#anyway i'm so serious i have Big feelings about the steph and cass thing.

[necrotic-nephilim]

Any ships you don’t like in the batfam fandom that is popular?

OOOH this is such a fun question because I have quite a few

StephCass - i'll be honest this is one of those ships where the fandom ruined it for me. because 2000s StephCass is an elite dynamic, they care for each other so deeply. but the fandom has been intent on defanging and purifying this ship. i don't know *why* but StephCass seems most popular with the anti-Batcest crowd who get very mad if you compare it to ships they deem Batcest. i have an entire meta commentary on this in my drafts I'll likely never post discussing why the only reason StephCass gets the pass for not being Batcest ties directly into misogyny (because the women of the Batfam need to exist as love interests first, not family members so Steph was never going to truly get to exist as a "full" Batfam member so long as she could remain a viable love interest for Tim, and the same can apply to Babs, Helena, and even Cass in some cases) and that just sours me to it. like if i want yuri in Batfam i think there are far more interesting/fucked up ships for Steph like Babs/Steph or Helena/Steph. and when it comes to what i'd actually like to see in canon, i don't want to see Steph relegated to love interest of a Batfamily member, even if it's queer. let her date and exist outside of Gotham the way every other Batfam member gets to, DC *please*.

Bruce/Selina - i can't fully articulate why this ship isn't my thing, it just isn't. i think i just can't conceivably agree with Selina letting go of so many of her fundamental morals and beliefs for the sake of a man, even one she loves such as Bruce. ironically, i think that's one of the few things Gotham War got right about these two. the only canon love interest i like for Bruce is Zatanna and i mourn we'll never get much of that.

JayRoy - i will admit when i was newer to DC the first comics i picked up for Jason were all New-52 and i shipped this. but now that i'm a pre-Flashpoint truther and i've actually read well-written Roy Harper comics, i only see the flaws in this ship. ngl if ppl were actually fun and interesting with it, playing with the idea of Roy knowing Jason as Robin and still seeing him as just Dick's little brother who's gone a little mental, it *could* be fun. but this Red Hood & the Outlaws (2011) and Red Hood/Arsenal (2015) dynamic *butchers* the fuck out of Roy and strips him of everything interesting. and even as a Batfamily stan, my number one pet peeve is when other DC characters get *butchered* in a Batfamily character's book just for the sake of propping up the Bat as some kind of savior. free Roy Harper from this mans.

Bruce/Oliver - we could be here all day if i listed all the Bruce ships i don't like, but i figure this one has to be included. because oh my god either the people shipping this *really* don't understand Oliver Queen or they just hate his ass because why would you subject Oliver to this man. he can't *stand* Bruce. i really hate the popular BruOliie shipping dynamic of like "oh they were boarding school besties" because if you want that, you *should* like Bruce/Zatanna, not these two. Oliver just always gets butchered in these fics and i won't stand for it.

Tim/Bernard - the ESSAYS i could write on this ship and why i dislike it. the fucking *fear* DC (and most popular media tbh) has with depicting queer relationships as anything other than totally perfect and cute for fear of accusations of homophobia has stripped this ship of *any* real grit. Bernard is a non-character in Tim Drake: Robin, he exists to cheer Tim on and prop him up and just be The Boyfriend. we occasionally get glimpses of an interesting character with really interesting trauma and nothing is *done* with it bc at the end of the day, Tim and Bernard must be perfect and cute. what's fun about Tim is he is the *worst* boyfriend alive. that boy is *ass* at dating. all of his relationships are rich with conflict and yet the moment he dates a guy suddenly all of his flaws vanish? i hate it. i mourn what this could've been if we kept messy Tim Drake and had a Bernard who was actually informed by his trauma. DC please let gays be messy again. also of all of Tim's 90s/00s friends to bring back as a love interest, Bernard Dowd was just a *bizarre* fucking choice. Sebastian Ives was *right* there come on now.

Any Crossover Ship - look if crossovers are your cup of tea i'm happy for you but oh my god if i have to see that little green ghost boy or that ladybug girl in the Batfam one more time i think i may explode. i have a lot of thoughts on *why* i think specifically Danny Phantom and Miraculous Ladybug get crossed over as often as they do with the Batfam, but i don't think anyone wants to year that. my only exception to this is Jason/Bucky Barnes, but it *has* to be comics!Bucky. like. Judd Winick's Jason and Ed Brubaker's Bucky would hatefuck and that i wish to see it. any other crossover ship (especially the Peter Parker ones that seem to be rising in popularity) just do *not* do it for me.

honestly besides that i don't think i dislike many ships. (aside from being super opinionated on Bruce ships, but that's mostly bc ppl will use him to butcher the character they ship him with) there are some ships i'm neutral to because i simply do not know enough to have an opinion (like Dick/Wally). i guess the only Batcest ship i'm not particular to is Bruce/Damian, but I wouldn't say that one is popular nor would i say i dislike it, just that it's not my cup of tea. most Batcest ships click for me in one way or another because i like their Weird dnyamics. i guess i could also say i dislike most ships that have come out of Young Justice (tv) because. oh my *god* why were those group of characters put together on a team. it's baffling. but even then it's not disliking those ships, it's moreso disliking that show's depiction of those characters so. everything is really dependant on the canon context for me!

[papaiyatree]

if i were someone who worked on batgirls what would i do :

( keep in mind that i am no writer!!! i just mean this in a "what are the things that i will prioritize if i ever had the talent to even be in dc comics' creative team)

1. i will start the comics slow and steady first before we get to the big stuff. i know that technically there is a bigger plot coming (probably) but like, batgirls started off trying to do WAYYY too much. they should've established our main characters and the big players in the story before everything. meanwhile batgirls just... idk. if there was a way i would describe the batgirls series rn it would be hyperactive. and the thing is usually i'm pretty chill with very active stories but like. batgirls is way too fast while still feeling so slow because of the fact the characters just feel so empty and hollow <-- something that could've been fixed if they started it slow and paid more attention to the characters!

2. tell readers which events are canon and which are not. given that all 3 of our main characters are characters that has been SCREWED by canon, i think the readers should know what kinda canon we're working with. whether that be referencing past events through jokes or characters reminiscing of a "simpler time" or maybe even just referenced through the art. i would spend a good amount of the early issues trying to establish which are canon and which are not.

3. NO narration boxes. only thought boxes. having narration in a comic book literally feels so useless most especially with characters like the batgirls. babs obviously has thoughts upon thoughts, cass'll have thoughts, no shit, but maybe less than the other 2, and then steph obviously has a lotta thoughts too. like. i'll never understand why they decided on having narration boxes since the art could just do that. since the artists can just bring whatever needs to be in focus, in focus.

4. the writing will be less light-hearted. i'm usually a sucker for light-hearted stories but when u've got characters like babs and cass i think u have to tone it down a little bit.

5. here comes the obvious part ! : let babs be oracle. make it be permanent. make babs be more serious. remind the audience of the kind of power she held as oracle. just write oracle good DAMMIT !!!! (also make the part that she's their mentor more obvious bc istg reading the batgirls series... it didn't feel like she was their mentor sometimes ://)

6. have guest appearances ! whether that be lady shiva or the black canary, we have to establish their lives OUTSIDE of the batfamily too !!! let steph and kara hang out! let dinah and babs work tgt and share snarky remarks to each other! make lady shiva creepily watch over cass till she notices her and they talk about the whole assassin thing! let! them! have! lives! outside! the! batfamily!

7. not all issues have to have all three of the batgirls. u can have a babs-centric arc, a cass-centric arc or a steph-centric arc. they don't always have to be present around each other! sometimes some babs stories don't need cass or steph there, sometime some cass stories don't need babs or steph there and sometimes steph stories don't need babs or cass there! we have to accept that!!

anyways that's it, i'm just frustrated with batgirls lmao