#and why people don't think that is foreshadowing for another cunning character that will do the same in the main series

[ariavar]

I need Tyrion to become a dragonrider in TWOW through horse girl hijinks just so I can repost this a thousand times

[outeremissary]

4 & 5 for Dungeon Meshi? (I'm assuming you've been asked PF related questions)

DUNGEON MESHI IN THE INBOX?! This is THRILLING

From this prompt list.

4. what is your favorite CANON ship?

So a funny thing about Dungeon Meshi is that there are uhhh. Zero canon ships I think. Unless you count Chilchuck the middle aged halfling getting left by his wife or any of the several very one-sided crushes scattered among the side characters. I think that there is actually no romance that happens onscreen, the only mentioned romance is in one guy's backstory and was his brother marrying his crush. So I guess I don't have a favorite canon ship??? I'm just going to show you the most divorced halfling in fiction instead.

I think his adult children have also stopped talking to him but it's too late at night for me to fact check that one

5. who is your favorite character (and maybe why?)

Oh it is ALWAYS so hard because there are so many fantastic characters in this series and I'm going to do two anyway because I can't help myself. But seriously there's not a single bad one, everyone is so delightful down to the most minor side characters. but anyway!!!

First of all, Mithrun!

Mithrun is the captain of the squad of elvish scouts sent to the island, and is a relatively late arriving character (the Canaries arriving is a foreshadowed sign of the central conflict escalating to something serious). Mithrun is a terrible, lethal warrior with singular drive who strikes fear into most characters who meet him- he uses taunts so cruel they cause one of the main villains to despair, he's quick to suggest assassination as a solution to problems, and his creative use of teleportation has grisly, torturous effects on foes. He's also severely disabled. Without significant support, he struggles to function in daily life due to an inability to translate his body's needs into actions tending them. His life is managed with a combination of strict routine managing basic tasks and aid from comrades who ensure that he eats, sleeps, and carries out other essential physical behaviors. In social situations he's also blunt and generally opaque in his behavior, usually cutting straight to the point and often excluding others from his reasoning. Despite that, he's someone who has a certain charisma: his comrades consider him an inspirational leader and feel strong affection and loyalty towards him, and he's willing to take risks and extend trust towards others. He also still possesses a certain cunning that makes him very fun to watch. This has all been a lot of exposition to try to explain things, hahh...

Here's his cover by the way. All the covers are composed to be comedic and often aren't based in any real event, but you can see that teleportation at work!

Anyway, I'm fond of Mithrun because I enjoy seeing a character who's very, very ND-coded who's good at a job that isn't "inventor" or "knowledge guy," which I think is a niche that a lot of characters like that tend to fall into. He's badass, he's cool, and even though he's straightforward he's never naive. He's incredibly competent and strategic. He's also got a very dramatic, tragic backstory that's deeply intertwined with the plot and gives him a lot of really fun interactions with major villains- those are also the scenes that tend to draw a lot of high emotion out of him, and I love high emotion and drama! And yet despite the development of his condition being a central point of his tragic backstory, there's still never any lingering on "curing" or "fixing" him, which is... really nice, honestly. He has close, supportive friends and a life he's content with, and in some extra comics suggests that he doesn't like the person he used to be, even if to other people that was the time when he was full of potential. Both the persistence through significant trauma and the rejection of the telling of his life story as a pure tragedy are things I really enjoy.

But yeah another thing I love about Mithrun is that he's canonically just a little nasty and is drawn with these perpetually fucking chapped lips. He's jsut like me fr

Also you are being spared so many Mithrun Images by the late hour but I do happen to have this just at hand on my phone. I know this doesn't mean fucking anything without context but I want to look at this image so now we all have to look at it together. It's so so late

ANYWAY. There's also a SORCERER in Dungeon Meshi! This one. This little cunt. A fun fact about me is that there's a folder on my computer devoted entirely to images of this guy, whose name is either Thistle or Sissel depending on which translation you're reading. According to the guidebook, which is currently in my hand, Sissel is official so we'll just go with that for the rest of the post.

I fucking love Sissel. I love Sissel so bad. There's something so wrong with this little (4'3"/130 cm) guy. Look at that image. You already know why I love Sissel. It's because he's got a rancid, unstable little megalomaniac personality and he thinks he knows better than everyone about everything.

Just look at him. My little guy. I love a bitch who meant well once but has become lost in his darkest obsessions.

But like, more coherently, I also really enjoy Sissel as a villain who starts out as this legendary figure of fear- the "Mad Sorcerer" who's presumed to be immortal and all powerful- who's then gradually revealed to be deeply, deeply pathetic. He's so lost in his obsessive protection of those he loves that he hurts them and then throws a fit when they won't forgive him. His power lies in being a master of monsters, but he's so aggressively uninterested in the creatures at his command that they're constantly dying on him and the main character turns them on him just by knowing basic ecology. He has literally infinite power at his fingertips and he's so aggressively unimaginative that he can't do anything wit hit except react to what he thinks are threats. He's built up as a final boss character and Mithrun nearly kills him in less than a minute. He whines about someone cleaning his room. My pathetic meow meow. My cringe and fail sorcerer. I fucking love this guy. He spends a whole chapter carried around as a backpack and used as a human shield. The main character forces him to eat a homecooked meal. He's so!!! Lame!!!!

Anyway it would be a literal crime for me to end a Dungeon Meshi post without any mention of women. Look at my meme boy. Look at the monster wife.

I spent. More time than I intended. Looking for the page where she tore off her shirt. This isn't nsfw this is fine this is fine

Anyway very sexy of Falin to not only haunt the narrative but come back wrong as that.

[shaolinbynature]

The Stories (and Theory) of 1x04

In this very informative episode, I've notice that the main players of episode four all had a scene where they tell another character a story. And not just any story but a story that relates to the speaker in some way. When I went back and listened to them, I realized that a lot was said in these very brief instances and wanted to break them down for anyone who wanted to read. The main people being broken down are Martin, Kate, and Ashley, Kate's step-sister. It's a long (but juicy) read. TLDR at the bottom.

Martin:

When sitting outside with Kate, he expressed to her about a family tragedy he experienced when he was a teenager. His dad committed suicide (which is why he gets jumpy around guns) and feels regret because before his father had passed, they had a fight. He also briefly spoke about Greek mythology, when they were looking at the constellations, about how Poseidon was angered by Cassiopeia because she always bragged about how beautiful she was. He says it so quickly that you barely understand the story if you're unknowledgeable about Greek mythology. The story goes that Poseidon was so bothered by Cassiopeia's vanity that he was to destroy her Kingdom by water. When Cassiopeia tried to figure out how to stop that, she was told she had to sacrifice her daughter as a peace offering to the sea gods.

"A lot of family drama," Martin ends with it.

Learning about Martin's reason for being uneasy around guns says a lot but my focus is more on the story of Poseidon and Cassiopeia. Could this be foreshadowing about what ends up happening to Kate? "Family Drama"? Did someone get angered by not Kate.....but maybe Joy's beauty, status, and/or lifestyle and sought on destroying it? Which then, in turn, caused Joy to "sacrifice" Kate to stop her secrets, like the affair she's having with the family gardener, from getting out?

Kate:

"It's about a girl called Anabelle. Found herself in the woods one dark night, all alone and vulnerable. They were on a hunting trip, pretending they could love their pets at home while they shoot animals on vacation. Pretending that their marriages are perfect. Hypocrites, basically. Secrets, wild accusations, a desperate thirst for gossip. But back to little Annabelle all alone.....Till she wasn't. A man joined her. A man the grownups trusted. Now, of course, Annabelle trusted him too, because, I mean, why wouldn't she, right? She was just a child. And that trust led to something unspeakable. Then I think that puts blood all over the grownups' hands, don't you think too? That they were all responsible for what happened to her? Now, they'd better have all their stories straight, because Annabelle sure has hers. Secrets are scary because everybody has them."

Kate's story of Annabelle is an interesting one because it doesn't sound like she's talking about a real person. To me, it almost sounds like she's speaking in third person because of how she says, "Now, they'd better have all their stories straight, because Annabelle sure has hers". How would she know Annabelle has a story to tell if not Annabelle being another form of herself? A persona she created to be strong when she couldn't? Kate knows the adults have more involvement with her kidnapping then they are leading on and she's telling them to brace themselves because it's all going to come out one way or another. This "story" possibly matches up with the theory above of Joy sacrificing Kate.

Ashley:

While sitting on the swings with Derek, Jeanette's older brother, Ashley asks if he's ever heard of Berenice IV? She goes to explain that she was heir to the last pharaonic family in ancient Egypt and that she was Cleopatra's cunning older sister. "But history forgot her. She was invisible. She was a risk taker. She was subversive. But she paid a price. She was beheaded."

Another ancient story of family drama, the story goes that the parents of Cleopatra and Berenice were in fear of Cleo and Berenice's older sister, Cleopatra VI, the Pharaoh of Egypt, because she was getting way too powerful. So, the family fled to Rome for military help. Berenice, who stayed behind, decided to poison her older sister and take the throne since their parents are gone and technically she would be the next in line. While Berenice was in power, she refused to marry any man she was expected to and make him co-ruler because fuck that. But every month that went on without her having a man by her side, the civilians were afraid that this would cause the downfall of the family reign and Egypt. They forced her to marry one guy and she strangled him so she would continue being the only be the one in charge. She eventually found a guy she liked enough to marry but did not want to share her Pharaoh powers with him. This little reign only lasted three years until her family came back from Rome with that military assistance. Her father's army defeated Berenice's army and then had her beheaded for treason.

How Ashley speaks about Berenice VI is almost in an empathetic way. "She was invisible. Was a risk taker. She was subversive." It was like she could relate to Berenice. Berenice killed to get to the throne she wanted, she loved the lavish life, even betrayed family but family was the one that killed her in the end. The idea of Ashley liking Berenice is strengthened when we find out Ashley is in-fact the user Berenice4 in the chatroom with Kate. We saw in an episode prior that Kate seems to tell all to Berenice4 so it's extremely possible that Ashley knows the real story about what happened with Kate. Or at least the real side according to Kate. I've seen people say that maybe Ashley invading Kate's privacy by pretending to be an anonymous chatter was probably done with good intention but, if we go by the story of Berenice, maybe there is something else there. Maybe Ashley is to be the cunning older sister in this story.

TLDR: Martin, Kate, and Ashley have told stories in this episode that all parallels the theory that Kate being kidnapped may possibly not be Martin's sole doing but "family drama" that led her to be locked away in a basement. Martin mentions family drama with the story of the vain Cassiopeia that sacrificed her daughter so Poseidon wouldn't ruin her kingdom, Kate mentions that the adults in "Annabelle's" life have secrets that caused them to fail Annabelle, and Ashley mentions family betrayal with the story of Berenice VI (also Ashley's chatroom name "Berenice4") who kills her sister to be Pharaoh of Egypt and is later beheaded by her father for treason against the family.

[januaryedgelordess]

I'd like to discuss a SnK theory with someone, it's on the possibility of a different (or expanded) AnR theory.

Disclaimer: Perhaps you should read this post with the lyrics for Akatsuki no Requiem by Linked Horizon in mind, but I also don't stand by the original reddit theory a 100%.

--

One of the questions that lingers around the fandom is: "who would've survived the Rumbling had it been done as originally implied by the themes and foreshadowing of the story?". Some believe only Eren and Historia would have had that chance, but they might be mistaken.

The first proof I have in order to back this claim is AnR's official art as drawn by WIT Studio during the production of season three of the anime:

(Note: these are originally four different images, the source of this collage is vaguely anitwt).

Just as shown in the original PV by Linked Horizon, each of these characters are standing by a gravestone while holding a bouquet and looking conflicted. Now, to counter the original AnR theorists, I propose that Eren —and by extension, Historia— weren't the only ones to live on with regret in their hearts, instead, Levi and Hanji survived as well.

Why did they survive? Is my conclusion solely based on these pictures? Well, just in part.

I believe Attack on Titan was never meant to be a one-sided story, and that one of the various themes that weren't thoroughly explored in the later chapters, a theme which was instead rushed and swiftly overlooked, is that of the conflict between "Nationalism" and "Internationalism". It's obvious and needless to point out that Yaegerists were the former, but the latter never take a name for themselves. However, we get a rough idea of who they might be, one of them is clearly Hanji Zoe:

Another internationalist is obviously Onyankopon:

Another one is Armin and so on, and so on.

Are they the only type on people on Earth? Of course not. Notably you also have those who have egotistical motivations, like Jean, who just wants to get married and live a peaceful life in the inner cities; or the Hizuru ambassador, Kiyomi, whose motivation is monetary gain. The world isn't black and white in AoT so, to clarify, it's unnecessary to classify every character in the dichotomy here presented.

Now, if Yams hadn't downplayed this interaction, we may have had a better thought out plan to stop the Rumbling and, possibly, a less moronically cringy way for "The Alliance" to be presented.

Why is that? It's because of various reasons. First, one of the most observant characters, Hanji, is notable for having spied on some of Eren and Historia's interactions (the "You look happy — that's because I am" scene for example) but by the end of the story the audience never got a reason as to why this observant behavior happened. If Hanji really is as cunning and observant as she is portrayed to be, she should've been the first character to suspect that Eren is the father and, therefore, that Historia's pregnancy's due date was off. Instead of the survey corps discussing this info, we get some random officers discussing irrelevant rumours about it. Isayama I mean, Kawakubo played Hanji Zoe dirty, in my opinion, in this scenario.

If Hanji had noticed that important information, and if that info had been shared with the Survey Corps, as was natural for her character to do, "the Alliance" may have had been able to act sooner against the AT.

Now, would more prep time save the world from devastation? No, I don't believe so. I believe it would, instead, make them have a slightly more realistic last fight by a) having them recruit actual soldiers and weapons for the final showdown, heck, if they have enough time even other countries would chime in, vs Hallu-chan and the Attach Titan; and, therefore, b) not having them rely on a Deus Ex Machina to defeat Eren.

That way, Hanji would live on with regret, knowing the Alliance did everything in their power to defeat the Attack Titan but failed miserably in the end. Instead of having her smile as her ghost-self at whatever the hell the canon battle achieved, she'd mourn the world that's been lost, and she'd feel regret for not being able to save it.

Now, for Levi I haven't done a thorough analysis yet, but I believe it's not difficult to see why humanity's strongest soldier would survive this ordain. I'd really like to hear someone else's thoughts on that matter.

Also, I'm in no way trying to imply LeviHan was supposed to be part of a kino ending, but I'm not too into that ship so I'd like to hear someone else's thoughts about it and on why they were the only two members of the alliance to survive according to WIT Studio's AnR official art.

Now, onto the second part of "who survived the Rumbling?". The next piece of information contradicts previous statements, and it also contradicts an AnR ending to some extent, but bare with me, please.

Exhibit A, Mikasa and Armin should have survived:

However, for Kruger's prophecy to succeed, I stand by my previous statement that "the Alliance" should've acted sooner, and that Armin is part of the Internationalist faction ready to "save humanity". Why do I believe that? It's easy, first, let's remember this quote from the moment Erwin died:

Note how, not only does Eren say Armin will save the humans, he also implies Mikasa will know it'll happen (so she'll be alive by the time the battle ends).

And, piggybacking on that moment as well, Armin would've been able to use his intellect to make a plan to divert the Rumbling titans. I'm adding this here to stress something that can't be stressed enough: Armin shouldn't have had to fistfight Eren twice, and he shouldn't have had to steal someone else's kill. Now onto that kill...

Should Mikasa have been the one to deal Eren's final blow? In the canon version of the story it's shown, in a rather cringy way, how she has to make up a whole different scenario inside her mind to get the mental strength to kill him. To me, Mikasa instead should've used the devastation caused by the Rumbling to completely break away from Eren's character and to be able to see past the "you're being brainwashed" narrative. Now, besides some of Isayama's interviews, there's other proof to back this up: the Historia-Mikasa parallels in Ending 4 and Ending 1:

Ending 1: https://youtu.be/O4wezNlsxB0

Ending 4: https://youtu.be/o05UK9lXtC0

We see some petty similarities in both: how both girls seem to be inside a pond or a lake, a snip of them running when they were young, etc.; but we also see some more important things for this theory: their growth as a person (how they survived whatever the past cast upon them), and them catching up to the people who they look up to and love.

Now, two things we know about Historia are that her beloved Ymir left her and she had to learn to accept it and move on; and that her sister, Frieda, died and she, without initially knowing even that she'd lost her, had to learn how to live on her own when she was young. Would Mikasa and Eren be able to have an end like that? I think it was implied that it was possible, but other than that, as part of any healthy development of her character, it is important for her to move on just as the Eldian Queen did: even if Eren chose to live a life apart from her (like Ymir did to Historia's early knowledge) or even if he were to die (like Frieda did).

Also, I have some doubts about Mikasa being the one who was supposed to kill Eren, since the one who was foreshadowed to be a Helos' parallel, and who'd fit the role just as well is Reiner, but I won't discuss that here.

So, to me, Mikasa was never an Internationalist, but for the sake of her character, a break-away from Eren should've been a good conclusive act.

As to some other parallels between Mikasa and Historia we have this part:

In which it is implied that they share the same burden by birth, and the same destiny, possibly. Mikasa is shown to be embarrassed about it but Historia seems to be thoroughly delighted.

With this parallel I'd also like to recall two other threads left undone: the Azumabito clan and the Ackerman mystery.

First, the Azumabitos. It's implied that their land is to "the Orient", and we also get a small snip during the Rumbling which implies they have a coast (it's obvious their country is a direct reference to Japan, needless to say). All of which would imply that, as it does in the Real World ™️, Hizuru is almost the Eastern-most Nation of AoT's world as well, and therefore, it may be one of the last countries that the Rumbling would have reached. If you add that they were the first people to send an ambassador to Paradis, you get: Hizuru being the first nation to be included in a possible Internationalist "Alliance" (had it been done in the appropriate time) against the Attack Titan; and you also get that this would increase their possibilities of surviving, at least just in part, the Rumbling.

Why is this important? Because AnR's lyrics do not imply the world will be completely and absolutely obliterated. AnR's lyrics imply the world will live on but the power dynamic of the world will be reversed: Paradis will rule, while the rest will be forced inside the cage.

https://www.musixmatch.com/lyrics/Linked-Horizon/Akatsuki-no-Requiem-TV-Size

Now, the Ackermans. Just as Historia and Zeke posses a special particularity by virtue of birth (they are direct descendants of Ymir), which make them valuable assets to "breed" for whoever is using the Eldians (be it Marley, the Azumabitos, or the First King), I believe the outside world would be interested, at any part of the story, to have an Ackerman in their line of defense against the Eldians. In this case the Mikasa-Historia parallel is strengthened, simply because it would be interesting to see Levi or Mikasa confront that part of their destiny (to make the Ackerman clan continue for the sake of a plan, while acknowledging they're the only survivors). Perhaps Hizuru would've been the country to try and make use of that potential? This parallel was, of course, never used, but it would've been delightful to see it exploited at some point in the AoT timeline. However I acknowledge that continuity is impossible in a world without titans, unless one of the surviving countries on Earth are in serious need of Olympic competitors, of course, so perhaps it should've been mentioned before The Rumbling arc.

.

Well, this turned out to be more like a vent or a rant than a theory now, and I wish I could've had discussed it quietly with someone instead of just posting it here. There are some other nuances to this analysis that I would like to explore in the future (since this isn't thoroughly thought out) In the meantime what do you all think of a new AnR theory like this one? Does it make a little sense? At least a bit? I hope so. Thank you for reading and sorry about the grammar mistakes.

TLDR: I believe Armin, Mikasa, Eren, Historia, Hanji and Levi should have survived and also it's possible for Hizuru to have survived. Please feel free to point out any flaws.

[mc-critical]

your analysis of selim? i think he's hated way more than he deserves. hating him for valid reasons is fine but telling that he's gonna be such a bad sultan is really stupid [and especially because only now do they bring out history & say selim was bad which is historically inaccurate as well]. out of all of suleyman's sons, it was only mustafa who was loved by all & talented [show only cuz apparently mehmet was also extremely talented & selim wasn't a bad sultan] enough for the throne. bayezid was extremely hotheaded and you can't tell me that a prince who can't control his emotions, especially in front of state officials, will be a good sultan. everyone tells selim was extremely selfish & the instigator of all their fights, when they were younger & older. siblings are always like that?? mustafa obviously wasn't like that because he was way older than mehmet, mihrimah, selim, bayezid & cihangir to get into stupid fights w/ them. mehmet & mihrimah had frequent & annoying arguments because they were closer in age. selim & bayezid had frequent fights because they were closer in age. this is a thing with many siblings; the elder provoking the younger & the younger disrespecting the elder. why do people point out their sibling fights as evidence for selim's personality? i feel sorry for bayezid as a kid but i feel less remorse for him as he's older. i don't say he deserves execution, especially at the hands of his own father, but he did rebel against his father's order & then proceeded to flee to another empire; like, the punishment for that is execution, what did he expect after rebelling? i feel extremely sorry for all his sons though, they didn't deserve this fate when they were just victims of their father's rebellion. also, unpopular opinion but bayezid is lowkey overrated pls don't cancel me i love him but he's annoying at times like all characters & no one really acknowledges it back to selim, he was honestly very underrated. he was really slandered in the series and he didn't have any real support w/ him until nurbanu & sokollu. although hurrem did vouch for him to go to manisa, it was literally only because he was 'peaceful' [we can read that as untalented as well] and no harm would reach him because he wasn't a threat [i actually really liked this plan of hurrem's, tough & clever; only if she was actually supported in this]. even mihrimah, till the end, is quite unfair to him. he had a problem w/ alcohol & people telling him to just stop? like, it doesn't work that way? people have to suffer so much in order to stop their addictions & they're actually restricted from their addictions; selim was a prince, no one around him could restrict him [his parents could but they weren't w/ him in his provinces]. he did become politically active w/ nurbanu's growing ambitions & he took smarter, more cunning & dirtier measures than bayezid to win the throne. the battle for the throne was bloody; resorting to honour like mustafa did was obviously not the best decision & people insult selim for being cunning enough [or being influenced by cunning people] to win the throne. let's also keep in mind that selim didn't even have much of an interest for the throne until manisa & nurbanu. i also like his relationship w/ nurbanu. it paralleled suleyman & hurrem's w/ the concubine arcs but selim did end up being monogamous to her in the show. their chemistry was fantastic [props to engin & merve for their acting] and although i don't really enjoy the 'a woman makes a man strong & influences him in everything; good or evil' kind of take, i did enjoy their relationship [he also sometimes looked at her like she was this ethereal type miracle, appropriately so w/ her courage]. i like what the show did w/ bayezid's execution a lot, the whole scene was such a wonderful cinematic experience; the music, bayezid's agonizing screams, his sons falling one by one, selim crying because he didn't want it to end up this way, bayezid falling & his screams ceasing, selim's heartbroken face because he was always a soft person & he always loved bayezid;

ahh, what a scene, so much love for it. anyway, that's just my opinion; i think he's hated way more than he deserves, especially in comparison to other characters & he's actually one of my most favourite characters from s4 [but i honestly love all characters w/ their good & bad, mc has many complex characters & i live for it]. what do you think about selim? sorry if you got annoyed at the long ask, i can get really heated when talking about selim [especially in reference to his historical figure], hope you don't mind if❤ [if it is annoying i'll stop it]

(okay, I'll talk strictly about the show, since I don't feel like delving deep into historical waters. There is still stuff we don't know for sure and I do want to keep the line between show and history in my head, except for the similar themes.)

While he isn't particularly my favorite character, I appreciate MC Selim and he is a very interesting subject when it comes to analyzing him. I'm actually amazed with what the show did with him in the span of a season (and something, counting some S02B and S03B moments) - he was one of the most fleshed out characters in S04 and we could get a clear picture as to why he does what he does.

Some people consider his debut to be an insult, for it immediately showed some of his weaknesses, putting him in a bad light right out of the gate. But all I can see in this debut is a showcase of his predicament of the prince no one sees as a capable heir of the throne. It’s as if he sleeps with women and drinks as a coping mechanism he’s delved into, with Mihrimah having to do effort to snap him out of it. The Selim we see in the beginning of S04 is a hopeless person. He doesn’t have dreams and ambitions, it’s as if he’s a already a lost cause and he has no one to truly support him. Even Hürrem wanted to send him to Manisa not because she deemed him as worthy, but to use him as a shield in order to deceive her enemies and protect the actual favorite. That may seem like a clever plan, but in actuality, it failed spectacularly - not only did her enemies not get confused for a second and didn’t attack Selim at all, but she forgot to tell Bayezid why she did it and made Selim confused to the point of demotivation, because none of his brothers were truly happy with this decision and they were all opposing it, directly and indirectly. And while he may not show it that much, because of his more composed and pragmatic nature, Selim is sensitive to the opinions of his brothers and the people around him and their prevailing disapproval may be a part of why he became so different than the rest. It’s like no one wanted to get to know him.

Nurbanu’s entrance in Selim’s life is very cathartic in this aspect, for she actually worked with him and gave him the needed motivation and ambition to fight, awaking sides of him that were dormant for a long time. And yes, I do think that Selim’s pragmatism is something he always had, if the whole arrow incident in S03B where he sabotaged Bayezid’s arrow, which caused him to lose is any indication. 

{I don’t think that the quarrels Selim and Bayezid had when they were little are so much indicators of Selim’s personality as they are foreshadowing of their future conflict. Right, these quarrels are normal for siblings and Mehmet and Mihrimah also fought like that (heck, even little Mehmet and Mustafa had a fight once in S01 and that fight was used as the conflict of the remainder of that one episode), but they weren’t as frequent as the ones of Selim and Bayezid. I don’t know, it’s just the atmosphere of these scenes was different and hinted at something more. It could be because we know the historical events and we could see every tiniest bit of early sibling rivalry between them as build-up, but still, I always felt there just was something else. Like the whole arrow incident I mentioned, a presumably harmless little situation gains a whole other meaning later on. It sets up neatly Süleiman’s opinions of both of them (his reaction to apparent disobedience and the making of a scene by someone he doesn’t expect to, by which I mean Bayezid), Hürrem’s retroactive ignorance of a possible bigger enmity and the roots of the whole conflict. It’s not Selim deciding to sabotage Bayezid’s performance as a last resort, maybe knowing that he surely won’t do better than his brother (doing a pretty typical ,,prank’’ for a little, naughty kid) that is exemplary of his cunning later, it’s his validation and him getting away with it that eventually becomes it, just like how he ends up getting away with stuff in the next season. Selim definetly isn’t the instigator of all the fights, especially because Bayezid, thanks to his more impulsive nature, is much more likely to start a fight in the first place and contrasts to Selim’s overall better composure. Provokations among them were mutual and both were consistently throwing darts at each other, one after another. Their conflict is a very nuanced issue: while people try to play right and wrong, both sides were at fault one way or another. The conflict between them is mostly caused by insensitivity, favoritism and ignorance and the desperation of both to try to prove themselves to their parents and win their support, at the end of the day. Why did they always calm down in front of their mother? Not only because of their joint respect for her, but also because of these same attempts to earn her support. Even Bayezid, who obviously had to be sure of her support, wasn’t completely certain of it after Hurrem turned it on Selim for a while. Selim, on the other hand, obviously never felt her support, it’s like something was missing right from the start. Combine that with their completely opposing personalities and the whole system encouraging competition for the throne and there you have the inevitable ultimate conclusion. That’s why I also love the set-up, the pay-off and the aftermath of Bayezid’s execution. It may be historically inaccurate that Selim, not Süleiman, executed Bayezid, but when you think about it, it was the most logical thing that could’ve happened, ending their conflict with a heart-wrenching bow. I love the scene of the execution itself, too - the action, the dialogue, the direction, the character moments, the themes... I don’t know whether Selim loved Bayezid by that point, per say, after all they went through, but it was clear that he knew that he had to do it, that it couldn’t have ended any other way, but he was broken over it. He was aware that it was, ultimately, a sin, which would continue haunting him. He couldn’t catch a break afterwards, he couldn’t stop. All was solved, but at what cost?}

I love his dynamic with Nurbanu - they balanced each other off so well, their chemistry was amazing, such a power couple. Nurbanu’s biggest contribution is hiding some of his flaws and mobilizing him to fight. Her cold pragmatism ,,grounds’’ Selim’s softer side, she’s there to always remind him of the stakes of the game and to shut off the last ounces of his vulnerabilities after Hurrem died. He sure is influenced by her, but that doesn’t mean that he blindly takes her word for everything - he is always ready to call her out when necessary and assure her that there are lines she shouldn’t cross. Despite of her pleas, he kept having affairs with other women (that is honestly a trend with all the men of the show, but still..), he got mad at her after what happened to Huricihan and most notably, after he found out that she possibly stole his mother’s ring. A part of why their dynamic works so well is precisely this strenght of character and their awesome compatibility. 

I have heard affirmations that Selim doesn’t care about Mustafa, which... simply isn’t true? While they have the least scenes together and Selim is the one that considers him most as a rival and his most dangerous competitor for the throne (which would explain his startled reaction after Musti saved him from the janissary), it’s precisely Mustafa’s death that is the turning point of his character arc. He was upping his game slowly but surely and before then, but he didn’t do much in terms of attacks. Neither Selim, nor Nurbanu once considered attacking Mustafa, the supposed biggest danger to them, which I find respectable and admirable. The bomb with the death drops and then every hope about a fair game is abandoned. Selim gets the realization that being honorable won’t work. The only way to win is bend the system and play dirty. There’s no time for sitting around or looking nice. And even though Nurbanu realized this, too, as well as Selim, Nurbanu was always more inclined to act this way than him and now the righteousness of her methods were only getting confirmed. It was Selim that had to reach this end. Discovering that he is no longer allowed to show any kind of weakness. Every chance that appears on the horizon, he’ll take it. That brings him to his first true dirty plan - the trap he set through the fake Mustafa rebellion.

Speaking of which, the worst deed of Selim’s for me is connected to that rebellion. I know I may be very biased in this regard, since it affects my personal favorite character and isn’t as recalled as others, but I hated when, in Selim and Sokollu’s attempts to wash their hands from the pulled off stunt, Sokollu, his man, told SS that Mahidevran was giving money to the rebellion. Okay, it’s not said outright whether is this directly tied to Selim or it was something Sokollu himself came up with out of desperation or something (though it was hinted that both thought something through in a scene where both were saying that they should come clean out of this all somehow) and it’s not outrightly confirmed whether Mahidevran gave the money or not (I highly doubt she did it; not only because it would destroy her whole S04 arc and she would become, well... MCK Gulbahar, but also because after the messenger told her of her alleged blame in E129, her eyes widened in surprise.), but all it does is be the only explicit case where Selim indeed looks bad, for his proposal to return Mahidevran in the castle doesn’t seem to stem from genuine guilt and remorse, but rather a late and empty attempt to placate his own conscience. Oh, not to mention (for the upteenth time, sorry in advance) how the scene back in E58 where Hurrem tells Mahidevran that her kids will be there taking care for her when she’s alone, which was treated as some big foreshadowing in the show, as well, by both the voice of the S02B narrative and the fandom alike, loses its value even more with that framing, because Selim and Sokollu themselves brought her to this state in the first place!!! Despite it making sense anyway, it’s still such a disservice to Selim as a person both inside and outside of the writing. 

One aspect of Selim’s pragmatism I find most interesting is his ability to turn his enemies into allies, knowing exactly how to amass them and get them on his side, be it through giving them more money and promising them the world. These alliances are all opportunistic in nature and may not be as loyal as those of Mustafa’s or of Mustafa’s people (like Atmaca) with Bayezid, but I think Selim knows this and wants to keep them steady enough for the common goal. As for what kind of a padisah he’ll be.... I believe that state matters would be the least of his concerns, since he was shown to not care so much about them, compared to his other brothers (but then again, the show itself doesn’t put the political capability of the princes at center stage - their personal virtues are always the determining factor of what makes a good padisah and what doesn’t, more of a psychological outlook, if you will.) and he perhaps won’t plan as many campaigns or conquer as many territories, maybe he won’t be that successful at all, but his cunning would bring him advantage in front of his people, he will be at least a bit careful of who he’s choosing and won’t simply lose it in front of everyone, compared to Bayezid’s impulsive temper.

[I love Bayezid as a character, but the shadier aspects of his personality sure tend to be overlooked. While his anger is directed mainly at Selim and Suleiman, it often reaches such extremes to the point it becomes destructive and affects everyone. He doesn’t deserve his execution at all and most of his actions stem from a very sympathetic place, given how SS never truly gave him a chance and he went on the inevitable path, because he, just like Selim, realized that honor won’t work in this war, but took the opposite approach from Mustafa, direct rebellion. And predictably, both approaches didn’t work since Bayezid, too, was taken advantage of. While he didn’t get justice, the lead-up to his execution is a character arc of his and there are many reasons and events linking it all together and showing us why it took place the way it did.]

Selim’s dynamic with Suleiman is proof of how you can be presumably favored, but you have to work to get there. The reasons Suleiman favored him are very telling and sad and we see that he also doesn’t favor him because of any and all capabilities he may have, but because of his self-imposed distorted view of loyalty Selim has to do a lot to preserve, actually. He constantly has to make it so it looks like he’s loyal and obedient and doesn’t work behind his back. He doesn’t get the fullest appreciation from his father, as well, and I certainly feel it impacts him, in a way.

I agree that Mihrimah could be unfair to Selim. They weren’t that close and she had this open preference to Bayezid. Most annoyingly is when, in their confrontation in E139, which highlights even more their parallel sins, Mihrimah doesn’t seem to face that sin of hers when Selim calls her out on it. She has a reason to deeply resent him after what he did to Bayezid, but was offended when he reminded her of the crime she also committed. More solidarity on that front would be a bit better, at least a hint of like recognizing like even for a moment. (but maybe then her scene with Mahidevran later wouldn’t be as impactful? Huh.)

And lastly, about his drinking - Nurbanu tried to restrict him, but it’s true that such habits aren’t easy to give up on, especially knowing how his drinking is a coping mechanism as much as it is something he enjoys. He knows he shouldn’t do it, he’s told he shouldn’t do it, but he can’t help it. He doesn’t drink when he’s planning or scheming, but he keeps on doing it more and more with every problematic action of his. It’s an attempt to supress his otherwise strong conscience to the max, seeing how after his brother’s execution he apparently always took a drink when he was alone at night, fighting an inner conflict with himself. I don’t think there was a way he could stop doing it permanently in the show. It was a part of who he was, unfortunately or not. 

[kylandara]

A very interesting take. I would sadly agree Jon fell from grace, because whether political Jon is true or not, he enable Dany this far to cause the destruction she did. Not that Dany doesn’t get the max blame, but Jon has his share for his own soul. I can almost imagine his PTSD when this is all over. Onwards

——————-

The hysterical reactions to Dany’s dark turn were initially amusing to me because I enjoy suffering, but as this week has gone on, I have grown more disconcerted by 8x05 myself. I am not an emotional person by nature, but each day I am more agitated by the episode rather than less. I didn’t know exactly why it bothered me so much until I realized that I was running through the same stages of grief that Dany stans were.

Both of us lost our heroes.

I had been laughing about Dany stans not seeing where her arc was going when there is ample foreshadowing in books and show as pointed out in articles, metas, posts on Reddit, answers here on Quora, YouTube videos, wherever it is you go for GoT fan content, Dark Dany has been discussed. I thought the proof was so overwhelming that to not see it meant you were in denial.

I did not know I was in denial myself.

I thought Dany stans were watching a different show than the rest of us.

The truth is, I was watching a different show than some of you.

As much as this has frustrated me to no end, I think it has been the greatest success of GoT that D&D have exposed us to ourselves. Or at least, it would be if we pulled ourselves away from our feelings long enough to acknowledge what’s been staring us in the face the whole time.

Dany was not the only hero who fell from grace Sunday. I have been grieving for my own.

Dany burned thousands, tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands of people Sunday, a horrific and inevitable event.

My hero stood by and watched. Worse, my hero knew it was likely to happen and enabled her. Even worse, my hero marched his men South to help her. And still worse than that, when Varys looked him in the eyes and said they knew what was going to happen, Jon refused to even try to stop her.

My hero did not commit the inexcusable evil that Dany did (Yes, EVIL. Yes, INEXCUSABLE.) But my hero did not take a stand. My hero was not heroic. My hero stood by helplessly while children were burned alive. How harshly did I condemn Stannis and the Red Woman for burning Shireen because I loved her? How harshly should I then condemn Dany for the same crime tens of thousands of times over? How harshly did I judge Stannis’ enablers for not stopping him? How harshly must I then judge Jon for not doing something, anything before Dany burned King’s Landing?

Dany stans justified every life she took before 8x05. I justified every life Jon had taken. No, there is no moral equivalence between those, but on Sunday, both committed wrongs that there is no justifying. Again, there is no moral equivalence between Dany’s actions and Jon’s inaction, but I realized my emotions as a Jon fan have been paralleling to a much subtler degree, Dany fans.

They are shrieking about bad writing and OOC behavior, and I have been saying much the same of Jon. But, maybe I was just as deluded as they were, believing what I want rather than paying attention to what I was seeing.

I thought the Battle of Winterfell was bad writing. I didn't think D&D were actually trying to tell us something about Jon, but maybe they were. Yes, his strength is uniting people, but if they are being led by the wrong person, it is meaningless to do so. As seen on Sunday, the wrong leader leads to madness.

The events of 8x05 may be the narrative punishment for Jon not taking up his crown with further spiraling yet to come, or, perhaps it was the rock bottom of him refusing his destiny and what we witnessed is what motivates him to rise up. We might see him well and truly defeated in the finale by what he has participated in, or he might take a stand.

Either way, I don't think this season has been the total destruction of his character I initially thought it was. I think what we’re seeing is writers allowing a hero to suffer the emotional and psychological impact of what he's been through. I wish they would let us experience it with him, I wish they would have give us more that a rare glimpse, but just because I wanted something different doesn't mean they weren't being purposeful.

I resent what they've done because they took my hero from me and gave me a broken man. That's too realistic for me to enjoy, and I wanted to enjoy this season, not suffer through it. I did not want my vision of a victorious hero thwarted for anything. And that’s when it hits me. This is why it hurts. I can either morally compromise myself to pretend like Jon wasn’t wrong, or I have to allow my hero to fall.

Many were upset by Jaime returning to Cersei because we bought into his version of himself as a man escaped from his captor. We thought he had become good. We wanted him to be with Brienne. Yet, how can we objectively say that staying with a new lover is the morally superior choice to trying to save the life of the woman who bore his children? The woman who was pregnant with his child? In falling from grace in the eyes of Braime shippers, Jaime made the right choice.

Jaime is a better person for having died trying to save Cersei than he would have been had he chosen to fulfill his own selfish desire to let her die alone. He wasn’t good enough for Brienne before, he certainly wouldn’t have been if he had let his child die without attempting to save it. In breaking the hearts of shippers and fans around the world, D&D (damn them for making me appreciate them after I decided I didn’t!) turned Jaime into a morally superior character in 8x05 than the Breaker of Chains. A guy who pushed a child from the window attempted to save life while our Khaleesi took it.

Just because we have a version of a character in our head and a path for them to follow, just because we know what we want and are upset when we don’t get it, doesn’t make it better. Jaime chose better for himself than we would have chosen for him. Shame on us for being so morally incompetent that we didn’t recognize it immediately. By leaving her and trying to rescue Cersei, Jaime was closer to deserving Brienne than he ever had been before.

Another surprise in the episode is that The Hound had more moral clarity than Arya. The Hound who murdered for a living became the voice of sanity when he told Arya that if she followed where he led she would only find death. He told her to choose life even when he couldn’t. Arya listened, she chose to put aside vengeance and preserve life rather than take it. And here, we, the audience had been cheering her quest for vengeance, only to then cheer on the new decision, because we are led by our emotions and dumber for it. The Hound had better morals than we did. THE HOUND.

Cersei, that power crazed woman was just another victim. The bells rang and Dany burned them all anyway. And all the Dany stans who are finding ways to excuse, rationalize, or simply crying out “character assassination” are just in denial. Your hero failed the test of basic humanity because she has always wanted to. Her first instinct has consistently been to burn and destroy, she’s just always happened to have someone holding her back before.

That’s not bad writing. That’s making your audience question what we’ve been accepting and reject what characters say about themselves and think critically about what we have witnessed with our own eyes. It’s mental torture, but it’s the right kind of subversive because there are threads we can find that were always going to lead us here.

Some of us had been condemning Cersei and cheering on a woman who was essentially doing the same things. We just didn’t recognize it because we didn’t want to. Because Dany was framed as a hero, and we all know Cersei is a villain, we didn’t stop and think about what Dany has been doing for years and ask if it was right.

Jon didn’t know as much about Dany as we did. Maybe he hadn’t heard of what Dany did before coming to Westeros. Perhaps he didn’t fully comprehend what happened during the loot train attack, but he saw her talking about wanting to burn the Red Keep in s7, he saw what dragons were capable of beyond the Wall and during the Battle for Winterfell, he heard his queen threaten Sansa’s life for the horrible crime of asking what they were going to feed the armies. And yet, he refused to ever question her.

I don’t know that he had a good alternative, but Varys chose to defy the queen and die rather than take part in her plans. Jon refused to help him. Was Jon being a fool or was he being cunning? I still don’t know, but either way, he stood by while an innocent man burned. Either way, he did nothing. Nothing is never the best you can do. Except, nothing is what humans do all the time. I was prepared for Jon to lie, to be sneaky, to outsmart and use people. I was not prepared for that. I wanted clean margins around my hero, and they didn't give them to me.

People wanted Jaime to kill Cersei because we all know she’s evil, never mind the fact that Jaime has done his fair amount of evil, never mind that she was carrying his child. We don’t mind evil, we just don’t want it to upset us. In our heads, murdering Cersei was fine, but hurting Brienne wasn’t. We accept the grey, the dishonorable, the bad, but only when it’s in line with what we want.

I wanted Jon to be darker this season than the Jon we’ve had before, but I wanted it to be in line with the hero’s journey. I wanted it to be justifiable. I didn’t want it to be in the form of a mistake. I didn’t want it to be him misjudging the character of his queen. I didn’t want it to be at the cost of the lives of countless children.

I was willing for Jon to stray from the hero’s pretty, pretty path just enough to make it interesting, not enough for it to matter. This was a detour I did not expect, that I can’t just ignore, and that is a brilliant move by the writers. Oh geez, I’ve just complimented D&D again. Someone save me!

Jon, no matter what he does next, is stained in blood. He can’t be the hero I wanted him to be, there is no erasing this mistake. I didn't want him to fall prey to a cult of personality, I didn't want him to be stupid. I still don't believe he’s a total idiot, but while I watched 8x05 I took notes and when I reviewed them, I sounded like two different people. One screaming at Jon for being a moron, the other entirely sympathetic because he didn't have a choice. Both views were guided by my emotions. Whether he fell in love and was in denial or if Pol Jon is true and he believed he had no choice, Jon was complicit.

Either because he allowed love to blind him, or desperation to take over, while I still have hope for him, I can't deny what I saw. I hated seeing Jon as he is now: a man made less than what he is. He isn’t the hero I had fabricated in my head. I didn’t even know I had done that, but I had. This isn’t what I wanted. It’s not how the story is supposed to go.

But it is how this story went.

I wanted the fairytale. I wanted Jon to be untouched by what Dany did. I wanted him to remain innocent. I didn’t want him to be weak. I didn’t want him to fall. I wanted him to be above this.

But on Sunday our heroes fell.

What happens when they fall?

We can deny, excuse, insist its solely bad writing, claim it’s OOC, or we can accept that we are simply upset because it isn’t what we wanted. The second step is to acknowledge that this is what it means to have morally grey characters. This is the realism in fantasy GoT has always been touted for, we just never had to suffer so much for it all at once. We never had to face the reality that our heroes aren’t pure goodness, our villains aren’t pure evil with such high stakes before. It’s one thing for Jon to miscalculate and be murdered by his men, it’s another for him to not prevent a city of people from burning alive.

The “grey character” idea only works if you still recognize good and evil. We can’t twist right and wrong to make sure our heroes are always in the clear. Grey characters does not mean we should be morally colorblind. It means that the good and bad still exist, but that both reside in each character and in each of us. We have to choose how to act, and in certain situations, we will wander closer to one side than the other. It’s saying, let’s make heroes falter and villains sympathetic and force ourselves to see ourselves in what we hate, and what we hate within ourselves.

We had seen the good side of Dany intermingled with the bad, but the bad emerged in an unprecedented way on Sunday, and suddenly now we know that how we had masked it was always about protecting our own feelings, not about understanding who that character was at her core. Some in the audience have found strength in Dany, and to see her fall tore at parts of themselves that she had impacted.

Jon is still lighter grey than Dany, but on Sunday, I saw a streak of something repugnant to me, something that is the natural fallout of Jon’s behavior all season, but I had been ignoring it. Before this season aired, I expected victorious Jon. Now I think, even if Jon survives, I don't know how he'll live.

It is shocking to me how much it hurts to let go of my delusions and think, this is it. This is what all those words I’ve been spouting off about complex characters mean, and now I have to accept it. I have to “Look the truth in the face” as Sansa says, and as silly as it is since it is a tv show, it genuinely hurts! To a certain as yet to be quantified amount, Tyrion and Jon refused to do this. To a greater extent, Dany stans refused to.

I refused to.

So, what do we do when our heroes fall?

We must choose to be heroic ourselves. We acknowledge the truth. No more complaints or excuses. Our heroes fell last Sunday because this is that story.

I mentioned in a previous answer that I had a general feeling of defeat this season, and I think this is why. Jon has been slipping off the pedestal, and I have been trying to keep him up there anyway. Whether Jon was a “Northern Fool” or unsuccessful “Political Jon,” he isn’t the man I wanted him to be. D&D emphatically knocked him off his hero perch Sunday. Silly to be so attached to keeping him there, but I was. Emotionally, I was depending on my hero to make it all better. Maybe the point is, there is no hero who can?

Dany climbed too high and fell too far. She isn’t coming back from this. In my eyes, Jon hasn’t. D&D just made him fallible. He made a grave error and thousands upon thousands of people paid for it. I thought he would rise up a hero and prevent this, but there was nothing in this season to indicate that he could or would, and when the time came, he didn’t. I didn’t expect to see consequences for his “My Queen” routine, heroes don’t usually suffer those, but it is right that Jon see where that leads. It is good that we see it.

I think that’s what I’ve been mourning. I wanted hero Jon, not human Jon. Seeing Jon stand there with Drogon over his shoulder while Varys burned was very upsetting. I couldn’t reconcile it with who I thought Jon was, but that’s because I was thinking in the traditional sense of hero. In other books and shows, that wouldn’t happen. But, Jon made a series of choices that led to his presence and inability to do anything at Sunday night’s slaughter. Based on his decisions this season, Jon’s fate of standing there while people were murdered was just as inevitable as Dany’s fate of being the one to burn them.

It is much harder on the audience to endure this kind of story, but GoT has never tried to be easy. I didn’t want this, but it’s okay to not always get what we want. It’s okay for the writers to crack my rose-colored glasses.

Regardless of my misconceptions, in spite of his mistakes, Jon is still Jon. I still have faith in him. He’s just not impervious to failure, and somehow, I had forgotten that. And, for the first time, I genuinely do not know what the cost of this will be. That’s why I am so disturbed. I don’t want Jon to suffer, but his inaction may require narrative punishment. Maybe what we witnessed is the only catalyst that would force him to do what he needs to do, but it may be his mental and emotional undoing.

I don’t want that. I am uneasy after this episode because for the first time, I am genuinely wondering if I was wrong all along. Maybe this story isn’t building up to Jon defeating all odds, maybe the odds defeat him. So, instead of insisting that the writers are wrong, I am wondering what story it is they are telling. Is this a story about what it takes to make a man who can survive the game? Is it about a man who refused to play the game and will therefore be punished? Is it about a man who tried to play the game and learns that there is no winning without losing? Is the point that there is no winning at all?

I don’t know anymore.

So, in this, I have sympathy for the other side of the fandom that has broken hearts this week. And it isn’t entirely because D&D made bad choices, wrote this season poorly, should have had a longer season. I am upset because I am not liking the story they are telling me. I am not sure that that is anyone’s problem but my own for not recognizing what this was from the beginning. I’m still hopeful, I don’t know what we will see in the finale, but I have to accept that my hero fell on Sunday, and I don’t know if he will get back up. He could, but it is possible that he won’t