#and i think this was because of what veilguard actually is

[ode-to-fury]

Thinking about post veilguard rookanis like I always am and today I'm mulling over Illario and Caterina's reactions because like... there's been very many discussions about whether Caterina would like/dislike accept/not accept Rook and I don't think it's that simple. I think at first she assumes it's casual like it's always been for Illario because surely Lucanis wouldn't be that stupid? Surely he wouldn't fall in love and give himself that big of a weak spot? And then... Rook sticks. They get engaged, they're planning a wedding, Rook is already helping with First Talon things and it seems like that is actually the one thing making it bearable for Lucanis. And how the fuck is she supposed to handle that? Her poor little boy... is Rook good enough to stay alive for him? Should she kill Rook now to avoid heartbreak in future? Lucanis... what have you done?

And then Illario... man what would Illario think? Here is his cousin who has never shown any interest in the myriad of people Illario has seen show interest in him (because lets face it Lucanis is a handsome man there had to have been some Crows going 👀👀) so of course when Rook happens he probably thinks like oh it's a first love infatuation thing I remember when that happened to me. Three months from now I'll have the old Lucanis back and then... thag doesn't happen? Rook is a Dellamorte now. For so long it's only been the three of them and now... Cousin, you're really in love? I just like thinking about the idea that both of them don't really click how deeply Rookanis care for each other until it's way too late to do something about it

[hemlock-dreams]

HEMLOCK!!! Have you been playing Dragon Age? You said you'd be MIA because if it. And. Bro. I'm so fucking obsessed with DA. My two biggest obsessions: Dragon Age and Spiderman. If YOU love DA you GOTTA tell me who your favorite character is. And your thoughts on Solas. And Veilguard. And Rook. And Varric. And have you finished the game. And-

I'm sorry I'm so obsessed with this.

Anyway, I want to take your Spidey to freaky town. (What would his reaction be to another Spider popping up? Like Miles or Miguel?)

Yes! Played Veilguard! Been a long time Dragon Age fan, but I don't think that game was quite for me!

In the meantime:

Peter and Miguel would actually make a really good team up.

And because I'm a degenerate at heart: SPICY

[kaija-rayne-author]

Do whatever you want, believe whatever you want. And using Veilguard as any sort of source for anything remotely related to canon Lore is just ridiculous. It's so... awful, IMHO, to use it to defend any sort of point.

I'm not certain if this would be considered critical, so I'll put it under a cut. Potentially critical of Veilguard.

Though I'm really just talking about the Lore.

I point out 4 massive retcons in Veilguard that blew my mind and that I see people commonly using as arguing points. And yes, if someone wants to pay me for the time, I can prove all of it with sources.

What little canon Lore they actually used in Veilguard? They twisted beyond recognition.

Just a few examples.

1. The blight is NOT, in fact, (or even in Veilguard) 'everywhere in the Fade'. It has always been contained to the Black City, that floats disconnected from everything else in the Fade. It's why the previously golden city is black ffs! Even in Veilguard, it's really damned obvious that the Fade isn't full of blight. We hop in and out of the Fade throughout the whole damned game like it's a shopping mall.

2. The Fade is not full of demons. Demons are spirits (people) of emotion. What usually twists them into demons is coming through the veil! The only reason there was the big demon in DAI is because it was attached to Coryphyfish. There's probably some, but it's an arguable point that an emotion spirit of, say, anger, or spite is actually a demon. Emotions aren't bad. They wouldn't automatically be demons simply because they reflect a negative emotion.

3. The veil has been canonically choking the life and magic out of Thedas for thousands of years. If the veil didn't come down, there would be no Thedas. This is clearly spelled out in canon. The veil was never meant to be part of the world. At the end of Trespasser, the veil is as holey as my grandmother's doilies. It's not as they tried to depict it in Veilguard, a firm, whole wall holding hordes of demons and the blight of blights back. That's such a bullshit retcon, and I make weird faces every time I try to figure out the mental gymnastics necessary for someone to come up with that idea.

4. It's also a massive retcon that Solas lies. (Sigh. Yes. It really is. No matter what you believe.) He canonically does not. They rewrote his character for DAI so that he doesn't lie because it weakened the character. He was originally written as much more similar to Blackwall. They decided it weakened Solas as a character and made sure he doesn't lie. He obfuscates, misleads, doesn't answer, and is really good at letting people make assumptions or even leading people to make assumptions. Because that is what a Trickster does! But in all of DAI and Trespasser, he does not lie except once. At the Winter Palace when you ask him where he got the experience of court. No. A 'lie of omission' is not a lie by the definition or philosophical understanding of what a lie is. You, as the player, not paying close attention to what he says doesn’t mean he lies either! He is not the 'god of lies'. That's Epler's hate shining through. Throughout 3 games, many dlcs, books, comics, short stories, the Dread Wolf is known as the Trickster. The god of rebellion and sometimes the god of betrayal. He is never once referred to as the god of lies in anything pre-veilguard. It's. Bullshit.

And Solas is an absolutely terrible liar. He stumbles all over himself trying to do it in the winter palace. It's hilarious tbh.

There were more retcons. But I need to go help with dinner.

Just, even if you liked Veilguard, don't use it as a defense in any sort of discussion of Lore. Perhaps listen to us Lore fiends, instead? Because they shat all over the Lore for Veilguard.

Real talk? It makes you look ignorant to anyone who actually has been paying attention to the Lore.

FWIW? I'm not in the best of moods right now. Please think twice, then a third time before responding/reblogging in disagreement. (Unless you're polite and actually have sources I haven't seen. I'm usually willing to have polite discussions or answer questions. I'm also willing to stand corrected if people actually can prove me wrong with sources attached. A 'nuhn unh, Solas lies cause I believe he does', won't get you far with me.) Nor will using anything from DAV to support an argument. I've relegated DAV to the graveyard of not-canon because of the complete disrespect of the Lore.

And I'll just laugh at you if you try to attack me. Internet randos filling my responses with shit doesn't phase me, bother me in the slightest, or make me upset. I find it incredibly, laugh out loud amusing because I've lived through so much more than that in my life.

[angrykittybarbarian]

I am just a little bit annoyed how everyone is comparing Bioware to Larian....

Not because I think we should be too lenient towards Bioware. God and everyone who follows me on this site knows how massively disappointed I am with Veilguard and that I am not expecting them to deliver on the next Mass Effect.

And Larian has done an outstanding job with BG3.

However: the praise Larian has gained also served to show how low expectations in the gaming industry were. I read and hear time and time again how Larian supposedly has set a new standard in gaming but they actually didn't?

What have they done? They released a finished well written and well rounded RPG. An RPG with diverging story branches and player choices with consequences.

Do you notice something? THIS IS NOT REVOLUTIONARY, PEOPLE!

A revolution by defintion entails a course of action that is entirely new and a complete break from what was done before. Larian did not do that. They simply fulfilled the PRE-EXISTING criteria for an RPG. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yet, since standards have appearantly fallen so low in the respective genre, everyone acts like adhering to the working definition of an RPG and selling a complete product is somehow revolutionary. Literally nothing about that is new. It should be standard.

And it breaks my heart everytime someone compares Bioware to Larian in this regard.

No, before you come at me, not because I want to defend and protect them. They 10000% deserve all the backlash (minus the death threats) they are recieving. But because Baldur's Gate was originally a Bioware IP to begin with.

Larian did not do anything revolutionary. They built on what Bioware has already established. And you feel the old Bioware DNA even in BG3.

You feel it in the characters, their stories and personalities, the dialogue. They brought back old characters like Minsc and Jaheira. My heart breaks a little more everytime I feel these pieces of OG Bioware. Like echoes of an era long gone, only to realize it is not Bioware.

I feel its spiritual proximity to DAO. Sometimes the combat music even reminds me of DAO combat music. I briefly think I am playing my Warden before I snap out of it and see my sorceress Tav between Astarion and Karlach. And my heart breaks.

Boo, Minsc's hamster, was originally referenced by Shepard having a hamster when the player decided to purchase one. Shepard's hamster made the same noises as Boo in BG2 and Shepard even used Minsc's signature line in regards to him "Go for the eyes." in the Citadel DLC.

Now Minsc says Boo is a miniature giant SPACE hamster and I tear up because I instantly think of Shepard and my heart breaks. Breaks but also warms because Larian thought it was important to still honor the original inventor of Baldur's Gate with a Shepard reference in return.

To sum it up: it is so frustrating to see people comparing Bioware to a developer studio that was conforming to standards implemented by Bioware to begin with.

[solavellan--hell]

Something about Veilguard Solavellan that has been occupying my brain recently is the Inquisitor telling Rook that Solas may have purposefully left breadcrumbs for her to follow and stop him.

In case you have not seen it (it requires picking the emotional dialogue option), here is the full dialogue:

(Obviously spoilers for that interaction)

Inquisitor: He let me fall in love with him and then told me we couldn’t. Then, he told me not to follow while leaving me just enough clues to find him.

Rook: Hold on. You think he wanted you to stop him?

Inquisitor: His name is Solas. It means “Pride”. Perhaps he couldn’t change his mind himself, and hoped that someone else could help him. Or maybe I’m the prideful one, imagining his broken heart so that I never have to face my folly.

I actually really like this as a concept. But I feel like it was not actually implemented and it is a missed opportunity.

Yes, the main evidence for this would be Solas appearing as a wolf in Lavellan’s dreams. But that is not really a clue. I think it would have been so much more impactful to see mentions of Solas leaving actual clues for Lavellan to follow during the years she was after him, referencing their relationship or knowledge of each other, so that only she would pick them up. Telling her, once again, that his feelings would never change. Asking her, “if you really think there is another way, if you think I am worth your redemption, please come find me.”

Solas might seem so single-minded in trying to tear down the veil in Veilguard, that his internal conflict can be extremely easy to miss until the ending. That is because he fully operates within the persona of the Dread Wolf. He knows he cannot afford to show weakness this time around. But we know that his duty fueled by regret and responsibility conflicts his own wants by the end of Inquisition.

We know this from the non-romanced high approval redemption ending in Trespasser. In response to “You do not need to destroy this world. I will prove it to you” he says, “I would treasure the chance to be wrong again, my friend”. And he genuinely means it.

So, do I think it is possible he wanted Lavellan to find him and at least try to change his mind? Perhaps. Maybe his letter to her was a replacement of what he planned to say to her before the first ritual attempt. Maybe he wrote it just before the ritual, because he realized she would not be coming for him.

It’s a fun idea to explore, but they could have expanded on it better if they wanted it to be solid. Maybe they left it purposefully vague for players to decide whether they wanted it to be a thing or not, but still. A few more debatable points of potential evidence would have been nice, so that if you wanted it to be a thing you would have something to base it on.

[sorry-i-forgot]

I think the biggest thing that speaks to me about Veilguard is... I haven't touched it since I finished it.

Almost any game I've ever played that I've enjoyed, truly enjoyed, I've played at least twice if not more. It's actually a terrible habit of mine to have a bunch of saves that I haven't completed because I adore the game so much that I want to experience it over and over again.

Inquisition, Baldur's Gate 3, Destiny, Transistor, Skyrim, Stardew Valley, Witcher 3, I could keep going. The point is Veilguard couldn't deliver on the one thing that makes me love games and that's replayability. All the incentive of making a new character, making different choices, is gone because there's barely any choices to be made. So little reward for choosing a different companion to romance because the formula is the exact same for every single one. Restarting feels more like a struggle to the finish line. I dread the first six hours of gameplay because the dialogue is like nails on a chalkboard stale and stilted. I honestly dread character creation because the backstories are pretty much the same and I don't want to edit my Inquisitor and their choices every time. (Don't get me started on aesthetics.) The fact that the last three games I've sunk hundreds of hours into means NOTHING to Veilguard. That every beloved NPC from previous better games is reduced to whatever plot point serves the weak narrative.

What is there in Veilguard actually worth seeing again myself that I can't just watch a clip of on YouTube and be done with it? I look back at the roughly 80 hours it took for me to finish the game and think that I could've just made a new save on Inquisition and had a way better time. At the end of it all... I can't help but grieve for the game we could've had.

[anoia]

Finished Veilguard

Overall it just felt like dropping a beautiful cake on the ground. I can imagine actual Dragon Age flavored stories for all the characters in Vielguard. It's a pity this just wasn't a dragon age game at the end of the day- something I was very resistant to thinking and DIDN'T think until after the end of Act 1.

The game opens with gorgeous and impressive scenes of out of control magic, Varric gets stabbed and Solas is a dick, and then sends you right into a horrific looking blighted village. The plucky elf girl is, surprisingly, the one who wants you to pick the unmerciful option of killing the cowardly mayor. I'm like DUDE literally what are people talking about, this is so Dragon Age! But yeah, I feel like that Bellara moment was maybe grafted on late in production or something, because a companion asking you to kill someone that's not a literal evil demon is not a thing that happens during the rest of the game, not even close.

It's just sad because I can easily imagine Dragon Age versions of all the storylines and characters. I can see the bones of interesting, hard choices you might have to make. It's not like you'd have to make a super different game or need BG3 amounts of choices and alternate outcomes. So it just made me feel mostly sad in the end.

They did let me crack the egg at the end which I appreciated, but that was sort of the only moment of real catharsis. The end of a story from a previous game lol. And I was genuinely surprised by the twist and I was sad(good sad)! But again, that was because of a previous game lol... I like the new characters, but never got super attached to any new character because every character is basically the same. The companion quests got so tiring because they only had like surface level differences. Idk I have a lot of feelings about how many feelings I didn't have during the game :[

[mythalism]

Here's the thing, I don't think we're supposed to take the Flemythal death memory as a retcon (or at least I've decided not to) but rather as a representation of how twisted Solas’s regret memories are, and how far his perception has wandered from reality. This is even hinted at by fragment Mythal!

We actually saw the cutscene in DAI, so we literally know that isn't how it went, so what is happening? Well, Solas is subconsciously using the moral authority figure he respects the most as a means to argue with himself about whether he should bring down the veil or not. I've always had the strong impression that, at least with high-approval Trespasser and Veilguard, that he really hated having to go through with it. He felt like it was his duty sure, which is why he tries it, but it's not something that feels morally right to him. Therefore, he twists the memory of Flemythal's death in his mind, when in reality she offered no resistance to him at all. Only Morrigan knows what she actually thought now, and maybe not even her.

Frankly, it's funny to me that the Veilguard accepted Solas’s memories as absolute truth at all. Emmrich at least should have been aware of how perception and emotion can twist these things in the Fade.

this is a really good point and interpretation. accepted. i agree that a lot of mythal in veilguard could have been explained away in a hypothetical later game as manipulation . it was hard to tell if it was sloppy character writing or if it was intentional character vagueness and lying because so many other things were sloppily written that it made it hard for me to have faith. i love when she calls solas's mural memories "a tree stretching to reach the sun" or something like that... fucking brutal. idk if it was truly the writers intention or if they were truly retconning but it doesnt matter anymore so cheers!

[manyfrance]

okay 2:30am Basset musing time but - hot take, Veilguard is absolutely depressing.

by the conclusion of DAtV the world has it ROUGH. most (if not all) of Southern Thedas is thought lost, Minrathous is pretty much completely blighted, one of two major cities has been destroyed by a dragon, and I don't even know how the other Northern locations faired once end game hit. entire governments are probably crippled and without leadership and while the game ends on hope and a "yay we saved the world" cut scene, if you think about it, it's pretty bleak.

compare that to what might have happened had Solas succeeded in tearing down the veil at the start of the game. we don't know the full consequences, but honestly? could it have been worse than what actually happened in canon?

okay yes it probably could have but still.

the entire plot of Veilguard - the villains, the high stakes, all of it - happen because of Rook messing with the ritual, leading to unintended consequences. we still win in the end, good triumphs over evil, but really nothing changes to make the world state of Thedas even slightly more positive (or negative, if you could have chosen) than before. unlike every other Dragon Age game before it, you haven't been able to influence the future of the world with your choices.

we're just left with a broken continent and honestly i can't help but think that Solas was right. people are always dying, and maybe his way would have been better.

[thedissonantverses]

I think that’s what floors me is the goal post is always getting moved for Veilguard. If you point out there is conflict they’ll tell you it’s either not good enough or that they “should have” been able to yell at Taash. It’s always Taash. The reason why is exhausting.

I’m sorry but the “conflicts”. I’m okay with say Davrin not calling Neve a bitch like Alistair does to Morrigan in Origins. It was such 2000’s writing. I don’t actually think people want that back I think just want to hold it against VG. Like no I don’t want a mage yelling at a former slave branded with lyrium for not liking magic back actually that wasnt a good time. I can go play DA2 for that.

It astounds me that people resolving conflicts like how adults solve conflicts is seen as immature when it’s the most mature the series has been, especially with interpersonal relationships. I’m an adult. I like it when other adults act like adults actually. That is interesting when people set aside their petty bullshit to save the world. Because we seem to have a real hard time understanding that last bit.

There’s this notion that what Veilguard is missing is team conflict and unlikeable characters. I think it’s great if someone likes that, and there are a ton of games which cater to this. Honestly, I get the dynamic; I’ve played an unhealthy amount of BG3 last year.

Full disclosure: I’m 30 and have been in different fandoms for half my life. There’s a very special way these unlikeable characters are portrayed by the player base and fandoms. A man who commits unfathomable violence or outright betrays the protagonist is portrayed as a sad little boo-boo and somehow rarely gets singled out as unlikeable. The “annoying” character is often female, queer, or black, or some combination of these. They’re absolutely loathed by everyone. Sometimes these characters don’t even need to say anything really offensive; sometimes it’s enough to be slightly rude to the player.

This is something I find boring and disheartening at this point in my life.

It isn’t even that there is no conflict between companions in Veilguard. But the revolutionary concept Veilguard uses is that the characters act like adults regarding these feelings. Neve or Lucanis come back after their city is destroyed. Taash and Emmrich work through Taash’s feelings regarding necromancy. Davrin and Lucanis also work it out.

There is conflict; you just can’t dismiss a character because they rub you the wrong way. There is no “bad guy” in these situations. No character is designed to be disliked or to be annoying, which also means bigotry is much more obvious regarding Veilguard.

[mohntilyet]

rook being such a nobody and surrounded by more influential companions right after the obviously well known inquisitor could be really cool actually. that conversation w solas 'what will they call you after this is done' <- NO FUCKING CLUE LOL!! the idea that this millennia long, world-ending story of gods and a herald being controlled for a moment by a nobody is incredible. they start as an irritant and end having saved the world. nobody thanks them. they go back home. maybe they're literally wiped off the face of the world when they're trapped in the fade with the dread wolf! and most of all, their name is not remembered. literally, because they become a 'rook' to the inquisitor's king.

like i’m actually really liking the idea that the inquisitor and rook get conflated into the same person by the public and by history, and what little agency they had is taken away. you were never in control of this story. your narrative will be written by other people, just like every figurehead that came before you. you are not the chosen one. the choice to have faded out and see the irrelevancy as a boon, or struggle to make your name known (not rook, not the nickname, not the title) would have been so. interesting.

veilguard is a heroic story (and the game doesn’t even let you be rude most of the time) that has to end heroically (the evanuris are defeated in some way, the last archdemon dies, and most rooks climb down from minrathous to literal cheers and applause) but the hero themself is forgettable. narratively that could have been so funnnn. but it wasn’t on purpose so it just feels hollow.

[thimblings]

get with the Crow-gram, Davrin

[vaguely-concerned]

on the one hand I think inner demons could stand to have a bit more romanced rook specific content, but on the other hand the underlying in-built implication that 'yours is the one true voice of comfort and safety in my inner world' is a sentiment and intimacy so way beyond the romantic or the platonic or any secret third thing you could care to name that it makes me lose my entire poor little mind a bit. it's so big and fundamental — near-existential — that in that exact moment at least the distinctions kind of seem irrelevant.

all the people lucanis' mind conjures up along the way are relationships he has that are unavoidably mixed and fraught in some ways even when they're also full of love (they are fraught BECAUSE they're full of love) — the good in them inseparable from things that hurt him at the same time. (it's about: the basic disorganized attachment patterns this poor guy is dragging around with him. careful with those, they're dellamorte heirlooms. what you love also inevitably hurts you and you won't be allowed to have one without the other, you have to surrender parts of your soul to hold on to what little you have left: this is the story up until now.) and the idea that rook isn't that to him — that beneath the fear of wanting them when romanced (which is more its own separate thing because within this psychology, actively wanting something and not just clinging on for dear life to even a meager status quo lest you lose it is in itself dangerous bordering on catastrophic), this is a relationship where there isn't resentment, or guilt, or shame, or dread, or rage, or self-hate, or any of the other emotions that keep him paralyzed, unable to move this way or that. no debts, nothing owed of yourself and your soul's substance except what you can freely and safely and happily give. love and freedom don't coexist — but, I mean, you're almost starting to make me think........... unless...👀👀👀. the unconditional and undramatic 'you are here and I am here with you, you can be exactly how you are right now with me and it's safe for us both even though you're afraid it won't be, I'm not going anywhere' acceptance rook shows him here that he returns to them in the big romance scene, when it's rook who needs it. the way he's just. standing there in the center of it all, like a child desperately helplessly waiting to be found, hiding in the place he hopes you'll know to look first. (rook does know. it's one of the first things they say in there.)

in short the most important room in his little mind palace for the romance is the very first room — the one where rook isn't. where, in fact, rook cannot be, because they disprove the entire structure of the place with their existence and presence in his life. with everyone else he's putting words in their mouths about what they think of him, and rook is the one who actually gets to come in to speak their own words to him — and have him listen. ('he'll listen to you, he always listens to you', 'your voice is a comfort'.) of course rook isn't present anywhere else in there — at the risk of stating the obvious to a tedious degree, they aren't one of the locks, they're bringing the key. in the very finest 'the messenger and the message' sort of way.

[lunian]

I will try to describe why its also crucial to help Minrathous but, YES, Veilguard just failed to show it.

There are two scenarios - Blighted Treviso where you visually see in all details the consequences: corpses, suffering ill people everywhere, red skies, blighted waters and plants in any places etc etc, very grim. But also Treviso doesn't really cut much of content and makes even new quests or alternative ones, only Lucanis' story suffers it.

Then Minrathous where they failed to show it equally visually bad - you see hanged up Dragons and their supporters (tho you cant even say if all those people actually helped Dragons by any means) which is also terrible picture but thats all. Non-saved Minrathous doesn’t have additional quests to free people from Venatori or you don’t see any other new scenes of people suffering from this regime, like they made you see Crows and others suffering from the Blight. They cut you out from Shadow Dragons and all their allies, Neve's quest is also limited more, Ashur is doomed (also strong political figure aka BLACK DIVINE), you don't help to get rid of corrupted templars etc

It makes sense that Minrathous handled it better to survive an attack and not to be blighted like Treviso, BUT POLITICALLY it suffers greatly, even worse than before. This game wiped out the biggest problems of this country, just "trust me bro, there are many slaves lol". Now it has literal fasc*sts in power, by all means. Its not just "corruption", Antiva is also a corrupted country after all (where Crows are the only military force which is ridiculous, also considering that canonically they also had slaves but again, the game made them like a fun mafia family)

When a war with gods ends, thats where new problem starts - Tevinter is gonna be one of the strongest countries left. Ferendel and Orlais were doomed, what you see in Treviso is probably what happened in most of places there. We all know what it is when such terrible power and nationalist cults take over a strong country, like in real life *coughs*. Plus their war with Qunari can even worsen the situation. Venatori are everywhere anyway (since Inquisition) so what's gonna happen if they get military and political power of Tevinter? I don't take DATV ending with archon Dorian seriously because he just can't fight it with so little power of slaughtered Shadow Dragons.

Many people save Treviso also because as if Minrathous doesn't deserve help, like bad magisters and all. But this country lives on slaves (who can be both kidnapped people from other lands or their own citizens who sold themselves out of desperation) so the question is... most of people like average mages, soporati and slaves are not innocents who deserve life, they don't deserve to be saved from Venatori who see them as a dirt and material for blood rituals? (Hello, Bellara, who cried about innocents of Treviso)

Sure, many things I say right now are my own thoughts based on experience from previous games and what I know of Tevinter in general, because Veilguard ACTUALLY doesnt make those problems equally bad as it had to - deadly plague or scary oppresive political regime of cultists.

It had to be up to a player to believe what they think is worse but narrative punishes Minrathous more (if you save it then watch horrors of Treviso but if you didnt it then lol whatever, dont worry about this place bc theres not much to do anymore).

That's very cool and dramatic but saying it to Shadow Dragon Rook was definetely more losing situation in this argument:

Mercar: Vishante kaffas, save your speech for others, I ran to save MY OWN CITY, YOU CRETIN

[lunarharp]

forgot i had some old backlog or whatever..

[sternentreue]

Imagine your canon Warden, Hawke, Inquisitor and Rook and their respective LI on a quadruple date - how will it go?