#anti clarkeman

[swiftiesbuddie]

IDK why I waited so long to watch Zoey’s Extraordinary Christmas, but when Max said, “I can’t hear you” when he lost the powers

… It immediately broke my heart cuz it made me think of Wanda’s “I can’t feel you”

[bellamysgriffin]

alright, as promised, here’s a very discourse-y post about the new episode of zoey’s extraordinary playlist and the overall direction they seem to be headed in. again, you probably know how i feel about max -- while this doesn’t dwell on him as a character as much as it does on the show’s writing, you might not want to read this. this is ur only warning <3

alright! so it’s clear that this was the show’s hail mary to rehabilitate max. a flashback episode is a tried-and-true writing device, and ultimately, not an ineffective one in this case. they want to remind us of zoey’s bond with max once they realized they could not get to where they wanted to be by the end of the season without it. they also want to remind us how great a friend max was to zoey. but they’re missing one very VERY!!!! important element here. 

YOU CAN’T REHABILITATE MAX WITHOUT GIVING HIM A FULLY FLESHED REDEMPTION ARC. i am not going to try and deny that his actions in this episode were admirable. but max could have been this noble, selfless, and caring for all the five years he and zoey were friends. it does not negate all his horrible behaviors from the second half of season one and the first half of season two. it just doesn’t. and this show has shown time and time again that they are not going to address this, they are going to pretend that it never happened without max ever apologizing. they even have him repeat behaviors like this on a semi-frequent basis. so this cute episode in which max behaves like a champ doesn’t do it for me. sorry. i’m not going to buy that max can be with zoey until he (AND THE NARRATIVE) proves that he understands he did many bad things -- some of which were frankly sexist -- and rights these wrongs. 

also, and i know this is controversial, but i do strongly feel this way, this episode seems to continue to flirt with the idea that zoey “owes” max. you can’t deny that a main message of this episode was to show how deserving max is of her -- look what he did for her! they even have her therapist emphasize how she’s living a real life love story that she’s just been ignoring. the idea that max “deserves” zoey’s love, an idea this show frequently toys with, is one i find so morally repugnant it makes me genuinely consider not watching when they inevitably end up in an established relationship.

imagine little women if laurie’s reaction to jo’s rejection was “you owe me tho!” instead of his heartbreak. imagine what a different book that would be. SIMILARLY. i think the people writing this storyline probably read pride and prejudice and think lizzie should have just shut up and accepted mr. collins. he saved her family after all!

finally, this speaks to the larger storyline. obviously the writers were somewhat aware to many negative reactions to max’s behavior at the beginning of the season. that’s likely why they had him pursue this storyline with rose and be Super Chipper All The Time. but while doing this, they didn’t have him show any romantic interest towards zoey at all. he’s been actively and consistently pursuing rose without any faltering. similarly, zoey’s been steady in her decision of choosing simon. she’s been engaged, interested, and invested in that relationship without showing any signs of lingering max feelings. so to have the season end with a love confession on zoey’s side, or to have it end with zoey and max together, or something along those lines, would feel wildly inconsistent and extremely rushed to me. 

out of all the numerous problems i’ve had with cl*rkeman, up until 2B, i never had the problem that i thought it would be inorganic for them to get together. but because of how they went about the second half of this season, there’s no way it would work for me. which is why they did the flashback episode -- a move that, like i said, i think was somewhat effective, but still falls decidedly short.

also, just as a final note, they REALLy hammered in max’s dad stuff this episode for some reason, and that continues to feel extremely unearned. he literally just comes off as whiny! and that’s more on the show than on max. for some reason, they refuse to give us any concrete examples of max’s dad being a bad dad, and then have the one episode he’s in showing him as a nice person. here’s a great example that would make me believe and side with max: his dad wouldn’t pay for his college unless he went to dental school, so max had to pay his own way and take a bunch of student loans. 

[natlover4ever]

My opinion on the (Best) Friends to Lovers Trope:

When done right, I love this trope. However, I do not automatically ship friends to lovers. It depends on the situation:

If it’s mutual pining, I ship it (Fiona & Imogen from Degrassi, Katara and Aang from Avatar the Last Airbender). Or, if one person has a crush but accepts rejection, or is supportive of their friend dating someone else (MJ & Peter in the first SpiderMan, Betty/Archie from Riverdale. Both ships became mutual pining too - also Fiona when Imogen dated Eli), then I’ll ship it, or enjoy it as a friendship.

But if the person with a crush responds to rejection with anger, or is pissed off when they see their friend with someone else, I get whiny/entitled/possessive “friend zone” vibes and won’t ship it. (Incel/ Nice Guy^tm vibes. Even if I like the character as a person)

-In Teen Wolf, Stiles was a good example of how to handle rejection, but I enjoyed their friendship and loved Stalia a lot so it was hard for me to appreciate stydia. So I don’t ship them, but I don’t have as strong negative feelings about it as these ships:

-Zig/Maya on Degrassi - especially in season 13 when he was pissed at her for dating Miles, although they are cute in the last season of Next Class

-Jane/Rafael from Jane the Virgin (later seasons) - I wanted to like them, but Raf trying to guilt Jane into divorcing Michael <<< Michael saying “I just want you to be happy”

-Brandon/Callie on the fosters: when he angrily says “I don’t want you dating anyone” when she’s dating Wyatt

-Zoey/Max on Zoey’s extraordinary playlist: Max getting pissed that Zoey set him up with someone else even though she didn’t have feelings for him, and wanted to be with Simon

So overall, (best) friends to lovers are adorable, but for me to ship it, it has to be mutual or have one character accept rejection and still be a supportive friend, before it leads to anything romantic between them.

Also, I appreciate close friendships equally to romantic ships, so I will usually still want them to stay friends, whether I ship them or not. I loved Zig & Maya as friends/roommates, Jane & Raf as friends/co-parents, Brandon & Callie as siblings lol, even if I don’t ship them.

I���d love to hear if anyone has more examples of friends to lovers ships and if you ship them and why/why not. 😊

TLDR: I either love or hate “friends to lovers” ships, and it all depends on how the person with a crush reacts to rejection. If they’re pissed at their friend for dating someone else, it turns me off from shipping them forever, but if they are supportive then I will root for them.

[rachel-bloom]

Max is a Nice Guy and I don’t understand the love he gets. Maybe Simon is engaged but at least he’s not emotionally pressuring Zoey.

he's full of SHIT lmao i was willing to give him a chance he didn't even fully apologize to her just one half assed "i suppose i do owe you an apology for not believing you about your power" like??????? i expected more. and the way he got mad at her for liking simon after she sang im yours to him? dont act like you didnt fuck autumn while you had feelings for zoey. like the DOUBLE STANDARDS. like ok maybe what simon did wasn't cool but it's also a fictional show you're not gonna get an award for shipping a PuRe FriEnDs TO LovErS ship, if people wanna ship a complicated ship let them.

[natlover4ever]

He was so toxic in season 1! and I thought this season would be better but then Zoey unironically said she put Max in “the friendzone”... yikes.

It genuinely stresses me out a little when tv shows write a character that has so many borderline toxic traits but is portrayed as the "good nice guy" within the narrative like you're telling me a whole collaborative effort between cast and crew and no one is able see how fucked up that is???

[georgianadarcies]

wait what’s the karma around zoey’s playlist?

it’s more of a personal grievance more than anything else (like there's nothing problematic that I know of happening with the cast or writers) but I just hated the last season. season one was EXCELLENT and one of my favorite seasons of any show – even though I didn't love the romance plots, I could see past it because the other things they were writing about were better written and more important. they had a clear story they wanted to tell in the first season, but they just didn't in the second season. it ended up refocusing on relationship drama – poorly written relationship drama. they treated clarkeman like it was six feet under for most of the season, which was fine by me, and they wrote zoey to be in a really healthy and solid relationship with simon. but in, like, the last 2-3 episodes, they did a complete 180. suddenly, she's having issues with simon, and oh, she's actually in love with max! her realization was ooc, and the finale was so fucking rushed my god. like max is super in love with his gf, but actually his gf broke up with him right before they moved to new york because she could tell he was still in love with zoey! the zimon breakup was lazy and a snooze, and now suddenly max can hear zoey's heart songs??? like what??? it was just so shitty and it had become unrecognizable as a show. so it's karma that it got cancelled lol like that's what happens when you run your own show into the ground!

[natlover4ever]

Welp Zoey’s was canceled so now Zoemax (Clarkeman) is endgame. Smh 🤦🏻‍♀️ I tried to like them but they literally had Zoey say she “friend-zoned Max” 😒🙄

My ships are almost never endgame bc I usually prefer the less popular ships.

I seriously love ships that are more compatible & similar to each other (and wholesome & sweet to each other), than opposites attract or a ship that’s unrequited until the other person “finally” changes their mind. I usually find those ships toxic (not judging anyone for shipping them though) and people find my favorite ships boring lol.

Like this is my list compared to the popular (and usually endgame) ships:

-Stalia over Stydia

-Cordueva over Jafael

-Matlingsworth over Zaya

-Callie/Aaron over Brallie (not endgame thankfully bc they’re siblings) and currently hating the popular but politically opposite Callie/Jamie. Although Aaron also got kind of toxic during the AJ love triangle, so I’m hoping she finds someone new in Good Trouble.

And the show is still going but:

-Zimon over Zoemax

Any time a character (usually a guy) gets angry at his friend (usually a girl) for not being with him or for dating someone else, I immediately stop shipping them. It feels possessive, not romantic.

I don’t like the “dogged nice guy” trope, so that’s why I only like friends to lovers when the feelings are mutual, not when one person is pining for years.

Again I respect all shippers and understand wanting more excitement in a ship, but I notice a pattern of which ships I prefer and which ones I can’t stand 💀

To add to this, this is why I don’t automatically ship friends to lovers. It depends on the situation. If it’s mutual pining, I ship it, or if one person has a crush but accepts rejection and staya friends, then I’ll ship it (or enjoy it as a friendship). But if the person with a crush responds to rejection with anger (which Zig, Brandon, Max, and Rafael have all done imo), I get whiny “friend zone” vibes and won’t ship it lol. Stiles I think was a good example of handling rejection, but I enjoyed their friendship and loved Stalia a lot so it was hard for me to appreciate stydia.

[bi-leigh-bi]

you know what i just realized? zoey and max should have been the joey and dawson, to zoey and simon's joey and pacey, but the zep writers aren't ready for that conversation. or to make that superior show.