#and the 1930s Chinese Grammar textbooks

[mejomonster]

Ive been hearimg all about the internet archive lawsuit and my big question is just...

All the 1800-1950 out of print, and out of copyright date, non fiction books... will they be taken down? Because archive.org is a treasure trove for finding pre 1950 and pre 1900 language learning textbooks, ones you cannot find in print to purchase and cannot find in libraries in many countries and if you can its potentially 1 library in one whole country. It is the best place to find old (very old) out of print books, digitally backed up and accessible to many. In the years I've used archive.org for that, some of those books would have check out limits with due dates, and some would be open to view fully on the webpage without checking out.

[rigelmejo]

Tour of Old Language Learning Textbooks

So I find old books fascinating, and I've collected a fair number of old language learning textbooks (from 1800s to 1980s, along with some modern ones).

The Nature Method textbooks teach language in my absolute favorite way of studying, and I wish there were more modern textbooks still teaching in this way (Lingua Latina for Latin is one nature method style textbook still used by some). There are also textbooks in this style found on archive.org and sometimes on youtube for: English, French, Italian, German (incomplete copy found), Latin (as mentioned, multiple volumes, newer versions available for purchase), Greek, and Spanish (Poco a Poco and All Spanish Method part 1 and part 2 are both not written as in-depth in this 'nature method' lesson style, but if you either know a similar language with some cognates like English or French, or have a teacher then they can still be used like the other nature method books), and supposedly there was a Russian version (I've found similarly-made lessons on youtube) but I have not found the old textbook yet. I used the French one to learn most of my basic vocabulary and grammar, and go from reading graded readers to regular novels in French. A warning that some grammar and vocabulary is out of date, and there could be racist undertones in some of the texts, due to the time they were written. I've seen some questionable vocabulary in a couple of them, so just be aware if you use these as a resource of the possibility of those issues.

There is someone who's recently been trying to design a similar 'nature method' learning material for japanese (their first 60ish lessons are edited by a japanese speaker, the later lessons are still being worked on), and I think this person did a fairly good job using emojis for the pictures. A basic understanding of japanese hiragana and katakana is necessary beforehand, along with knowing the language is subject object verb. Unfortunately I think the person has only taught 200-500 words so far, and a material for japanese would probably want to teach 2000-5000 words to get the learner to the point they could try to read other things (which was the official Nature Method's goal - to get learners to B1-B2, at least B1 in speaking and some intermediate level high enough to pick up novels and read to acquire further language).

There's a textbook called Chinese Self-Taught by the Nature Method (NOT actually in the nature method lessons style though) and Chinese Grammar Self Taught by John Darroch, and even though they're from 1930s, the Grammar Self Taught by Darroch is one of my favorite chinese learning books. The book explains radicals and hanzi in a way I found very easy to grasp, and although the grammar and vocabulary has aged (some of it is out of date now) the explanations FOR grammar in the book are very clear and easy to grasp. I've read modern online grammar explanations and like some, understood mostly, but this book's explanations just click well. The book also teaches over 2000 hanzi (I think it might even be 3000 or more - it's in a box right now or I'd check), has a hanzi dictionary in the back (and you can practice searching by strokes), and teaches a bit more vocabulary than that. It's shining point is the grammar explanations, but the clear presentation of hanzi used in those explanations is also nice. Pronunciations for the hanzi are an old system, not the current pinyin system, so if you ever learn from this book then I would recommend knowing common hanzi pinyin already, or at least not trying to learn pronunciations from this book. The hanzi are also traditional, and the biggest initial grammar differences I have seen in the book are le often being written as pronounced 'liao' even when it would be 'le' in most modern sentences, and ni being pronounced as 'nin' far more than it is in modern speech. I purchased a copy of this book years ago on ebay. This book can be found in OpenLibrary, Princeton link: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101067640563&seq=5

Another chinese textbook that's always seemed useful have been the DeFrancis Chinese books, in particular the Beginner Chinese Reader (2 volumes), Intermediate Reader (2 volumes), and Advanced Reader (1 volume). I haven't checked in a while, but recent searches say anecdotally that the Beginner Reader covers 400 hanzi in 1200 combinations (words), Intermediate covers 400, and Advanced covers 400, leaving the learner with 1200 hanzi learned (and 3600 2-hanzi words known, as the books attempt teach a TON of compound words). However some people are saying each book volume contains 400 hanzi taught and 1200 combinations, which would mean 2400 hanzi total taught and 7200 words total. As these books are dense (and I've got them), I'd say they teach closer to the higher amount estimated. I've not completed them, but they are VERY information dense. These books are out of print so buying a physical copy had to be done on abebooks or thriftbooks or ebay, and they often expensive. But there are free pdf copies floating around online if you want to get the digital copy free and browse them. The audio files for the book are also online, from the organization with the rights, so just search 'DeFrancis Beginner Chinese Reader audio files' and you should find them on itunes and the official site for free. These books are extremely dry reading (as some old textbooks are) akin to FSI courses, and they're very repetitive, but they do work and they do suit learners who prefer to learn by reading and reading a LOT to solidify knowledge. You WILL get tons of graded reading practice from the book, pick up tons of words in an organized and structured way, and get reading-review practice built into future chapters so you can simply read a chapter then progress to the next one (instead of constantly needing to review). These books do have some out of date vocabulary, and use traditional characters with only shorter simplified character reading sections at the end. However: if you've learned 1000 characters by now (or intend to) then you know how many simplified and traditional characters overlap, or are the same except for 1 radical being simplified or traditional, and you may be aware that the common hanzi which ARE significantly different in traditional may be worth learning to you if you plan to eventually read both simplified and traditional materials. I buy books from China and Taiwan so learning both is useful to me. (And a fun fact if you're a nerd who explores parallel-text reading options like me: mtlnovels.com is a site to read machine translated webnovels, with the option to display original chinese IN traditional as the only option, and I spent a lot of my first couple years learning chinese using that site to compare Modu by Priest chinese with the MTL and learn new words, since mtl often made mistakes I needed to see the chinese to look up words and get a bit closer to the actual sentences meaning... and the wonderful E Danglars translation of Silent Reading did not exist yet, so I was desperate to read and understand as much of the novel as I could. My point with this anecodote is: you may not realize how useful getting used to both traditional and simplified characters can be - from browsing online sites and not needing to worry, or buying books, or picking shows to watch, texting with people, etc).

For the learners out there who cannot suffer through DeFrancis's dry writing: fair enough, I struggled to as well which is why I never completed the textbooks. The modern Mandarin Companion graded readers are an adequate place for a beginner learner (knowing 50-300 hanzi) to start learning by reading, then you can move on to Sinolingua graded readers (or just get Pleco app and browse graded readers sold through them by unique word count, as Pleco's Reading tools will help you look up words and listen), and then around when you know HSK 4 level vocabulary and grammar (so 1000-1500 hanzi you know, and around that many words) go to Heavenly Path's notion site and browse their beginner recommendations. Around HSK 4 you should be able to start reading easier texts for native speakers, like the 1000-1500 unique words novel recommendations on Heavenly Path's site.

There are some Japanese textbooks made to learn by reading a lot, and by now you may realize I love and prefer to learn by reading. A Japanese Reader: Graded Lessons for Mastering the Written Language (Tuttle Language Library) by Roy Andrew Miller is a beast of an option. Reviews include people mentioning that this book got them to the level of being able to read the news. I am not sure this book has the most extensive vocabulary (compared to what it could have), but it is: intensely informational and condensed to be informational nearly constantly, full of useful information and reading practice, and it does help you improve a LOT. It's not the steady stream of tons of easy material slowly teaching you more words from context that I wish existed more in japanese learning materials (check out the free Tadouku books for that - someone on reddit made 1000 page compilation of many of them in gradually increasing difficulty and it was very useful and enjoyable to read personally, and this site I found recently https://jgrpg-sakura.com/ which has a bit more advanced material and recorded audio and is just a lovely site). But it is a book that prepares you for real reading. I have a personal pet peeve about how some japanese language textbooks teach very little vocabulary or things until you get to intermediate level (I wish each genki volume taught 1000+ words each, instead of the 1700 words total of both volumes... and there's other beginner textbooks that likewise sort of 'slow down' the pace of learning with less material). And so I've found this particular Japanese Reader refreshing for presenting the basics (although you won't have a good time if you start this book as a beginner, it becomes STEEPLY difficult), and also working through all the way to 'functional reading skill of normal japanese texts.' Some people are like me, and have goals of reading as soon as they can, and it's nice when a book that says they'll teach you enough to start reading... actually does.

(I have similar pet peeves with some Chinese books - the college course ones appear to be great and teach 2000 or more words to beginners, but I've seen MANY self-teach chinese books that include only 200-500 words for a beginner... when they are going to need at bare minimum, with much strain and difficulty, 1000 words to even begin to start watching shows and reading very simple webnovels and manhua... or even having simple survival conversations, that's why HSK 4 expects 1200 words known! I think some language teaching companies just think english speakers will give up at the difference in languages, the increase in vocabulary that isn't cognates, and so instead of giving learners all they need to know - and the same amount of information they'd give say a english speaker learning spanish - they instead just design materials that teach less so it doesn't 'feel' like more work. Then the students feel screwed when they finished material labelled 'beginner' just like the spanish learner, only to realize they can do MUCH less and understand much less than the spanish learner who supposedly studied the same level of material - but actually got to study more vocabulary and grammar points. Ignore me... I could go on about my issues with some of the self-learner materials I've found for ages.)

There is also a simpler Japanese Reader textbook, 400 pages each and 2 volumes, that is fairly similar to the DeFrancis chinese reader books in terms of teaching style. I have the pdfs on an old computer, and the hard copy books in a box. I'll need to go look up the author another time (the book title was something very generic like Beginning Japanese and it's 20-30 years old, so newer books show up in searches instead of the books I have). It teaches only 500 kanji per volume, and the first volume mainly goes over how to read hiragana and katakana (and many loan words) with EXTENSIVE practice and repetition. It's designed to make you VERY COMFORTABLE reading japanese and parsing sentences and words, with lots and lots of practice. I'll find what box it's in and post more information on it if anyone is particularly curious for extensive reading practice as a beginner. The print copies sold for 20 dollars a piece when I bought them, and free pdfs can be found online if you search. However: I think if you already have hiragana and katakana grasped at least to a basic degree, the Tadouku free books may be more appealing to you. The Tadouku books are: free, written to be somewhat interesting, use pictures to help you read extensively and look up less, get you used to japanese grammar and sentences, and introduce kanji at a reasonable pace that is easy to get used to.

Finally, Japanese in 30 Hours. Free on archive.org, I also have a print copy. A slim textbook, and an incredibly useful one. Someone also posted the lessons with their own audio recording read through on youtube. What these lessons are: a true basic grammar summary of japanese. This book has some of the usual flaws of japanese lessons made for english speakers: they're entirely in romaji, they include watakushi Wa or X wa as the intro to MOST sentences even though in natural japanese those would often be omitted, the -masu polite form is in most lessons and casual verb forms are only covered in the later lessons, and the distinction between wa and ga seems to not be understood by the author. This book also has some flaws usual of much older textbooks: the grammar is somewhat out of date (arimasen in modern japanese is not used NEARLY as much as this textbook, yoi "good" is now "ii" in modern japanese much more often), and the author has this somewhat racist somewhat touristic somewhat english-centered peculiar way of framing things. I am not sure if at the time it was how an author was supposed to 'make the student entertained' during the lesson, to sell the 'mystique' of learning another language or to try and make another language seem more like english to placate an egotistical learner or what. From a historical standpoint it's interesting to see how differently things were discussed, but from a modern learner perspective it gets in the way and can be frustrating. (I would suspect some other old Japanese textbooks I've found from the late 1800s and 1900-1920s would display similar qualities depending on the authors). The reason this book is useful, despite the romaji only aspect and it's extremely dated way of framing some topics: it truly does tackle covering summarizing basic grammar of VERBS quite well. This books explanation for te-imasu, strings of connected verbs, compound verbs turning into new verb meanings, rareru, sareru, and -shou verb situations, and is still probably the explanation I understand the most when trying to read and understand sentences.

I suspect the modern Tae Kim's Grammar Guide also has good explanations for these, but the explanations are NOT in the beginner section (despite these verb types being SO common in everyday japanese you'll read or hear), and while I like Tae Kim's guide I find the written explanations a bit hard to personally 'get' and usually just rely on the example sentences/translations and compare until I *think* I understand. Like I love that Tae Kim's guide DOES explain difference between wa and ga... and yet I didn't understand his explanation enough to decide when to use wa myself, only that now I grasped the difference between wa 'a topic' (As for students - students in general - I am one) and ga "the thing THAT IS" (THE student - you're looking for specifically - is me). But I still don't know when one would pick to use wa, and why. As for Japanese in Thirty Hours: the rareru and te-imasu explanation really helped me grasp a lot of reading materials where those forms are frequently found. If you do struggle with understanding some verb form explanations, this free book may help you look at the forms in a way you may grasp better. (Or not, everyone is different). The book also has a vocabulary of over 1000 words in the back, and was designed for students to do speaking drills in different sentence patterns, to learn to speak quickly (although in a learner-type way similar to Genki sentences and the 'watashi wa' start). I never learned the vocabulary in the back, and I suspect some of it is out of date while other parts may be useful. Regardless, as it's only romaji, you would likely benefit more from using a hiragana/katakana/kanji resource for vocabulary study.

[rigelmejo]

Some listening resources I’ve been using to various degrees lately:

DeFrancis Chinese Reader audio. the books and audio don’t have English for the most part, but it’s like “graded listening” practice since it starts very simple and matches the book text reading, and introduces and integrates new words, and in general has the learner material benefit of being easy to follow. The audio isn’t great, but I did realize finally listening though it that the audio files do have some notes in them! Like audio file 1 goes over tones and tone pair drills, which I found useful. If you do use these Readers, or want easy background listening, these work well. I’ve been using them lately as background listening practice. It’s good for lots of comprehensible input that varies in difficulty. Again audio is Not great but it’s useable. http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31539&PN=16&TPN=3

Bilinguis - this site has parallel texts in multiple languages which is nice. I’m currently using one of the parallel texts with audio (some have audio recordings). If you Did want to do listening reading method, these setups are ideal. If you want to read with an English parallel for help, also useful. I’ve used this site for French and chinese. It has several books and many languages. It has audio for some.

Bilinguis French Alice in wonderland (with audio): http://bilinguis.com/book/alice/fr/en/c1/

Bilinguis Japanese Alice in wonderland: http://bilinguis.com/book/alice/jp/en/

Bilinguis Chinese Alice in wonderland (simplified, traditional is also available): http://bilinguis.com/book/alice/zh/en/

Bilinguis Chinese Sherlock Holmes: http://bilinguis.com/book/baskerville/zh/en/

FSI courses - they’re free. I’ve been digging into how many words they contain and people seem to suggest the FSI French has 3000 vocab and takes you to B1-B2, the FSI Chinese has 2000-3000 vocab takes you to HSK 3 (if it’s that beginner material wise I’m sad ahh, even tho the vocab count suggests it would go further). There’s also a Japanese course, and many other (I do worry formality standards might make more of a difference in the Japanese course though.. whereas for chinese I know even in my 1930s textbooks a lot remains similar except for a few words, and you still might run into them if you read/watch a lot of things). Also heard complaints that the French course seems to contain very little tu usage despite in modern life tu being used quite often. That said, I’ve been listening to some of them and this is what I’ve been doing with the courses: I just press play on the audios, and progress through them. I do not look at or read the text. Mainly because I’m using them as simple comprehensible listening practice/drills I can do. These courses apparently sometimes have quite useful explanations in text. However as I’m using them, I am just using the audio material - like a replacement for pimsleur. Notes: the audio is not great, again useable though. The Chinese audio sounded a bit worse than DeFrancis audio, but I could still hear tones which is good enough for me. In particular I appreciated the tone drills. the Japanese one sounded fine (but I have clearer Japanese audio resources I use so this is more like reinforcement/drills than initial exposure - for initial pronunciation examples use any modern resource, I like Japaneseaudiolessons.com and Nukemarine’s LLJ memrise course audios and Genki). I haven’t heard the French yet. I heard these courses can feel miserable if you hate dry language, drills - so I can’t say how using a full course feels. But for drilling audio practice only? To me these feel the same as pimsleur except I feel I am sometimes covering more vocab per section than in pimsleur (which is pimsleurs weakest point to me - not enough vocab). I’ve only listened to a few Chinese audio lessons of FSI so far but things I do like about it - it mentions English translation in the audio enough you can listen to it without a book, it has a whole pronunciation section, tone pair drills, uses dialogue to introduce new info, and explains some grammar and usage points in the lesson (which some audio only resources do not do). When it presents vocab lists it also mentions the English translation so again you can rely on audio alone like me if desired. It reminds me of a combo of Genki opening dialogues, pimsleur drills, and then a little grammar explanation and word definitions. Dry as a textbook lol but useable. The benefit here over DeFrancis Reader audios, is the DeFrancis audios have very little English translation of the material so you either learned it already or you’re drowning unless you can recognize on your own the new words and guess them from context - so to learn NEW material you’d want the book or an outside resource. The audio is definitely book dependent or else it’s just practice for you. In contrast, the FSI audios seem to be useful even used on their own because they provide enough info.

FSI Chinese: https://fsi-languages.yojik.eu/languages/FSI/fsi-chinese-mandarin.html

FSI Basic French (a note there’s other French courses): https://fsi-languages.yojik.eu/languages/FSI/fsi-french-basic.html

FSI Japanese headstart: https://fsi-languages.yojik.eu/languages/FSI/fsi-japanese.html#

DLI Language Courses - also free online, also old with iffy audio. Also probably good for listening practice of easier materials and drilling. Downsides I noticed with the Chinese version: not a lot of English definitions in the audio so it may require a book to follow if you don’t already know the words, audio is also the worst quality of these resources (though Listening is doable if you desire to use them). Like DeFrancis audio these seem to teach new material best if you’re using the book in combo. I am guessing unlike the Defrancis books, the DLI books have more English explanations (DeFrancis Reader books are also mostly in chinese and you learn through context, they just have some word definitions and key things highlighted in each chapter before having you extensively read). I listened to the DLI chinese and probably won’t use it again since it doesn’t suit my needs, but I could see it being useful to someone. If using the books too (unlike me) then DLI is better for covering 500 hanzi, when the FSI Chinese course is entirely pinyin (with DeFrancis of course being best with a ton of Hanzi and words and extensive reading in Hanzi).

DLI Chinese Mandarin: https://fsi-languages.yojik.eu/languages/DLI/DLI-Chinese-Mandarin.html

Cours de Langue et de Civilisation Françaises by G. Mauger - 3 volumes seem to go to at least B2 which is nice. I found audio of it on YouTube and it’s exactly like what I was looking for. It teaches French in French, so similar to Français Par Le Method Nature book I like. In fact this textbook looks a lot like an “easier” version of the nature method textbooks (easier meaning it’s all in the target language with pictures and short dialogues, where as more intensive nature method textbooks would be Lingva Latina and Le Français Par Le Method Nature where it has some pictures but immediately dives into paragraphs and chapters of text in the language where the writing gives you context to learn most new words and grammar within these readings - it does not limit itself to small dialogues and necessary definitions to look up). When you look up the nature method style textbooks, you’ll find ones like this French one (and Poco a Poco for Spanish). And you’ll find more in depth ones occasionally like Lingva Latina. This textbook might go more in depth later though. What I do like about this as an audio resource: I found it on YouTube with the text in video, and it’s a good way to get some simple pronunciation with comprehensible input. The vocab ans way it presents itself matches up well with Le Français Par le Method Nature book, and the big weak spot I had with that book is NO audio to go with it. So seeing a presentation of similar material, with the same “English approximate pronunciation guide” under the words as the Method Nature book uses, is helping me get an idea how pronunciation corresponds to that guide. And just in general I need more clear basic textbook pronunciation drills and examples ToT. If you look up the book and or audio yourself, you may be able to find it as it’s old enough. I would say the audio is hard to use it completely on its own since this entire thing is in French. But that’s nice for listening. https://youtu.be/EN9UB64e02M

UPDATE SOMEONE HAS A REFERENCE PAGE OF COMPREHENSIBLE INPUT LANGUAGE MATERIALS! https://github.com/IvanovCosmin/awesome-natural-approach

Of particular note:

Français par le Method Nature AUDIO (Im so happy right now this is literally EXACTLY what I wanted! I didn’t think it existed): https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLf8XN5kNFkhdIS7NMcdUdxibD1UyzNFTP

Poco à Poco Spanish audio (a simpler but nice nature method textbook for spanish - the text itself is on archive.org): https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLf8XN5kNFkhe4D2BPBKaUb2JvDHuzAGPI

Learn Italian by the nature method audio (another book written by the person who made the Français Method Nature book, I also love this one, so to see it has AUDIO I am so happy!): https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLf8XN5kNFkhfQonvCySTrKEUV742WzshJ

[rigelmejo]

so im basically learning traditional characters partly on accident, cause i keep reading the raws on mtlnovel.com and all of the ones i read are in traditional with english mtl. also cause i am a nerd who bought a textbook from like the 1930s for chinese cause i was curious, and well of course that book is all in traditional. anyway took me seeing ‘zhe ge’ like 20 times in a row in that textbook before i finally realized i knew what it said... ge is pretty easy to recognize in its traditional form, so is zhe i just... expected the wen like-character radical, not the ‘speech’ like radical. i forgot they did that alteration for the simplified form. 

the ‘me’ in shen me i also took a while to figure out... cause the book gave it the pinyin ‘mo’ cause pinyin back then 1. was not standardized or the current model, and 2. the traditional character me look a tiny bit like the demon ‘mo’ character so i figured it was supposed to be ‘mo’. anyway i finally recognized it and remembered i did in fact know what ‘me’s traditional form looked like... i’m just a fool who took a while to remember.

i mean... mostly i only intend to purposely study the simplified. but if i pick up recognition of some traditional characters then thats fine. i got a comic coming in traditional cause i DIDN’T READ the description, and also because i really wanted the comic and i’m not sure if it comes in simplified anyway.

---

Anyway, in other news I looked up methods to learn chinese. And guess what it all boiled down to again, in the end:

1. read those hanzi reference books, just DRILL them, just get on with it, you NEED 2,000-4,000 characters to read like you want to, so just do it. Alternatively (or in addition), drill the HSK hanzi/vocab lists, drill on an SRS flashcard set (anki or memrise), and maybe drill on hanzicraft once you get pretty far into it (https://hanzicraft.com/lists/frequency ). And because I hate flashcards with an intense passion... the easiest thing for me is just going to be to read through the hanzi reference books, then second step would be to read through my high-frequency word book (and look through the HSK vocab to make sure I’m covering it too). 

Alternatively, my best bet would be to DRILL through a hanzi reference book, then WORK ON SRS flashcards (my memrise deck) WHILE reading through my high-frequency word books. The srs flashcards would be to keep practicing/familiarizing myself with hanzi and frequent words while drilling through books. 

2. read graded readers, listen to audio, shadow. listen to more audio. write down or note words you get stuck on. look up new words.

3. watch shows without english subtitles. look up new words. 

4. if you run into a lot of grammar issues, read through another grammar guide.

although... at the moment my initial grammar grind seems to have paid off... the last time i struggled with grammar was upon trying to read MoDaoZuShi the first time. There were so many words AND grammar i had no idea how to interpret even with a dictionary. SINCE then grammar has become incrementally more comprehensible and so far the few times grammar has confused me, i’ve been able to work it out using the context. So I think I’ll probably just read a grammar guide much later on, once i have a much bigger vocabulary, just to reinforce good habits and good understanding. I’m going to probably read Modern Mandarin Chinese Grammar, since that book is often recommended.