#and the trying to seduce Saera too…

[ferretteeth]

Alicent Baby I promise I can treat you better than he ever can. Don’t text him back. Baby please

[green-aeggs-and-spam]

A Defense of Viserra Targaryen

I just realized I've never actually collected these thoughts in one place, so it's time for me to do so.

This is the main quote from F&B used as character evidence for Viserra:

No squire was ever going to win Viserra, Queen Alysanne knew; not her heart, and certainly not her maidenhead. She was far too sly a child to go down the same path as her sister Saera. "She has no interest in kissing games, nor boys," the queen told Jaehaerys. "She plays with them as she used to play with her puppies, but she would no more lie with one than with a dog. She aims much higher, our Viserra. I have seen the way she preens and prances around Baelon. That is the husband she desires, and not for love of him. She wants to be the queen."

EXCEPT PRINCE AEMON IS STILL ALIVE AND HEALTHY. BAELON IS NOT THE HEIR. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO INDICATION FOR VISERRA THAT MARRYING BAELON WOULD MAKE HER THE QUEEN. ALYSANNE WOULD HAVE NO REASON TO BELIEVE THIS.

So, what gives?

Maybe this is a situation of "George forgot." He's infamously bad with numbers, after all. Maybe he got his timelines mixed up, and didn't realize that Prince Aemon outlives Viserra by five years and Baelon isn't the heir at the time of her death.

Except Fire & Blood is deliberately written as an in-universe history, and we're supposed to treat it as such, with the understanding that some of what Archmaester Gyldayn says is biased or not 100% accurate. This quote is supposedly from Alysanne to Jaehaerys. Who would have heard this? Who would have written it down? Combine that with the straight up factually incorrect information it's based upon, and this has the makings of an apocryphal quote from a bad source. The factual error undercuts the validity of this entire section, and I don't think it can be blindly accepted as proof of Viserra's character.

So, onto the Baelon incident.

(note: the entire existence of the Baelon Incident can also be called into question, given that Gyldayn begins that section with "if court gossip can be believed." We are not all maesters at the Citadel with access to his bibliography and primary sources, though, so I'll leave that alone for now and choose to treat it as fact.)

Here are our facts: Viserra Targaryen is 15 years old. Her parents have arranged a marriage to an old Northern Lord who has been widowed 4 times already. They have refused to break the betrothal. Viserra has a drinking problem. While drunk (and apparently unsupervised) she manages to sneak into Baelon's bed, naked, in an attempt to "seduce" him.

What's the more likely motive here? That she's a sly manipulative ambitious girl who's just so determined to be queen that she'll seduce poor widowed Baelon? Or that she's drunk and desperate and scared and trying to get her brother to rescue her the same way Jaehaerys once rescued Alysanne?

I rest my case.

[horizon-verizon]

“Quick” Note on Alysanne and her Children *EDITED*

Growing up and raising children more and more within the confines of the castle and royal court, where the customs would be observed and practiced more, Alysanne also grew to mentally and habitually adopt ideas and behaviors more than before Jaehaerys took the throne back.

Because Alysanne did seem to have terrible relationships with her daughters while expressing dread with a few’s willfulness (the post I’m responding to): 

Viserra: Alysanne not liking that she actively tried to pursue Baelon to become Queen, and Viserra not wanting the marriage with Manderly but being betrothed forcefully anyway without so much as a real conversation

her & Jaehaerys being responsible for Daella’s wanting to marry a too-old man over an Old-Gods worshipper like Royce Blackwood who was closer in age -- religious/extra-patriarchal/Faith-based parenting from the more submissive Alyssa Velaryon (*EDIT*we also have to note that ALysanne didn’t want to marry Daella off so young and later would rail against Jaehaerys for forcing i anyway, which he did by declaring Daella must be married or be forced into a nun’s life)

Maegelle turning out better and the “lucky” one, but still heavily influenced into not really seeing the rift between Alysanne and Jaehaerys as indicative of something greater than just disagreement

Saera, her whole life being compared to the dead and “unmanageable” Aerea and ending up (at first) in danger in the sex trade of Essos

Alyssa being allowed to be pregnant too young or not allowed to take breaks to heal/build up strength and Alysanne thinking more for Baelon than her, even with her mentioning how Alyssa followed Baelon around -- again, pattern of Targ women/wives of Targs giving birth to many children too frequently (Alyssa V, Alysanne, Alyssa T!)

Gael not being allowed to really grow on her own away from Alysanne because Alysanne sought her as an emotional crutch, thus Gael not having enough inner strength, self esteem, or perception to survive after her lover seduces and leaves her

And the fact that Jaehaerys thought to allow their daughters to have any sort of political/military education or training as Visenya and Rhaenys surely did, which I suspect Alysanne doesn't fight harder for because she already doesn't have much political power compared to Visenya and Rhaenys.

Alysanne constantly compares Saera to Aerea, as if it were a bad thing. Implying that Saera was too "willful" and hard to manage...which admittedly shows that Alysanne still has this bit of prejudice (and internalized misogyny) towards women and girls who display noncompliance and nonquietness despite her castigating Rhaena for disparaging the absent Aerea and her taking out Balerion and running away...Alysanne saying that Aerea was "just a child" to Rhaena's "what kind of monster" she brought to life who would take the dragon who killed her father (Aegon the Uncrowned) of all the dragons she could have claimed. A frustrated rage of a person who didn’t get to really raise her own daughters for the sake of their survival but never bonded with them properly afterward.

All because she seemed to know that Jaehaerys would not accommodate such a personality or expressiveness for power from his daughters. By how he treats Rhaena, knowing that she has some claim by being the eldest, he purposefully made her display her submission to him before he have her Dragonstone to live in. Even though she already supported his coming into power without asking for anything else. All of which shows Jaehaerys' anxiety of female power and leadership, even that coming from his daughters.

Then there is the fact she didn’t do anything more to make Jaehaerys reconsider not killing Braxton Beesbury right in front of their daughter even after she escaped the first time...because her escaping shouldn’t preclude trying to save her from emotional trauma like that and Saera really didn’t deserve being isolated and pusnished as she was for sleeping with different men at once. We just brushed right past her hurting Tom turnip, her bullying Daella like these were nothing and focused on her sleeping with other boys for attention and feelings of control...sure. Again, because Jaehaerys -- being the final authority AND having a stubborn streak when it came to male exclusive power -- she concedes to get some lesser form of power for herself and that of her kids -- what happens with Daella. So what happens to their kids are both her and J's faults, but it seems from the sociopolitical power that J has over his relatives, his ability to use it against them, and his willingness to do so for his own benefit, that it is mostly J's fault.

He has made the environment where everything hinged on his determination of whether or not the new "problem" would endanger his image and authority. And Alysanne was the responder, the victim, as well as the perpetuator.

It looks like Alysanne also inherited troubles with daughters that she rebuked and blamed Rhaena for. More than Rhaena does Aerea, though Alysanne abjects Saera into a monstrous feminine figure all throughout her childhood (while Rhaena's treatment of Aerea is arguably more sympathetic since Rhaena's *trauma* at Mageor's hands and her separation from her daughter, her daughter growing apart from her in that separation. A separation where they both lived conscious lives apart and long enough for them to be near strangers to each other).

How did Alysanne go from defending Aerea to her mother for claiming a dragon and running away to calling Saera Aerea-like with anxiety...and then had her own broken relationship with said daughter end with her also trying to run away on dragonback?! (Rhetorical)

**EDIT** BTW, I still hold Jaehaerys mostly accountable for what happens to their daughters as he uses his final authority and insisted on his way being the way to override and block Alysanne trying to get Daella married off much later, the heir questions and shunting his female relatives, the psychological terror towards Saera and ordering alysanne/making her feel guilty or hopeless to go after and retrieve Saera by foisitng all the blame onto her...meanwhile he is the one to order all that happens to this girl and refused to see/hear her out properly ever. 

I think Alysanne, while accountable by being an adult/parent/Queen, was also responding to this and had the sort of power only granted by Jaehaerys that is better defined as “influence” than power. Like the complicated woman that she is, she also kept with the enduring Andalized Targ/Seven- sense of misogyny that had her look askance at girls/women attempting to get power w/o the male lead’s leave MAINLY inspired by her guilt towards Rhaena coming into conflict with her young-girl belief that she was “born” to be Jaehaerys’ queen (as she said to the women who her mother sent to try and break her and Jae up in F&B). 

So Alysanne was a conflicted/complicated woman: 

trying to amass more power for herself and women by their own right

while wanting to get there through the male lead or/and sometimes giving in entirely due to her own socialization and running from remorse

And after the years with Jaehaerys, the more she gave in when it came to the personal AND fought harder when she saw and felt female power reduced -> a back and forth of trying to claim back power without confronting or going into a real confrontation with Jaehaerys or herself because of how intimate the relations and the history is.

She bound herself to him too well, until the end.

[darkestspring]

Yandere husband Jaehaerys 1 Targaryen. This man is really giving strong yandere vibrations. Besides, I don't think it's possible to get rid of this man. Do you think yandere Jaehaerys would have been a better father to his children born to his precious wife (for example Viserra and Saera). Could his sister Alysanne, seduce him?

like with all targaryens, you can't really get rid of them when they set their eyes on you, you will become their spouse, whether you want it or not. i think he wouldn't be as bad of a parent. i think he'd try to match your energy as a parent but i think he'd be jealous of the children you have together, he wants to attention to always be on him. as much as he wants to keep having children, he's jealous of them. they get to be with you without restraint.

on the topic of alysanne, i guess it would depend whether she holds affection for you or not. it would also depend on whether she holds romantic affection for jaehaerys too. i don't think she would unless its like specific conditions?

[nepobabyeurydice]

"She has no interest in kissing games, nor boys. She plays with them as she used to play with her puppies, but she would no more lie with one than with a dog. She aims much higher, our Viserra. I have seen the way she preens and prances around Baelon. That is the husband she desires, and not for love of him. She wants to be the queen."

Baelon is Older Than Viserra. Viserra is younger. Viserra has a drinking problem, Viserra should not be unsupervised after the shit show that was Saera. This is the bigggest issue I have with the Long Reign because Viserra is YOUNGER than even Daella! This flat out shouldn’t be possible if Alysanne was any bit of the attentive and caring mother we are told she is!

Do I love the standard Alysanne set as Queen of Westeros? Yeah. Do I think she’s genuinely a horrid mom whose understanding of her children need significant work also yeah!

We’re told by the narrative that Alysanne is just perfect! Look at her out there doing activism in a soft way but the moment you look at her relationship with her children it becomes alarming because she’s out here treating Baelon, a grown man, like he’s going to be entrapped by his little sister’s bare body…

Is it because you set aside one child for him and now you’re worried he’s going to take initiative and do a repeat? Where is all the Rhaenys deserves the throne energy in that excerpt? “She’s Baelon’s” my ass.

“That is the husband she desires,”

Her choices are desperately trying to seduce her widowed brother and being sent to wed an old man, a marriage YOU picked. A marriage your husband sanctioned yes, Jaehaerys is never absolved of wrongdoing, but in Viserra’s case he’s not very involved. Saera’s case is VERY different from this one though, although you end up with the same result, a lost daughter.

I don’t even want to get started with Gael and her shit show of ‘getting pregnant, losing the baby, drowning yourself, and having Alysanne and Jaehaerys cover it up like they’re on CSI’ but honestly that’s also very sus on Alysanne’s behalf too because she’s also specifically reported to be Gael’s primary caretaker. Gael who is also reported to have been mentally ill…

I don’t hate her as a Queen, but as a mother, I’d definitely pull a Maegelle and hide in a sept away from all that, but then again Maegelle wasn’t even able to avoid her completely either since she was forced to play mediator in her parents marital arguments.

Side tangent:

I just— George breaks the logic of his own story, that Jon thought from GOT while he’s being bitter that he can only drink when he’s seated at the lower tables. If that’s Jon, a bastard son of what’s ’only’ a Lord Paramount. Why is Viserra, a princess who’s reportedly beautiful, whose sister has just pulled the biggest stunt of the dynasty, and is very unhappy with her betrothal not being watched or cared for or even reprimanded? If Alysanne is as an involved and caring parent why isn’t she acting?

I know I’m not qualified to talk about Saera but anything about Viserra, Alysanne and Gael, and suddenly I’m encyclopedic.

I don’t get it. Why did Alysanne marry Daella and Viserra to old men who already had heirs? They were princesses in their own right. Surely they could’ve done better than dead-in-childbirth-at-18 and tried-to-seduce-her-own-brother-to-escape-four-times-widower-only-to end-up-dead. Then she allows her 11 year old granddaughter Aemma to marry an 18 year old Viserys only to suffer the same fate as her mother. Good Queen sure, but good mother?

[sweetestpopcorn]

Do you think it's possible that Alysanne treated Viserra like she did because she's angry on behalf of Alyssa? Viserra did want to marry Baelon and so maybe Alysanne didn't like that specifically because Baelon was married to Alyssa? It still wasn't okay but I guess I just want to find a reason for why Alysanne seemed to hate Viserra of all her children.

That also reminds me, why Theomore Manderly or whatever his name? He's some twice or thrice a widower, right? An old man with already some heirs of his own and not even a lord paramount. What advantage would marrying him give them? At least, Daella married a lord paramount and one whom she chose (not to mention Rhaenyra was their granddaughter, so not complaining). But Viserra did not even choose that man. Is it because Alysanne wanted her daughter to marry into the North? If that's the case why not a Stark? Didn't Alaric have two sons?

What is it with parents giving off/wanting to give off their most beautiful children into shitty marriages? First Alysanne with Viserra and then Viserys with Rhaenyra. At least, it's one thing that proves you're Alysanne's grandson after all, Viserys.

Hi there Anon 😊

While I think there could be some merit to your argument, of Alysanne just being very angry because she saw Viserra’s actions as going against her siblings in a kind of weird way (?) I honestly don’t give George that amount of credit given all the incongruences we have in Fire and Blood. As I have said a lot of times the story is plot driven - just trying to get from A to B - and the characters suffer a LOT from it. On this regard, Alysanne was no exception.

Besides Viserra we also have Aemma as an example since Alysanne was outraged at Daella (Aemma’s mother) being a mom at 18, but apparently perfectly fine with Aemma being impregnated at 13. Which makes no sense.

And ignoring Alysanne wanting to “punish” Viserra for causing some type of harm to her siblings by trying to seduce Baelon (and by being overly ambitious), I would still maintain there’s no logical explanation for her to be all about love (allows Aemon to marry Jocelyn instead of Alyssa his eldest sister; allows Alyssa to marry Baelon saying they belonged together; giving Daella her pick of whatever dude she wanted and most were dudes from MAJOR great houses; allowing Vaegon to follow his passion instead of pushing a marriage on him) and then not extending to Viserra the same choice she gave to her siblings. Not to mention being willing to forgive Saera and not extending the same curtesy to Viserra for being “too ambitious” or something.

So at the end of the day I call Alysanne’s behaviour towards Viserra bad writing and characterisation on George’s part. There was no logical way for her to be pushing Theodore Manderly, who yes was a super old widower and had kids and grandkids, on her young daughter. Fifteen by the way. Apparently again a perfectly good age to marry unless you are Daella Targaryen.

Like let me just pull out Fire and Blood for a sec, and let’s just compare Alysanne’s behaviour in relation to Daella and to Viserra.

“Lord Arryn was the oldest of the three contenders, however; at six-and-thirty, he was twenty years older than the princess, and a father besides, with four children left him by his first wife. Short and balding, with a kettle belly, Arryn was not the man most maids dream of, Queen Alysanne admitted, “but he is the sort you asked for, a kind and gentle man, and he says he has loved our little girl for years. I know he will protect her.” To the astonishment of every woman at court, save mayhaps the queen, Princess Daella chose Lord Rodrik to be her husband.” (Fire and Blood, pg. 309)

“In 86 AC, Queen Alysanne announced the betrothal of her daughter Viserra, fifteen years of age, to Theomore Manderly, the fierce old Lord of White Harbor. (...) His lordship had outlived four wives, however, and whilst still a doughty fighter, he had grown very stout, which did little to recommend him to Princess Viserra.(...) If the princess was intent on marrying her brother, the queen was equally determined to prevent it. Her answer was Lord Manderly and White Harbor. “Theomore is a good man,” Alysanne told her daughter, “a wise man, with a kind heart and a good head on his shoulders. his people love him.” The princess was not persuaded.” (Fire and Blood, pgs. 326 and 327)

While I don’t recall we getting an age for Theomore, we do know that in 55 AC one of his daughters was a companion to Alysanne. His betrothal to Viserra was in 86 AC, so y’all are welcome to do the math and see how freaking old this dude was at this point. Certainly we are talking about a MUCH greater age difference than the one between Daella and Rodrik Arryn. 

So in sum, I blame George most of all. This attitude was not congruent with everything else we see from Alysanne.

Walserys was different. Quoting a previous Anon “this bitch had been hibernating his whole life” but when he decided on something and someone went against him, you had like “Dance of the Dragons Walserys Version” and he remembered he had once been the dude who had claimed Balerion and went like:

On most things though, he was a doormat :) and he just wanted people to get along. 

All the best to you, Anon :D