#and then denethor dies and he's got an elf-raised king and then actual elves on his doorstep

[anghraine]

This is the longer version of my other post about young Denethor, and mostly some disorganized thoughts/headcanons about Elvish/Númenórean mental powers (please do not quote Osanwe-kenta at me, I'm familiar with it and don't care):

I think it's interesting, wrt the "powers of mind" seen in LOTR and discussed in UT/the Silm, that having a strong rapport or good relationship seems important. It's not that both sides of the communication would need to have the same abilities—I don't think Númenórean horses were themselves telepathic! But telepathically summoning them seems to have only been a widespread thing when there was a strong tie between master and horse. The good relationship, even between masters and horses, appears to ease the exertion of sharing thoughts or summoning animals or whatever.

I also think it's pretty clear that some people are just better at it than others. There's no doubt in my mind that Galadriel is better at that kind of thing than Elrond or Celeborn, but they can all share thoughts together when they want to (aided by their emotional closeness).

I think Galadriel also seems a lot readier to use it than most people are—I mean, Men can lie to the sons of Fëanor without being suspected. It seems a bit odd if the Fëanorians could question people the way Galadriel does the Fellowship and just ... didn't. But they, and most Elves in general, seem much less in the habit of perceiving other people's thoughts or reading their hearts accurately than Galadriel.

Sometimes I wonder if that sort of thing would be considered kind of rude among Elves. It can be resisted, for sure (see: Denethor), but the point where you're trying to reach out to someone telepathically and they're trying to eject you has become direct conflict. And there is effort involved in attempting intrusion or mental domination of some kind, which seems like it would raise the stakes of any reluctant encounter.

Gandalf says that Denethor was "too great" to be telepathically dominated, not that nobody could be, and UT suggests that Saruman was fundamentally dominated by Sauron amidst his own plots where Denethor never came to support Sauron at all. Yet Denethor's rejection was not an automatic victory based on opposition to Sauron but something that took an enormous degree of exertion that aged him by decades. Aragorn is also strained and haggard after contesting Sauron over the palantír, a contest in which he's particularly bolstered by his rights as heir of Elendil.

On the flip side, Gollum is strained by contesting Faramir's reading of him. The light goes out of his eyes, and he's at best partially successful—Faramir notes that Gollum's mind is unusually dark and closed to him, yet he comes away knowing that Gollum is a murderer and full of malice, and "saw clearly in his mind" that Gollum is hiding something about Cirith Ungol. Gollum seems to experience some sort of pain when he tries to lie to Faramir about it (something the traitorous Men of the Silm had no difficulty doing to Elves), which it's difficult to envision Faramir inflicting on purpose.

So I have this vague headcanon that, among both Elves and Númenóreans, this is not actually a casual thing to do except when you're very close to someone and they're clearly cool with it. Galadriel does it more because of a) her personality and b) her exceptional facility with it, perhaps unequaled by any other child of Ilúvatar.

Meanwhile among the Dúnedain, I imagine that a similar sort of unspoken protocol has long been in place, and would be reinforced among the Northern Dúnedain through contact with the Elves. This is even more the case for Aragorn, raised among the Elves himself. He definitely can reach out to at least some degree; per above, he gets through the conflict with Sauron via the palantír with his mind and integrity intact, and is the victor of a mental challenge with the Mouth of Sauron, who in the book is a Númenórean sorcerer.

But he doesn't seem to do it much—maybe because of his upbringing, maybe because it's very obtrusive and adversarial if you're trying to be at all subtle, maybe because he's good at it but not good enough to rely on it except where it's absolutely necessary. His only failure in this regard was in concealing his true identity from Denethor, who seems to have realized who "Thorongil" was back in their younger years because he could look "further and deeper" than other people. We don't know if Aragorn even knew that Denethor had identified him iirc—it doesn't seem that either wanted direct conflict, so it's hard to say how that went.

But one idea I have is that the ability has become quite rare among Númenóreans and there wasn't anyone to actually teach Denethor how it works or any norms around it or anything. I imagine that people can kind of roll with it with Faramir because they're so used to weird uncanny stuff from Denethor. After all, they just sort of assume that Denethor is mentally tangling with Sauron and it's aging him, but something he can do. Faramir can command animals to obey his will and all the soldiers are just like "yeah, that's a thing he does" with zero explanation, but under Denethor's shadow ... sure, why not.

But Denethor is nearly ninety at this point and has been Steward for decades. What about when Denethor was a child? How long did it take to realize he wasn't like other people of his time? Exactly how much was remembered, and how strange did he seem back then?

I do think it was a relief that Boromir turned out so normal, and would be spared the isolation and strains of Denethor's existence. But it was very complicated with Faramir, who despite everything, probably owes a lot of what he knows to Denethor—but it would only have been so much.

[alexandra-scribbles]

I don't have an issue with Galadriel's decision to stay in Menegroth either, girl put herself first and honestly good for her. And most of the Finweans wanted to leave Valinor cause they had ambitions and such, even when Arafinwe turned back after the whole Alqualonde mess, Finrod and Galadriel decided to go on because they wanted to have their own people to rule over (I don't remember the exact passage from the silm tbh). Fighting Morgoth in Beleriand was a necessity not a calling, like, I get the Feanorians had their own reasons to fight Morgoth but for all other elves in Beleriand it was fight Morgoth or die or be enslaved, the siege of Angband was raised for the continent's protection, because do remember that if the Noldor hadn't gone to Beleriand then only (possibly) Thingol and his people would have survived because they were the only ones who had the power (via Melian) to withstand orcs and whatever it was that Morgoth and Sauron were cooking up in Angband.

Also the only Noldor ever allowed into Doriath were Galadriel and her brothers, no one else, out of a host of people that could have used Doriath's protection. The people of Denethor (the elf who died rigth before the Noldor arrived on Beleriand) they were saved by Feanorians, even Cirdan and his people were saved by the coming of the Feanorians into the East, while all that was happening, Thingol and the Sindar were perfectly holed up in Doriath.

So Galadriel goes into Doriath with her brothers and never comes out... until Doriath is no longer protected and she goes out to find a protected place again.

You mentioned Turgon and the Gondorians, and Turgon cannot be compared to Galadriel because Turgon actually took a bunch of Noldor and took them somewhere safe, he was responsible for his people's safety, and Idril did the same when Gondor fell, she led the survivors to the Havens, she took charge of her people as was her duty to do so.

Marrying a kingsman of Thingol would have been problematic to the Noldor because the Noldor didn't like Thingol... at all (and he didn't like them back so they were cool). So not only has a princess of their own abandoned them, but she married someone related to the biggest asshole in the land and has done nothing to help the Noldor through her marriage... at all.

When you mention Elrond as being well respected amongst the remaining Noldor, do remember that both Elrond and Elros were raised as Noldors after the third kingslaying, sure they were raised by Maglor and Maedhros and that must've raised a few eyebrows, but they were still raised Noldor, Elrond was the last elf of Nolofinwe's line other than Gil-Galad (going with the whole Fingon is Gil's dad here) and Elrond was part of Gil-Galad's court, a full Noldori court.

Galadriel was as proud and stubborn as any of her family, of that there is no doubt, but during the first age, unlike the rest of her family, she did nothing for her people (the Noldor). The other Exile leaders did.

Now the whole Banned or Decided not to debate, opens up to so many different scenarios cause sure it could have been her pride that prevented her from leaving... it could have been guilt also... which is why I love that scene of hers and Frodo and the ring in which she seems to forgive herself and realize that she can actually go home and be fine with it.

And the whole Eregion thing, yes, she and Celeborn were politically active and the minute something happened they left once again to find safety amongst King Amdir's people... and when Amroth died or got lost looking for Nimrodel, she and Celeborn took over as overlords of those people and she finally got her wish of having a host of people to lord over (like the rest of the fam).

Lothlorien's population was Sindar/Silvan elves and the only Noldor living there was Galadriel. All the other Noldor were either with Gil or Elrond and some even stayed with Cirdan in the havens. So I think it is safe to say that the Noldor didn't really vibe with Galadriel or her husband.

Thoughts on Galadriel.

To be honest, I do not think the Noldor who lived in Beleriand and ME after the war liked Galadriel much. (I love Galadriel and loved what Cate Blanchett as her in the movies) But like thinking about the Noldor of Beleriand, excluding those who lived in Gondolin and Nargothrond before both kingdoms fell, Galadriel basically abandoned the Noldor the moment she set foot in Beleriand. She went to Menegroth and stayed there under the protection of Melian for the most part of the first age, all while the rest of the Noldor, her brothers included, were out in the frontlines of war.

Even during the long peace, most of the Noldor in Beleriand had to see orcs attacks and such, their homes were not 100% safe, they didn't have the luxury of being protected by a Maia. The Valar had more or less abandoned the people of Beleriand (not just the Noldor) to their fates. So while the people who lived in Barad Eithel, Dorthonion, Ladros, Himlad, who were basically the ones holding the siege, all those people who died during the fire. Who had to move further south. Those elves could see Fingon, Fingolfin, Angrod, Aegnor, and the Feanorians willing to protect their people and die for them. (and I bet Aredhel would have been there too if she hadn't been kidnapped by Eol but that's another thing). But like Galadriel once she stepped in Doriath she never left until she felt considerably threatened and when she did, she and Celeborn moved east beyond the blue mountains. She wasn't even there when the war of wrath really broke out. Like right now I don't really remember if she managed to see the host of valinor and when the war was done and she did come back to the coast... she was denied passage.

Galadriel couldn't go back to Valinor by the end of the first age because I remember reading that she was denied passage, because she was not humble. The Galadriel we see in LOtR is an older and wiser Galadriel that had perhaps realized that most of her actions in the first age were born of hypocrisy (Hipocrisy was a big theme in the first age but that's also another story).

So what I want to get at is, Galadriel was not named queen of the Noldor and was not included in Noldori Politics at all during the second age (looking at you Amazon), because I don't think the Noldor considered one of them anymore. I think that the moment she decided to marry a sinda and remain in menegroth with the rest of Thingol's people she was 'set aside' by the Noldor as a whole. So yeah, those are my thoughts regarding Galadriel, if anyone else wants to add anything else, I'll be more than happy to read your thoughts <3