#and the fact that his and mike's talk at the end of s3 happens in the exact same spot he said that to his mom

[chirpsythismorning]

[thethingsweneversaid]

Am I crazy or did I just crack the mystery of the monologue scene????

Why did they lose against Vecna in season 4? What were they missing?

They lost the race against time. Time was obviously significant this season (The grandfather clock, Vecna's obsession with time, the UD being frozen in time). The time was simply up, they were too late. Who’s to blame? Mike Wheeler. 

Okay, let me explain, haha.

Throughout the whole series we all know Mike being late, or almost late to things is recurring. Every season in fact. S1: Mike’s campaign was too long, and he tried to get the party to stay past their curfew. S2: Mike was trying to get in contact with El on his walkie, almost making him late to the arcade. S3: Mike was almost late to the cinema because he was with El, making them almost miss the beginning of the movie. S4: Mike was reading El’s letter, almost making him and Nancy late for school... He begins every season with a race against time. Also worth noting that El was the reason for him being late in s2, s3 and s4. Also ALSO worth noting that in season 1, Mike begs his parents to let the party stay longer. The campaign took two weeks to plan! They need to finish it. He has no rush. While in all the other seasons (when he was late because of El), we get a "Shit! Shit! I'm going to be late"-version of Mike. He's stressed out and rushed. Not sure where I'm going with this last point, but I'm sure it means something and that it'll make sense in s5. The point is, Mike gets distracted by El.

Now for the monologue. This time, it's not Mike getting distracted by El. It's him distracting El.

Jason was obviously a key reason for them being too late as well. The scenes switch between Lucas fighting him and Mike’s monologue, comparing the two. Jason destroys Max’s walkman, destroying her connection to Lucas and the world outside her mind. Mike tries to get El to wake up by lifting her out of the freezer, taking off her glasses, Will shoves the radio away. They’re trying to get her out of Max’s mind and into the real world again. But El doesn't want to wake up. She is ready to fight for Max. The boys obviously tried to help because who knows what would’ve happened if they didn’t? They thought El was dying. When Mike begins his monologue, El looked away from Max and up “towards Mike’s voice”. She was listening to him now. Getting distracted. El continuously tells people throughout the series to be quiet when going into her “trance”. People talking distracts her, and she needs to concentrate. Mike also reminds the audience of the importance of the sensory deprivation tank. "It helps her calm down and focus on her powers". With Mike removing all the aids that help her concentrate (the glasses, the tank, the radio), while also talking to her, we can only assume that now, El isn’t only fighting to save Max, but also to stay in Max’s mind, further slowing her down.

At the end of the monologue, Mike reminds her she has to fight, and El’s eyes snap back to Max. That’s when she breaks loose from the vines. Whether you think El believes what Mike is saying and utilizes his loving words for strength or not, it’s still a distraction. I’ve seen a lot of people say that they felt impatient while watching this scene. Like «get on with it! Vecna is literally killing Max RIGHT NOW». And we're probably right to feel impatient! That's probably what the writers were going for! The audience was supposed to feel like that. El lost valuable time because of it. Mike is making them late this time too.

Will is also kinda to blame in this (I don't blame any of them, it's just an unfortunate set of events and they all did what they thought was best, but you get what I mean) Because in a way, Mike is distracted too. Distracted from the truth. That happened when Will lied to him in the van, disguising his own feelings for Mike, using El as a distraction for Mike to focus on instead. Will's guiding Mike towards a lie. He convinced Mike that El was feeling a certain way, which she WAS NOT. (For example: "You make her feel like she’s not a mistake at all, like she’s better for being different." cue Mike and El’s fight where she accuses him of thinking she’s a monster too, like everyone else.) (This also contrasts Will singling Mike out as the only person that doesn't treat him differently in season 2 in that scene with Will and Jonathan.) Mike doesn’t make El feel the way Will portrayed it in the van, though Mike is led to believe that she does.

Therefore, making the feelings that was the foundation for the monologue a lie. Both to Mike and El. It isn’t authentic. This doesn't apply to them. which brings me to my next point. 

 "A paladin swears to uphold justice and righteousness, to stand with the good things of the world against the encroaching darkness, and to hunt the forces of evil wherever they lurk. Different paladins focus on various aspects of the cause of righteousness (honesty=righteousness and honor for Mike), but all are bound by the oaths (promises, “friends don’t lie”) that grant them power to do their sacred work. Oaths, honor, and rigid rules define a paladin's everyday actions. Breaking these oaths (by lying) means their deity will revoke their powers."

This is why his monologue didn’t work. It was a lie (And Mike knowingly or unknowingly portrayed that lie to El). Without his honesty, Mike the paladin loses his powers. He couldn’t save them. 

Will’s selfless attempt to save their relationship sadly turned out to be counter-productive in every way, hindering all of them from seeing the truth. Will was also the one that told Mike not to stop, when in reality, maybe stopping and letting El be was exactly what he should've done. He's the heart. But he's Will's heart. That's what Will would've wanted Mike to do, seeing as Mike has saved him/snapped him out of his episodes multiple times by speaking to him: Of course Will thinks that's the right thing to do! Mike's doing what Will would've needed, not El.

It adds a new layer to El being upset with Mike in the cabin by the end of s4, because it isn't as simple as "she knows Mike is lying" or "She's just upset because they lost". She's upset because once again Mike doesn't trust that she knows her own limits (This being a huge reason for conflict in s3 between El/Mike/Max.) Mike worries because he cares of course, but it isn't what El needs ("Mike, I need you to trust me.") When Mike tries to help her, she fails. But she "redeems herself" when she's making her own decision, without outside influences other than love for her friends. She pushes her limits further than ever before, bringing Max back to life, trusting herself and her powers, without Mike knowing.

Mike is the heart, yes. The problem was - the heart was in the wrong place. They all got it wrong this time. They got confused and misunderstood each other. That’s why they lost. In the next season, I believe Mike and El are going to realize that they’ve both been focusing on the wrong things, and that is how they’re going to win. Still using love as their weapon - just a different kind of love that’s not distracting them from what they really need, not slowing them down. El coming fully into her own, reaching her full potential and using her powers the way she knows best, with the support of her loved ones making her stronger - not under the influence of Mike trying to stop her out of worry. And Mike’s heart being in the right place. With Will. 

I've seen other people talk about this next part, but I'm adding it in because it further proves the point.

Another indication that proves to me that at least SOME of the monologue is a blatant lie is the Romeo and Juliet parallel, with the word "Montague" spelled out behind Mike, and the "love at first sight"-refrence. "I knew right then and there, in that moment, that I loved you." That. is. a. lie. and there's just no going around it. Romeo and Juliet's romance wasn't actually real love, just infatuation. The Duffers also said they don't believe in love at first sight. For them to use that trope wouldn't just be wierd and cliché, but also contradicts everything we were shown in season 1. Are we just supposed to believe that Mike loved her, decpite them showing us otherwise?

More on the Romeo and Juliet thing in this post.

Conclusion: The Duffers are geniuses I’m never getting over this show.

[faelorelia]

Will loves Mike. Will wants Mike. Will needs Mike. And he always will. ❤️

This is what "Stranger Things" has repeatedly shown us for all four seasons. The show has emphasized how hopelessly devoted Will is to Mike. Yet, many believe Will will get over Mike and meet someone else. So why would giving Will a random boyfriend in S5 make no sense? Let’s review the facts:

Will has known Mike and been best friends with him since they were 5. We know how they met and how important that moment was for both of them. (This memory even played an important role in S2.)

Since S1, "Stranger Things" has focused on the special connection between Will and Mike. Their bond has always been different from other friendships in the show, and it’s been an important plotline throughout the entire series.

Will has loved Mike for some time prior to S4, even though it became obvious only then. We saw him glancing at Mike when a girl asked him to a dance, hoping his friend would stop him. Will wanted to dance with Mike. When puberty hit, Will became even more sure of his feelings.

Would "Stranger Things" make Will say he isn’t going to fall in love, sad and hopeless, if he weren’t already aware of his love for Mike? Would they show us the rain fight and his breakdown afterward if it were just a passing crush? Would Will promise Mike not to “join another party” if he just wanted to move on? Would Will spend his time in Lenora expressing his love for Mike in a painting? Would he spend all of S4 pining for Mike? Would they focus on how deeply Will loves him, cares about his happiness, and needs him if he were just meant to get a random boy in the next season?

Will has felt lost without Mike. Sometimes, Will feels like a mistake, but then he remembers that it’s Mike who he loves, and Mike makes him feel like he’s not a mistake at all – like he’s better for being different. Will is scared of losing Mike and will always need him.

Will’s entire arc in S4 would make no sense if they planned for him to get over Mike and get a new love interest. His arc in S4 wasn’t just about being gay – it was about him loving Mike specifically. And we saw just how much Will loves Mike. He basically sacrificed his own feelings just to make the boy he loves happy because he believes Mike will never love him back. Was it all just for Mike to reject him and for Will to get an out-of-the-blue love interest in S5? This is "Stranger Things" we’re talking about – a show that gives people hope and shows how love can save the day.

They have said the van scene will pay off, they have teased a happy ending for Will, and they have been giddy talking about Byler on multiple occasions – would they have done all of that if Byler weren’t going to happen? And what could be Will’s happy ending if not getting the boy he’s loved for years?

Let’s also remember that Will’s love life isn’t the only focus of the show. There’s a literal apocalypse in Hawkins, with everyone in danger, monsters in the streets, and stakes higher than ever. There are multiple main characters who all deserve development and conclusion. They have many plotlines to complete, particularly the main supernatural one – will they really have time to introduce a new series-regular character in the middle of everything just to give Will a random love interest? Especially when Will is confirmed to be central to the supernatural plot and likely won’t have much time to look for another gay guy in a conservative town merging with another dimension. Even Robin, introduced in S3, got a love interest before S5. How can giving Will, one of the most important characters in "Stranger Things," a rushed love story with a random boy be a good tribute to his character after he literally said he’ll always need Mike?

Mike is it for Will. He is the ONE! Even if Will gets a new, temporary love interest, he won’t stop loving the boy he’s loved his entire life. Because that’s who Will is – loyal, devoted, and wholeheartedly in love with his best friend, as shown in almost all of his S4 scenes.

So is it possible for him to move on from Mike and get a real happy ending with a random, last-minute love interest? Well, I’ll let Will answer that question for me. 😉

[light-lanterne]

hmm, i just saw the loveliest gifset of nancy being protective of max and once again got reminded of the fact that she's never shown that amount of concern for mike.

for three seasons straight, she'd even leave him to his own devices when it wasn't the safest. ditching the kids at the gym in s1 regardless of the fact that they were being hunted,,, leaving them with steve in s2 when there were demodogs still at large (and knowing the kids have a proclivity towards getting themselves in danger),,, straight up driving away from starcourt, leaving them with no escape method, as well as russians and a flayed biIly in the premises (even when seeing first hand what happened to the last two flayed men they "killed").

in all three instances, mike's the only constant (which doesn't seem unintentional in the slightest) and it's not just about that. she's worried about will in s2 and s3,,, el in s3,,, max in s4,,, even on lower stake circumstances, she comforts dustin in s2, when he was sad at the snowball (even though mike was also moping at right around that same time).

and yet, for mike, she only showed concern in s1, a little in s3 (but it was mostly about will, seeing as he'd been targetted by the mf before), and a little in s4 after vecna shows her his plan.

idk,,, it just makes me sad to see her being so protective of everyone, pushing herself to be brave even when she's still just a teen girl who shouldn't be dealing with any of this, but always leaving her own brother to the end. almost like an afterthought; the last thing in her mind, only worrying about him when the big bad straight up shows her his death.

and even then, when he returns from cali after days of suspicious lack of contact, she doesn't give him a hug. doesn't ask how he's doing,,, doesn't even talk to him, from what we were shown.

because, after all, there are larger problems at hand than mike.

[kiirotoao]

HEYY YOUR SO PRETTY BTW AND I LOVE YOUR BLOG

the ask :

so, i wanted to get ur opinion on s3 mike. such as, what he was going through and his internalized homophobia. things like that!

maybe some things w/ him and his relationship w/ el too!

THANKS FOR ANSWERING IF U DO ANSWER :D

I’m gonna pretend that I’m fine after weeks of getting flustered just staring at this in my inbox! Thank you, anon!!! 🥺🥺 You’re making me blush! But, uh, anyways! Let’s talk about Mike Wheeler! 💙

I think that Mike in season 3 is the most interesting version of himself in the entire show because of how hidden his story becomes. In all other seasons, Mike cries openly with other people and expresses his sadness and fears over Will and El.

In season 3, though? Besides the finale, the tearful goodbyes narrated by Hopper, we never see Mike truly cry and explicitly talk through why. Sure, it can be pretty readily implied that it’s because of the Byers leaving, but we don’t hear that aloud. We don’t see exactly who’s on Mike’s mind as those cars pull away. We're left with silent and unsure stares, looks of seeming regret or something else unknown.

Season 3 is truly a huge turning point for Mike, he’s losing his girlfriend and arguably his closest friend in the Party, and it's so easily overlooked because it all happens at the very end of the final episode. Whereas El goes through hell and fights to connect to Billy and save her friends, where Max also feels the weight of his loss, where Will gets his heartbreaking scene at Castle Byers - all the Party members who are very linked to Mike get their emotional moments that season, and we know exactly why they cry.

But Mike dances around his emotions all season long. In consulting Lucas to deal with breaking up and making up with El, in trying to tell El that he loves her without ever saying it, in fighting with Will because "it's not [his] fault [Will doesn't] like girls."

Oh, Mike. I really don't think that Mike was out to hurt Will when he said that. Rather, it's a culmination of heteronormativity and the poor relationship that he has with El and trying to compensate for it. I interpret the outburst as him saying, 'it's not my fault that I'm in a relationship and you're not, so you wouldn't get it.' And by extension, Will being in a relationship would require, normatively, being with a girl.

But at the same time, for a jab that deep - I can't help but question more.

Mike could have said, "it's not my fault you don't like anyone!" or "don't bring her into this!" or even as simple as, "you wouldn't understand!" But no. Mike takes the direct train to sexuality station and brings up the fact that El is a girl. So it seems to me that Mike is very likely harboring something in his heart about why El being a girl is important for him to argue.

But we never know for sure. This moment is never addressed again due to the Mind Flayer’s sudden return. And so it’s up to us as the audience to decide what we think of Mike’s statement. And personally, as I’m sure many of you believe, too, I think that Mike is projecting and trying to hide the fact that he doesn’t like girls onto Will, pushing away his problems to someone he trusts who’s more similar to himself than he realizes.

Tied to his inability to say to El’s face that he loves her, to the fact that they've - reportedly from Hopper - kissed all Summer long with no mention of meaningful conversation, to the very surface-level relational mending his makes by calling El’s outfit “cool” and giving her candy, to the very end of the season where Mike once again denies saying that he loved El just before an open-eyed kiss and a face like this:

Mike doesn’t need to say anything about that kiss for me to know that that’s not the reaction of someone who’s perfectly happy to be back together with his ex-girlfriend. So do I wish that we had a moment of vulnerability for Mike where he expressed his heart in season 3? Yes, but his nonverbals spoke volumes.

So, yeah, I think that in season 3, Mike is very much gay, but he he acts cautiously and self-preservingly because trauma is drowning everything out.

And what is this trauma? I know that I’m working backwards, but I need to bring up that Mike was separated from El for so long in the time of season 2, and I think that that makes him so attached to her in season 3. Think about what else he says in that scene when he admits his love: “I love her and I can’t lose her again.”

As sweet as it is to be reunited to El by the end of season 2, it’s not a clean reunion for Mike. He’s in shambles when he learns that Hopper was lying to him and not letting El even tell Mike that she’s okay.

Not to mention that this isn’t his first but second time almost losing her to the monster that season.

Because of this unstable connection, I think that Mike has built a protective relationship with El, one that focuses on keeping her rather than knowing her, and we see how that all unfolds with his superficial “superhero” complex he has of her in season 4. Season 3 was just the beginning.

And so I think that Mike in season 3 stands as a version of himself that’s confused protectiveness with love. Even though he arguably behaves with that same mindset all the time, it’s at its highest during season 3 because of his never-ending insistence to help El even if she’s capable to do things by herself. Mike isn’t just clingy, he’s worried. Worried for her life. There’s no time to worry about where the problems in their relationship arise, there’s only time to fix them and go back to how they were at equilibrium - when things were normal.

Thus, Mike behaves rather stubbornly. He’s insistent and defensive, not letting a single thing slip through the cracks and risk any more hurt. In doing so, his personality is left far under the surface and unexplored. He only acts to stir up emotions rather than reflect on them, because any pausing to think will only confuse him more. He’s looking ahead, looking at the light, holding onto everything good he has with all the propriety of a 13/14-year-old who has a heart bigger than his head.

Simply put, Mike is a bit of an anti-hero this season. And I think that it's because of this that he starts to get most controversial for the audience.

I’m clearly a Mike apologist, but I genuinely don’t think that he’s out to hurt anyone when he argues with others this season. He’s just stubborn and loud about it, which can definitely be to his fault at times. But in the end, when it comes down to who he loves, I think that season 3 is the era of change, and that ending scene with Hopper’s letter paints the perfect setup for the next seasons to reveal that Mike has a lot more going on under the surface that’s causing all of this. Maybe some regrets, things he wishes he could “turn back the clock” on, regarding, say, Will and El and how he treats them platonically and romantically? Just a thought.

The question of the day for Mike in season 3 stands: is he being selfish or selfless? And I think that it’s a mix of both, blended in with some heavy confusion due to role changing (not needing to protect El) and uncertain affections (not knowing how to figure out what he has with Will).

So, yeah. All in all, I think that Mike is really closeted in season 3 and doesn’t realize it until the final episode, and I honestly love him for it. As someone who’s gone through similar hurdles of internalized homophobia as a teen, it’s really heartwarming to see him grow and figure things out, even if the journey is far from perfect. It’s a humble origin story. And if he somehow ends up being straight and Byler isn’t endgame, well. I’ll be upset at the writers, but the impact still stands.

[mayabruhbruh]

do you think Mike’s behavior towards Will in S2 would somehow parallel his behavior towards El in S3?

Interesting ask! I like that comparison, though they are starkly different in nature. LETS THINK!!

So what you mean to point out is the glaring shift in attention from Will to El between seasons. I might've talked about this in an earlier post, but I love talking about it anyway, so let's dive in lmao.

So, I feel like it's pretty fair to say Mike is quite the easily-attatched, obsessive kind of person. And not in an insane way, at least not all the time, but you can see it in every season and in the way he sets his priorities. I mean, every season he finds something to latch onto and makes it his entire personality till something new comes along. And that's sort of what happened between seasons 2 and 3.

In season 2, Mike's sole purpose was to be by Will's side and to help figure out what was going on with him and the mind flayer. He was the one that was the most involved with his possession other than Joyce, and since he's just naturally such a leader and a genuinely objective-driven person, it was the only thing he focused on or worried about at all frankly all season.

Mike's determination to find Will in season one was his initial fixation, and I don't mean to use the term fixation to lessen the meaning of how much he invested himself in it. It's mainly a better way to express just how hyperfocused he gets in things like that. Mike nearly killed himself in season 1 for the slight chance that they might find Will again. WTF!? Anyway, season two was no different. With Will, his determination and general need to be of help is so prominent and almost default to him. It's really revealing of his priorities, the mere fact that he didn't go anywhere else for a solid few days while he watched over Will and wracked his brain for anything that could help fix the situation.

And that all changed, of course, with the reintroduction of El at the end of the second season. Of course, Mike still helped figure out how to stop the Mind Flayer without killing Will, but it was at that point that we knew once this was all over, his attention would shift to El in a similar manner.

Now, there's a bit of a difference in the behavior from season 2 to season 3 in terms of how he expresses that "obsession" or as we should probably just call it, "fixation." In season 2, it was driven with the intention of being helpful to Will in any and all ways that he could, whether that be comfort (the scene on his bed where they talk about the Mind Flayer), rationality (helping Joyce, Bob, Hopper etc. figure out the connections and offer useful understanding), or just company for a slowly deteriorating Will Byers, which can be backed up by the way he was solely with Will for a far majority of the season.

In season 3, the fixation he has for El is a little less within the area of his expertise, and lot more forced. And that's not at all to say that he just up and goes to El's cabin at the same time every day against his will lmfao. I really just mean that the organicness with which he latched onto Will's situation couldn't exactly be replicated here. Mike doesn't really get fixated on something without there being an end result or something useful to come out of it. So... that is to say he most definitely still had a goal in mind with his relationship with El. It's really just part of his formula and the recurring patterns presented in each season with every action he takes. Despite being an idiot, he's very methodical in what he does. And that's no different with El.

Mike after getting a girlfriend and thus eradicating the loser allegations:

Basically, what I'm saying is a regurgitation of what plenty of others have said on this app, and it's that he wants very badly, whether he knows it or not, to do one of three things:

for himself to come off as normal and typical teenage boy-ish as possible

for himself to come off as non-homosexual as possible

to prove to everyone that he is not "weird", as so many others have suspected (his bullies, his parents, literally everyone)

But, to be fair, those are all basically the same things. At least in Mike's book. And in his mind, a lot of his issues with not fitting in and the internal fear of being seen have a solution within his relationship with El. With her, he finds an excuse to back out of all of the things that remind him of just how "weird" he is. Turning down Dungeons and Dragons, the Cerebro setup, and indulging in all that teenager-y romance drama and moodiness was so out of character for him, and I feel like that really means something in the grand scheme. There have been many analyses on the stark capitalistic, bright and flashy artificiality of season 3, and Mike was a MAJOR part of that, especially in his drastic change in persona in just that season. (Note this analysis of his clothes in s3 I chimed in on as well, because it fits well with this lmao). Now, so many things that he once loved to do before can now be turned down with the excuse that he has someone. Someone (a girlfriend) that symbolizes (to society and by default, to him) manhood and true maturity and whatnot. She, to him, can be the light at the end of the bleak tunnel called life in Hawkins, Indiana, where he can't be who he wants, but he can settle for a questionable relationship with a friend that excuses all of that weirdness (*cough* queerness *coughcough*) in him that he can't seem to shake without her.

It's smart of him, really. I mean, he likes her! They've gone through a lot together, and having a good friend that he can easily deem as someone he like likes despite not really knowing what he wants is just him taking easy street. Sadly, he neglected to realize that pretending to be in love with someone might cause said someone to fall in love too. Someone innocent, new to the world, and susceptible to that kind of feeling. BAD IDEA MICHEAL.

He saw a lot of the repercussions of that in season 4, where El's feelings came a lot more into play and the whole "being normal" and "getting girlfriends" deal had begun to wear off in his mind. His relationship with DnD came back with that too, and I think it has a lot to do with his realization that he fucked up. Big time. Season 4 is really a whole other story. Basically him trying to salvage their relationship despite realizing his attraction toward her was all a lie. He didn't really like like her, he just liked the idea of being relieved of his societal expectations by being with her. And once he met Eddie and learned that conformity is what's killing the kids, it finally dawned on him that he really dated El solely to conform. And that's fucked up. And he realizes this. But isn't sure how to fix it.

Oh well, that's an issue for season 5 to resolve.

My purpose for writing this is not to confirm Byler or to shoot down M!ileven. All I hope to do is offer script-centered reasoning and analysis for the events depicted in the show, so that it can help connect the dots on what may happen next. Truthfully, whether Mike ends up gay, straight, with Will, with El, or WHATEVER, I truly believe that the narrative in season 4 intends for us to pick up on the fact that Mike has come to the realization that he isn't in love with El, he never was really, and that he is dealing with the shockwaves that his too-young compulsory love decision has wrought for them. It is kind of his fault, because despite being young and stupid when he initiated it between them, she was even younger and stupider and happened to follow his lead. (I love El, I am NOT calling her stupid lmfao I just mean he sort of used her lack of knowledge and experience in society to his advantage unknowingly and led them down the path to where they are now.)

Anyway, that's what I think about Mike's behavior between seasons. Sorry, this was unnecessarily long, but I hope it answered your question LMFAO.

Please shoot me a message or another ask if there's any more questions or thing you'd like me to expand more on! Y'all know I can yap for hours over this.

[starbylers]

This is a response to the person who sent me an ask about their doubt last week, just hiding it below incase people don’t want to see that :)

For context this is an in-depth explanation of:

Why Mike’s monologue had to happen

Hi! And yeah of course I can try. I fully understand why the monologue is throwing you off and as someone who doesn’t believe Mike was consciously lying you’ve come to the right place lol. I explained a little more about why I think that in the tags here if you wanted to read more about that perspective. I’ll probably link to a few other posts in this aswell because it ties into a lot of stuff I’ve made Byler analyses about before.

So the thing you said about his arc being ‘does he love her or not?’ is what I think is causing the issue, because that isn’t Mike’s arc. You’re right in that that’s the question that is being posed to the audience at face value, but that’s not his character journey. I have a long post about this here but essentially, the core driving force of a character cannot be another person—Mike needs to, and does, have his own personal inner conflicts which the Byler perspective provides (pressure to perform being grown up which is made incredibly obvious to us in s3, and dealing with the tumultuous process of figuring out that he is not straight in s4—I personally don’t think he’s there yet though, I think the full realisation of why he’s been having all these problems with Will & El is still to come).

The perspective of ‘yes he does’ love her just because he said the words is the crux of the entire plot twist, because it’s the conclusion people inevitably come to when they don’t pay attention to the details. (I don’t mean this insultingly at all btw! The whole thing is very subtle and easy to misinterpret). And ST is all about details, something which has been told to us by the creators and is also obvious in their use of foreshadowing/hinting/referencing in all aspects of the show, not just Byler.

Mike’s arc didn’t finish a season early. This has even been told to us i.e. by David talking about how s5 will pay off big characters including Mike, and Finn himself saying Mike still has a ‘journey’ to complete, and also just the fact that we don’t have the final season means no-one’s arcs are complete because the story isn’t complete. The fact that a “love confession” occurred at the midpoint (s4/5 are basically intended as two halves of one story—post explaining this here) is what makes it extremely obvious that Mlvn is not the conclusion of this tale.

The monologue can probably be said to have many purposes, but here are the main ones to me:

It presents a solution that ultimately ends in disaster, and associates that disaster with Mike and El’s romance. The monologue is so, so important in showing that Mike and El’s love did not, could not save the day. That it wasn’t strong enough—further proof from the script here. It shows that El got what she thought she wanted, only to discover it wasn’t what she really needed. It may have helped save her but it didn’t help her achieve her goals (save Max, kill Vecna). Kind of a metaphor for their entire relationship lol. It’s also supposed to show that not even an ‘I love you’ can fix their issues—they literally don’t speak afterwards. I’m not sure El’s fully processed all this yet, but figuring it out is what’s going to drive her arc towards self-actualisation and allow her to win next season.

It furthers the miscommunication plot between Mike and Will. It’s an indisputable fact that Will’s lie influenced that monologue. (We can tell just by watching but it’s also in the script if we needed even more proof lol. Not to mention: the track that plays behind it is You’re The Heart. The episode is called The Piggyback. Will’s face is right over Mike’s shoulder when he says ‘I love you’—Will is integral to and inseparable from that confession). That is so important, and something we’re supposed to notice. The whole point of the monologue is who’s really behind it (aka who’s really behind the painting & words that drove Mike’s speech), because this sets the stage for the Byler confrontation next season. It’s literally the Benverly poem plot from IT, something we know the Duffers have taken inspiration from.

If Mike hadn’t gone through with it, there would be no movement forward in the story, we’d enter s5 with exactly the same plot we just watched in s4—Mike trying to say he loves his girlfriend for the literal third season in a row. It’s boring, it’s not good entertainment. Mike finally saying it (and yet there still being problems between them & it occurring under questionable circumstances) pushes development in the narrative, sets up new conflict for the next season. Or, if Mlvn had decided to break up because of Mike not saying it in s4, that would’ve led to Byler becoming painfully obvious and ruining the twist they’ve been setting up for literal seasons. Everyone knows Will loves Mike, and if Mlvn broke up in that same season the entire audience would see the ending of the show coming from a mile away. Remember, Byler is being written as a plot twist. It’s very likely tied up with the supernatural plot too.

The content of the monologue itself is supposed to demonstrate precisely why Mlvn are finished, why they don’t work, and should raise people’s eyebrows about the legitimacy of Mike’s “confession”. Like you said…he remembered her t-shirt lol. It’s impersonal, nothing about why he loves her or what he loves about her; he literally, proveably, lies in it and anyone can verify that by watching s1; and he makes comparisons to superheroes which is the exact opposite of what El needs (her whole issue is thinking she’s either the monster or the superhero, when what she really needs is to stop thinking in such a binary, and learn to be El the teenage girl, the sister, the daughter, the friend, the human being, and find her power in that).

And something else they purposefully do this season is give us examples of other love confessions to contrast and show how ingenuine Mike’s really is: Jancy & Will (not my original post! I just expanded on op’s point).

Now as I said before I don’t think Mike intentionally lied. My opinion is that he knows deep down something is not right with their relationship and that he doesn’t feel how he should, but after Will’s speech and encouragement he choses to believe that he can love her, that he can be what she needs (except it’s not what she needs, it’s what Will needs lol). So not lying, but the monologue is basically a desperate attempt to a) grasp at straightness and b) save her life. He’s in denial, and also terrified of her dying. Very bad combo.

So yeah there’s my reasoning :) what you were saying about the potential of a familial ‘I love you’ is true, yeah it could’ve ended the plot line. But that’s the kind of thing that should be a conclusion to the entire story, something that occurs right before victory not disaster. Because then what would the implication be? That El’s family’s love isn’t enough for her to save the world?

And the way they will explain the monologue is so simple. It’s Will. It’s Will’s feelings that inspired Mike. All that needs to happen is for Mike to realise that, and the audience will realise it along with him. Mike: I only said that because of how much Will loves me? Audience: Oh! So he doesn’t actually love her! It’s Will, Will is who he’s meant to be with! It’s a classic ‘the person who was right in front of them all along’ trope. Once people understand that, it basically makes truly romantic interpretations of the monologue invalid.

I can’t say exactly how the ending will play out—I expect we’ll see the cracks in Mlvn shatter rapidly as s5 progresses, maybe more arguing/demonstration of their incompatibility or El asking Mike to say it to her face and he still can’t, Mike and Will simultaneously getting closer and it becoming increasingly obvious that Mike is in love—but I’m choosing to trust they’ll do it justice. Mike’s monologue is just a key turning point in the larger story.

Also just one last thing, you said he seems sincere and I do agree but I think it’s because his fear in that moment is extremely real, and there are truths within his monologue i.e. that he doesn’t want to lose her etc. so that’s where it’s coming from in my opinion :)

[wheeler-things]

It's literally such a small thing but...

So, you know how all through s4, Dustin is the one in Hawkins really figuring out what's happening and also, like, coming up with a bunch of the plans? And the whole time he's so snippy and snarky about it, when the people around him (in particular the older teens) don't understand what he's talking about? And the older teens, especially Steve and Eddie are annoyed by his "ego"?

I was rewatching Eddie's campaign scene in s4e1 earlier today for my earlier post and there's that moment when they're all huddled up to discuss what to do about Vecna, and Mike's 0'd out along with everyone else except Dustin and Erica, and nobody knows what to do, and Dustin turns to Mike, like it's the most natural thing in the world, and asks for his opinion. And waits for Mike to consider. And seems much more confident in his own decision to keep fighting after Mike talks about the risks but tells him that the choice is up to him.

Like. I just think there's something really interesting about the fact that Dustin trusts, wants, and asks for Mike's opinion, specifically. Even just in D&D. I don't know.

Thinking about Mike and Dustin meeting up at the end of s3 and Dustin earnestly telling Mike they could have really used him down there, and Mike saying that they could have used Dustin up with the Mind Flayer.

Thinking about how this little gesture in the middle of a D&D game shows how much trust Dustin has in Mike's abilities as a leader and strategist. Thinking about how Dustin doesn't turn to anyone else that way/that naturally (as far as I can remember) all through s4. How things went sideways and Mike was unreachable AGAIN, this time halfway across the country.

Like? Honestly no wonder Dustin's attitude was the way it was this season? Poor kid was trying to be himself and Mike-- both the scientist and the strategist all at the same time-- for everyone else. That's exhausting.

idk I'm just very suddenly having a lot of feelings about Mike and Dustin's friendship.

[thestrangestthing89]

Catching up on some of the behind the scenes stuff. My take on what we have seen so far...

Mike having a similar look to season 1 is so good for him. I think it shows he is more comfortable with himself. He's going back to his roots when he was the character everyone loved. So I think we will get a more authentic Mike and Paladin Mike back right off the bat.

I like the blue polo with the yellow collar. And it looks like his jacket is a little green in the video with him and El (like a sage green/greyish green color). It reminds me a bit of the color block polo he was wearing in S3 which makes me wonder if Will is going to have a matching one this season too.

Mike and El's relationship closely resembles Nancy and Steve's. El broke up with him with the From El letter and he knows this. I've written about this a lot so I'm not going to get into it here, but the fact that at the end of S4 shows a 2 day time jump and after this point Mike and El aren't even talking and they are rolling their eyes at each other is meant to indicate that something happened with them during that time jump that wasn't good.

The fact that S5 seems to pick up a couple years later (judging by El's hair) I think is further proof that they already filmed part of S5 back when they were doing S4. The part that picks up right where S4 ended I think was already done. So I think this is where we will get to see a clarification of what exactly happened during that 2 day jump and get confirmation that Mike and El broke up already.

Their relationship was defined as being immature and made both of them feel badly about themselves. They were already at a point where they wanted it over so there is no reason narratively why that needs to drag out over 2 years when neither of them is happy.

Especially considering Mike's new look where he is dressing more like himself. They have established for 2 seasons that Mike isn't himself when he is with El. So him acting more comfortable and looking more like himself all points to him and El having broken up a while ago. He had time to figure out what was authentic for him already over a time jump.

I think Mike and El's conversation has more to do with reestablishing a friendship. They didn't communicate well when they were in a relationship and El dismissed Mike's feelings a lot (the conversation about bullying being one of those times), so I think it's possible they drifted apart during the couple year jump because I think it's hard for Mike to trust her. I saw people comparing it to the train track conversation back in S1 and I think that's accurate. That conversation was meant to indicate the first time Mike started seeing her as a friend (even though they really didn't reach an understanding here the way he thought). But I think this time it actually will establish a real friendship in a way that was different than before.

I do think think it's likely Mike and Will are together at this point in the beginning of S5. But either way I think a lot of this conversation with El has to do with Mike telling her how he feels about Will and them being honest with each other for the first time.

Mike and El have very few one on one scenes together. I think I can count on one hand the amount of conversations they have had where it was just the two of them and a group wasn't around them. To me, this indicates that this conversation is actually important. Unlike a lot of their other conversations where they weren't communicating well or they weren't acting like themselves. But I think in keeping with the pattern the show has always had, this is likely the last one on one scene with them until the end of the season. They tend to not interact much in the middle of every season so I would be surprised if there was much more content with just the two of them.

This scene is very platonic just based on their body language. They aren't close or acting in any romantic way. And again, the fact that they seem comfortable indicates that they have had time to reflect on their relationship and heal from it. Mike is never comfortable around El in S3 or S4. He is never comfortable with her touching him or being close with her. So the fact that he is here, is further proof to me that it's already over. He isn't pretending anymore (I think he was done with this by the end of S4).

Another thing that makes me think they haven't spent much time together over a jump of a few years is Mike directly telling Will in S4 that he wished he spent less time with El and more with him. He already made the mistake of not spending time with Will and regretted it. He isn't going to do that again. So I think it's possible that he has been spending more time with Will to make up for it and ended up pulling away from El. And this conversation in S5 is meant to be an acknowledgement of that and the fact that he can have a romantic relationship with Will and a platonic one with El at the same time. Two people he has been struggling to have a relationship at the same time with since pretty much the beginning of the series.

Very curious to see what Will's look is because I don't think it's a bowl cut. I always thought that hairstyle was meant to indicate him holding on to his childhood and all of his trauma. If he has a new look I think it's a good hint that not only is he more comfortable with himself but that him and Mike are already together at the beginning of S5. The show has already established that the two of them are only comfortable with themselves when they are together. Mike being true to himself is a good thing. It shows he learned and grew from his immature behavior in the past few seasons. I would be surprised if Will's look doesn't indicate the same based on where his character arc left off at the end of S4.

[biigiiiii]

Byler (responses) timeline:

S1/2 - “cute, but yknow it’s not gonna happen, right? Wills just a sensitive kid, doesn’t mean he’s gay just cause Lonnie and his bullies think so. Plus Will showed an interest in Max too, at first.”

S3 - “so fucking delusional please shut up, mlvn forever. stop pushing the gay agenda, you misogynistic El haters.”

S4 - “Mike actually doesn’t really like Will that much and it’s not that deep. You know that this is The Mlvn Show, and will end on a mlvn wedding right? Maybe will is gay but his happy ending doesn’t mean finding out the love of his life loves him back, it will be just as satisfying to watch his heart break and getting over it off screen. Also will is gonna die probably cause - bury your gays.”

Meanwhile, bylers were going insane and feeling despair the first few months following season 4, but slowly slowly regaining confidence when more and more analysis were made and Melvin’s become more and more insufferable. And now, we’re at the point collectively where we’re so confident in byler endgame and how it’s gonna turn out, that we’re just seeing it as fact at this point and talking about key byler scenes (rain fight, UD kiss, etc) like they’ve already happened. Which honestly I love this for us cause that’s manifestation, baby 🤣

[krunktrunk]

Mike ignored Will.

between s3 and s4, he ignored him, he pushed him away, he was scared of his feelings and thought it would just be easier to ignore everything about them.

now you might be saying "but KrunkTrunk, in s4 we hear Dustin saying Mike complains all the time that the phone is occupied, and he wouldn't be calling El because of the government!" and to that I would say you are right.

Mike did call a lot. he did complain a lot. he couldn't have been calling El, that's why they send letters and have the walkie-talkie things. you are right. but that doesn't mean that Mike wasn't ignoring Will. it just means he was trying to hide the fact that he was.

Joyce gets a telemarketing job, and the phone is used all the time. He can't ever get through. okay, so if that was the case, wouldn't you stop calling and send a letter? or even talk over the walkie-talkie and ask El to hand it to Will sometimes? you would, because you want to be able to speak to your friend, but Mike doesn't do that.

see, calling means he's trying. It means he's 'showing' an attempt that he can tell himself that Will is actually the one not talking to him. but if he were to send a letter, that means Will would actually read it, and he would get a letter back, and suddenly , they are interacting. he doesn't want that. he wants the phone-line to be dead on the other end, he wants to pretend that Will is ignoring him because that means the slither of hope that Will returns his feelings can die, and he can throw himself back to El and be, normal. just like he did on the night of snowball, he is pushing for himself to get rejected, but everytime he does, it doesn't happen. this was his last attempt, last shot on getting that rejection yet when he sees Will in person he doesn't get that. he instead gets even more signs that the feelings might be reciprocated.

so yeah, Mike ignored Will, just not in the way Will thought he was.

[chirpsythismorning]

Fun fact: the shot of Mike stepping off the cliff in s1 was likely a visual parallel to Sarah jumping off the stairs in this shot from Labyrinth (1986).

For those that haven't read this theory, please do because I didn’t make these observations myself and the original post goes a lot deeper into the details from Labyrinth, which in some ways align a little too conveniently with the narrative we’re seeing unravel on the show with Mike over the seasons.

For some basic context, in s4, we even get a reference to M.C. Escher’s Relativity hanging on the wall in Mike’s room, which is also on the wall of Sarah’s bedroom, along with that work being what inspired the scene in Labyrinth. 

This next part has actually been talked about before quite a bit in the fandom, even outside of tumblr, so it’s not exactly some breakthrough as a concept on its own.

Every season, in the first scene (re)introducing the main characters, Mike is running late in some capacity. In 1x01 it’s around 3 minutes, in 2x01 it’s around 6 minutes, in 3x01 it’s around 8 minutes, and in 4x01 it’s around 13 minutes. 

So technically not the literal season opener, as that’s usually reserved to a flashback at some different location, but obviously still within those first 15 minutes, following directly after the opener…

And since we already have an idea of what the opening of s5 is going to be, what do we think the scene directly after it is going to be? You know, in the scene that Mike has been consistently running late in, for four seasons now?

Speaking of 15 minutes, I think that if they were to keep this trend going for the final season (the full circle-ness of it all is honestly too epic to pass up), it’s likely that this final time it will happen around the 15 minute mark of 5x01, as that would make the build up for it each season pretty consistent.

And not only that, but it would also literally be a callback to what Karen says to Mike that first time he’s late in s1: 

And here’s my other favorite line from one of these scenes, in the context of this theory, because it literally acknowledges this concept directly and with this air of foreshadowing I cannot stress enough:

Interestingly, another detail that ties all these ‘Mike being late’ scenes together, is stairs.

In s1 he’s running up the stairs to convince his mom to let them keep playing.

In s2 he’s rushing down the stairs trying to avoid Nancy’s wrath.

In s3 he’s awkwardly bumping into strangers going down the escalator in Starcourt Mall.

And in s4 he’s hurrying down the stairs on his way to school.

The whole point of Labyrinth is that it’s an allegory for growing up, with Sarah going from dressing up as a princess to reenact one of her favorite fairytales after being chastised by her step-mom for not going on more dates like girls her age, to Sarah rejecting her childhood and it leading to an unfortunate series of events, forcing her to face reality and take responsibility of her own life.

Does this sound like anyone we know?

Mike, who starts the show in s1 playing DND animatedly with his friends before being interrupted by his mom to end the campaign despite protests, to his mom in s2 punishing his bad behavior by having him get rid of some of his favorite toys, to him in s3 insisting that they’re 'not kids anymore' and that it was inevitable for them to stop playing games and grow up and get girlfriends, to him now in s4 reverting back to this earlier version of himself, sporting the Hellfire shirt proudly, to then reverting back to pretending when showing up at the airport with Argyle calling his outfit a shitty knock off (aka calling Mike a shitty knock-off), and without the story ever acknowledging why those shifts happened in the first place, and with one season left?

Hint? Forced conformity. That’s what’s killing the kids. That’s the real monster.

They literally told us already that out of all the monster we've seen in the show, this is what is worse than all of that. Meaning that what is about to go down, most likely topping everything we've seen up to this point, is likely going to involve forced conformity.

I also think it’s interesting that the scene in Labyrinth happened during the climax of the film, because arguably if you were to watch Stranger Things in its entirety, from s1-5, the beginning of s5 is going to feel very much like the climax to the overall story. 

Things are going to be happening fast. The stakes are insane because they need to top everything that they’ve done up to this point. Something’s gotta give. And Mike is just not looking safe out here guys.

I could go on and on about all the hints that Mike is danger, but I’ll just share my favorites. 

How am I gonna survive a whole week without you guys? Mike says, at the tail end of his opening scene in s4, and with s5 set to start at the end of said week.

Mike sitting in front of an antique funeral home fan in the s4 promotional pictures of the party in the Creel attic.

Nancy saying she saw Mike die in the vision Vecna showed her, with the early stages of said vision coming true as season 4 nears its end.

Mike getting hit in the head with an arrow front and center by Suzie’s brother, in a sequence that was loaded with foreshadowing for the end of s4 (and beginning of s5?).

Watch out dominos. Your dominos are gonna fall. Argyle says, with Mike equally in the frame behind him.

Without heart, we’d all fall apart. Will says, after telling Mike he’s the heart.

A Karen lookalike standing in front of the missing person's board at the end of s4.

Mike’s very first line in the show (also the literal first line in the show) being A shadow grows on the wall behind you, swallowing you into the darkness. It is almost here…

So maybe, theoretically speaking, what we could get by that 15 minute mark going into s5, is Mike running late one last time, and it potentially being a callback to that cliff scene ie. Labyrinth.

Another scene that I think might've been foreshadowing what is currently going down, is Max and Mike both getting knocked out by Billy at the end of s3. Max goes down first and Mike follows right after, though Max is the first to come to and help them both up.

We know Max is unlikely to be separated from the rest of the characters the whole season, that’s just not feasible. She'll at least be on-screen despite maybe not being back with the others right away, even if it’s just a cryptic cliffhanger at the end of 5x01, followed by her returning more consistently on screen after that leading up to her rescue. With the way things ended in s4 though, we need to know where she’s at and get to finding her. Which is why I think at most it will be a 1-2 episode arc.

So maybe, this moment from s3 was a hint about Max and Mike’s impending doom at the hands of Vecna, as a result of not only their emotional states, but also their bonds with El, and them then being isolated for a short time (presumed dead), only to find their way back?

It’s also worth noting Mike was the only person to witness any of Max’s symptoms from the curse prior to her finding out about it, with the camera focusing on him beside her and looking at her worriedly as her nose bled. We don’t know who Vecna’s fourth victim was going to be, because Max threw herself in as bait, but could it have originally been Mike?

I know a lot of people don't like the Mike getting Vecna'd theories or Mike is depressed takes and so if you find yourself in that position, feel free to subtweet away or whatever you need to cope with my nonsense.

I'm not a big Mike is suicidal truther or anything even, nor do I think it makes sense for him to get Vecna'd in the traditional sense like how it happened with the others in s4 because the gates are open. But Vecna still hasn’t carried out his entire plan, a plan that includes Mike dying. And the imagery surrounding it all leading up to this is compelling regardless.

If one shot at the end of s3, with Max sitting in Billy's room while Hopper was in the background saying and yeah sometimes it's painful and sometimes it's sad was enough to hint at her whole depression arc in s4, then Mike being focused on for multiple shots while Hopper was in the background saying But, lately, I guess I've been feeling... distant from you. Like you're pulling away from me or something.-- And I guess, if I'm being really honest, that's what scares me. I don't want things to change, with Mike looking longingly at the Byers house, cutting to Will looking out the car window crying, then cutting back to Mike walking into his mom's arms with a dead stare on his face, has gotta be enough to justify dude going through some shit, which coincidentally matches up with everything talked about here.

Turns out getting to Mike, now that was the key…

Maybe the first episode of s5 is about Mike ending up wherever Max is, somewhere caught in between, and them ‘crawling’ back ie. The Crawl.

Definitely might add some context to that funkopop shot-listing video Ross posted, followed by one other photo a few days later with the caption being that they finished shot-listing for 5x01-5x02. Meaning the initial video posted was likely from 5x01...

[cringengl]

One of the reasons why I think they saved confirming Will as gay for s4, is to distract from Mike's queercoding.

When the GA watch the rain fight, they probably think about how Will doesn't like girls, he's probably gay, and how sad it is to see Mike and Will's friendship fracture. This distracts from thinking about how "it's not my fault you don't like girls" also sounds a lot like projection, or how weird it is that the writers are having Mike trying to act grown up by dating El, dressed similarly to his father, in a show that celebrates childhood and friendships.

A similar phenomenon happens during the rink o mania fight. The GA tend to use this scene as proof of Will's sexuality, his jealousy and hurt over Mike not communicating with him like he did with El is the first big hint towards Will's feelings for Mike in s4. However, the rink o mania fight also works to distract from the fact that it's weird that Mike didn't talk to Will, or hug him in the airport, sending the message that he's ignoring him, despite them being best friends and then Mike noticing that Will is rolling his eyes and moping. The line "we're friends, we're friends" is so incriminating for Mike, like yeah, Will already knows that, what were you thinking Mike?? The trope of the endgame couple saying that they're "just friends" is always such obvious set up, it's an expectation just aching to be subverted, Mike and Will are going to end up as more than friends.

The thing is, the GA is so much more likely to pick up on Will's queercoding, not only because it has been more overtly hinted at throughout the previous seasons, and it is also more palatable since Will has never had a girlfriend, but also because we lack Mike's perspective in s3 and s4. Once we start seeing Mike's struggle with conformity, growing up and internalised homophobia, lines like "it's not my fault you don't like girls" and "we're friends, we're friends" is going to be considered as hints towards Mike liking Will on a wider scale.

In short, due to Will's more obvious and palatable queercoding, the GA are more likely to be looking for reasons to assume Will is gay, rather than Mike. Before Will had been confirmed as gay, the audience is more likely to think that byler scenes are supposed to hint at Will's sexuality, which they wouldn't have thought if this was already confirmed as there would be no need for this to be done. This may also lead to byler scenes being interpreted as "proof Will is gay" scenes instead of "proof byler is endgame" scenes.

[greenfiend]

Hi there! Let me first say that I love your (and kaypeaces21s and strangertheorys) theories about Will having DID and many of the previously established characters being his alters. Out of all the theories I've seen so far it makes by far the most sense and explains so much which I've just thought to be bad writing before (like Hoppers sudden personality shift in S3) And if you don't mind, I would love to hear your thoughts on Max as an alter in particular if you ever come around to write them down as Max's journey in S4 seemed really noteworthy to me especially when compared to Els. Like in theory El is in the best starting position for a fresh new start. New town, a family that cares for her, a boyfriend. Max on the other hand is depressed, isolates herself and breaks up with her boyfriend Lucas. However after that I find it interesting how Max's ties to the outside world strengthen (through Lucas and everyone else who tries to help her) while Els actually weaken. Hopper and Joyce aren't there, it's becoming more obvious day by day that Mike neither understands her nor loves her romantically and even though Will is trying to help fix their relationship, it is also not working. (We all know why) The further along the story goes, the more lonely El seems to become. This happens while Max gets back together with Lucas and Lucas making it clear how much he loves her, doesn't want her to get hurt and wants to help her, if she would just talk to him. (which I know she can't do under any circumstance) "Running up that hill" also has a very special meaning I think. Like yeah, at first it makes you think she wants to switch places with Billy and what that implies (and I do think it does carry that meaning as well) but there may also be a very different meaning beyond that. One that goes into the complete opposite direction.

"And if I (Max) only could, I'd make a deal with God (Will) and I'd get him to swap our places (Max's and Wills)" Just listen to the song from the perspective of Max as an alter and and think of how it may depict her relationship with with Will. It's seriously heartbreaking. I think if there is any chance (even if ever so slightly) of one alter not integrating back into the system in the end, it may be Max (and not El)

Re: this post on DID/Will's internal world

Anon!!!! Thank you for bringing up MAX! There’s SO much to discuss here.

First of all, I think more people are slowly starting to accept the very real possibility that Will created El… BUT they’re not willing to accept this of Max yet. Understandably so!

Some evidence for the fact that Max is another alter of Will's:

When Max is first introduced, it was mid way through a lecture on the brain. Mr. Clarke states that there are "a hundred billion cells" "all working as one". Suspicious...

Then of course, this sequence. A "complete change to his personality" you say? Now. WHY would they feature Will and Max during these specific lines if Max is NOT an alter of Will's?

"And I am a material girl". Double meaning here. "Material Girls" as in they are materialistic but also...

Anon, as you brilliantly pointed out... "Running Up that Hill" also has a double meaning. Look at these screenshots! They literally CUT the song so it would line up right when we focus on the WILL lookalike girl (same hair colour, VERY similar shirt... people here have already dubbed her the "lesbian Will/Willow") and Max glancing at her. They focus on Max glancing at her!!! Max wants her time "in the light". She's been in the dark so long. A dark place, because of always "swapping places" with Will and the other alters. She wants her chance at life. Oh boy doesn't that just break your heart...

I need to show some major appreciation for this whole sequence! We see the "swapping places" in action. We start with El in the spotlight (Will just lagging behind) then BAM she swaps places with Max. It's Max's turn. Look at how she watches that couple with a look of longing then sees her love (Lucas). Afterwards, she encounters another struggling alter (Chrissy) and looks on empathetically.

You’re absolutely right that El will choose to “combine”/integrate with Will again. She feels she doesn’t belong anywhere. With Max? She’s beginning to find more connections and more reason to be her own person. It’s opposite for these two! I’m hoping there is some sort of way she can become her own person in the end but I’m not sure which route they’re taking. 🤔

[erikiara80]

Will, Mike and Henry

Long post, sorry. There’s so much to talk about!

Spoilers on Fringe, The Dark Tower and Back to the future. 

Also warning: dark and heartbreaking theory on Will and Lonnie.

One of my theories is that Mike is actually Marty McFly (BTTF), not Will. Will is Doc Brown, and also Peter Bishop (Fringe). And the story we are seeing is about timelines more than actual parallel worlds. 

Time is the key. Will is the key. And I think it’s possible that the story is a loop, so there are different timelines. Will’s very existence could be the heart of the story 

1.  BTTF: Mike has more parallels with Marty than Will

I know, Will’s outfit in S1, his name on the grandfather clock and the Forever Clock in S3. But maybe that would be too obvious.

If you think about it, Mike is the one who’s always late, like Marty. He’s the one associated with letters (Marty saves Doc by warning him about his murder in a letter). And he seems to know things others ignore, like Marty when he’s in 1955. The difference is that Mike doesn’t know why he knows those things.

So, if Mike is Marty, but Will is the one connected to clocks, imo it means that Will is Doc. And we know what happens to him. The story begins with Doc’s death and ends with Marty saving him. I think it’s possible that the same thing happened to Will. If there is an original timeline, maybe Will died. And if it’s true, I think it was Lonnie who killed him. 

I was reading Heroesbyler’s post on him (the next two screenshots are from their blog) Yeah, Lonnie could definitely kill his child. Maybe it was an accident, but I can see the scene. Try to be a man! Stop crying! Then he chokes him and throws his body in the Quarry.

In all his scenes there’s something creepy. In one, he makes a comment on the Evil Dead poster, where a monster is choking a woman. The very next scene Mike complains that his father is choking him. 

Either this means that Lonnie got violent with Will and then convinced him not to tell Joyce, or it’s a hint of what really happened in the original timeline.

If this was true, Hopper’s line would also be a hint: 99 times out of 100 the kid is with a friend or relative...

Like someone else said (sorry, I don’t remember who it was!) we could be in the 1 time out of 100. Like Joyce said. ST timeline is the one where Will’s alive. Brought back by time manipulation. So he kinda is a time traveler.

Imo, it’s not a coincidence that he and Jonathan are listening to Should I stay or should I go when Joyce is arguing with Lonnie about Will. Or that Jonathan is listening to it again, when he thinks Lonnie could be involved in what happened to Will.

I keep thinking about Will singing when Mike hears him:

If I go, there will be trouble And if I stay it will be double

If he goes (dies) there will be trouble (his family and friends will suffer)

And if he stays (the timeline where he doesn’t die) it will be double (the villain needs him, so if he’s alive, the whole world is in danger, and everyone will suffer)

Well. I don’t even know if I want this to be true, tbh. It’s so heartbreaking. Poor child. Maybe this is just about him thinking that, if he dies, Henry can’t use him. I don’t know. Maybe.

But who did alter the timelines and create this loop? I don’t think it was Mike. I think it was Henry. When, exactly, I don’t know. But if he has time powers maybe Will does have them too. It’s Doc Brown who invented the time machine, right?

Anyway, Will being both the boy who came back to life and Zombie Boy would make even more sense.

And this makes me think of the second big parallel. With Peter Bishop

2. Fringe. Will and Henry are both Peter

In S4 there are many parallels with Fringe. But Henry’s fake name, Peter, is the most interesting. And the fact that in the store where they buy the guns there are the name Peter and a big key... Peter-Henry and Peter-Will and what happened to them is the key. The mystery that needs to be solved.

In Fringe, seven year old PrimeWorld!Peter dies, but his father Walter can’t accept his death, so he travels to a parallel world, takes the other Peter, and in doing so, the portal he opens causes devastating consequences (god, I love these two so much)

The solution: they erase Peter, because his very existence is causing the end of the world. But after he’s been erased by The Machine, he mysteriously reappears in a lake. Why? Because Olivia, the woman who loves him and also has powers, can’t forget him. Her love is too strong.

So, PrimeWorld!Peter was buried. But then Walter took Alt!Peter.  Alt!Peter got erased, but then came back. So Peter is also a boy who came back to life

And Henry too was “buried”. Henry, Will, Peter.

In S2 Joyce asked what would happen when her boy is gone. And the ST account posted a video on IG in 2017 where Will disappears from the photo like Marty McFly. 

Something about altered timelines. People forgetting about him. Mike always being late... but why? What couldn’t he stop?

And why a loop?

I’m not sure. Maybe the story keeps repeating itself because nobody wins, so Henry changes things everytime? Something else?

For now, I just found hints that there could be a loop. And there are many 

Mike. He is sure about things, as if he’s already lived them, but doesn’t know why. It feels like he’s having deja vu. Maybe he’s like Olivia in Fringe, who could remember Peter even after he was erased. Maybe Mike’s love for Will makes him more aware of the dangers. Because in his heart he knows/ remembers that something horrible happened to Will.

Other things: The Neverending story, the Forever Clock. Max mentioning a loop in the Creel house (she’d want to have a longer loop). El being stuck in a loop at the Nina Project. Characters saying things like: This isn’t real, these things aren’t real, this doesn’t make sense. Should I stay or should I go. Nancy’s your timeline is wrong in S2. Mike saying to Will maybe all this is happening for a reason. Suzie calling the plot with the Russians absurd. Like, if the story is repeating itself, it makes sense that it gets weirder and weirder. Bob saying This is the future! about his camera (Doc Brown’s camera)  And Will also saying: I have seen into the future!  Maybe because all this has already happened

The rose could be a reference to The Dark Tower, a story about a loop (connected to The Talisman) and where the villain is defeated with the help of an artist who has the ability to draw pictures that become or alter reality. 

So, a rose in the house of the one person with time powers, who hates the very concept of time...

Speaking of Henry, there are definitely many Henries in the rainbow room. At least four. And what he says, I think it’s important:

Each life a faded, lesser copy of the one before

Maybe he’s just talking about people doing the same things until they die. But this can also describe what happens in a loop. Events repeating themselves to the point they almost don’t make sense anymore. And people who are stuck, unable to move on, can lose their minds (thinking about all the references to asylums and sick people) Also, parallel worlds are not lesser copies. They’re just almost identical worlds. Faded, lesser... makes me think that there is One World, and all the others are copies. Maybe timelines that have been altered.

After that line, when Henry says that people just eat, reproduce and die, there is an echo. I thought it was just to emphasize his monologue. But it could be all the Henries saying the same things at the same time. 

I’ll make an analysis on that too soon! This post is already too long, lol

[kiirotoao]

Can we talk about Mileven for a minute. Another reason I don't buy their romantic relationship is the fact that most of their one on ones as a romantic couple (S3) are comedic and not very serious. Where are the deep conversations and when are we ever shown how much they understand each other... post (S2). It's almost like once they started dating they became a joke? Yes they have a few sweet moments but it's also scripted to be laughable. (S4) never showed them having a honest deep convo resolving issues and growing romantically. It could happen in (S5) but at this point I don't see the emotional romantic draw.

And then there is Byler to compare it to, where most of their one on ones are much much more serious, deep, heartfelt, with actual evidence of understanding and talks involving their feelings (which Mike seems to not have an issue with unlike his plot in S4 with El). This, mind you, happens to some degree in every season with Will. If Mike just sees Will as his best friend, why is he so serious about Will especially alone together. Even best friends are more casual then this.

Also a side note. The (S3) Mileven straight stereotype of the 'lazy, lying, clueless boy' dating the 'girl who is playing hard to get to teach her boyfriend a lesson' troupe is icky and makes me want El to find her power solo and Mike to remember that the old Mike (who has a special will voice) is a much better person and boyfriend. Thoughts?

Damn! Well said, dear anon!! I couldn’t agree more.

To anyone who says anything along the lines of ‘oh, Mleven can’t be broken up, they’ve been building up this whole time!’ Or ‘here’s the slow burn everyone wanted,’ or ‘Mike and El have grown so much even after fighting,’ I really don’t understand how any of that is founded. I totally agree and I feel like their relationship has been rather unserious. Even in the most serious love-centered topics of support (s1), connection (s2), breakups (s3), and expression (s4), it’s really interesting to me how their relationship has consistently lacked depth.

Despite dealing with some of the most important aspects of strong relationships, they aren’t close enough to showing, providing, or proving to have one. Mike supports El in season 1 as she does him, protecting and aiding each other with their strengths. But… so does everyone in that season to each other? The only difference is that Mike sheltered El which is very sweet, but not inherently romantic.

Then there’s season 2, which I must confess - I think that their reunion scene at the end of the season remains one of the sweetest moments on the show. Ever. It’s raw and emotional, and this was the closest thing we got to something romantic. But what shoots it down is the fact that their emotion was due to forced separation and Mike’s very real complex grief which gets completely glossed over in the show. So, I don’t know. It’s tricky. So are they romantic yet? They get virtually no time together. It’s a no for me.

And oh yeah, season 3 was the peak of unserious-ness. I also don’t enjoy that trope of ‘the boy chasing the girl who just doesn’t get it yet and she snubs him until the very end’ kind of energy. I swear that that stuff is littered in family-friendly movies usually as comedic relief, and Mike and El just barely made that trope more serious at the very least. Their breakup is dramatized and humorous, and the way that it’s mended still makes me chuckle. Mike offers her M&Ms, compliments her looks, they smile at each other, and suddenly they’re all good again? Yeah, that’s not very clear romance to me. All season long, they keep resisting each other. Mike lashes out to everyone and declares that he loves El but can’t say it to her face, and El has Max’s words tattooed on her heart that she keeps asserting that she deserves trust. The two just don’t quite reach each other that season. The second that I heard Hopper say that they’ve only been kissing all Summer long without complaining about them talking, I knew that I was not going to be invested in their relationship this season.

And so season 4 was truly the nail in the coffin, the final turning point. They’re not only shallow in making up, they’re shallow in being together. El isn’t honest with Mike about her time in Lenora, how she’s spent it, the people she’s met, the fun she’s truly having. Mike snaps about Will being disinterested, so it’s pretty clear that he was dishonest about his true feelings that day, too. And the most telling part is that he’s not mad at El. He’s mad at Will.

I think that what the writers have done is craft something so deeply intricate and hidden with Mike and Will to the point of confusion in much of the audience today. Will has always been a buffer of affection for Mike. In season 1 he’s the one they’re searching for. In season 2, he’s the one that Mike protects. In season 3, he’s the true breakup that Mike fights for. In season 4, he’s the listening ear and bleeding heart that Mike relies on. Their love only gets stronger and stronger whereas Mike and El are simply loving under the guise of physical closeness. I seriously think that that’s all that they have for each other.

That hug sequence at the end of season 4 really shocked me, because when I saw Mike and El hugging (not to mention that shot with Will right between them) I thought that it was sweet, but then suddenly Will and El are hugging, the siblings who are absolutely platonic, and it felt more emotional than Mike and El’s embrace. So not only are Mike and El visually equated to a platonic relationship, but their bond doesn’t even hold the same weight as the sibling-hood of Will and El.

It’s just wild to me that people don’t see it. I think that Byler is made abundantly clear for us to root for. The crazy together scene did it for me the first time I saw it. It was and still is one of my favorite scenes ever because it’s the total package. Closeness? Check. Honesty? Check. Hurt/comfort? Check. Matching, nerdy Halloween outfits? Check. The lack of anyone or anything else to distract them? Check. The crazy together scene is a marker of their relationship, and it never, ever dies.

Even though they fight, where are they years later? They’ve gone through supernatural and personal troubles together, and they’re still by each other’s side. “Friends. Best friends.” The same at heart. They promise to support each other, they reconnect, they come back from every breakup, and they readily express things on their minds and hearts. They’re there for each other and tell each other things that no other boys in the party have told each other.

Mike and El try to understand each other, they do, and sometimes it’s just trying that’s enough, but on a truly intimate level, that’s bullshit. Mike and Will have everything that they need and want for each other, and there’s no going through hoops to get it besides internalized homophobia. Which I very well think can be reasonably addressed next season.

So yep. Byler is endgame.