#and trying to get people to recognize how wq helped wwx & jc

[rynne]

I wonder why WQ didn't join the war and stage a coup (I think is the right term). Since according to Chapter 60 (EXR), "there were many cases that people wanted her to take over". She was favored by WRH and one of the faces of the sect (besides the Wen brothers) even though she is a distant relative. She must've thought at some point that what the main family branch is doing is Wrong and I'm sure there are others who thought so as well. She could've gathered those forces in secret and lead them and then offer their services, whether medical or manpower, to the leaders of the SSC. She was willing to commit treason along with WN by helping the Jiangs and ensuring the sect's survival and so WWX (and hopefully JC lol) could've put in a good word if they do decide to join the war. Also, according to Chapter 60 again, "Wen Qing was one of the Wen Sect's people whose way of doing things was actually normal", which proves that they're not like WRH and his supporters and could be trusted.

Poor Wen Qing was stuck between a rock and a hard place, I think.

She's as highly ranked as Wen Chao, one of WRH's own sons. She has a good reputation both inside and outside the sect. It's possible that she could have staged a coup, potentially averting or mitigating the war.

But something else we know about WQ is that she's a very loyal person. She's loyal to her brother, doing her best to protect him throughout their lives, even when he straight up commits treason by saving WWX and JC. She's loyal to her family, doing everything she can to find and help them after the SSC. She's loyal to WWX and ends up sacrificing her life for him.

And for better or for worse, she is loyal to WRH. He's her first cousin once removed, iirc, and the patriarch of her family, and her sect leader. It's not a small thing to kill him or fight against him openly, no matter what he's doing. She may be more loyal to WN, which is why she helps him with WWX and JC, but that doesn't mean she feels no loyalty to WRH.

Her decisions also fit into MDZS's themes about the tension between individual and sect. Several times in the story, characters are pulled between their sects and their individual priorities.

WQ is a doctor and a moral woman. She does not support starting or fighting in a war, and she tries to stay out of it. Despite these priorities, she ultimately sides with her sect by not doing more to stop WRH or help the SSC. Her choice not to stand up to WRH meant that people like NMJ could call her complicit and decide that no sympathy should be shown for her branch, which eventually contributed to the deaths of most of her family.

LWJ is in love with WWX and does understand the morality at least behind his choices with the Wen remnants (he doesn't disagree when WWX says he would do the same thing in WWX's shoes), even if he doesn't know whether WWX was right generally. He still sides with his sect by not doing more to help WWX. He ends up losing WWX and grieving for 13 years until he gets another chance to prioritize WWX first and his sect second. Only then does he get his happy ending.

Mianmian is a moral woman. She stands up for WWX after he saves the Wen remnants, even when her sect doesn't support her, and ends up leaving the sects altogether. She prioritizes her morality over her sect and is actually one of the few characters to get a straight-up happy ending.

WWX is a moral man. When he is forced to choose between his sect and saving the Wen remnants, he chooses the Wens. He never regrets this choice and the narrative continually validates it.

Thematically, even sympathetic characters like WQ and LWJ who prioritize their sects over the moral option are punished for that, while the characters who prioritize their individual morality over their sect are ultimately rewarded. The thing is, for this theme to hit home, there do have to be characters who make the wrong choice. WQ happens to be one of them.

It's uncertain what practical things she could have done, in-universe. Part of the reason the SSC was so bad was because pretty much the whole cultivation world was terrified of WRH and the Wen sect, to the point where the Wens could destroy two great sects before any real push-back started. Maybe people would have preferred WQ in charge, but would they have actually followed her if it meant defying WRH and the Wen sect? We don't know. We can't assume that any attempt to resist WRH would have been successful, and WQ would have had to balance that when making her decision.

The thing is, even though she had power within the sect and respect both inside and outside it, I don't think it would have been enough to really change anything about the war. The only thing it might have changed was how people viewed her after the war.

And I think it is also important that she didn't do more to stop WRH. Yes, we know she wasn't entirely on WRH's side, and she did help save WWX and JC's lives as evidence of this. But that also...doesn't necessarily matter that much. She and her branch of the family still would not have deserved how they were treated after the war.

I mean. I'm not saying it's not important that the Wen remnants included civilians who obviously did not fight in the war. That does make the Jins' treatment of them worse. But the ExR translation (chapter 74) does say, "On Burial Mound, heading fifty-or-so of the Wen Sect's cultivators..." When WN wakes up, the narration points out that a dozen Wen "cultivators" are standing with WQ.

So it's possible that the Wen remnants did, in fact, include cultivators. Maybe even people who fought in the war on the Wen side.

They still did not deserve their treatment, by the cultivation world in general and the Jins in particular. Maybe WQ could have done more to stop WRH and she enabled him by not doing anything. I don't really think it's worth debating the degree of WQ's complicity, because part of the point is that it doesn't matter how complicit she was or was not, or how responsible any of them were, the Wen remnants didn't deserve what they got. They are people first.

[letteredlettered]

Top 5 characters from The Untamed and why?

Wei Wuxian - the trauma of his childhood and time in the burial mounds deeply affects him. I always like an angsty, painful past! But he chooses to deal with it by making jokes and acting careless. I always love repression! But he’s also pretty much the best at everything--I often love competency, but this could also come across as really cliche. However, because of the way WWX downplays it--downplays it in particular for his brother--I’m really interested in the idea that WWX’s competency is often a part of his repression. My favorite thing about WWX is the way he’ll give up everything to do what he thinks is right, but I also love how stripping away everything he has also strips his repression. He becomes arrogant and dangerous, and I love that juxtaposed against his previous joking carelessness. Back to the repression, I also love how he has trouble recognizing that people love him.

Wen Qing - here is also someone I love for the sake of competency, and also someone who will give up everything to do what she thinks is right. I love how this creates a conflict for her--she’ll also do anything to help someone she loves, but in the end puts herself and her brother at risk to do the right thing. One of my favorite things about her was the chemistry and understanding between her and WWX. Here are two people who are so clever and capable they leave most people behind, and both are under-recognized by those around them. Both are willing to downplay their genius and skill to protect people they love, and both are willing to make terrible sacrifices. I feel like WQ and WWX are two sides of the same coin, in a way. I also think there’s some repression here in the way she seems to almost delete herself in her willingness to live for her brother. Also, trauma. I almost stopped watching the series when she died.

Lan Wangji - I’m tempted to say, “Repression. Enough said.” However, my favorite thing about Lan Wangji is that he 1) makes a mistake, and 2) learns from it. I love that he doesn’t do what he thinks is right, when he doesn’t stand by WWX. He has doubts; he is uncertain; he doesn’t know what’s right. I identify with that more than I do anything else in the show. But he is willing to undergo torture, pain, loneliness, and ostracism only just to learn what he thinks is right, and then he decides for himself. Also there’s a healthy amount of trauma as well.

Jiang Cheng - JC is a familiar archetype--friend of the protagonist who also stands in the protagonist’s shadow. He feels both love and jealousy; sometimes one rules, sometimes the other. Ron Weasley, Xander Harris, and Sokka of the Water Tribe are all examples of this archetype. I’m fond of saying Sokka is the best Ron there is. Sokka is broad comic relief at first, a “normal” person who feels some jealousy at his lack of power or status, but grows over time into someone who can accept himself and offer meaningful contributions. That is not what happens with JC, but I think the reason JC works is we’re not meant to accept him as Beloved Member of the Team. We’re not meant to think, “You’re just as special and the hero could never have done it without you!” JC is never there to prop up the Hero Team, and that’s what I love about him. He’s there to love WWX intensely, to envy WWX intensely, to feel intensely betrayed by WWX. He’s there like a member of your family, who you love and will always love but isn’t always good to you, even when you feel like you give them everything. And yet, you can see that they are trying; you can see how you have hurt them. Sometimes you feel you are simply too different to ever really get along. I feel that feeling is so familiar and true that this character really stands out to me as someone so unique. I have to say I don’t love the actor. I feel he is a bit broad.

Jiang Yanli - It was hard to choose the fifth, because siblings are my favorite thing about this show. Therefore, Lan Xichen and Wen Ning are almost as high on my list. In the end, I chose Yanli because the interactions between WWX/JC/JYL are the heart of the show. I do feel that JYL is written as a little too perfect, but I am actually a lot more into her romance with Jin Zixuan more than most people seem to be. I love how she is demure but gets fierce whenever her family is involved. I love how protective she is of WWX, but how understanding she is of JC. I identify with her feelings of being caught in the middle and wanting them to get along.

[olderthannetfic]

Escapade Vid - The Untamed

I could say this was my attempt at meta on an underappreciated character and that's why I wanted to vid Wen Ning…

Nah, I just think he's hot.

Wen Ning has this adorable babyface and big eyes. Just my type. And then he got a goth makeover and became a creepy zombie, increasing his hotness by ten thousand times. The Living Dead was everything I wanted except for dubcon possession porn, and it both irritates and cracks me up to see how many people find it OOC and badly made. I agree the colors are an abomination though--but more on that later.

I like Wen Ning the best because 1. He's hot and 2. He's one of the most competent characters and compromises his morals the least. Mianmian might be one up on him given how her story turns out, but in a whole series of craven idiots, I like the suicidally moral characters, especially when they're competent.

And also JC. Because I like his face. (What? I never said my Untamed feels were deep.)

I wanted to make this vid last year, right after Escapade. I spent forever finding a song, and I'm glad I did it then because it was a nightmare. I can find love songs easily, but I don't really care about WN/WWX, nor would most love songs fit that. It's clearly one-sided, but WN is also clearly totally happy to follow him around forever. Happy love songs are out. Pining angst is out.

WN is also motivated by high ideals more than specific family feelings. WQ wants to protect her family. WN wants to repay his debts. WN is a shy doofus on the surface when we first see him, and he acts flustered around most of the older characters, but this is deceptive. I feel like the most revealing scene is when he pops up at Lotus Pier, ready to grab JC and take on his entire clan. In what universe was this a good idea? What is he even doing there? Why did it actually work???

I wanted a song that encapsulated WN's quiet stubbornness. The trouble is that like 99% of popular music is either about romance or about being a confident badass, and most of the confident badass music is "Fuck you, ex boyfriend, I'm stronger now". I did not want an ex boyfriend song. A bunch of other songs are macho, flexing dudes talking about how they'll win the sports competition. Obviously, that was out. There are a very few songs like Try Everything, but they're awfully perky for covering Wen Ning's entire story, including him getting, you know, gruesomely murdered.

I honestly can't remember how I found the song I picked. I was probably listening to Happy Hanukkah on endless repeat and saw it in the Youtube sidebar. (Look, it's a great song for all times of year. Shut up.) Matisyahu has many amazing songs that build and move in ways ideal for vids.

I then sat on this source/song combo for a year because, well, it sure was a year. But when we got close to Escapade, I realized I wanted to finish it for the con.

Clip choices:

I'm not going to include the full lyrics on their own since they're in English and on every lyrics site. Instead, I'm putting the relevant bits between my explanations of what I chose and why. A lot of it came together quickly. I knew I wanted to include cute WN moments, like him being bullied by kids, and they wouldn't fit in the main narrative, so I had to put them in the intro.

Feel like the world don't love you They only wanna push you away Some days people don't see you You feel like you're in the way

I had a lot of trouble with 'push you away' since, generally speaking, no one does push him away. However, this is a vid from Wen Ning's own perspective, so it felt like an acceptable match to use the part where Wen Qing tries to leave him behind as they go on a hunt. She's objectively correct to do so given what happens, but Wen Ning is clearly upset that she tried. He doesn't want to be protected, especially at the cost of other people's safety.

Today you feel as if everyone hates Pointing their fingers, looking at your mistakes You do good, but they want great No matter what you give they still wanna take

I was very clear from early on that I wanted to use 'mistakes' for what Wen Ning is actually upset about: ruining Jin Ling's life. Of course he feels super guilty about what he did, despite it not being his fault, but the specific fallout Wen Ning is going to care about is a kid's feelings, not the political drama. That gave me the idea for what to do with 'good' and 'great'. More than most characters in the series, WN is not impressed by the power structure or reputations--scared, yes, but not impressed. WN likes bringing people food, at little things that are quietly good, and their society does not value that. (Cf. everything about Jiang Yanli's betrothal before Jin Zixuan catches feelings.)

'No matter what you give' I used for a shot that is probably not going to read as anything in a convention vidshow. He's bruised up, so I was hoping it would read properly visually. The actual context of the shot is WN having been thrown in the dungeon for being a traitor to the Wen. And yet, when the Wen are defeated, does he get a pardon? Nope, ignominious death. It really didn't matter what he did: these factions are all thoroughly corrupt and the entire system is garbage. It's all power-hungry assholes and sanctimonious prisses ripe for manipulation. All that mattered was that he was a Wen, and the Wens were either on top or being exterminated.

Give your love and they throw it back You give your heart they go on attack When there's nothing left for you, Only thing that you can do, say

The next part is WWX being an ungrateful little bitch. He's understandably stressed, but it still cracks me up that he's all up in WN's face and WN is literally only there to help him. WN might feel an obligation, but WWX sure isn't earning it here.

'When there's nothing left' I wasn't sure about. WN hitting rock bottom is arguably when he gets killed or maybe when they're in the burial mounds, but that didn't work with my structure. I chose to put a montage here of all the times that WQ tells him to stay safe by ditching WWX. I sympathize with WQ, but as WN comments in one of these scenes, he's following their own family code that she taught him. WQ cares so much about protecting WN (and the rest of their little part of the clan, but let's be real, it's mostly about WN) that she's willing to collude with a mass murderer just to keep him safe. Maybe it's only because he's a younger sibling, but WN seems to see things a lot more clearly. I laugh every time he's like "Uh huh, uh huh" as she lectures, and then the next scene is him running off to do something dangerous again.

Today, today live like you wanna, Let yesterday burn and throw it in a fire, in a fire, in a fire, Fight like a warrior, Today, today live like you wanna, Let yesterday burn and throw it in a fire, in a fire, in a fire, Live like a warrior

For this round of the chorus, WN is burning his Wen clan membership in a fire, and the heroic thing is running away, living to fight another day. WN has no ego, nor would ego be helpful here.

Buuuut, equally, being an actual warrior means hurting people, and while he was literally mind controlled into murder, that still couldn't have happened if he hadn't been already involved in violence and fighting. Violence you regret is also part of this life, and so is accepting responsibility for your actions. (Sure, he's very literally not responsible here, but WN doesn't know that at the time and doesn't feel that even later.)

There's some things you should let go, They're only gonna pull you down, Just like weight on your shoulder They are only gonna make you drown

I swear The Untamed has the best casting for a variety of face types. I recognized everybody from the moment they appeared… Except for Su She. Whom I forgot entirely and couldn't recognize at all. Doh.

It wasn't till I was clipping the whole series for this vid that I realized that the reason Wen Ning gets possessed here is that he's the only one to notice Su She's plight and go to his aid right away. I think on first viewing, I read it as him just getting possessed before he could get in the air, but that's not what's happening at all. His dumb ass stayed behind to try to help someone. Seriously, fuck Su She. They live in a grotesquely shitty power structure, but WN responds in admirable ways, while Su She just whines that he's not on top.

We all swing high, we all swing low, We all got secrets people don't know We all got dreams we can't let go, We wanna be brave, don't be afraid

WN's secret is that he gets possessed so easily and why. WQ is refusing to tell WWX in this scene, but he has figured out something is up and gives her a talisman for WN, which shows up later in the plot to great emotional effect--though not in this vid, alas.

The butterfly reveal was one of the first things on my timeline as I recall. I have Many Feelings. Also, this is me, so yes, I totally ship them. >:D

WN and WQ showing up to accept responsibility is kind of a dumbass move, but it's definitely brave. I enjoy how WN just keeps barrelling through the plot in a way that should mean he's the cute woobie who dies early on to prove the world is bad… and that instead leads to him being one of the strongest fighters, making it through the series, and finding A-Yuan again. (Though, okay, he did that first thing also. Heh.)

I ended on Jin Ling because I was so struck on rewatch at how the juniors first meet Wen Ning.

Today, today live like you wanna, Let yesterday burn and throw it in a fire, in a fire, in a fire, Fight like a warrior, Today, today live like you wanna, Let yesterday burn and throw it in a fire, in a fire, in a fire, Live like a warrior

I dimly recalled this fight, but it wasn't till I was clipping that I realized just how much focus each of them gets and how WN is literally strangling them and such. I just remembered him fighting people, not who. It's hilarious how quickly after this (in their timeline) we have doofus woobie WN being cute and them being like "He's my murder zombie! ♥"

For this chorus, I focused on that change. WN is rescuing them. "Yesterday" is their scared faces. Here, being a "warrior" is apologizing to JL. And maybe WN doesn't really owe an apology, but JL does deserve one. Almost no one in the series seems to give a shit about how JL is feeling.

And then my favorite scene with my two faves! WN is finally telling JC what he has probably wanted to for ages. WN is a wuss when it comes to himself, but he gets righteously pissed when someone else is being mistreated. The yesterday he's letting burn here is his promise to keep quiet… along with viciously burning down every bit of self perception and hubris JC ever had. Ouch!

Your heart is too heavy from things you carry a long time, Been up you been down, tired and you don't know why, But you're never gonna go back, you only live one life Let go, let go, let go, let go, let go, let go,

Bless the sequel movie for literally being entirely about Wen Ning's internal struggle. The way he breaks free of the bad guy's hold is by accepting the past and letting go of his guilt over things he can't change.

Today, today live like you wanna, Let yesterday burn and throw it in a fire, in a fire, in a fire, Fight like a warrior,

He's just so hot in this movie! This first chorus is him coming out of the hallucination, having beaten his self doubt and then beating on the villain.

Today, today live like you wanna, Let yesterday burn and throw it in a fire, in a fire, in a fire, Live like a warrior

Okay, in actual canon, JL mostly joined them because he was competing with LSZ like the bratty little asshole he is, but I wanted to highlight how JL got over himself enough to join the other juniors on team WN. Also, WN defends both him and LSZ in this scene in ways he couldn't back then.

Today, today live like you wanna, Let yesterday burn and throw it in a fire, in a fire, in a fire, Fight like a warrior,

This I wasn't planning on at all. As I was clipping the whole series, I was thinking that WN's possessed footage here wouldn't be narratively useful since he went and got taken over again, but when I rewatched for visually impressive stuff to use interstitially, I realized that--holy shit--he's defending Jin Ling in this scene. And he succeeds. I included both a shot of Jin Zixuan, which everyone caught in the vidshow, and a shot that nobody mentioned: Wen Ning's bloody fist after ripping JZX heart out to go with Wen Ning's bloody hand on the sword in the present as he struggles to keep it from Jin Ling. Here, fighting like a warrior means keeping the sword off of JL, even if WN can't defeat the spirit or resolve the entire situation himself.

ALSO I HAVE MANY FEELS ABOUT JC JUMPING IN FRONT OF JL.

Today, today live like you wanna, Let yesterday burn and throw it in a fire, in a fire, in a fire, Live like a warrior

Sometimes, WN is not that sweet. He traps this dude in a hell of his own making instead of letting him kill himself because Wen Ning can be a vindictive little bitch. And then he strides off into the matte painting sunset.

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥

Other vidding notes:

I totally wanted to do something with Chinese characters, but there wasn't really space, and after much dictionary-searching and asking, it's clear that Chinese does not use morality metaphors involving a compass pointing true north. But that effort was not wasted since I needed a good font for my other vid.

Vidding The Living Dead turned out to be a pain. I had completely forgotten it was in another aspect ratio. The shots look much more beautiful before one crops them. That said, none of them are that beautiful because the entire film has this atrocious green color filter over it. It's like they're all wading through mud at all times. Ughhhhh. I spent so long trying to fix the color on that final scene to be at least a little pretty for my vid.

Still, the film had exactly the emotional tone I wanted. It very much skewers the fanon that WN is entirely the bashful wimp he appears to be on the surface when we first see him. It makes overt the change that we see over the series. It's also fundamentally different because it's a situation where WN is the senior person and in charge of someone. We've seen him babysit a small child, and we've seen him around the juniors with lots of people of his generation also there, but we've basically never seen him out from under WQ and WWX's thumbs. It's only natural that he's acting more authoritative here. His smackdown of the villain is very much in line with how he treats JC during the golden core reveal. WN is not a forgiving guy when he thinks someone has been selfish and awful.

Throughout this vid, there are shittons of color, speed, and motion effects. I don't normally use a lot, but it turned out to be a lot of fun this time. I should find another project to use effects on.

The vid:

Available on AO3.

[crossdressingdeath]

I just legit don't understand people who say that WWX giving his golden core was selfish or done only for himself. It's an argument that can only work by relying on the element of surprise created by the sheer implausibility of it, and I don't understand how it even managed to get hold in the fandom in the first place because just what mysterious advantages WWX gained from doing this? JC not dying? JC being able to be sect leader? JC not being sad? None of it is to WWX’s direct benefit,1/6

especially compared to what he lost to make it happen or that WWX was the best candidate to be the next leader if JC found himself unable to lead the sect. Plus in the situation they were in back then, even WWX knowing about the possibility of a core transfer and doing nothing at all and just watching JC letting himself die could not be considered selfish, tragic at most, because even when you love someone, you are not obligated to sacrifice your everything for them, especially when the2/6

chances of it working were only 50% at best as guestimated by WQ. So the argument that going far and beyond his duty in that situation is what makes WWX selfish is just so, so plain stupid. The spin on this argument that WWX is selfish because he didn’t think about JC’s feelings is even stupider because WWX did nothing but think about JC’s feelings? That’s actually the whole reason he gave him his core? He had already risked his life (and WN and WQ’s) to save JC from prison, and nothing was3/6

preventing JC from going on with his life other than his feelings about the situation. Of course, JC was right to be horrified and depressed by the terrible thing that just happened to him! But it doesn’t change the fact that the only reason WWX gave his core to JC was to spare his feelings; JC’s life was in danger after the golden core loss only because JC felt that his life wasn’t worth living anymore, and WWX would never have gone through with it if JC showed even the smallest sign that4/6

he could pull through. Like the whole reason that WWX didn’t speak about his sacrifice is selflessness because he didn’t want JC to feel indebted to him or JC to feel like his achievements weren’t his (WWX very well knew that JC’s first or even tenth thought wouldn’t be about how giving his golden core would impact WWX; it’s not even me gratuitously JC-hating, it’s shown in the narrative by the contrast between JC and LWJ’s reactions, LWJ who was also “lied to” and paid a terrible price5/6

his punishment, but whose first and only worry was if WWX suffered terribly during the operation or not.) We are supposed to see that JC's accusations that WWX just wanted to play the hero as absurd and in line with JC's tendency to needing a scapegoat for his own shortcomings because WWX never tried to leverage the debt to his own or people under his protection’s gain when he could very well have and went to his death with his secret intact.6/6

I mean if you think about it, the whole reason the golden core reveal happened is because a murdered teenager already resurrected once and thought dead again was freed on a accident from the prison he was left to rot in by another dead man, resurrected as a by-product of yet another man looking to avenge his brother’s death, and then the truth came out only because JC was attacking them. If not this astonishing series of coincidences, JC would never have known whose GC he has. 7/6

My response to the “WWX was just being selfish” argument is always “Okay, what did he gain from it?” It can’t be considered selfish if he got nothing out of it, especially given everything he lost doing it. You could maybe argue that he was being selfish in ignoring JC’s wishes, but JC only wanted to die because he didn’t have a core, so WWX giving him his solves that. No one would ever have known about the transfer if a situation hadn’t arisen where WN, against WWX’s wishes, told JC about it, so WWX didn’t want to play hero. WWX didn’t reveal it to try to push JC into helping him and the Wen remnants, so he didn’t want it as a bargaining chip. What did he get out of this transfer? I’ve yet to see a single “WWX was being selfish” argument that actually explains why it was selfish beyond “Oh, he just wanted to play hero”, which as I just said doesn’t make any fucking sense because if he wanted to be the hero he would’ve revealed it.

I am convinced that when MXTX wrote the golden core transfer reveal we were supposed to recognize that JC was being ridiculous and looking for a scapegoat so that he wouldn’t have to face his own failures. Everything in that scene screams to me that JC is clearly in the wrong and that MXTX deliberately wrote it that way. I mean, he spends the entire conversation about in it the temple jumping back and forth between “how dare you upstage me” and “this is the least you owe my family”! I... genuinely have no idea how so much of the fanbase became convinced of something that’s so obviously untrue.