am forever sick of those debates. Opinions changed, somewhat, after aFfC was released in 2005. Twelve years later and we are still waiting to see how fandom reacts to her in the next book. 

It’s funny in a way. Seventeen years and, for the most part, the discussion around Sansa is almost exactly the same, “Starkness”, killed her wolf, cruel to her sister, cruel to Jon, snob, got her father killed, not truly north like, and so on. Well, no, it’s not funny, it’s frustrating because it seems like there is a growing trend of throwing power hungry into the mix although I think that’s fed largely by the show than by the book’s version of the character 

For the most part, Sansa has never been a popular character, ever. The trend I’ve seen is not so much that she’s received less negativity over time, because she hasn’t, but that her actual fan base has grown. There was an explosion of Sansa fans after the first season of Game of Thrones aired and then again after the second. 

So, anyways, to get to the point, the fact that you saw a post like that, isn’t particularly new or surprising. It’s shallow and inaccurate, but not a surprise. To be honest, I actually blame Martin for some of it. For the most part, he’s done a great job at world building and is fairly consistent when it comes to enforcing the rules. Cat mentions her Ladies once and…that’s it. Cersei is the queen and has no women at court. Martin doesn’t really show us the lives of women in ordinary circumstances, he’s pretty bad at it. We get Marg and her cousins in the third book some and Cersei finally gains a friend (who is also a spy…) in the fourth. There is a lot of work telling us how men are educated, think of the memories of both Jaime and Jon. We even see it with Bran as he functions as the Stark in WF. Heck, the first chapter is showing Ned raising his sons. But, the women, it doesn’t happen to nearly the same degree. Readers need to work at it so much more than they do with the male characters. 

To me, I compare Sansa’s interactions with Measter Colemon in the Vale to those of Bran with Luwin. Colemon speaks with and takes guidance from Sansa in the same way Maester Luwin did with Ned/Cat, but much less so with Bran. 

And let’s look at this:

Maddy and Gretchel were waiting outside with Maester Colemon. The maester had washed the night soil from his hair and changed his robe. Robert’s squires had turned up as well. Terrance and Gyles could always sniff out trouble.“Lord Robert is feeling stronger,” Alayne told the serving women. “Fetch hot water for his bath, but see you don’t scald him. And do not pull on his hair when you brush out the tangles, he hates that.” One of the squires sniggered, until she said, “Terrance, lay out his lordship’s riding clothes and his warmest cloak. Gyles, you may clean up that broken chamber pot.”

- Alayne II, aFfC

The household is taking orders from Sansa here too. And when her authority is questioned:

Gyles Grafton made a face. “I’m no scrubwoman.“Do as Lady Alayne commands, or Lothor Brune will hear of it,” said Maester Colemon. He followed her along the hallway and down the twisting stairs. “I am grateful for your intercession, my lady. You have a way with him.” He hesitated. “Did you observe any shaking while you were with him?”

- Alayne II, aFfC

This chapter shows Sansa shutting down the Eyrie and preparing for the entire household to take up residence in the gates of the moon. It’s exactly what would be expected of the Lady of the Vale. 

And if there is any further doubt, the first Alayne chapter is one long bit of political theater:

“She did indeed. She saw to the mulling of the wine first, found a suitable wheel of sharp white cheese, and commanded the cook to bake bread enough for twenty, in case the Lords Declarant brought more men than expected. Once they eat our bread and salt they are our guests and cannot harm us. The Freys had broken all the laws of hospitality when they’d murdered her lady mother and her brother at the Twins, but she could not believe that a lord as noble as Yohn Royce would ever stoop to do the same.The solar next. Its floor was covered by a Myrish carpet, so there was no need to lay down rushes. Alayne asked two serving men to erect the trestle table and bring up eight of the heavy oak-and-leather chairs. For a feast she would have placed one at the head of the table, one at the foot, and three along each side, but this was no feast. She had the men arrange six chairs on one side of the table, two on the other. By now the Lords Declarant might have climbed as far as Snow. It took most of a day to make the climb, even on muleback. Afoot, most men took several days.It might be that the lords would talk late into the night. They would need fresh candles. After Maddy laid the fire, she sent her down to find the scented beeswax candles Lord Waxley had given Lady Lysa when he sought to win her hand. Then she visited the kitchens once again, to make certain of the wine and bread. All seemed well in hand, and there was still time enough for her to bathe and wash her hair and change.”

- Alayne I, aFfC

This isn’t GRRM being overly verbose here or falling in love with his food descriptions. It’s Sansa setting up a stage, thinking through everything from guest right to the type of table and chairs and their placement. Remember, these are not random guests, these are six individuals that are contesting LF’s hold on SR and the Vale. Everything matters. 

It’s no different than the Lannisters in the throne room after the Battle of the BW. That’s one long bit of political theatre too, with the rehearsed scene between Joffrey and Loras or Tywin riding in atop his horse. It’s presentation and Sansa is doing a really good job here of setting everything up to their advantage. 

After this, Sansa dresses herself: 

“There was a gown of purple silk that gave her pause, and another of dark blue velvet slashed with silver that would have woken all the color in her eyes, but in the end she remembered that Alayne was after all a bastard, and must not presume to dress above her station. The dress she picked was lambswool, dark brown and simply cut, with leaves and vines embroidered around the bodice, sleeves, and hem in golden thread. It was modest and becoming, though scarce richer than something a serving girl might wear. Petyr had given her all of Lady Lysa’s jewels as well, and she tried on several necklaces, but they all seemed ostentatious. In the end she chose a simple velvet ribbon in autumn gold.”

- Alayne I, aFfC

Again, it’s more of the same. This isn’t Sansa obsessed with clothes (although what’s wrong with that if she is?) It’s the image she wants to present, it’s the same reasons the Tyrells drape themselves in gold and green. 

Sansa’s chapters are swimming with this stuff and it tends to get dismissed. This stuff matters and it matters a lot. This theater and pageantry is present in every wedding and clothing choice. It’s present in the food (remember the poor fare offered at the RW?). It’s reflected in seat placement at both the WF feast and the PW. And Sansa is really good at it, like really damn good.  

Heck, even Tyrion picks up on her skills:

“She is good at this, he thought, as he watched her tell Lord Gyles that his cough was sounding better, compliment Elinor Tyrell on her gown, and question Jalabhar Xho about wedding customs in the Summer Isles. His cousin Ser Lancel had been brought down by Ser Kevan, the first time he’d left his sickbed since the battle. He looks ghastly. Lancel’s hair had turned white and brittle, and he was thin as a stick. Without his father beside him holding him up, he would surely have collapsed. Yet when Sansa praised his valor and said how good it was to see him getting strong again, both Lancel and Ser Kevan beamed. She would have made Joffrey a good queen and a better wife if he’d had the sense to love her.”

- Tyrion VIII, Sos

But, as important as all of this is throughout the entire series, it has always tended to be overlooked and dismissed which is really disappointing. I don’t claim to know her ending, whether Hand, queen, Lady of WF, or something else. But, I guarantee all of the above is going somewhere and it isn’t just to take out LF or rebuild after. I suspect it will be incredibly important come the war for the dawn too. 

This has gone on for a long time though, so I will stop now. But, hopefully, I answered your question…at least some.

Thank you anon for letting me talk about my girl!! I love Sansa so much. :)