#anti laudna

[jcat37]

For me, only three things really matter about the whole Laudna Orym confrontation.

1) Laudna got her news from Delilah and trusted that information, and didn't tell the others immediately that Delilah's voice is back and there is a new/old danger.

2.) Laudna hurt Orym and didn't apologize for it. She never said the words "I'm sorry", just kept saying it was an accident.

3.) laudna abused Orym's trust in her and never once thought any of the things that she purposefully did were harmful or wrong (stealing, blinding Orym temporarily, going behind the whole party's back, making a decision *for* everyone else).

[soath]

The thing about Bells Hells is that asking their opinion on anything is like setting up a political survey at a rave under a bridge or in some sort of especially niche genre specific goth club or backstage at an off-off Broadway conceptual show; you’re going to get really interesting answers! They are not going to be representative of the general population in the slightest. There is a faction of people who think we need to solve this by introducing one Designated Average Relationship With The Universe Dave to the polling sample, ruining their beautiful natural diversity of guys-who-could-be-in-the-musical-RENT. To which the wise man says: “Never!” This is the little freaks with half baked philosophies and unresolved personal issues party. More pressingly, it has been noted that Bells Hells doesn’t seem to realize that their relationship with power writ large is bafflingly different from the average Exandrian. This is an problem, but it’s one that could be in-character, one more extension of an admirable commitment to trauma-informed alarming theological opinions.

[revvethasmythh]

It is interesting, in retrospect, how during and immediately after their encounter with Delilah in episode 77, you can see it actively dawn on Imogen that Delilah is a 24/7 voyeur to everything that happens to/around Laudna, including her relationship with Laudna. Delilah taunts them by saying, "I'm always here" and Imogen whispers to herself, "Always," like this is the first time she's realized it and then immediately starts trying to plan a way, any way, to separate them, including saving the gods from Predathos specifically to call in a favor from one of them. It's such a numb, sudden, harrowing realization. It build perfectly to her admission of disgust when they were in the Fey Realm a couple episodes later

[punkrockgenasiashton]

Bonkers how CR Twitter is still blaming Orym for Laudna, an adult completely in control of her actions, making the decision, while of sound mind and body (sure she was distressed but just underlining Orym was Not In Control of Laudna), to kill BorDor.

[astralleywright]

no more discourse. ashton loves to read.

[i-am-not-carrot]

the way critical role ships conform to the anti-hero/you’re on your own kid trend astound me

[astrid-beck]

I can't take this you guys

[latuarts]

c3e35 says it all

[shorthaltsjester]

.

[hayleysayshay]

yeah honestly watching the episode just confirmed to me that I am burnt out on the Delilah stuff so much. I enjoy the concept of Laudna, and Iliked the fight defeating Delilah to bring Laudna back, and now we see her again battling sympathetic ghosts who were murder victims, and I'm just not that invested in the drama between laudna and delilah, as i already know delilah is pure evil and i'm not interested in seeing Delilah continue to survive or Laudna grapple with that. It's so separate from the rest of the plot (for now?) and I was never that happy Delilah lived after Laudna's resurrection.

I love laudna as a character and Marisha's physical acting she brings to Laudna. I just love that she's an un-named NPC from a previous campaign and was a shock moment for characters and didn't matter herself, but then she lives and she has her own adventures. I like her relationship with Imogen. but i just can't with Delilah. at this point I wish hollow one Laudna just made a willing pact with a different entity whilst wandering the lands before she met Imogen, it would free her from the shackles of this incredibly established evil character, whilst giving agency to Laudna's original pact (which is kind of missing since Fjord and Percy made pacts with shadowy entities without knowing).

[waukeentide]

Ok sorry but Laudna saying she and Imogen are such good friends they don't even need to talk! just feels soooo fake to me oh my god. First of all, what a horrible concept for a show. I'm sure the podcast listeners love how much y'all don't talk to each other. But also?? They clearly DO need to talk considering Imogen seems fully ready to side with the people who literally murdered Laudna. For all their talk of being best friends, they seriously don't seem to be on the same page at all.

[utilitycaster]

An ongoing theme, with regards to the gods (as opposed to Predathos and the Imperium) is that of free will. The gods are stringent in collecting on promises made, and the Betrayers will use initial consent as license to act freely, but it’s notable, in a campaign where nearly all the main player characters are shaped by entities that never once gave them a choice, the gods require an invitation. Except, worryingly, Predathos, a being of nigh-divine powers who does not seem bound by this limitation. And, of course, mortals can do as they will.

When Lolth overtakes Opal, the fact that Opal assumed both the crown, and the title of champion, willingly, is repeatedly mentioned, in DM narration and by Lolth herself. Lolth also mentions to Dorian, (perhaps untruthfully, though the events of EXU indicate this might be genuine), that she wished for him to become her champion instead - but he did not put on the crown, so she can’t have him. Obviously, Lolth takes many liberties with Opal once given entry, but she can only speak to people or act through someone who has permitted her. We see this too with Asmodeus: it is ultimately Zerxus’s choice not to walk away and face his death, but make good on his pact; some degree of initial consent is needed. K’nauth and Judicators are also both explicitly described as voluntary: once permission is given, they are bound, but this is no different than the contracts of warlocks and notably, with the gods, while we’ve seen them make deals under dire straits, we’ve never seen such unwitting participants in their pacts as Fjord with Uk’otoa or Laudna with Delilah among the gods. All entered in control of their faculties, to our knowledge, though not necessarily with the full knowledge of what it entailed.

The Prime Deities are differentiated from the Betrayers in that they continue to provide free will to their champions and their faithful. The Raven Queen accepts Vax’s trade of his life for Vex’s, given without any direct communication from her, but she quickly does begin to communicate clearly; when Vax communes with her in Duskmeadow, she tells him what she wishes, putting him much more at ease. Later, after his death, she gives him an option to either remain dead, or to have a little more time left with Keyleth, Vex, and the others of Vox Machina before he completes his task and returns to her, and he makes a choice. When Morrighan asks for guidance, the Raven Queen’s response is to ask “why are you fighting, and what are you fighting for?” and stresses that she wishes to lay out the exact terms before Morrighan agrees to anything. When Percy asks her what to do she, ironically enough for a goddess of fate, tells him he possesses the capacity to do great things of his own accord. All of Vox Machina’s divine favors come willingly, only after a conversation; the Wildmother first reaches out to Fjord before he decides to accept. And mortals have the capacity to resist even these promises; Opal is only partially successful but she does not give the Spider Queen two deaths and she does not leave alone. Fy’ra Rai finds herself able to go against Lolth’s wishes even when the Wildmother does not wish to intervene; it is her choice not to kill Opal but to go with her.

When mortals express doubt in the gods, it’s typically not their actions. It’s because they don’t think they meddle in the matters of mortals enough. As mentioned, Percy struggles with the open-ended nature of the Raven Queen’s advice. Essek, frequently considered an “anti-god” character is actually quite mild in his doubt and ultimately more frustrated at the clerics of the Kryn Dynasty than the Luxon itself (put a pin in that). Ludinus Da’leth states the gods should have prevented the Calamity, despite us knowing that the Prime Deities avoided intervention and that ultimately, while the Calamity had a number of causes, mortals (Vespin, Laerryn, much of the city of Avalir) were at the root. Ashton and Imogen’s frustrations with the gods have both ultimately been that they asked for assistance and did not receive it.

The extension of the Prime Deities’ belief in the free will of mortals is sufficiently strong that even during the Age of Arcanum, when many mortals rejected them, and when they did not require mortal intermediaries, they still chose to preserve it until the Calamity began. Each major action by the gods as a group is ultimately one to preserve themselves (the sealing of Predathos; the destruction of Aeor; the current campaign’s truce) or to preserve mortals (the Primes during the Schism and in creating the Divine Gate).

Contrast this with Delilah, who seizes control of Laudna and who is never stated to have asked permission for any of her actions. Compare to FCG, designed by Aeorians to lose control and kill. Compare to Chetney, bitten by a werewolf in the wilderness (and the others of the Gorgynei as well) - indeed, what control he has is the legacy of magic granted by the Raven Queen and by a nature spirit tied to the Wildmother. Contrast this now with Predathos, whose Ruidusborn had no say in this connection and indeed, many are motivated in service to Predathos with the goal of freeing themselves. Enforcers within the Kreveris Imperium refer to themselves as The Will, and Elder Barthie refers to those who oppose them as being made “pliable”. Chetney’s loss of control under Ruidus is deliberately triggered by the Weave Mind, with whom he made no deal.

If we (in my opinion, rightfully) reject any argument that denies the right of sentient entities to self-preservation, we are left with the following accusations of the gods: failing to stop wrongdoing by mortals (both in their name and unrelated); and acting in accordance with pre-existing agreements. The latter we can also reject; it is not perhaps kind of the gods to hold people to their contracts, but this is not unique to them and as discussed extensively above, they do require that, at least initially, the promise be made willingly.

The former, unfortunately, will not be stopped by destroying the gods. Ultimately, such people as Tuldus, Bor’Dor, and the people of Hearthdell were oppressed by their fellow mortals. In-world, we have seen zealotry in the name not just of the Prime Deities but that of countless lesser ones, notably Uk’otoa; if only the Prime and Betrayer gods are at stake, this simply creates a power vacuum to be filled by other entities vastly more powerful than mortals. On the other hand, should all power-granting entities be devoured, setting aside the upheaval this will cause in society, this leaves no shortage of room for oppression on the basis of race or political affiliation, both of which we’ve seen. The Tal’Dorei Campaign Setting’s original incarnation, prior to the further development of Wildemount for Campaign 2, even stated the Dwendalian Empire forbade all religion and was still an authoritarian one. Colonization is the end goal of the Weave Mind and indeed the motivation for killing the gods per Edmuda. It also is not unheard of on Exandria for reasons not attributed to religion, notably the settling of the Menagerie Coast by Marquesians, and Tal’Dorei (formerly Gwessar) by human settlers from Issylra. And, of course, as we know in our real world, you do not need provable deities for religion to develop nor for colonization and oppression. Mortals do these things in reality and Exandria, whether or not the gods exist, and destroying the gods in Exandria achieves no prevention, only carnage.

Returning, finally, to Essek: when we look at the major characters who are PCs or are aligned with them who have expressed frustration with the gods, the only one who has much of a case for being influenced by the actions of a deity is Percy, who is staunchly on the side against Predathos. One could split hairs and note that Vecna was not a deity at the time of the murder of Percy’s family, his own torture, and the destruction and occupation of Whitestone, but rather merely a power-hungry wizard extending his lifespan via unscrupulous means, but Percy’s own choices render this moot. Meanwhile, the gods simply did not alleviate Imogen and Ashton’s experiences, both of which were in part due to powers caused by entities the gods, in fact, failed to sufficiently destroy (Predathos and Ka’Mort specifically) and mostly perpetuated by mortals reacting to Imogen’s abilities or Ashton finding themself orphaned on the outskirts of a notoriously rough city and later, caught as the fall guy in a failed heist by a morally questionable wealthy collector.

It is my belief that Keyleth’s anger is, on some level, extended towards someone who can’t respond nor change and who she feels she cannot be angry at, and that is Vax. Vax made the deal and the Raven Queen collected; Vax decided to take the Raven Queen’s second offer. He was forced into neither, and as discussed later, he likely would have responded poorly to a True Resurrection attempt given his faith. Vax is dead because of Vecna, but neutralizing Vecna didn’t fix it. I think Dorian’s anger at Lolth meanwhile is valid, but it’s also something I’d imagine he feels he cannot direct towards Opal, even though her actions are a part of it. And I’m sure both Keyleth and Dorian blame themselves, to an extent, whether or not that is rightful. The gods make just as convenient a scapegoat for those hurt by mortals as they do an excuse for cruelty.  But I don’t think killing them will bring back Vax, and certainly not Cyrus. Much as Derrig and Will and four other Ashari lie permanently dead at the hands of Otohan Thull despite her demise, and Orym’s trauma remains, killing the gods will not undo what happened to Imogen or Ashton. And since their main crime is considered to be inaction, killing them does not end suffering (and, indeed, should we dig into the infrastructures of Exandrian society and cosmology, may very well drastically increase it). It merely confirms that no one will receive their favor rather than only some; a bringing everyone down to your misery rather than striving to elevate all. An apt, if slightly tongue-in-cheek comparison to the real world is the fact that the cause of student loan forgiveness has been hamstrung and neutered by people furious that, since they didn’t receive help, no one else should - it is a self-centered and retaliatory mentality to lash out so far in jealousy that one would willingly destroy the life of another with the goal of increasing universal suffering.

Sources:

Timestamps available upon request but here are the episodes I’m drawing from. Printed works include pages.

Lolth, Opal, and Dorian: see 3x92-93; see also EXU Prime episode 8, EXU Kymal episode 2 for Opal willingly accepting and EXU Prime episodes 5 and 7 for the Spider Queen trying to get Dorian to put on the circlet.

K’nauth: EXU Calamity episode 2

Asmodeus and Zerxus: EXU Calamity episode 4

Judicators: 3x43

The Raven Queen and Vax: notably 1x44 (initial deal), 1x57 (Duskmeadow communion), 1x103 (her offering him the choice to pass or to become a revenant). Percy is also in 1x57.

The Raven Queen and Morrighan: 3x93.

Vox Machina’s divine favors: 1x104-1x106

Fjord and the Wildmother: 2x65; powers granted in 2x76.

Fy’ra and the Wildmother: 3x93

Essek’s feelings: see the final portion of this excellent post from essektheyless

Ludinus on the gods: 3x45

For causes of the Calamity, see EXU Calamity in its entirety, but Vespin specifically is episode 4, many of Avalir’s actions (including ignoring the hall of prophecy) are episode 2, and Laerryn denying the Arboreal Calix needed energy and casting Blight are in episode 3).

Ashton on the gods: 3x65

Imogen on the gods: 3x79

See page 12 of The Explorer’s Guide to Wildemount regarding the Prime Deities’ choice not to enforce their will during the Age of Arcanum.

Sealing of Predathos: 3x43; destruction of Aeor: EGTW 121; Truce mentioned in 3x67 and has appeared in 3x89 (Vezoden) and 3x92-93 (The Wildmother and Lolth).

Schism: EGTW 12; Divine Gate EGTW 13-14.

Delilah seizing control: 3x23

FCG’s design: 3x32 and 3x45

Chetney and Gorgynei (history and control): 3x40-41

Weave Mind control of Chetney: 3x91

Goals of Ruidusborn: multiple but see 3x48 and 3x89, 3x92 for a strong example with Liliana.

Imperium practices: 3x84

Tuldus: 3x44. Bor’Dor: 3x63. Hearthdell: 3x60-61.

Actions of Uk’otoa: much of Campaign 2 but notably 2x98 and The Mighty Nein Reunited.

Original description of the Dwendalian Empire: Tal’Dorei Campaign Setting (not Reborn) page 99

Goals of the Weave Mind: 3x85

Colonization of the Menagerie Coast: EGTW 17 (largely a peaceful one); Colonization of Tal’Dorei: Tal’Dorei Campaign Setting Reborn page 18 (explicitly stated to be against the wishes of the elves; led in part to the rule of Drassig and Scattered War).

Percy and Vecna: Vecna ascends in 1x106; the events of the Whitestone Occupation begin prior to campaign 1. Percy is in multiple war councils against the Vanguard and notably appears in the plans for a distraction to allow Bells Hells to take the Bloody Bridge in 3x81.

Imogen and Predathos: the revelation that Predathos may be within exaltants comes in 3x92; 3x83 and 3x87 both have involuntary experiences due to Predathos and see Liliana’s arguments in 3x48 as well as Imogen’s discussion of Gelvaan.

Ashton and Ka’Mort: emotional fallout most notably in 3x78; Evontra’vir’s description of what happened with the shard in 3x74. Memories of the Hexum Manor heist can be seen in 3x35.

[song-of-baldy-ron]

I'm honestly not Anti-Prime Deities but I do get frustrated when I see how hard Matt and the Players try to present this new perspective in C3- that of people who've lived their lives mostly ignored by the gods- only to have their backstories get brushed aside by a lot of the fandom with excuses of "well you didn't try/pray hard enough to get an answer!" Because no matter how much of a good force they've been on Exandria, there are absolutely some things they need to answer for.

Before the Predathos threat was even at large, why didn't any of the gods reach out to Ruidusborn to try and explain what they were? Why is Imogen only hearing from the Stormlord now that he needs her help? Why was Laudna being chased out of towns by clerics for most of her life post-Sun Tree? Why hasn't Ashton received even a hint of the gods listening to their prayers? Maybe all three of them rolled super low on religion/perception checks their entire lives but at some point you'd think one of the gods would answer for one of them.

There isn't a black and white answer to this question but that doesn't mean the question isn't a valid one to ask.

It gets even worse when viewers don't even want to engage with the various perspectives Exandrians have with the Primes, and how they can't all be positive or Ludinus wouldn't have anyone to manipulate/bring to his side. Cults rely on charismatic/convincing leaders but they also need to tap into societal tensions that those leaders can twist in their favor.

This doesn't even touch on the Colonialism of it all (as sympathetically presented as it's been) of the Gods just rocking up on Exandria and changing things to their liking (as ignorant to the consequences as I assume they were).

I get that C1 and to some extent C2 presented very different views on the gods than what C3 is telling us, but it really feels like people are writing off the C3 characters' views on divinity and their relationships with the gods as "Matt retconning the lore he established"/ setting up for some nebulous post-WOTC world where none of the gods exist even though literally no one has mentioned that would be the next step.

Again- I would be upset if Exandria got rid of their gods because I love how complicated they can be especially given what we know now.

But please be willing to engage with the narratives that C3 is bringing to life without relying on what was established in C1 or C2 (when the gods' existence wasn't directly being threatened) as the "true lore" of Critical Role.

[24-jay-42]

Since the Bells Hells Are most likely going to be spending some time in Vasselheim talking to some gods, Here’s who I think It would be cool if each member of the bells hells talked too. I’ll only be listing gods that would be easily accessible in Vasselheim, so no Betrayers or lesser idols:

Orym:

The Wildmother - We’ve already seen them interact and Her even bestowing him the first known Relic of the red solstice. But i wouldn’t exactly say no to more

Imogen:

Stormlord - Obviously the red storm, and that she’s already interested in talking to him. But I also think “Where does your strength Come from?” is very interesting and compelling for her. We’ve heard a few times how she feels tempted by the power Predathos offers. And she has already displayed her strength and force of will in resisting it. I’m hoping she comes up with an answer for herself that strengthens that resolve even further

Laudna:

Dawnfather - While I still the matron would be cool and make a lot of sense, I also wanted to propose the Dawnfather. The matron is very anti-undead and doesn’t like those who defy fate and death, Which Laudna is actively doing. The Dawnfather Has some interesting Things in his tenets about not forgetting the lessons of the past, and Laudna (and Chetney) Has always been the one to point such things out. The Dawnfather Represents the sun, renewal and rebirth. Laudna’s Connection to the suntree. Also, Vex was a champion of the Dawnfather, could make for some interesting story telling.

Chetney:

The All Hammer - Yes, The craft god for the craftsman. But when it fits it fits. And it goes beyond just their shard love of craft. The All Hammer’s tenants promote Leaving a Legacy. “To create something that lasts is to change the world for the better”. As as we know from Nanna Mori, That’s something Chetney wants and values. Moradin is also god of clan, Family and the home. He promotes Loyalty. Chetney is nothing If not loyal. Even if he sometimes speaks and acts in a way that seems a bit sketchy, (eg. just recently with the bright queen and not telling ashton) But in the end he is always loyal, such as when he choose to administer a potion in the otohan fight instead of drinking it himself. Moradin also tells his followers to remain Stoic and tenacious in the face of Catastrophe, And he proved that by asking about Molaesmyr straight to Ludinus’ Face and many many more times

Dorian:

This one’s a bit difficult. Because of recent experiences and his current mindset (which i don’t blame him for), i think he will find it difficult to approach a god. The arch Heart is a good pick, art god for the bard. Anti-lolth. But I can also easily see the Law-bearer. He is now the eldest Prince and heir of the Silken-squall. Some guidance might help him. But i’m not sure.

Braius:

The Platinum Dragon - Sam and Braius have both said that since receiving truthbearer, this might be a sign. A chance for redemption. And honestly i don’t see the platinum dragon, The pillar of justice, protection, nobility, and honour discarding and condemning Braius for something that was barely his fault: Failing to stop an ultimately harmless Prank. One of Bahmut’s tenets is “Smite evil wherever it is found, yet show compassion to those who have strayed from the path of righteousness”. There is something so Raw and compelling about him keeping his Broken Holy Symbol. No matter what happens, his relationship isn't over yet. Braius is currently the Character with the largest connection to the gods so whatever he chooses will be interesting.

Fearne:

The Moonweaver - Not only do they match each other's energy perfectly: Fey trickery. Seizing your own destiny through your passions. “Walk unbridled and untethered, forging new memories and experiences” is just what fearne does on the daily. But also, Stealing Catha from the moonweaver is Literally Zathuda’s whole prerogative. It would be so Ironic if they instead worked together to steal Gloamglut away from him. absolute icon behaviour.

Ashton:

Ashton’s interesting. I obviously want him to talk to the Luxon and the Titan. But if i where to pick a deity.

The Changebringer - For F.C.G obviously. Ashton still has his change bringer coin that he took from the stone. But it goes beyond that. In my opinion The changebringer kinda suits Ashton better then FCG. Rising against Tyranny, change for the better. In terms of Luck Favouring the bold he can literally manipulate luck. Not to mention how tremendously lucky surviving that shard was. I in no way think he would ever become a follower, but I could see this as a sort of alliance. However reluctant.

[sofigrace]

I woke up with something in my head that i don't know how to word (stupid bilingual brain) but i will try to explain it as best as i can.

This was the perfect thing to show the hells narrative wise.

Because it will greatly change the beliefs of all of them, no matter if they are pro or anti god.

Take the most anti god people of the group, for example, Ashton and Laudna. They believed the gods were these ethereal and unreachable beings, incapable to feel human emotions. And now they will see them as they are. Similar to them. Messy and desperate. But most of all, willing to do everything to save their family. And isn't that them? Wouldn't Laudna and Ash do anything to protect the ones they love? No matter the concequences?

This could make them actually side with the gods.

Now we got the other side. The most pro god of them.

Orym.

He believed the gods to be on their side, willing to trap themselves just to protect the word from them. Cause isn't that what he's trying to do? To try and protect everyone while still doing the right thing?

He loves his family, but he said multiple times he would destroy them if it was necessary. And now he'll (possibly) see the gods destroy a city full of civilians, just because the gods wanted to protect the betrayers, the incarnation of all evil.

Would this be enough to turn him towards Ludinus? No, of course not. But it would make him rethink everything he believed about the gods.

[centaurianthropology]

I am both surprised and not surprised at all that Fearne is the only voice of common sense in this entire party.  If Orym ‘they murdered my fucking family’ of the Air Ashari and Ashton ‘their ends don’t fucking matter because their means are terrible’ Greymoore aren’t there to smack FCG and Imogen back to sense (and our two new anti-gods friends aren’t really helping with that one, much as I like them), at least Fearne is here going “WHAT THE FUCK, GUYS!  THEY MIGHT HAVE JUST KILLED THREE OF OUR FRIENDS!  THEY ALREADY MURDERED ME AND ORYM AND LAUDNA, IN CASE YOUR MEMORIES SOMEHOW FAILED YOU!  THEY ARE GOING TO DESTROY THE WORLD BY UNLEASHING A MONSTER THAT CAN EAT THE GODS!  THEY ARE NOT THE DAMNED GOOD GUYS, YOU DUMMIES!!”

Good for her, honestly.  Putting that 20 wisdom to good use.