#and with jiang he didn't even see him as some horrible monster

[bansheenolan]

That isn't human. One of you put it out of its misery.

[mikkeneko]

For choose violence ask game: 6, 12, 21, 24 (I was thinking mdzs but if you prefer to do them for another fandom go for it!)

Lots of options! Starting from the top!

6. which ship fans are the most annoying? ... for SVSSS.

I considered this for MDZS, but nothing really fit the bill. Other people doing this meme have named some subsets of WangXian stans, and while I can see the frustration, my OTP is also WangXian so those don't usually annoy me personally. XiYao and other 3Zun combos don't impinge on my enjoyment any, various F/F shippers are fine, juniors shippers bounce right off me... there are some specific types of character stans that annoy me but not so much ship fans.

However, I'd say that there is a specific subset of ship fans in SVSSS that do annoy the heck out of me -- LiuJiu shippers who seem to have decided that Shen Jiu is the actual one true hero of SVSSS and Liu Qingge is the one sole, shining source of reason who Understood Him (what?) and every other character is a horrible monster for doing him dirty. This character assassination starts at Luo Binghe (okay fair) extends to Shen Yuan (he didn't even get there until SJ was dead!) and Yue Qingyuan (c'mon, really?) and around the point where the ship thesis was explaining how Mu Qingfang was actually a horrible monster who denied medical care to all the disciples on Qing Jing Peak out of unfounded malicious spite against Shen Jiu, I was turned off this particular mindset quite permanently.

12. the unpopular character that you actually like and why more people should like them... also for SVSSS

I dunno that I've got one of these. I think I don't tend to get into fandoms where the characters I like are broadly unpopular. There are characters who are divisive, but they tend to have fervent defenders as well as detractors (Anders from DA, Jiang Cheng from MDZS.) And characters that are broadly unpopular, well, I don't usually like them much either.

How about Zhuzhi-lang? I like Zhuzhi-lang. I don't know that he's unpopular so much that generally just doesn't seem to get much attention overall. Same for Tianlang-jun, maybe. Anyway what I like about ZZL specifically is that particular combination of sweet, good-hearted nature and absolutely blue and orange morality. You showed kindness to me and I love you! Now I will repay you by completely ruining your life. This step is completely logical and I can't see how anyone else wouldn't get it.

21. part of canon you think is overhyped... for MDZS

Guanyin Temple. I will not elaborate.

24. topic that brings up the most rancid discourse... for MDZS

Absolutely everything relating to the Jiang family dysfunction. You can get takes in a spectrum running from "Yu Ziyuan was right to treat Wei Wuxian as she did because he was a bad seed and it doesn't count as abuse because it was normal for the setting" to "suggesting there's any kind of complex dynamics at play or that any of the people involved are any more complicated than a 2d papercut monster is abuse apologism" to "Jiang Cheng should simply have Understood that everything his parents and culture taught him was completely wrong, on his own, in a vacuum, as a teenager" to "Jiang Yanli should have made her parents stop being abusive, this is a reasonable thing to expect a teenager girl to accomplish" and they are all very bad

🔥 choose violence ask game 🔥

[spoiler-alert-andabunchofnumbers]

Not to mention Jin Ling then trying to turn all of his hatred onto Wen Ning afterwards. He's a kid who's been reminded of his parents' deaths with every breath he takes, only having stories about them and being fed Jiang Cheng's unhinged hatred for all the love that was lost. If Wei Wuxian turned out to not be the monster he thought he was, then he...he has to hate someone else!

But then Wen Ning turns out to be even MORE gentle than Wei Wuxian, filled with guilt for what happened, flinging himself in front of Lan Sizhui and saying "I won't fight back, get your anger out on me if it'll put you at ease!"

That scene had me crying too yo. Everyone rallies behind Lan Sizhui and calls Jin Ling out for being too aggressive - no one takes his side, no one understands how much he's been affected by his life. Jiang Cheng's solution is to tell him to get angry, but now that's just turned all of his peers against him and calling him violent and unreasonable. So he just breaks down sobbing saying "Yes, I'm a horrible person!" even though NONE of what happened is his fault and he has a right to be angry and trying to find an outlet for his emotion. He just doesn't know HOW. No one ever taught him, everyone ridicules him for crying and distances themselves from his anger. People treat him delicately yet say he needs to toughen up.

I think the worst part is that Wei Wuxian's first scathing (accidental) comment, "Your mother never taught you any manners" is kinda really true. He never had a mother to teach him to express himself, to support him and be vulnerable with him. We joke about how many uncles Jin Ling has but I mean how many AUNTS does he have? How many mother figures does he have? Qin Su is basically traumatized by the death of Jin Rusong so is maybe not the motherly type. Nie Huisang, Lan Xichen, Jiang Cheng - unmarried, unmarried, unmarried.

Wei Wuxian is really the first one to A: tell Jin Ling to get over himself and doesn't treat him like some untouchable young master who no one has the right to lord over, B: openly admits when he's sorry and apologizes and teaches Jin Ling the concept of emotional vulnerability, C: stands by Jin Ling's side to teach him to be himself rather than scolding or threatening or guilting him to fit in better. The fact that Wei Wuxian is NOT a woman may even be better because Jin Ling is seeing that men don't have to fit into the unyielding mold of tough guys but can still have fun without being a pushover.

Jin Ling is such a tragedy because there really is no one left to blame. It's not that easy. Wei Wuxian and Wen Ning are responsible, but they're not maniacal villains laughing at the top of a mountain without a care in the world for the consequences. They cared, they had family who were lost, they suffered before and don't want anyone to suffer again - they hate themselves just as much for their part in what happened.

Even Jin Guangyao is such a complicated case for Jin Ling. It's the uncle who was always nice to him, who gave him his spirit dog, who was always putting on a smile. In comparison to Jiang Cheng, Jin Guangyao was a lifeline. And then Jin Guangyao turns out to be a villain who doesn't bat an eye at killing and threatening...but who also didn't WANT these bad things to be "necessary." He too was wronged by the world and lashed out at its unfairness.

This fifteen year old kid has gone through so much, simultaneously pampered into a spoiled brat and utterly isolated from his peers, filled with vengeance for his entire life but also trying to love and be loved. He learned from Jiang Cheng to pretend to be above it all, and he learned from Jin Guangyao to be kind and forgive, but all of it was lies and unhealthy coping. Jiang Cheng essentially taught him to argue with anyone who disagrees with him or looks down on him to assert his dominance, and Jin Guangyao taught him to suppress his desire to speak his mind and never start fights because of etiquette and self-preservation - to the point that he rejects who he is and wants to be.

At this age, Jin Ling's already having to learn the lesson that everyone's going to be throwing opinions around, no one is perfect, you can't easily sort people into categories. In the end, he can take advice from others, but it's up to him to make the choice of who he wants to be. And he's learned that unrelenting resentment makes for an easy path to walk in life, but it's not actually how life works. The cultivation world can turn on someone they worshipped unconditionally. That included Wei Wuxian, that included Jin Guangyao, and even to an extent Jin Ling himself.

He has to take over the Jin Clan after all these scandals and atrocities, but he's become the kind of kid who will answer an insignificant man's plea for help, who is making friends who won't judge him and will stand by him even when he makes mistakes, and by the end of the story he's matured, yet also finally learned to be a kid. Nothing's perfect, none of the tragedies of the past can be reversed (and Jiang Cheng's still gonna get into fights whenever he accidentally runs into Wen Ning), but at least now Jin Ling can choose how he decides to live, who he hates and who he forgives.

while reading the books, i remember wei wuxian’s relationship with jin ling hitting me especially hard. i was crying when the whole stabbing thing happened. but i truly adore what becomes of them and do you know why? because jin ling does something the others could never, something miraculous really––he actually unlearns the prejudice he’s been taught to hold against wei wuxian. he meets wwx, full of disdain, slowly learning about who wwx really is and it has nothing to do with wwx’s outward appearance. and when the truth is revealed, the internal warring for jin ling is plainly portrayed and even if he does give in to a hate intermingled with grief that he has internalised towards this one entity (wei wuxian was never a person in his mind, just the ‘killer’ of his parents, a phantom, before the events of the book happened), you can tell his heart has already turned, that it will keep turning and that’s what happens. you have jin ling, an orphaned child, who hated someone whom his mother loved dearly, because that man caused his parents’ death but it is such a commendable thing that wei wuxian was able to create a space in jin ling’s heart and jin ling was able to accept it. it’s the way both jin ling & jiang cheng blame the death of their parents on wwx but only the former was able to see wei wuxian clearly and actually forge a bond of love with him.

it’s the fact that if ANYONE in this story can actually rightfully hold a grudge against wei wuxian, it’s jin ling, but instead this teenager decides that wei wuxian is much too good and that having him as an uncle is lovely, after all.

[crossdressingdeath]

(1/3) It always amuses me how stans try to justify JC actions by his abusive upbringing while there were 3 children in that family and both others turned very kind and/or very moral and not at all like JC (and frankly, he didn't even have the hardest position in the dysfunctional dynamic). Or LXC and LWJ whose upbringing was even more screwed up with a LQ who was certainly playing favorites and wanting perfection, and yet this never draw a wedge between them or created any jealousy.

(2/3)LXC loves for LWJ to excel! Same with "but JC had it so hard rebuilding Lotus Pier, WWX was goofing off with the Wens"...JC was paying people to do that for him, yes, while WWX was trying to start from scratch a settlement over a mountain of corpses with a bunch of weak or old people and not to die of hunger comes winter. While separated from all his friends and hated as a monster by the cultivation world. "But JC was so lonely during the 13/16y, so that justifies him lashing out" And WWX

(3/3) was dead, killed by his brother and thinking that there was not a person left on his side in the end, and yet, that didn't make him act like a dick? Or athg else really, because everything that JC went through in the past, WWX did also, but in a worse way because he lost his parents young, lived in the streets, didn't have JC societal privilege or money and has to harness an unstable necromancy practice on top of that. And yet no one uses it as arguments to explain his actions, only for JC 

Honestly? While none of the Jiang kids were in a good position, out of the three of them... JC did have it the easiest. It was still awful for him, don’t get me wrong, I’m not suggesting his childhood didn’t suck, but given it was made very clear to JYL that her only purpose was to be married off to JZX so her mother could tie her bloodline to her best friend’s and WWX was treated like a servant at best... Yeah. If I had to pick, I’d choose having a distant father and dealing with a mother who’s constantly emotionally abusive over having a distant father and dealing with a mother who’s constantly emotionally abusive and being treated like a bargaining chip/treated like a servant and/or bastard and being whipped for actions that would get the rest of the clan a lecture at worst. Again, I’m not saying JC didn’t have it bad, but his siblings having it worse is... interesting, given neither of them decided to be dicks to Literally Everyone over it.

I do have to say, even though this is about JC, there’s nothing suggesting LQR was playing favourites with LXC and LWJ. He was strict, yes, probably stricter than he should’ve been, and LXC probably did get more one-on-one interaction with him, but given LXC was going to be sect leader/became sect leader at a young age that makes sense. This is not super important to the point of this post, but I do find it odd how often people make LQR out to be this horrible person who’s always awful to his nephews because he’s Strict when we... don’t actually know anything about how he raised them. I don’t like him all that much, and he probably didn’t do a fantastic job of raising them, but the man did try, and he clearly wants his nephews to be safe and happy (even though he has inaccurate views of what that entails...), and given how the parents/parental figures of the cast generally act he deserves some credit for that. Also the Twin Jades ended up considerably better-adjusted than most of their age group, which... isn’t saying much all things considered but it does say something. If nothing else neither of them seem to feel actively unsafe around him, so he’s definitely not the worst parental figure in this novel.

...I had a surprising number of thoughts on LQR there. Whoops, sorry about the tangent. Maybe I’ll make a post about him at some point. Anyway, yeah, LXC and LWJ clearly adore each other! LXC would be delighted if LWJ surpassed him at something! Same with Nie bros; they argue a lot, but there’s no denying that they love each other. That’s what insults and threats out of love look like; NMJ threatens NHS all the time, but NHS clearly isn’t all that bothered by it until JGY starts fucking with NMJ’s mind and the threats become more serious, which really isn’t NMJ’s fault. It’s because in the other sibling relationships both parties are invested in staying close. They love each other and want to be close for the rest of their lives! Meanwhile JC is obsessed with WWX outperforming him at Literally Everything, and WWX genuinely believes that JC is allowed to treat him the way he does and it’s fine and healthy.

And yeah, JC wasn’t exactly rebuilding Lotus Pier all by his lonesome with his own two hands. In fact, going by what we see all the rebuilding was done well before WWX left! And I don’t doubt for a second that WWX was involved in that process; I have very mixed feelings about the scene in CQL where he blows off his duties to go and get drunk, because on the one hand it does do a good job of showing just how bad his mental state is getting (and how JC refuses to acknowledge it despite WWX obviously being Not Okay), but on the other hand... I just can’t see WWX not throwing himself into helping JC with everything he’s got even while his mental state is coming crashing down around him. I mean, this is the guy who created an incredibly powerful weapon that even he couldn’t fully control, not knowing what using it would do to him, to help his brother win a war. I’m pretty much certain that WWX ran himself into the ground helping JC rebuild and run the sect... then when he found himself in charge of a small group of desperate people, scrambling to keep them fed and clothed and healthy, JC just abandoned him to deal with it on his own.

And the whole “Oh, but JC was so lonely, don’t you feel bad for him?” shtick. I hate it so much. If he didn’t want to be lonely, he should’ve considered that before alienating everyone in his age group and leading an army to murder his brother, the only person left who was willing to put up with him! It’s... really hard to feel bad for someone who’s brought most of their suffering on themselves through a series of generally shitty and frequently downright cruel actions with easily foreseeable consequences. If he got sick of being alone, he should’ve apologized to his peers for being a dick to... literally all of them and tried to make amends and strike up some sort of relationship. Or, if that didn’t work, go out! Meet new people! Try not to be as awful to them! Also, he’s a sect leader. If he couldn’t even maintain a positive relationship with other sect leaders, people who, let me remind you, he has to work with on a regular basis and several of whom are actually nice and friendly people, that is on him. If you are awful to people you will end up alone. And then JC decided to respond to learning that the people he was a dick to every time he saw them (and, in LWJ and NHS’s cases, caused the death of someone they cared about) wanted nothing to do with him... by whining about how lonely he was as if that wasn’t largely his fault. Like, he lost his family and that’s awful, but he could have had friends to help him through his grief, and it’s his own damn fault that he doesn’t.

WWX’s life was miserable. He had plenty of friends, yeah, but he spent years on the streets after his parents died brutal deaths; was raised in a family where he was treated like a servant and a scapegoat; lost everything in an event he was blamed for despite having nothing to do with the attack; had to sacrifice his incredibly powerful golden core (thereby losing his primary means of defending himself while on the run and drastically shortening his lifespan) to keep his brother from letting himself die; was thrown into a corpse pit for three months where he had to create an entirely new and experimental (and as such incredibly dangerous) form of cultivation and probably resort to cannibalism just to survive; had to fight a war almost immediately after escaping; spent a... good portion of time (not sure how long exactly because the MDZS timeline is more a suggestion than an actual coherent timeline) being treated alternately as a tame pet or a rabid animal and having to pretend everything was just fine while everyone tried to either control him or remove him and his brother very obviously got increasingly resentful of his skill and power; had to abandon his home, his family, and everything he had left of his old life to save a bunch of innocent people while everyone, including his brother, acted like he’d gone mad for not wanting to let them die horribly; had to go back to the corpse pit he spent three months in because it was the only place where they might be safe; accidentally killed his brother-in-law due to losing control after being ambushed on the way to a celebration for his nephew that he was invited to by people he trusted, almost certainly making him wonder on at least some level if that was why he was invited; lost two members of his new family who he clearly loved because of said accidental murdering; learned their deaths were for nothing and, when he retaliated against the planned attack that shouldn’t have happened because that’s what WQ and WN gave their lives to prevent, saw his beloved sister die to save him; and, after all that, lost the rest of his new family to a siege on a civilian population led by his brother. And after all that, his response was... to destroy the incredibly dangerous weapon he’d made because he didn’t trust the sects to not destroy each other and themselves with it and kill himself rather than risk losing control again and hurting anyone else. In the novel too; I don’t doubt for a second that WWX planned on dying in that siege, even if he didn’t expect destroying the seal to do it.

Take a look at that paragraph. All those things that happened to WWX. And in the end, he was kind. He was so, so kind, and remains kind even after thirteen years of being dead. He would have been well within his rights to go all “Then let me be evil” on the sects, but every time he attacked them they struck first, and most of the serious damage he did happened as a direct result of losing control of his experimental and mostly unknown new cultivation, which is a real risk even with spiritual cultivation; NMJ probably would have happily killed everyone in Qinghe if the qi deviation hadn’t gotten to him first, given how easy it was for him to attack even his beloved little brother. Everything bad that happened to JC is on that list, pretty much. Everything that JC suffered WWX did too, with some variations in the details (and of course dead versus alone for the same period of time). JC had the advantage of a sect at his back and a high rank by virtue of his birth, while WWX’s position was entirely reliant on JFM and, later, JC. And yet some people insist that WWX’s trauma doesn’t excuse his actions but JC’s somehow does. Now, some people argue it’s different because WWX was a mass murderer. Yeah, well, JC’s a fucking serial killer, and he doesn’t have the excuse of losing control due to using resentful energy to cultivate and being attacked by everyone he’d ever known and trusted.

...I’ve kind of lost track of where I’m going with this. Short version: I very strongly disagree with anyone who insists WWX’s trauma doesn’t excuse his actions while bending over backwards to argue that JC’s trauma excuses his.

[inessencedevided]

The Untamed, episode 48 - watching notes

I've got more tissues prepared because Yunmeng bro feelings always hit me HARD and that's where I left off last time

I find it kinda sweet that lwj is defending Wen Ning

It makes so much sense for Jiang Cheng to immediately bring up his old resentment cor the way his father treated then up. It really all goes back to that. The feeling of being always second best, both to his father in comparison to wwx and to wwx in comparison to lwj. And while wwx sacrificed his core because he thought of himself as inferior to Jiang cheng (not in skill but in worth), to Jiang Cheng it comes off as him once more playing the hero :/

All in all THESE IDIOTS NEVER LEARNED TO PROPERLY COMMUNICATE

Also the way Jiang cheng says "then what am I?" Reminds me a lot of the way he grieved for his core

You know what fucked me up most during this whole conversation?

Because that's it. He can't! 😭

He still loves wei Wuxian and he can't understand why wwx never chose him. Why he chose to protect lwj and the wens when he knew it would endanger their clan. And from that perspective, I get it. I feel like to Jiang Cheng, his clan is everything. It's only natural. He is the (future) clan leader and he was raised that way. It was always going to be his responsibility and at the same time, he always had this very clear cut role in their society.

But wei Wuxian? He loved their family and he did feel at home at their clan, but he was still very much an outsider. Madam Yu hated him, people kept calling him a servant when it suited them and told him to mind his place as such when he spoke up. He could emphasize with the outcasts of society because he himself never truly left that outsider status behind either!

Which left him and Jiang Cheng in opposing positions with no way of understanding the other's point of view

... while still loving each other

😭

Because all they were in the beginning, was two boys being brothers 😥

Which leads me to the conclusion that, once more, the true enemy of this story isn't any single person, it's society.

Okay, sorry that this essentially turned into meta. That's probably not what you're here for, but as thus show comes to an end, I have FEELINGS and THOUGHTS and I need to get them out 😅

I have another rant in my head on whether or not I think wwx was right in transferring Jiang Cheng his ckre without telling him, but I'm holding that in for now 🙈

That I'm sorry. From BOTH of them. 😭

THAT'S GROWTH!!! 😭😭😭

Wei Wuxian saying that it's all in the past now made me cry. So. Much. Because it's an ending. It sounded to me like he wanted to wipe the slate clean. No promises. No betrayals. Start anew. And ... I'm not okay 💔😥

Hey Nie Huaisang. Welcome to the party :D

Um ... what's happening?

Are they ... burning?

Jin Guangyao played with fire and got burned or what kind of metaphor is this?

I'd be about as good as nie Huaisang at hiding my reaction in that situation, tbh ^^

This is the weirdest hostage situation I have ever seen, with everybody just running around sind no one even guarding the hostages

The hell is in that tomb? 😳

Wait ... nie Mingjue was the headless corpse? And okay, the head is obviously seen back on here but ... how did it get there so quickly and WHY is Jin Guangyao surprised?? Wasn't he in possession of the head??

I.am.confused

Poor Huaisang :'(

And poor Jin Ling. He's learning quickly just how fucked up his family is 😬

*dramatic thunder in the distance*

👆 favourite trope of mine :D

It's an oldie but a goodie

Wwx understands something I don't ^^

Also nice to know that even when they're both without powers lwj will still protect his husband 🥰

Okay, so ... someone put the body there. The same somebody who orchestrated everything else

WHO??

Omg, I love how wwx plays at Jin Guangyao's paranoia by essentially manipulating him as he did others and then turns to lwj, with a little shrug and a half smile like

CAN I PLEASE GET 50 EPISODES OF THESE TWO SOLVING MONSTER OF THE WEEK MYSTERIES TOGETHER? 😭

So they FINALLY thought it was a good idea to actually restrain their hostages. Genius!

Wait ... Su She has that hole curse, too?

OHHHH

He was the one who cursed Jin Zixun???

I hadn't even thought about the fact that that was still an unanswered question! 😱😱😱

Jgy telling wwx that they were always going to end up on opposite sides is SO interesting and betrays a level of self-awareness I would not have afforded this guy

The thing is, su she raging at lwj for this is really the wrong address. Not because what he says isn't at least partially right (lwj was born into privilege and there is a stark disparity in how clan disciples and peripheral disciples are treated), even in the lan clan, but not BY lan Wangji. He's the guy who knelt before his uncle and let himself, the sect leader's son, be punished alongside the servant's son.

It's fascinating to see Jin Guangyao's mask fall

And his view of wwx is even more fascinating

He deliberately used wwx status as an outsider to society in combination with his impulsive and righteous character to further his own agenda of setting his own status as an outsider

It's like the ULTIMATE Slytherin vs. Gryffindor story line 😁

Also SOCIETY IS THE VILLAIN!!!

I'm not gonna lie, Jin Guangyao nakes some good points. Not saying he's not a terrible person or that he's not responsible for his own actions, but still he's successfully identified a lot of systematic problems in the cultivation world 🤷‍♀️

... and then proceeded to horribly exploit them for his own benefit *sighs*

Very sneaky, Wei Ying. I don't know what you're doing it, but good job getting him to keep talking

Xichen really be regretting all his life choices right now

It breaks my heartba bot, knowing that they really did bond that first time they met. And Xichen believed in him ever since 🥺

As sorry as I feel for him, I'm pretty sure it's going to get worse 🙈

OH MY GOD WWX CAN CONTROL GHOSTS BY WHISTLING ALONE NOW?

That is simultaneously SO cool and SO creepy! 😱

And kinda hot

On a related note, I realized that wwx is basically a Necromancer Bard and now I really wanna play one

Ohhh, the sword ghost!

😳

Isn't Xichen without powers right now?

No!!!

Puh, su she didn't kill him

But now I'm confused how lwj can use his powers

Ohhh

He's got the stygian tiger amulet?

I'm missing some crucial bit of plot here because I fo not know how he could have gotten it

I mean ... Xue Yang had half of it right? So ... is it this piece?

HE PLANNED THE WHOLE THING ALREADY BACK THEN??? 😱

Or ... not the whole thing? I feel I'll have to watch the show again just to discover what Jin Guangyao even knew and when 🙈

The way jgy looks at Xichen, there us real affection and regret in his gaze :(

Still I did not see THIS coming

He does care for Xichen, doesn't he? Who always saw the best in him. Never once treated him as below him for who his mother was.

But I dont think lan Xichen will give him a second chance right now, tbh. Just from the way he acted, he looked like his trust was irreparably shattered 😥

Meanwhile...

Wwx is tired of your monologueing :D

I apologise for the weird mix of stream-of-cosciousness musings and half-formed meta musings 😅

Also all the typos ...

(And who sent the letter and hit the body??? 😭)

@sweetlittlevampire @fandom-glazed @elenirlachlagos @allhailthedramallama @luckymoony @kyrrahbird @i-love-him-on-purpose

Tomorrow I'll watch the jast two episodes and ... I can't quite believe it 😔

I'm just happy that I'm reading the book now and still got so much to look forward to there, otherwise I think l might draw out this show even longer