#and not making the show with the express intent to undermine loki. bc the show wasn't just bad. it was actively malicious

[iamnmbr3]

the moment when you realize an ai would've written a better larry show than mike waldron bc an ai would've been trained on previous loki content and thus, unlike mike, would've actually watched the films

[iamanartichoke]

Oh man.. I went to see endgame again and I want to like Thor in this movie I really do and am worried I'm a bad person for not but like, the tone feels all over the place with him, like the tragedy undercuts the humour but then the humour disrespects the tragedy. I can't get my head around this creative decision. What do you think?

First of all, you’re not a bad person for not liking Thor in this film. The negative reaction to how Thor is portrayed is pretty widespread, especially on Tumblr, and a lot of people share your opinion that his character was handled poorly. 

I ... *sighs* Here’s the thing. My immediate/general reaction was something like being stunned and second-hand embarrassed for Thor and really upset at the portrayal, because it really, really does feel like the narrative is framing Thor’s very real PTSD as a joke. Playing it up for laughs when there’s nothing funny about that level of loss and grief. 

I felt it was disrespectful, that it undermined not only Thor but those of us who suffer from mental illness and have unhealthy coping mechanisms. I felt like depression was being made fun of, like trauma was being made fun of, like weight gain/generally showing how far a person can sink into depression where they can’t take care of themselves was being made fun of. Furthermore, I have been especially furious that despite his trauma, Thor didn’t mention Loki even once, even when acknowledging literally everything else he’s lost besides Loki (family, Asgard, Jane). 

But. 

Everyone knows, because I have been obsessing about it for days, that I’ve discovered some really, really good during/post-Endgame Thor fic. Fic that manages to strike the balance between what we saw on-screen and what’s going on in Thor’s head. I have found fic that somehow manages to reconcile the two, showing how deep Thor’s trauma runs while still being consistent to what was portrayed on-screen. 

And in finding myself not only empathizing with Fic!Thor, but also feeling very protective of him and generally loving toward him, it also made me admit to myself that, when I watched Endgame, it was like two days before the release and I was watching a really shitty cam rip, where I missed 75% of what was really happening, due to poor sound and visual quality. 

So, tonight, I went back and rewatched it. Not in the theatre but I found a better cam version on Putlocker, with much better sound and video. I tried to be open-minded. And I had no idea how much I missed, when it came to Thor’s microexpressions and mannerisms and even what he was saying half the time. Watching it in better quality along with having the fics in my head has kind of ... brought me to an understanding of it, I think? In a way that I’m no longer furious about it, because I can sort of get behind the creative decision to show Thor just completely deteriorating and becoming something like an entirely different person than what he’s been before. Because mental illness and trauma do do that to a person. And I do think that it was a bold, but not necessarily a wrong, decision to go the opposite way in portraying the illness than what is usually shown in media. Usually, in films and tv, traumatized, depressed people are portrayed as stoic, and usually really thin, and scowly and brooding.

Thor in Endgame as a concept is taking that expectation and subverting it and showing the other end of the spectrum: that sometimes you are smiling and joking even though it’s an act, that you’re laughing on the outside while a weight is pressing down on you on the inside, that drinking to excess can cause weight gain, that eating as a coping mechanism can cause weight gain, that not caring about life can mean not caring about yourself and you don’t necessarily notice that it’s been a week since you washed your hair and two years since you cut it and what does it matter anyway, because you’re not going anywhere or doing anything or trying to impress anybody, you’re just putting one foot in front of the other and trying to make it through day by day until the universe finally decides to take pity on you and you die. 

And I get that, because I’ve been there, because a lot of people have been there, because it’s a very real, uncomfortable, visceral portrayal of someone who has just completely broken down - mentally, physically, emotionally. 

That all said - I understand the intention better now than I did before, but I do think that it fell flat. Instead of really delving into these things, the narrative played it like we were supposed to laugh at Thor. Not a single person, except for Bruce, asked Thor if he was okay. No one acknowledged that Thor might not be up for this mission. No one acknowledged that even if the snap was reversed, Thor will still have lost everything and he doesn’t get anything back. 

Thor is very visibly breaking down, and the others just roll with it. Worse, they make fun of him, what with the way they look at him and the way they act toward him and Rhodey’s stupid “cheeze whiz” joke. The narrative supports this view, especially with camera shots that emphasize Thor’s weight and general disheveled appearance. And the version I watched today was still filmed in a theatre, so I was able to hear all the places where the audience just laughed, even when Thor was obviously in pain and obviously needed sympathy rather than mockery. It smacks of fat shaming and general mental health shaming. And that’s not okay. 

I feel ... more generous toward Chris Hemsworth’s performance than I did before. On a second, closer viewing, I do think that his facial expressions and his delivery of his lines did show someone who was in deep pain, especially when it came to Thanos specifically (his change in demeanor when Bruce says his name, the way he begs to wear the gauntlet and “do something right,” the way he approaches Thanos in the final battle, among other moments). 

I also think, though, that Chris may have gotten too into the comedic aspect of it, too, and that probably contributed to Thor in general being played for laughs. Because Chris likes to laugh, and have fun, and screw around, and he’s said so himself. I think if Chris had a better understanding of mental illness than I assume he does, he might have been more willing to delve further into the emotional side and relied less on the comedic side. And if Chris wasn’t so anti-Loki, then I think we would have had a lot more acknowledgement of how much Loki’s death has contributed to Thor’s grief and mental state. 

Idk. It could have been better. The fics are better. But at the same time, I do get it now more than I did before. I’m not really crediting the Russos with that, bc they’re trash, but I do give Chris Hemsworth and his acting more credit than I did. And honestly, I give the fic writers credit bc reading them forced me to consider my point of view and whether or not I was looking at Thor too critically due to my general hatred of everything the Russos touch. 

So, yeah. Overall, it’s ... a complicated thing. I don’t think I’ll ever be okay with it, but I’m not so anti it either, anymore. If that makes sense. 

I didn’t mean to write you a dissertation, Anon, so I’m sorry for the length. This has actually been on my mind for several days, though, so I kind of hopped on this ask and took it as an opportunity to write all of this out. I hope it makes sense. I hope people can understand where I’m coming from. And even if you can’t, please don’t @ me, I’m very tired. 

Anyway. Yeah. So that’s what I think. I hope this somewhat answered the question. XDD 

[iamnmbr3]

still not over the interview where he didn't even know that loki killed laufey even tho it was a pivotal character moment for him. or how neither he nor kate seem to get that the sylki romance could be read as selfcest or incest bc they thought it was just like miles/gwen bc they didn't realize  “loki” is a name not a title. so sylki isn't like miles/an alternate spider person. it's like miles/an alternate miles.

I genuinely think Mike Waldron is the worst writer I have ever come across. his lack of talent is truly staggering. Not that the others like Eric Martin are much better. Still wild to me that he basically copy pasted his abominable og script and changed a few names and no one cared, Ir that he could get away with openly messing up basic facts about the character in interviews and showing he never even watched the movies.

(Btw the point here is to show how abysmally poor the quality of the Larry show was. not to advocate for ai writing). Mike just couldn't even clear that very low bar. the answer is not ai. the answer was hiring actually competent writers.

And to not make the show with the express intent to undermine loki. bc the show wasn't just bad. it was actively malicious

the moment when you realize an ai would've written a better larry show than mike waldron bc an ai would've been trained on previous loki content and thus, unlike mike, would've actually watched the films