#and they're all a haunting reminder to how their respective characters failed!

[red-heart-sunglasses]

I love characters named Ben whose full name is not Benjamin

[requiesticat]

That's true. It's a valid way of looking at this. I like seeing other characterizations being explored, so it's always a shame when people only go with one and fit characters like Manfred von Karma into this mold where they're horrible abusive monsters with no redeeming qualities. There's so much to interpret that isn't outright shown in the games, including his relationships with coworkers and what happens after he ends up in jail (for instance, what his reaction to getting the death penalty would be). Although the scene from Turnabout Goodbyes where Phoenix and Maya enter the evidence room, and he tazes Maya, was screwed up. But I feel like Manfred is capable of valuing others above perfection, which is what he ultimately strives for when it comes to prosecuting. He thinks that if he isn't flawless in every sense of the word, it counts as weakness, and he chooses to avoid that at all times which mostly causes damage in the long run, never asking anyone for help. That's probably why he's so incapable of letting go of anger as well as the grudges he holds. Manfred is haunted by memories, mostly involving DL-6, and unwittingly makes that worse by acting on impulse. He's not satisfied that other people are living easier lives and drags them down to his level, which includes his pupils, unfortunately. But I do think he wants to avoid those same mistakes, trying to do that with his children by acting as a strict mentor, toughening them up so they can be prepared for the future.

Maybe he didn't have the best parents himself, and that carried over. While he fails in the long run and ruins what respect Miles developed for him, Franziska still admires her father to the very end, wanting to carry on Manfred's legacy independently. And they'll still have good memories, even if there are mostly bad ones.

Unrelated, but there's a movie I watched with a similar villainous protagonist who has self-centered ideals, There Will Be Blood.

Daniel Plainview is an oil baron who isolates himself from everyone after striking it rich. The relationship he has with his son is pretty close to what Manfred and Edgeworth have; Daniel uses H.W. to look professional during meetings and play the part of a caring father even though he's relatively indifferent about it.

Daniel also develops an extreme grudge against Eli, a pastor who humilates him in front of a congregation and wants to encroach on Daniel's property, which is more or less how Manfred regards Gregory Edgeworth (though for different reasons). Both of these antagonists end up killing their worst enemy, losing everything in the process. But Daniel starts to hate how he's become and feels guilt for it, so he doesn't really seem to view himself as being perfect in comparison. He also remorsefully states that he abandoned his child after being goaded into it by Eli, during the humilation scene. So he does actually care about H.W., but it's sort of justified that his son cuts him off later in the film as a successful adult.

The whole thing reminded me a lot of Turnabout Goodbyes, though since TWBB came out in 2007 I doubt this was intended as a direct reference.

What you said here checks out though. It's not OOC to depict Manfred as being "normal", having average conversations about things, or just enjoying himself. Like the scene from the anime when he takes the kids out to a diner and they get breakfast. So I'm not sure why some fans are so intent to prove otherwise; the evidence is right there. And von Karma definitely deserves another vacation from work. Or therapy. Dude doesn't know how to have fun, lol

(I know there's a manga panel which has him being eager to show someone pictures of Miles and Franziska, maybe his granddaughter too- though I can't find it rn)

i am as usual having Von Karma family thoughts. Manfred loves his daughter and takes her out for pancakes and brags about her to his coworkers and read her silly stories as a kid but when faced with directing his attention towards her or the perfect revenge that is Miles Edgeworth, he chooses the latter. His whole Thing is that his selfishness and pettiness subsumes every other aspect of his life. He let DL6 poison and consume him until it rotted away all his other relationships. It's about the deterioration over time! It's about loving things and hurting them anyway! Franziska grows up but he's stuck in the past and he can never be what she needs him to be as long as he refuses to let it go!! It's not that Manfred wants to hurt Franziska, it's not that he hates her, it's just that he hates the Edgeworths more than he will ever love her!!