#anti Maiko

[burst-of-iridescent]

if he’s your man then why is he jumping in front of lightning for me after he dumped your ass in prison and forgot about you

[psychemustdie]

THEY'RE THE FIRST WHO CAME INTO MY MIND, LMAO.

[fanfic-lover-girl]

Zutara gives Zuko better in-laws

I have heard several Asians express that you don't just marry a guy - you marry his family. And that has stuck with me.

I have seen so many Zutara vs Maiko posts but hardly anyone speaks about this aspect much. Sure, the Gaang are practically a family already. But just imagine Zuko officially being part of Katara's family. Sokka as a brother-in-law. Hakoda as a father-in-law. I can see Hakoda stepping up as a sort of father figure for Zuko, especially if he just wants some casual man-to-man advice or just wants to talk politics. Zuko would have a wonderful nuclear family again.

Compared to Mai's brown noser dad (didn't this guy help stage a coup against Zuko in the comics?) and a toddler brother who Mai seems to care very little about. Mai's family is just another version of the love-scarce aristocratic family he grew up in. Zuko deserves better than that.

[yourhighness6]

"Zuko and Katara would argue all the time if they ever had a romantic relationship"

Are

you

absolutely

sure

about

that?

[starlight-bread-blog]

One of the most common protests to Zutara is that Katara hates Zuko and I agree. Really it's such a shame the show was cancelled after The Boiling Rock and Katara didn't get to forgive Zuko...

Or give him a hug...

Or show her concern for him...

Or cheer him up when he needs it...

Or recklessly run to heal him...

Or thank him in tears...

They are vicious rivals up until the very last second of the show. As you can see.

[iamfitzwilliamdarcy]

anyway, i'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseam at this point but I'll say it again -- the show gives us two scenes of zuko expressing very legitimate worries about facing a father-figure after messing up

The Book 3 opener, with Mai on the boat, where Zuko worries about seeing his father after 3 years and how he's changed/his home has changed

Zuko anxious about facing Iroh again and discusses this with Katara

The conversations go like this:

Mai: Aren't you cold? Zuko: I've got a lot on my mind. It's been so long, over three years since I was home. I wonder what's changed. I wonder how I've changed. Mai: [Yawns.] I just asked if you were cold, I didn't ask for your whole life story. [Zuko frowns at her sarcastic response. Mai giggles and holds his face in her hands.] Stop worrying.

(in interest of fairness, I will include that the transcript i got from atla wiki says this: The two kiss. Mai exits, and Zuko stays there with an expression of relief on his face. We return to the ship where Team Avatar is on -- however, the show just actually shows a close up of his eyes)

and

Cut back to Zuko, who becomes worried and ashamed before walking toward the tent. Cut to Zuko from behind as he approaches the tent before stopping. Close-up of Zuko. Side-view as he sits down. Katara walks up to him. Katara Are you okay? Zuko [Frontal view.] No, I'm not okay. My uncle hates me, I know it. [Katara sits down next to him.] He loved and supported me in every way he could, and I still turned against him. How can I even face him? Katara [Close-up side-view of Zuko.] Zuko, you're sorry for what you did, right? Zuko: More sorry than I've been about anything in my entire life. Katara: Then he'll forgive you. He will.

I just think there's a very clear contrast here of dismissive vs supportive. I get what the writers were trying to do- Mai even smiles a little when she makes her joke-- but it just doesn't land for me because I think Zuko's concerns are valid and ought to be treated seriously here-- who wouldn't be worried after 3 years away???? And And Zuko doesn't even disclose his real worries to Mai (he does to Azula though!-- about seeing his dad without having actually recaptured the Avatar! which I think is interesting)

And he's very upfront with Katara in the later scene, which is a very pivotal one for him-- his courage to make amends and apologize to one of the most important people in his life. And Katara doesn't try to lighten the mood or tell him to stop worrying -- she treats his concerns as valid and walks him through it-- he's sorry, so Iroh will forgive him (it probably helps that she has also forgiven him for what he did in Ba Sing Se, she knows what that means)

[opalsiren]

man the atla finale is still sooooo bittersweet to me. zuko taking a bolt of lightning for katara, she takes down azula and heals him through tears. sokka and suki and toph taking down the airship fleet. aang defeating firelord ozai through conveniently-placed rock chiropractory and a hastily thrown together final twist. sokka and katara being reunited with their dad. ty lee joining the kyoshi warriors. mai and zuko getting back together, for some reason. zuko becomes firelord. toph is also there, but the question of her relationship with her parents continuing remains unanswered. zuko going to confront his father about his mother's whereabouts. iroh opening a tea shop in the city he besieged for a year instead of advising his beloved nephew in his new role as firelord. the final scene is a twelve-year-old tongue kissing a fourteen-year-old, for some reason. truly the epic highs and lows of the atla finale cannot be overstated

[the-badger-mole]

She knows

She knows

She knows

Zuko had thought his feelings for Katara were his secret. He'd never spoken to anyone about them, and he hadn't been treating her any differently since he'd figured himself out. His feelings were his burden alone, and he intended to keep it that way. Still, she knows ricocheted through his mind. His heart seemed to beat in time to words in his brain as he tried to process everything. The clamoring of the soldiers rushing up the stone stairs; the sound of the stolen air ship coming up behind him; the feel of Katara's lips on his.

Her fingers were clenched tight around the collar of his shirt. Zuko had just come to his senses enough to reach for her waist, intent on pulling her closer, when suddenly Katara shoved him backwards off of the ledge of the broken balcony. An airbender would've caught themselves and vaulted back onto the stone legdge. Zuko was no airbender, though. Their airbender was...someplace else. Zuko wasn't entirely sure of where. So when Zuko landed on the deck of the airship with a bone rattling thump, shock kept him there for the time it took him to refill his lungs. By the time he scrambled to his feet, the ship was already pulling away. Zuko had just enough time to see Katara turn from him to face his father's soldiers. She was outnumbered by at least a dozen, but she stood tall and firm, and even from behind, Zuko could see the determination in her stance. She would fight and die to make sure that he got away safely.

"No!" Zuko shouted. He threw himself at the railing, intent on getting back to her by any means necessary. He would leap from the deck and figure out the rest on his way back. Two sets of strong hands kept him from enacting his plan.

"Let me go!" he demanded pulling against the hold on him. "I'm not leaving her!"

"Zuko!" Sokka shouted. He and Suki pulled hard throwing him against the wall of the ship. "Stop!"

"Turn back!" Zuko half demanded, half pleaded. "We have to go back for her!" He was met with Sokka and Suki's twin grimaces.

"We can't," Suki said, grimly. "We have to get you to safety."

"I don't care about my safety!" Zuko insisted. "I can't leave her behind! Sokka, she's your sister! How can you just-oof!" Sokka's punch didn't hurt so much as it caught Zuko off guard.

"Don't you dare!" Sokka growled. He stood over Zuko, rage radiating from him almost tangibly. "Don't you dare imply I'm not just as worried about Katara as you are. If it wasn't for the fact that we need you to survive the war, I would've thrown you back to them to save her in a heartbeat. But the next best thing I can do is make sure my sister's sacrifice isn't in vain. That mean's getting you to safety and making sure you don't do anything stupid like trying to take on a whole troop of firebending soldiers.

A thousand arguments flew through Zuko's mind. They were superimposed over the image of Katara facing those same solders in his mind. Everything in him was demanding they turn around that instant and rescue Katara. His gambit for the throne was meaningless in comparison to Katara's safety. So what if she had willingly sacrificed herself? So what if he were summarily executed by his father, or even his sister? His own life meant nothing if Katara weren't in it.

Sokka was right, though. Zuko was loathe to admit it, but he was right. Katara knew what she was doing, even if Zuko was certain she didn't understand the full consequence. She'd saved his life. Again. Impotent and helpless as he felt watching her do it, she'd done it willingly. She'd done it strategically. His heart railed against it, but his mind knew why she'd done it. He had the best claim to the throne, after all. They'd talked about it to exhaustion. He'd told Katara all his worries, and she'd calmed them with her certainty that he was the Fire Lord his nation deserved. He'd never gotten the chance to tell her that he though she was the Fire Lady his nation needed, though they didn't deserve her by a long shot. He'd never told her that though he didn't deserve her, he needed her. Like he needed water.

She knew, though. She knew his weakness, and she'd used it. Zuko could still feel the pressure of her lips on his. Could still feel the way her hand tightened on his collar as she prepared to shove him away even while she was pulling him closer. She knew what she could do to him even in the midst of battle.

"They probably won't kill her," Suki said quietly. Both Sokka and Zuko looked up sharply.

"What?" Sokka gasped.

"They probably won't kill her," Suki repeated. "She's too valuable a prisoner. The daughter of the Southern Water Tribe chief? The... the friend of Prince Zuko? She's useful. If she surrenders, she will have a fighting chance." Suki's mouth was pressed into a thin, grim line. She was upset, too, Zuko realized. Maybe almost as upset as Sokka and Zuko were. Only almost, though. Zuko couldn't imagine his future without Katara in it, and Sokka had always been his sister's protector. As Zuko met Sokka's eye across the deck, he knew the Water Tribe warrior had made the same decision he had. If Katara was alive, neither would rest until she was safe again. The details of their rescue mission would have to wait until they could discuss them in private, but they would be going after her.

[rifari2037]

Did Zuko really love Mai???

I know Zuko and Mai were together in end of the series. I won't denying either that Mai loves Zuko. But still, this couple was poorly written and so forced.

Mai loves Zuko, but most of the time she didn't know how to comfort him. Zuko spent the time with her, but most of the time his mind wander off to something else. They only had a few scenes together in the entire show, and even then most of the time they were arguing.

Also, the storyline itself make me question about how Zuko really felt towards Mai. Did he really love Mai or is he just with her because of circumstances?

No hints in the entire season 1?

I understand that Zuko played villain role in season 1, he kept trying to capture the avatar so he could go home. His motivation was to regain his honour and his father's love.

Unfortunately, Mai was never one of his reasons to go home. In fact, Zuko never remembered her at all in the entire season 1. It seems like Katara's bending development made more impression on him than remembering Mai.

Zuko : I see you've learned a new trick, but I didn't come this far to lose to you.

Zuko : You little peasant. You've found a master, haven't you?

If the writers had plans to give Zuko a pairing, then a little hint is very important to build a story. Beside, although he was a villain, there was moment that show he wasn't completely evil. To showed that Zuko have feeling for someone back home wouldn't ruin his character.

Mai didn't need to appears in season 1, because her role was start in season 2. But there were plenty of ways to hint that Zuko had feeling for her.

Let's say, Zuko had memorable stuff that reminds him of her, or he had a glamps of his childhood memories with her, or a little conversation about her.

But, we didn't see any hint. At all!

Instead, Zuko picked up Katara's betrothal necklace, put it around her neck, and kept it on his wrist when he didn't have to!!

Like, c'mon!!!! What story did the writers actually want to build??

Still no hints in season 2?

Mai finally appeared in season 2, there was also a conversation between Azula, Mai, and Ty Lee about Zuko.

Mai : So, we're tracking down your brother and Uncle, huh? Ty Lee : [Turning to Mai.] It'll be interesting seeing Zuko again, [Teasing.] won't it, Mai? Mai looks away as a smile plays upon her face.

Mai's smile was a hint of what I was talking about earlier! It wasn't that obvious, but it showed that there was something between them.

Yet, Zuko still had no hint or conversation about her to show that he remembered her. It is only appeared on Mai's side, but not on Zuko's side.

Was she really important to him? Was there something between them, or was it just Mai?

Zuko memories in Zuko Alone

The only time Zuko remembered Mai was in Zuko Alone episode. But even that brief memories didn't really show that they had a special relationship.

In this memory, Mai blushed when she saw Zuko. Another hint that Mai had a crush on him.

But, Zuko didn't seem to care. Mai and Ty Lee weren't his friends, they were Azula's friends.

Azula asked Zuko to play together, but he didn't want to and refuse at first. He played with them, because their mom asked him to. Mai was there, but still Zuko's face didn't look happy.

Zuko helped Mai because he was surprised with what Azula doing, but it wasn't a hint that he had crush on her. There was no blush on his cheeks or shyness.

This scene wasn't about Zuko and Mai's relationship, but with his sister, his family. In fact, in this scene, there was no conversation between Zuko and Mai at all.

Zuko and Jin's date

I'm not a fan of Jinko, beside I don't see that Zuko had a crush on Jin. They were going on a date because Jin asked him first and Uncle Iroh answered her. During the date, Jin was the active one while Zuko was very passive.

Once again, if the writers really wanted to pair Zuko with Mai, wouldn't it make more sense if there was a little conversation, maybe like...

Zuko: What do you mean, Uncle? You know I have someone - remember Mai. Iroh : You have to start a new life and move on from the past.

With this kind of conversation, we could assume that Mai was the reason Zuko left Jin during their date. But that wasn't the story.

Since there were no hints about Zuko's feelings for Mai, I could only assume that Zuko left Jin because he didn't want to get too far into enjoying his life in Ba Sing Se. Zuko hated Ba Sing Se.

Iroh : I just want our place to look nice, in case someone brings home a lady friend! [He gives Zuko a nudge with the elbow.] Zuko : [Bleakly.] This city is a prison. I don't want to make a life here.

It's funny because, didn't Uncle Iroh know Zuko very well? But he never thought that Mai was special to Zuko. He never asked or talked about her, even secretly hoping for Zuko to date another lady.

So, was Mai special to Zuko? There was no proof for that.

There were no interactions until the end of season 2?

Until the end of season 2, Mai and Zuko didn't interact at all, even though they were in the same city, in the same palace.

Even more ironic, Zuko build a connection with Katara instead. Not only that, the scenes with Katara were crucial to Zuko's arc and the storyline in the next season.

Did Zuko remember Mai at this time? Of course not!

They were suddenly dating????

This is the reason why Maiko was so forced. They didn't have enough hints and they didn't have interactions at all in season 1 and 2, then suddenly they were dating in the very beginning of season 3?? How???

At this point, I feel like Zuko was dating Mai just because, why not?? He was finally home, he got what he always wanted, why not get his woman too???

Did Zuko really love her? I highly doubt it.

I mean, he still remembered his conversation with Katara after his betrayal. Yet, in The Beach episode, he remembering his family instead of Mai right after they were break up (with moon as background). So sad!

Zuko didn't feel the need to save Mai

Zuko said to Sokka that he didn't want to drag Mai with him as a traitor to the Fire Nation. But when Mai saved him at Boiling Rock, when she betrayed the Fire Nation - especially Azula, Zuko didn't try to save her.

Though, Zuko knew Azula well and knew what could happen to Mai, he just watched her from afar and let Mai to face the consequences of her actions alone.

Meanwhile, Zuko gave up everything, his throne, his nation, and sacrificed his life for Katara.

I don't understand, who exactly did Zuko love?

Then Zutara antis said that he would saved anyone else? He didn't even saved his girlfriend!

Zuko tried so hard for Katara

Zuko broke up with Mai, locked her in prison, left her to face Azula on her own, but he tried very hard to fix his relationship with Katara. He cares about Katara more than he cares about his (ex-)girlfriend. That's crazy!

Zuko : [Closes eyes in resentment.] What can I do to make it up to you?

Sokka : So what's on your mind? Zuko : Your sister. She hates me! And I don't know why, but I do care what she thinks of me.

Katara : [Angrily.] You look terrible. Zuko : I waited out here all night.

Zuko didn't feel the need to get Mai out of prison

Not only Zuko didn't feel the need to save Mai, he also didn't feel the need to release her from prison even though he knew where she was and he was a new Fire Lord.

Her uncle was the who helped her escape the prison. It was so sad considering the person who was the reason she imprisoned didn't help her. He didn't have to waited all night for her forgiveness.

Zuko : Mai! You're okay! They let you out of prison? Mai : My uncle pulled some strings. And it doesn't hurt when the new Fire Lord is your boyfriend. Zuko : So does this mean you don't hate me anymore?

No, Mai. If I were you, I would really hurt and hate him so bad. You should realise that he didn't really love you.

This is the reason why Maiko was one of my least favourite ATLA ship. Because, Mai was there or not wouldn't affect Zuko's arc in the slightest. She didn't really matter to him.

I can't ship them just because they kiss a few times, while their story is poorly written and so forced.

[lieuxtenant]

my favourite zutara trope is always gonna be them liking each other by the end of book 3 but trying to let it go for the sake of a@ng’s feelings because kat/ang canon is written so so one sided that doesn’t feel like a stretch at all

katara’s feelings towards a@ng are framed as a reward for his personal growth, we don’t get a real glimpse into katara’s pov on their relationship, her and zuko could’ve been in love with each other the whole time, they actually were cause I said so

(don’t even let me start with mai/ko because this pairing is just a disaster, mai is barely a character, she’s more like a prompt and the fact they paired zuko after everything they did for his character with the redemption arc with miss colonization poster girl n. 2 (cool and edgy ver.) showcases how little bryke really cares about the themes they choose to appropriate for their cartoon and that their hatred for zutara has nothing to do with with politics and everything to do with their “nice guys finish last” mentality)

[forevermore05]

Zuko and his protectiveness over Katara backfired on the show

I think we're all quite aware of the fact that Zuko is canonically very protective over Katara

Exhibit A

When he saves Katara from falling rubble in the Western air temple.

Exhibit B

When he protects Katara from flames in that same episode when she is about to blood bend that fire nation soldier.

Exhibit C

The famous Agni Kai where he take lightning for Katara

Now why are these so significant? I think these are big gestures are to show Zuko's efforts to make amends after what he did to Katara. It could be argued these are very extreme ways of making it up to her because these came at the cost of his life. But this also goes to show his character development, as he is willing to protect Katara from danger. For me, one of the reasons why I ship them is because of his protectiveness. It's refreshing to see a character that has always been there to help and to be a support system to others be protected by someone else. I think it can be very fulfilling as a viewer. This effort that was made to write their relationship was so genuine, and it felt so heartfelt as the viewer, that it just made their dynamic one of the strongest in the show. Whether that be romantically or just platonically, their dynamic is probably one of the best in my opinion.

Now, with all that his protectiveness towards Katara immediately evaporate after the last Agni Kai which was pretty shocking, as they didn't get time to be able to talk about what happened. I feel like it removes a piece of genuineness from the show that the characters care for each other. And of course I know a reason why this could have happened is because, well, Kataang and Maiko exist. I think what made their dynamics so strong is because of their protectiveness for one another. Especially, Zuko's protectiveness over Katara. When it was removed in the comics, it felt like a bond had been destroyed because a big part of their dynamic was protecting each other and being there for each other, and having that level of communication. They were protecting each other through their communication and through their support for one another.

How I feel like it backfired on the show is that it created a bit of an emptiness in both of the characters. Especially when they interacted, it felt more distant in the comics, and it felt as if they were strangers. Zuko's writing, which leads to him being protective over her, is so poignant in their relationship that once it is removed it creates a hole in a way it makes his character feel more hollow in his relationship with Katara. It feels like an effort to create a divide and an erasure of their past and how significant his taking lightning for her was. A show that is built of meaningful character relationships took a piece of its own heart out and of its own show and stabbed it in front of all of us when it came to the erasure of Zutara. So they could push the canon ships. They were willing to remove that important element of character relationships for 2 poorly written couples.

I think it creates a level of ingenuity in this show. That is not shocking as many of Katara's other love interests met the same fate of ingenuity, whether that be Jet or Haru. Where she's never able to show her feelings about these people. Which I find quite strange seeing how the show aims to create depth and talk about feelings that actually provoke feelings in you. They don't actually go in-depth with what the leading lady's thoughts are about other people. For all the sake of keeping the focus on Kataang it costs the good writing for Katara to be able to feel complex emotions about the other male interests in her life. And it leads to a rough ending for a strong dynamic like Zuko and Katara that shows their desperation for Kataang at the cost of good writing especially for Katara.

[burst-of-iridescent]

antis will hate on zutara for being a colonizer/colonized ship and then turn around and ship zuko with mai — the girl who was at best indifferent to her country’s imperialism while enjoying the privileges of being a high-ranking member of the colonizing state, and at worst actively complicit in said colonization, without ever undergoing any growth or showing any signs of disagreement with the ruling regime, even till the very end — and expect people to take them seriously lmfaooo

[sneezypeasy]

Why I Deliberately Avoided the "Colonizer" Argument in my Zutara Thesis - and Why I'll Continue to Avoid it Forever

This is a question that occasionally comes up under my Zutara video essay, because somehow in 2 hours worth of content I still didn't manage to address everything (lol.) But this argument specifically is one I made a point of avoiding entirely, and there are some slightly complicated reasons behind that. I figure I'll write them all out here.

From a surface-level perspective, Zuko's whole arc, his raison d'etre, is to be a de-colonizer. Zuko's redemption arc is kinda all about being a de-colonizer, and his redemption arc is probably like the most talked about plot point of ATLA, so from a basic media literacy standpoint, the whole argument is unsound in the first place, and on that basis alone I find it childish to even entertain as an argument worth engaging with, to be honest.

(At least one person in my comments pointed out that if any ship's "political implications" are problematic in some way, it really ought to be Maiko, as Mai herself is never shown or suggested to be a strong candidate for being a de-colonizing co-ruler alongside Zuko. If anything her attitudes towards lording over servants/underlings would make her… a less than suitable choice for this role, but I digress.)

But the reason I avoided rebutting this particular argument in my video goes deeper than that. From what I've observed of fandom discourse, I find that the colonizer argument is usually an attempt to smear the ship as "problematic" - i.e., this ship is an immoral dynamic, which would make it problematic to depict as canon (and by extension, if you ship it regardless, you're probably problematic yourself.)

And here is where I end up taking a stand that differentiates me from the more authoritarian sectors of fandom.

I'm not here to be the fandom morality police. When it comes to lit crit, I'm really just here to talk about good vs. bad writing. (And when I say "good", I mean structurally sound, thematically cohesive, etc; works that are well-written - I don't mean works that are morally virtuous. More on this in a minute.) So the whole colonizer angle isn't something I'm interested in discussing, for the same reason that I actually avoided discussing Katara "mothering" Aang or the "problematic" aspects of the Kataang ship (such as how he kissed her twice without her consent). My whole entire sections on "Kataang bad" or "Maiko bad" in my 2 hour video was specifically, "how are they written in a way that did a disservice to the story", and "how making them false leads would have created valuable meaning". I deliberately avoided making an argument that consisted purely of, "here's how Kataang/Maiko toxic and Zutara wholesome, hence Zutara superiority, the end".

Why am I not willing to be the fandom morality police? Two reasons:

I don't really have a refined take on these subjects anyway. Unless a piece of literature or art happens to touch on a particular issue that resonates with me personally, the moral value of art is something that doesn't usually spark my interest, so I rarely have much to say on it to begin with. On the whole "colonizer ship" subject specifically, other people who have more passion and knowledge than me on the topic can (and have) put their arguments into words far better than I ever could. I'm more than happy to defer to their take(s), because honestly, they can do these subjects justice in a way I can't. Passing the mic over to someone else is the most responsible thing I can do here, lol. But more importantly:

I reject the conflation of literary merit with moral virtue. It is my opinion that a good story well-told is not always, and does not have to be, a story free from moral vices/questionable themes. In my opinion, there are good problematic stories and bad "pure" stories and literally everything in between. To go one step further, I believe that there are ways that a romance can come off "icky", and then there are ways that it might actually be bad for the story, and meming/shitposting aside, the fact that these two things don't always neatly align is not only a truth I recognise about art but also one of those truths that makes art incredibly interesting to me! So on the one hand, I don't think it is either fair or accurate to conflate literary "goodness" with moral "goodness". On a more serious note, I not only find this type of conflation unfair/inaccurate, I also find it potentially dangerous - and this is why I am really critical of this mindset beyond just disagreeing with it factually. What I see is that people who espouse this rhetoric tend to encourage (or even personally engage in) wilful blindness one way or the other, because ultimately, viewing art through these lens ends up boxing all art into either "morally permissible" or "morally impermissible" categories, and shames anyone enjoying art in the "morally impermissible" box. Unfortunately, I see a lot of people responding to this by A) making excuses for art that they guiltily love despite its problematic elements and/or B) denying the value of any art that they are unable to defend as free from moral wickedness.

Now, I'm not saying that media shouldn't be critiqued on its moral virtue. I actually think morally critiquing art has its place, and assuming it's being done in good faith, it absolutely should be done, and probably even more often than it is now.

Because here's the truth: Sometimes, a story can be really good. Sometimes, you can have a genuinely amazing story with well developed characters and powerful themes that resonate deeply with anyone who reads it. Sometimes, a story can be all of these things - and still be problematic.*

(Or, sometimes a story can be all of those things, and still be written by a problematic author.)

That's why I say, when people conflate moral art with good art, they become blind to the possibility that the art they like being potentially immoral (or vice versa). If only "bad art" is immoral, how can the art that tells the story hitting all the right beats and with perfect rhythm and emotional depth, be ever problematic?

(And how can the art I love, be ever problematic?)

This is why I reject the idea that literary merit = moral virtue (or vice versa) - because I do care about holding art accountable. Even the art that is "good art". Actually, especially the art that is "good art". Especially the art that is well loved and respected and appreciated. The failure to distinguish literary critique from moral critique bothers me on a personal level because I think that conflating the two results in the detriment of both - the latter being the most concerning to me, actually.

So while I respect the inherent value of moral criticism, I'm really not a fan of any argument that presents moral criticism as equivalent to literary criticism, and I will call that out when I see it. And from what I've observed, a lot of the "but Zutara is a colonizer ship" tries to do exactly that, which is why I find it a dishonest and frankly harmful media analysis framework to begin with.

But even when it is done in good faith, moral criticism of art is also just something I personally am neither interested nor good at talking about, and I prefer to talk about the things that I am interested and good at talking about.

(And some people are genuinely good at tackling the moral side of things! I mean, I for one really enjoyed Lindsay Ellis's take on Rent contextualising it within the broader political landscape at the time to show how it's not the progressive queer story it might otherwise appear to be. Moral critique has value, and has its place, and there are definitely circumstances where it can lead to societal progress. Just because I'm not personally interested in addressing it doesn't mean nobody else can do it let alone that nobody else should do it, but also, just because it can and should be done, doesn't mean that it's the only "one true way" to approach lit crit by anyone ever. You know, sometimes... two things… can be true… at once?)

Anyway, if anyone reading this far has recognised that this is basically a variant of the proship vs. antiship debate, you're right, it is. And on that note, I'm just going to leave some links here. I've said about as much as I'm willing/able to say on this subject, but in case anyone is interested in delving deeper into the philosophy behind my convictions, including why I believe leftist authoritarian rhetoric is harmful, and why the whole "but it would be problematic in real life" is an anti-ship argument that doesn't always hold up to scrutiny, I highly recommend these posts/threads:

In general this blog is pretty solid; I agree with almost all of their takes - though they focus more specifically on fanfic/fanart than mainstream media, and I think quite a lot of their arguments are at least somewhat appropriate to extrapolate to mainstream media as well.

I also strongly recommend Bob Altemeyer's book "The Authoritarians" which the author, a verified giga chad, actually made free to download as a pdf, here. His work focuses primarily on right-wing authoritarians, but a lot of his research and conclusions are, you guessed it, applicable to left-wing authoritarians also.

And if you're an anti yourself, welp, you won't find support from me here. This is not an anti-ship safe space, sorrynotsorry 👆

In conclusion, honestly any "but Zutara is problematic" argument is one I'm likely to consider unsound to begin with, let alone the "Zutara is a colonizer ship" argument - but even if it wasn't, it's not something I'm interested in discussing, even if I recognise there are contexts where these discussions have value. I resent the idea that just because I have refined opinions on one aspect of a discussion means I must have (and be willing to preach) refined opinions on all aspects of said discussion. (I don't mean to sound reproachful here - actually the vast majority of the comments I get on my video/tumblr are really sweet and respectful, but I do get a handful of silly comments here and there and I'm at the point where I do feel like this is something worth saying.) Anyway, I'm quite happy to defer to other analysts who have the passion and knowledge to give complicated topics the justice they deserve. All I request is that care is taken not to conflate literary criticism with moral criticism to the detriment of both - and I think it's important to acknowledge when that is indeed happening. And respectfully, don't expect me to give my own take on the matter when other people are already willing and able to put their thoughts into words so much better than me. Peace ✌

*P.S. This works for real life too, by the way. There are people out there who are genuinely not only charming and likeable, but also generous, charitable and warm to the vast majority of the people they know. They may also be amazing at their work, and if they have a job that involves saving lives like firefighting or surgery or w.e, they may even be the reason dozens of people are still alive today. They may honestly do a lot of things you'd have to concede are "good" deeds.

They may be all of these things, and still be someone's abuser. 🙃

Two things can be true at once. It's important never to forget that.

[kittenfangirl20]

I love my mom so much, we introduced her to Avatar the Last Airbender and I told her the original plan was to have Zuko and Katara get together romantically and she responded with “That actually makes sense.”

[yourhighness6]

Me, screaming into the void: I DON'T HATE MAI I JUST FEEL LIKE SHE NEEDED MORE DEVELOPMENT OUTSIDE OF ZUKO AND HER ARC SHOULDN'T REVOLVE AROUND HER LOVE INTEREST

Also me, still screaming into the void: I DON'T HATE AANG I JUST QUESTION WHETHER HIS ROMANTIC INTEREST IN KATARA BRINGS OUT THE BEST SIDES OF HIM AND FEEL AS THOUGH HE AND HIS DEVELOPMENT IS NOT ABOVE NECESSARY CRITICISM

[starlight-bread-blog]

Zuko Doesn't Like 𝖬𝖺𝗂's Apathy

But I already hear you say, "These lines are from fights. He's angry and says things he normally wouldn't". I would argue that even though he's angry, his anger has to stem from some truth, but okay.

Here he's trying to appeal to 𝖬𝖺𝗂, appreciaying her, and is doing so through the one time she isn't her normal, apathetic self. Clearly he likes her, but he wishes she was someone else.

But you know who does have passion? Who does express herself?